Talk:Christianity

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Before July 2003 More old debate

Error in Criticism of Christianity section

Under the subtitle "Criticism of Christianity" it is claimed:

"Karl Marx was also highly critical of Christianity and argued that it is detrimental to progress because it "protects the weak", while society needs strong people to flourish." Citation number 297.

Firstly, this is a false statement. Secondly, it misrepresents the cited text. If you actually read the cited text it says this was the position of Nietzsche — a different German philosopher (already mentioned in the same paragraph) — not Marx.

To make accurate, the line should be changed to "Karl Marx was also highly critical of Christianity and argued that religion acted as an opium to keep the working class oppressed" (or something similar).

82.32.4.244 (talk) 22:57, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree- characterising Marx's criticism of Christianity as being rooted in it's "protection of the weak" is insufficient, and fits in much more closely with Nietzsche. Some kind of reference to Christianity being the handmaiden of feudalism or the opium of the people would be more appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.225.130.206 (talk) 09:27, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Those mentioned people are not the only critics of Christianity, there are far more, and there are more and more of them as time passes. They mostly state out contradictions within the Bible or stolen material from other centuries or thousands of years older religions. Such author is T.W. Doane in his book: "Bible Myths and their Parallels in other Religions". Far more examples can be seen on the page Exposing Christianity: http://see_the_truth.webs.com/ It can all be added in criticism section and this last link can be added to external links or something. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doubt Instigator (talk • contribs) 12:21, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Criticism sections are discouraged, so ideally, the section would be phased out, not expanded on.

Also, if you have a reliable source (which Doane is not), then we can talk, but truth be told, much of what you espouse here is not in the article because they are extremely fringe ideas with, frankly, no basis in fact whatsoever.Farsight001 (talk) 17:42, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the Karl Marx sentence because it is obviously a blatant misrepresentation of the source. Editors are welcome to reinsert mentioning of Karl Marx's criticism of Christianity, it is certainly noteworthy, but please make sure it corresponds to the sources. --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:38, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

"Christianity in brief" section

I just edited the "Christianity in brief" section, improving it slightly. However the section is only a few sentences long and seems rather redundant, so I believe that it should be deleted since all the information it contains is included in the article. I am a beginner Wikipedia editor however, so I would prefer if someone more experienced examine the section and decide what to do with it.

Vgp0012 (talk) 08:56, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

You're right. It was badly written as well as unnecessary. Deleted Jainsworth16 (talk) 09:53, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

The social context of the foundations of Christianity.

There does not seem to be any reference on this Christianity page to the social and historical context of the beginnings of Christianity. The oppression of Roman slavery and the creation of numerous religious cults, including Christianity, as defences against this oppression, are not mentioned.

I think the Christianity page would benefit from a section on the social context of the beginnings of Christianity. There's an excellent book by the marxist historian Karl Kautsky called "The Foundations of Christianity" which is, in my view, the most thorough explanation of the subject, yet there is no mention of it on the Christianity page. It is not even referenced for "further reading".

Without a philosophical aspect to this page, there is a danger that it comes across as being one of religious propaganda rather than a more "objective" account of Christianity. John Rogan (talk) 11:33, 8 September 2012 (UTC)John Rogan 8.9.2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by John Rogan (talk • contribs) 11:00, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

"an [important?] role in shaping of Western civilization"

The text above in its present form can be found in the lead. However, previous revisions of this article read "Christianity has been an important part of the shaping of Western civilization, at least since the 4th century."[1]

I believe the former revision is more appropriate. Simply stating that Christianity has played "a role" diminishes this importance and the sentence might as well be removed; many things can be played "a role" in shaping Western civilizations, but Christianity played perhaps the most important role. The citations referenced clearly stress the importance of the role of Christianity, e.g. '"Western civilization is also sometimes described as "Christian" or "Judaeo- Christian" civilization."'

