Talk:Juan Manuel de Rosas

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Who is the most knowledgeable and well known historian over this topic?

I will find out for you, since this article is terrible and in need of much work on economic/social/historic background, and made mostly on biased comments by his opponents, the "unitarios" (as Sarmiento). The power of Rosas cannot be explained solely by saying he had a lot of cattle and had a strong personality that appealed the gauchos. There are also other inaccuracies. I will list them in terrible order also, since I'm not used to work in Wikipedia and not used to your customs and rigour standards.

1.- He didn't control the whole of the pampa cattle frontier, if you consider that it was distributed in different provincies and amongst different "estancieros" or large ranch owners. 2.- Can't tell which European expeditionary forces he defeated. This is doubtful. He did battle an Anglo-French force that tried to establish free navigation of the Paranà river (and free trade), but the battery that tried to stop the ships was defeated ("Vuelta de Obligado"). When I say defeated I mean that they couldn't fulfil its objective: stopping the ships. 3.- Besides the term "nation" applied to what at that time was a confederation of provincies with loose political ties (there was not even a Constitution accepted by all), Rosas could not be defined as a "dictator" for all the provincies. It's a bit more complex. He was indeed the more powerful caudillo, but he was not the only one. He was only in charge of relationships with other countries, and had no formal power over the other provincies and caudillos -even if, informally, he was the puppet-master. To reach to that position, he had to fight unitarios and federales (his "own" "party"/or faction - even if he was not very "federal" himself), and -probably- kill other caudillos, as Facundo Quiroga. 3.- "Rosas attempted to reincorporate Uruguay and Paraguay as Argentinean provinces..." This is inaccurate. The "Pronunciamiento de Urquiza", the act by which Urquiza, Entre Rìos "caudillo", declared its intentions of owerthrowing Rosas, was triggered by other political events, but mostly by Urquiza's intention of liberating its trade with Brazil and foreign powers in certain goods for its own profit. Also, the puny "unitario" force in Montevideo could hardly represent a problem for Rosas, even if he besieged through allies and own forces the city for a long time before. There are specific economic reasons that can explain the rise and fall or Rosas ("saladero" cycle and new agricultural/pecuarian cycles rising at his fall) that can better explain this. Britain was a major player in all this period, trying to find a valuable associate in the pampas to introduce its industrial goods and buy cattle and grain, and Rosas was not the correct person for doing this at that time. 4.- "Rosas wanted to rid Argentina of European influence and cultivate a feeling of nationalism among Argentinians..." Well, in fact commerce with European powers thrived in some periods under Rosas, so we can hardly say that he wanted to "rid" Argentina of their influence. European businessmen were established in Buenos Aires and were influent during periods of Rosas government

I really need more reading on the subject, but I'll try to help with a new article for this guy, who influenced the "country"'s life for a good buch of years. FLRD

Something that must be told

I just wanted to tell that this was the most ridiculously hilarious excuse to revert someone else's edit I've seen to this day on Wikipedia. No wonder this article sucks. --Lecen (talk) 14:35, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I wonder by what criteria it's called "iconic"? Arguably, the picture on the money would be the most "iconic". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

<sigh> Go and see the 20$ banknotes, the monument in Palermo, the monument in Vuelta de Obligado, the tomb in La Recoleta, the portrait at the hall of Latin American heroes at the Casa Rosada, the cover of "Todo es Historia" in the issue about Rosas, the cover of most books about Rosas... or just a basic google image search of the terms "Juan Manuel de Rosas". Everywhere it is either the portrait by Gaetano Descalzi or a derivative work of it. It is easier to invert the question: by what criteria can you deny that it is iconic? Cambalachero (talk) 01:52, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

The current picture looks fairly much like the one on the money. The one Lecen had posted doesn't even look like the same guy. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:14, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Removal of soruced content

I know that Cambalachero is engaged in a fierce quest to whitewash Argentine history, turning good people into bad, and bad into good. Having said, I want to make clear that I will oppose any GA or FA nomination of this article. --Lecen (talk) 22:18, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

He didn't fight the British. He was an ammunition boy. He also didn't fight with the Migueletes. He was part of that cavalry corps but was sick during the entire conflict. Anyone who had actually read a single biography of Rosas would have known that. But someone who uses a website as source... I wonder if you will include Rosas' monarchism too. Because he was a monarchist and his daughter was acclaimed his heiress. Not only that but he wanted to annex Uruguay and Paraguay and create an Empire in the Plata. What about the fact that he opposed the "May Revolution"? Will that be mentioned too? Whitewashing, whitewashing... --Lecen (talk) 22:30, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

A thread has been opened at the Dispute resolution noticeboard

A thread regarding this article's lack of neutrality and wrong view of historical facts has been opened at the Dispute resolution noticeboard. The link is here. --Lecen (talk) 21:07, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

About the lack of neutrality, the biased view and arbitrary choice of facts added into this article

I created this thread with the purpose of reviewing the article and reveal all serious issues in it.

Sources

The best source in English about the life of Juan Manuel de Rosas is John Lynch's Argentine Caudillo: Juan Manuel de Rosas. This is the second edition of his biography and it was published in 2001. The first edition is called Argentine Dictator: Juan Manuel de Rosas and was published in 1981. It is regarded as the "definitive" biography of Rosas by Encyclopædia Britannica.[1] Hugh M. Hamill called it an "[a]lready classic biography of Argentina's most significant caudillo."[2] Daniel K. Lewis regarded it "[a]n outstanding work on the dictator and his historical significance".[3] Michael Goebel said that it is "a classic work about Rosas in English".[4]

No matter what edition you look after, both are universally used as main sources regarding Rosas in English-written books.

We do not need to stick to sources written in English when they are outdated merely because they are in English. See Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English sources, Wikipedia:Systemic bias and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Cost. The historiography of Rosas is a topic in itself, with books about that specific topic, and none of them considered Lynch even worth a single mention. Cambalachero (talk) 02:28, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Dictatorship

According to Cambalachero (also known as MBelgrano), the main contributor in this article, (see article's lead) "Argentine historians of the XIX century, such as Bartolomé Mitre, aligned with the Unitarian party, considered him a ruthless dictator" while "New historians of the XX century, such as José María Rosa, consider him instead a defender of national sovereignty". And he concludes: "historiographical dispute about Rosas is currently considered to be over, and most modern historians do not engage in it". In other words: only historians connected to Rosas' opposition regarded him a dictator, and that only in the 19th century. Since the 20th century he is no longer regarded a dictator and there is no doubt or dispute about it any longer. Wrong.

Every single work in English regards him a dictator. From Britannica ("...who was governor (1835–52) of Buenos Aires with dictatorial powers") to Lynch's Argentine Caudillo[5] and several other works which were conveniently removed by Cambalachero from this article.[6]

Even Rosas saw himself as a dictator. The title he gave for himself was "Tirano ungido por Dios para salvar a la patria" ("Tyrant anointed by God to save the Fatherland").[7][8] He said once: "I have always admired autocratic dictators who have been the first servants of their people. That is my great title: I have always sought to serve the contry". (Lynch, 2001, p.163) He regarded the dictatorship as best form of government: "For me the ideal of good government would be paternal autocracy, intelligent, desinterested and indefatigable..." (Lynch, 2001, p.75) A passage of Lynch's books is revealing: "In short, Rosas ws an absolute ruler. 'As he told himself', remarked the British minister Southern, 'he wields a power more absolute than any monarch on his throne.'" (Lynch, 2001, p.82)

It is not me who says that the dispute is over: it is the references, left at the respective section. Horacio González is more than just a simple author of the lot, he is the president of the National Library of the Argentine Republic. If he says that there was a paradigm shift in the way Rosas is considered, it is a voice to be heard. The current consensus means that modern historians do not explain the actions of Rosas based on personal impulses (such as evil, greed, hunger for power; or patriotism, loyalty), but on actual poltical contexts of the time. The Great Man theory is rapidly getting outdated everywhere, and it already did for Rosas in Argentina. The old manichaeisms are outdated. There may be an occational exception, but the body of the Argentine historians have left that stage long ago.

Are there books that use the word "dictator" to talk about Rosas? Perhaps. We shouldn't use a word merely because the usage is verifiable: we also have a rule to avoid Words that may introduce bias. If there is a dispute, we describe the dispute, we do not engage in it. Note as well that sources that make a mere use of a word in passing, without explaining the usage, do not count as "engaging" in the dispute. Cambalachero (talk) 02:53, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Elected governor or dictator?

This article, as written by Cambalachero, presents the idea that was en elected governor and that he was granted the "Sum of public power" (that is, the power to rule as dictaror) by a popular plebiscite where "[e]very free man within the age of majority living in the city was allowed to vote" (see "second government" section).