I'm not proposing that the former text should be reinstated entirely, but just that the word "important" should be inserted. To me this edit seems fairly uncontroversial, but with an article as important and heavily-edited as this one I thought I should explain first and see if anybody objects for whatever reason. --Peter ^{Talk to me} 00:11, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Since there has been no reply, I'd gone ahead and made the small change of adding "prominent", rather than important.--Peter ^{Talk to me} 19:04, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

christanity is a religon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.8.228.249 (talk) 16:23, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 27 September 2012

Jesus is not fully human, he is also the Holy Spirit, along with his Father, Jehovah. I know this because i am christian, and it is worldwide known. Tobybriant (talk) 03:35, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

This isn't really a coherent request. Also, 99.999% of Christians in fact do believe that Jesus is fully human, AND fully God, so it really would be incorrect to say otherwise. Don't worry about it. A lot of the editors here are Christians. They know what they're doing.Farsight001 (talk) 04:17, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

I think we'll need consensus for that - which is unlikely in this case, given that so many people have so many different opinions. Closing. A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 14:36, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit Request ##

The first sentence in the second paragraph of the lead states: "The mainstream Christian belief is that Jesus is the Son of God, fully divine and fully human and the saviour of humanity." I would like to request two changes. First, I think it is unnecessary and wordy to include the phrase "mainstream christian belief", and instead I believe we should put "Christians believe". The bible (Jesus himself) states that he is fully human and fully divine. Anyone who doesn't believe this would be selectively ignoring things that Jesus said about himself and entire portions of the bible, inherently making them not Christians; so it would be a fallacy to say it is "mainstream" as if there can be Christians that don't believe that. Secondly, it should be spelled savior, not saviour. --Jacksoncw (talk) 02:05, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

 Not done: We have to be entirely neutral. There are many nominally "Christian" groups who do not subscribe to those 'mainstream' Christian beliefs; Oneness Pentecostalism, the Oriental Orthodox Church and Jehovah's Witnesses. -- Peter ^{Talk to me} 11:36, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

 Done I fixed the British English Saviour since the majority of cited quotes actually use American English. ReformedArsenal (talk) 13:30, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Like I said, groups that ignore what Jesus said about himself as well as numerous verses of the bible outside of the Gospels are not Christians. To say that people can do that and still be considered Christian is ludicrous. I can believe that Mohammad is the prophet and allah is God but if I don't adhere to the 6 pillars of the muslim faith then I'm still not a muslim, whether I claim to be or not. Same with Christianity.--Jacksoncw (talk) 21:49, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

The nature of Christ and his relation to God has long been a major point of dispute in the early churches. Indeed, the 4 gospels have different christologies (with John being a particular outlier). This is in no way trivially obvious from the Bible. The orthodox position for Trinitarians was mostly hashed out (using fairly dirty politics) during the Council of Nicaea. Also see filioque, Homoousian. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:12, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

The scripture clearly states that Jesus was both God and Man. John 20:28 "Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!'". Luke 24:39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” Mark 15:39 "When the centurion, who was standing right in front of Him, saw the way He breathed His last, he said, 'Truly this man was the Son of God!'" Philippians 2:5-8 “Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”--Jacksoncw (talk) 23:24, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

That may be the interpretation you are used to, but it is in no way the only interpretation. As an example, in John 20:28, it's Thomas, who makes this statement, not Jesus. Tomas is a very fallible human. Similar for Mark 15:39, which reports on a Roman centurion. I don't know any Greek, but the translations of Philippians 2:5-8 are all over the place, and none of them makes particular sense to me. This is why we don't use primary sources if they need interpretation. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:42, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I will try to find a copy of the bible in original Greek, and then translate it and renew this request. Although I think you are just being facetious.--Jacksoncw (talk) 02:19, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry if I was unclear. Any Bible version is a primary source on this issue. Maybe the annotations in a modern scholarly edition could be used as source, but not the Bible itself. Note that many different strains of Christianity, even trinitarian ones, do interpret different parts of the Bible differently. Per WP:NPOV, we must reflect all significant point of views, and there are significant religious groups who consider themselves to be Christian, who are considered by mainstream academia as Christians, and who have non-trinitarian Christologies. If you don't want the article to reflect your view, you would need very strong secondary sources making that point. I honestly doubt that sources sufficient to accept your narrow definition of Christianity as the only notable point of view exist. Remember Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:58, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

To explain in a way that may make more sense to Jacksoncw: while your interpretation of the Bible may be reasonable or even the only reasonable one, many other people believe different things, and wikipedia documents what people believe. It's not our job to figure out if the people who call themselves Christians have beliefs that fit Christian scriptures, it's our job to document what people who call themselves Christians believe, whether those beliefs are reasonable or not. This cuts both way: just as we don't ignore Christians whose views we consider unreasonable, atheists on the wiki cannot ignore Christians whose views they consider unreasonable. We document what the sources say, whether we agree with the sources or not. Where the sources are in conflict, we document both sides, keeping very carefully to NPOV and Due Weight. -- LWG ^talk 13:49, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Suggested Redirect

I suggest we have this page redirect to "mythology" to fit with encyclopaedic conventions.