First let's talk about elections in Argentina and the role of the House of Representatives: "The House of Representatives remained a creature of the governor, whom it formally 'elected'. It was his custom to send his resignation to the House from time to time. It was never accepted, for the House of Representatives represented only the regime ... The assembly, lacking for the most part legislative function and financial control, was largely an exercise in public relations for the benefit of foreign and doemstic audiences, and it normally responded obsequiously to the iniatives of the governor." (Lynch, 2001, p.81)

What about Judicial branch? Let's see: "Rosas not only controlled the legislature but also dominated the judicial power. He not only made law; he interpreted it, changed it, and applied it. The machinery of justice no doubt continued to function: the justices of peace, judges for civil and criminal cases, the appeal judge, and the supreme court all gave institutional legitimacy to the regime. But the law did not rule. Arbitrary intervention by the execute undermined the independence of the judiciary. Rosas took many cases on himself, read the evidence..., examined the police reports, and, as he sat alone at his desk, gave judgment, writing on files 'shoot him', 'fine him', imprison him,' 'to the army'." (Lynch, 2001, p.81)

And the bureaucracy? "Rosas also controlled the bureaucracy. One of his first and most uncompromising measures was to purge the old administration; this action was the simplest way of removing political enemies and rewarding followers". (Lynch, 2001, p.82)

Rosas could rule over Buenos Aires province, but not over the rest of the Argentine provinces. Not at first, it's true. "The system of government Rosas and his colleagues operated was primitive in the extreme and completely lacked a constitutional framework. They did not govern Argentina. The thirteen provinces governed themselves independently, though they were grouped in the general Confederation of the United Provinces of the Río de la Plata. Even without formal union, however, the provinces were forced to delegate certain common itnerests to the government of Buenos Aires, mainly defense and foreign policy..." (Lynch, 2001, p.82) However, as time passed, "[h]is policy was to wear down the provincial caudillos [the rulers of the Argentine provinces], to conquer them by patience. In each of the provinces, he managed gradually to impose allied, satellite, or weak governors." (Lynch, 2001, p.83)

Ah, the myth of the "fake" resignations. I have seen that explanation sometimes, and I always noted a missing point in it: which was the purpose? If Rosas' power was so absolute, and he did not had the intention to resign, why bother with that charade at all? Ah, yes, of course he purged the old administration. Does Lynch give more detail about that "old administration" that he purged? No? It was the administration of Juan Lavalle, who took power by a military coup, executed the deposed governor Manuel Dorrego, and purged the old administration. Rosas purged Lavalle's men, and restored the administration that was ruling before the coup. That's how he got the nickname "The restorer of laws" in the first place.

The last paragraph is clearly faulty. The lack of a constitution does not mean there was no formal union: the provinces were still united by provincial pacts. That state of things was not created by Rosas, it predates his first term as governor. The provinces were not "forced" into it, and note that managing the foreign relations includes the payment of the external debt in the package. The provinces did not "delegate" their defense in Buenos Aires, it was a mutual defensive alliance. If any member of the Federal Pact was attacked, the other members would go to the defense. This benefits Buenos Aires (if attacked, it has allies), but also gave obligations (if other provinces are attacked, Buenos Aires must go to help) Cambalachero (talk) 03:20, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Cambalachero, you should once and for all really stop handpicking the information that better suits your needs. "Rivadavia resigned, leaving to his successor Manuel Dorrego the tasks of arranging the peace with Brazil and restoring domestic order. Dorrego went further. He nullified the centralist constitution, reaffirmed provincial autonomy, and assumed the title of governor of Buenos Aires. Returning Unitarian troops overthrew and executed Dorrego soon afterward. His death set off a chain reaction ending with a new rebellion by Federalist landowners. The leader of this uprising was Juan Manuel de Rosas (1793-1877) ... Rosas effectively crushed the Unitarians in Buenos Aires." (Source: Whigham, Thomas L. The Paraguayan War: causes and early conduct. v.1. Lincoln, Nebraska: University of Nebraska Press, 2002, p.51) Thus, it's no surprise that the Unitarians fought a men who simply threw the constitution into the trash. Now, the same books says soon after: "In Buenos Aires, demanded and received dictatorial powers (la suma de poder público). Any educated man who henceforth thought to dissent risked being daggered by agents of his political police, the Mazorca." (Whigham, 2002, p.53) Every single source mentions that Rosas was a dictator and that he had a death squad called the Mazorca. Except, of course, for Cambalachero's sources. --Lecen (talk) 17:31, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Dorrego did not nullify the national constitution. Stop to think about that for a moment: can a governor of a province, or even a president, nullify a constitution? No: the 1826 constitution was nullified by the only authority who could do so: the Constituent Assembly. After Rivadavia's resignation, Vicente López led a brief interim, and returned the national organization to the confederal state from before the assembly, leaving instructions to call a new constituent assembly (source: "Julio César Furundarena, "Historia Constitucional Argentina", p.290-292). By the way, Whigham forgot to mention that the 1826 constitution was rejected in all the other provinces, you can't blame a single man of Buenos Aires, or even a local movement in the province, for the failure of it (but perhaps Whigham does not go to great detail anyway because his work is about a conflict that took place half a century afterwards). And another detail: you imply that Lavalle led a coup against Dorrego because of the fate of the 1826 constitution. Then why didn't he restore it, or nullify the nullification, in the half a year he ruled the province? Cambalachero (talk) 01:04, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Elections under Rosas

"The system was a fraud and a farce: the government sent a list of official candidates, and it was the task of the justices of the peace to ensure that these were elected. Open and verbal voting, the rights of the justices to exclude voters and candidates whom they considered unqualified, the intimidation of opposition; these and many other malpractices reduced the elections to absurdity. Rosas frankly admited that elections had to be controlled, and he condemned as hypocricy the demand for free elections. His government, he told the assembly [the House of Representatives] in 1837, 'has sent many worthy residents and magistrates throughout the province lists which contained the names of those citizens who in its opinion were fit to represent the rights of their country, in order to favor their election, if so they wished.' In practice the Rosas lists were an absolute order, and those gauchos [the Argentine peasantry] who went to the polls did as voting fodder." (Lynch, 2001, p.50)

No, finally, let's talk about the plebiscite where the Argentines willing (or was it?) allowed Rosas to become a dictator: "The plebiscite was held on March 26-28 in the parishes of Buenos Aires city, and the electorate had to vote yes or no for the projected law... First, the plebiscite was held only in Buenos Aires city... Second, whereas normally only a few hundred people voted at elections, this time greater numbers participated. The result was 9,316 for the new law, 4 against. If we assume a population of some 60,000 in Buenos Aires and a voting population of 20,000, Rosas received a vote of 50 percent of the electorate, and even this portion urged to the polls by a mixture of official propaganda and pressure from activists. The menace exerted by Rosas' political machine was real enough, as shall be seen. For this reason the heavy abstentions were significant; to abstain was a positive and dangerous act, and for many people a militant one. Rosas never repeated the experiment." (Lynch, 2001, p.80)

And Sarmiento (who can never be accused of supporting Rosas) said "No se tiene noticia de ciudadano alguno que no fuese a votar... debo decirlo en obsequio a la verdad histórica: nunca hubo gobierno más popular, más deseado, ni más bien sostenido por la opinión" ("there is no information about any citizen that did not vote... I must say it as a gft to historical truth: there was never a government more popular, desired and better held by the opinion") Cambalachero (talk) 03:26, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Interesting, Lynch's text seems like a plagiarism of "De la revolución de independencia a la confederación rosista" by Tulio Halperin Donghi, p. 330. And worse, a plagiarism that conveniently forgets a detail added by Donghi: the "experiment" was the conditions of the election, not the elections themselves, which were not cancelled. Cambalachero (talk) 02:25, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

State terrorism

Rosas was not merely a dictator, but he ruled with terror. The words "Terror", "Terrorism" and "Terrorist" have been often used to describe his regime, his practices and himself (and his allies). There is an entire chapter in John Lynch's work aptly called "The Terror" that goes from page 95 until page 119. Theodore Link and Rose McCarthy said that "Rosas brutally repressed any opponents. His spies, the police, and the military led a reign of terror. He had housands tortured and killed and many people fled the country."[9] David Marley said that "Juan Manuel de Rosas returns to the governorship of Buenos Aires, establishing a terrorist dictatorship..."[10] James Schofield Saeger said that "[t]rhough his terrorist organization, the Mazorca, Rosas made himself master of the country."[11] James D Henderson said that "The blocaked damaged the Buenos Aires economy and gave Rosas justification for a wave of terror against his domestic foes."[12] Jason Wilson said that "Juan Manuel de Rosas (sometimes spelt Rozas), the rich and well-bred landowner who became dictator of Buenos Aires and ruled with terror, lived..."[13] Carlos Ramirez-Faria said that "Juan Manuel de Rosas pacified and centralized the country through a liberal use of terrorist methods."[14]

Rosas could be pleasant and charming when needed, but according to John Lynch, "he was a hard taskmaster and could suddenly fly into a rage and emit threats of throat cutting like the vilest of his henchmen." (Lynch, 2001, p.86) But what was the Terror? This article mentions the Mazorca only twice. The Mazorca, or officially, the Sociedad Popular Restauradora, was the paramilitary wing of Rosas' regime. It was the equivalent to Fascist Italy's Blackshirts and Nazi Germany's SS. According to the article here at Wikipedia (unsurprisingly created and written by Cambalachero) about it, the Sociedad Popular Restauradora (or Mazorca) killed "nearly 20 in 1840 and 20 more in 1842." They actually executed around 2,000 people, if not more, from 1829 until 1852. (Lynch, 2001, p.118) There is no mention of the thousands of political executions and tortured people in this article about Rosas.

And now the contradictions begin. The Mazorca made Rosas the master of the country? You have cited before that each province managed its own affairs, with some exceptions such as foreign relations. Police force was not among those exceptions. The 20 and 20 are the cases which actually have documentary support. The idea of the Mazorca leading an ordeal of executions during all days of all the Rosas regime was mentioned a lot in the past, but fails to locate any actual documentary support. Note that Lynch speaks of actions of the Mazorca "from 1829 to 1852", but actually that organization was created in 1833 and disbanded in 1846. Which suggest that Lynch merely repeats misconceptions he read somewhere else, instead of investigating them himself (as any serious historian, not a mere divulgator, would do) Cambalachero (talk) 03:40, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Expansionist plans

Rosas wished to annex Argentine neighbors, Paraguay and Uruguay. This was said by Paraguayan historian Cecilo Baez (Bosquejo historico del Brasil. Assuncion: La Colmena, 1940, p.75: "Para Rosas, Paraguay y Uruguay no eran sino provincias rebeldes de la Confederacion Argentina") and even by Argentine revisionist (that is, pro-Rosas) Pacho O'Donnel (Juan Manuel de Rosas: El maldito de la historia oficial. Buenos Aires: NORMA, 2008, p.300). John Lynch, on the other hand, believed that Rosas wanted to annex Paraguay and keep Uruguay as client state (Lynch, 2001, p.140): "Rosas had never recoginzed Paraguaya as an independent nation. He still called it the província del Paraguay and sought its 'recovery', aiming to extend the frontiers of the confederation to those of the old Spanish viceroyalty. Uruguay was an exception because its independence had been secured by treaty and its conquest would be extremely difficult. So it was improbable that Rosas wished to destroy the independence of Uruguay; it suited him better to reduce it to satellitle status, the natural destiny of a weaker neighbor."

There is not a single mention of any of this in this article.

Paraguay was an Argentne province until 1842, when it declared its independence. Rosas did not accept it, but it is incorrect to to say that he wanted to "annex" Paraguay, same as Spain did not want to "annex" its South American colonies, nor Brazil wanted to "annex" the Riograndese Republic. As for Uruguay, Rosas does not need motivations: it was Fructuoso Rivera who declared war to Argentina, so Rosas waged the war against him (and against others that may ally with him in such conflict) until the end of the conflict. Cambalachero (talk) 03:55, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

See the Declaration of war to Bolivia, 4º declaration, pages 4 and 5. "That the Argentine Confederation, in the fight it has been provoked into, holds no territorial pretension beyond its natural borders, and protests in the presence of the universe and for the posterity that it takes weapons to save the integrity, independence and honour of the Argentine Confederation". In fact, Felipe Heredia, governor of Salta, requested to Rosas to include the reannexation of Tarija (Ruiz Moreno, p. 69), but as you can see, he declined it. Cambalachero (talk) 00:18, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Platine War

The international war between the Argentine Confederation and an alliance of the Empire of Brazil, Uruguay and the Argentine provinces of Corrientes and Entre Ríos is not even mentioned in here. In fact, Brazil's role is oddly downplayed: "Without ships, Urquiza sought the help of the Empire of Brazil as well. However, he thought that the Brazilian help would be of little use, and only agreed to accept them by the intervention of Herrera" and "...where Entre Ríos and Corrientes would lead the operation and Uruguay and Brazil would provide only auxiliar armies. Urquiza defeated Rosas in the Battle of Caseros, on February 3, 1852".

Actually, Rosas himself regarded Brazil as the main enemy and as the key player that led to his downfall. "Rosas had at that point [1851] a preoccupation and obsession: the Empire of Brazil" ("Rosas tenía en aquel momento una preocupación y una obsesión: el imperio del Brasil." (O'Donnel, 2008, p.300) Also important: "Rosas himself believed that he had been defeated not by the [Argentine] people but by foreigners. He asserted after [the Battle of] Caseros, 'It is not the people who have overthrown me. It is the macocos ["monkeys", a racist nod to Black Brazilians], the Brazilians." (Lynch, 2001, p.159)

The article also ignores that 12,000 Brazilians were about to invade Argentina when Rosas unexpectedly gave up after a single battle of that the Brazilian warships were blockading Buenos Aires.

Those opinions of Rosas are mere political analysis. If the article says that Entre Ríos and Corrientes led the operations and Uruguay and Brazil would provide only auxiliar armies, it is because the written text of the alliance between the four specifically arranged the command structure that way. The idea that it was actually a fight against Brazil, despite being mentioned by some revisionists, never got much hold. After all, this "war" does not even have a Spanish name! And, as once pointed in the talk page, only 50 English books talk about a "Platine war". I will also mention that the author of the book used as a reference of that section is a member of the National Academy of History of Argentina Cambalachero (talk) 04:09, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The text of treaty is detailed here. See article 2: "Under the above statement the states of Entre Rios and Corrientes take the lead of the operations of the war, becoming principal part in it, and the Empire of Brazil and the Oriental Republic will work for the swift and better success end we all seek as mere auxiliaries." Cambalachero (talk) 12:45, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

If you had actually read something about the war you would know the reason for Brazil be placed in the treaty as an "auxiliary". The first and most important reason was to give the legal appearance that the conflict was a mere civil war, and not a full international war, thus preventing Great Britain from finding an excuse to intervene. Even though, it is good to remember, that the Argentine Confederation had declared war on the Empire of Brazil. The second reason, as told by Honório Hermeto Carneiro Leão, Marquis of Paraná, the Brazilian plenipotentiary, was "como medida política em relação às suscetibilidades do nacionalismo castelhano" (as a political measure regarding susceptibilities of the Castilian [Argentine] nationalism [pride]). Source: Sousa, José Antônio Soares de. Honório Hermeto no Rio da Prata: missão especial de 1851/52. São Paulo: Editora Nacional, 1959, pp. 23-27 (chapter O Convênio de 21 de Novembro de 1851; The Agreement of 21 November 1851). The book is entirely devoted to the diplomatic side of the conflict. That's the greatest difference between you and I, Cambalachero. I actually have knowledge of the subject under discussion. I read about it, I studied it. I have sources. --Lecen (talk) 13:18, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Legacy

Cambalachero said in another thread: "Which proves that, unlike Hitler, positive views of Rosas are not at all a tiny minority, and are even sponsored by the Argentine state." Is this true? Let's see. The American historian William Dusemberry, in his article to The Hispanic American Historical Review, dated 1961, wrote: "Rosas is a negative memory in Argentina. He left behind him the black legend of Argentine history-a legend which Argentines in general wish to forget. There is no monument to him in the entire nation; no park, plaza, or street bears his name."[15]

What happened since 1961, then? When Rosas became, in the words of Cambalachero, someone whom many have a "positive view" and who is "even sponsored by the Argentine state"? The answer lies in another book written in English, Lyman L. Johnson's Death, Dismemberment, And Memory: Body Politics In Latin America. Let's see:

"Rosas supportes worked relentlessly... to repatriate their hero. They were aided by the growth in the 1920s and 1930s of the revisionist school of historiography that worked to rehabilitate Rosas' regime... Revisionists naturally focused on Rosas's strong suit as defender of national sovereignty... Also in the 1930s, the Pro-Repatriation of Rosas Committee was established, and by the 1960s it had become quite active, even seeking the aid of exiled former president Juan D. Perón. An ardent admirer of Rosas, Juan Perón, along with his wife Evita, had governed Argentina from 1946 to 1955, when he was ousted by a military coup... Perón was, in many ways, similar to Juan Manuel [de Rosas]: a military background, a popular base of power, strong nationalist sentiments, a life of exile...; and denigrated memory in the official histories of the nation... When Perón returned to office again in 1973, after nearly twenty years of exile, he appointed ... ambassador to England and gave him two specific charges... repatriate the remains of Juan Manuel de Rosas... the new president, Dr. Carlos Saúl Menem, who took office in July 1989. Having served as the Peronist governor of the province of La Rioja, Menem... capitalized on the populist tradition of Peronism and effectively employed federalist symbols from the Rosas era... Menem wanted to redraw the Argentine genealogical family tree, to displace Mitre's gallery of celebrities with a more inclusive pantheon."

Thus, the revisionist Pro-Rosas became a pewerful force (if we could theme it in that way) in the 1930s wheh it became common in the Western world to support authoritarian regimes. It was a dictator like Perón who supported the revisionism. And it were Perón's followers (the Peronism) like Menem and the Kirshner's couple that continued his struggle to rehabilitate a dictator like Rosas.

A good representation of how far-reaching is the goal of Cambalachero to whitewash Rosas' biography can be seen in the article Blood tables (created by Cambalachero and written by him). It is about a 19th century books about Rosas' executions. Cambalachero says in the lead: "The book was used as a primary source by the early historiography of Juan Manuel de Rosas; modern historians consider it biased, inaccurate and unreliable." The source used? Carlos Smith's Juan Manuel de Rosas ante la posteridad, a revisionist work.

Another fine example of how biased the articles relating to Rosas have become at Wikipedia is Historiography of Juan Manuel de Rosas.

What's happening in here is that Cambalachero is writing a series of articles through the view of a minority historical school with the purpose of following a political agenda. It's like someone else started working articles about Mussolini or about the Holocaust from the point of view of revisionists. And that's not how it's supposed to be. We could even add in a "Legacy" section something about the Revisionists, but not in the main body of text as it were a legitimate source. --Lecen (talk) 13:21, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Perón was revisionist himself, but did not promote revisionism from the government. In fact when he nationalized the railways, he named them... Urquiza, Sarmiento and Mitre. No, revisionism is not the artificial invention of some governor. It predates Perón (it began in the XIX century, in fact), and grew across governments of several different political lines. And better don't talk in Argentina about Menem and the Kirchners being the same thing, only antiperonists would fall into such simplification. In fact, the detail that the recognition to Rosas is shared by Menem and Kirchner, who hardly share anything else, is highly elocuent. Besides, Leopoldo Moreau of the UCR attends all the celebrations of the day of national sovereignthy. Is he, too, a "Perón follower"? Cambalachero (talk) 04:25, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. The lack of sources in any of them reveal how much you're biased by your own point of view. --Lecen (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm not at home right now, I'm a bit busy in the countdown to christmas, but there are books to back everything I said. You'll have them in some days. Cambalachero (talk) 12:28, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

As I have limited time right now, I will expand my answer here a bit (as it is the main topic that influence the others), and leave the other topics for later, when I have more time in real life. First of all, let's remember that historiography and public perception are different things: one takes place among scholars, and the other among society at large.

Let's begin with historiography. Clear mistakes. First, it speaks of historical revisionism as an unified thing, with an homogeneous political perspective over current (for its time) politics, and artificially promoted from the government. Not at all. As detailed and referenced in Historiography of Juan Manuel de Rosas#Peronism, revisionist historians (identified by name) had different political orientations: peronists, antiperonists, nonaligned, etc. Despite his personal ideas, Perón never made political proclamations on historiographical issues during his rule, and even eluded the topic in circumstances that would call for them. In fact, he removed revisionists from authority roles they had achieved during the military government of 1943 that predated him. If Peron's administration ever referenced history, it was with an inclusive angle, honouring national heroes that are universally acclaimed in the country as San Martín (and I already mentioned the nationalization of railways, and the names they got), or with a focus "the past is past, let's head for the future" rather than "we continue the work of X man from a century ago". On the other hand, most antiperonisms were against Rosas, and used such historical criticisms to pass indirect criticisms to Perón. Source: "Historia de la Historiografía Argentina" (Spanish: History of the historiography of Argentina), by Fernando Devoto, pages 268-271. As it is very long to quote (it's 4 whole pages), I scanned them and uploaded somewhere else here and here. Fernando Devoto is a teacher of historiography at the es:Facultad de Filosofía y Letras (Universidad de Buenos Aires).

The divergence of political ideas within revisionists is not limited to the Peronist period. It may be possible to point to several specific historians and detail their backgrounds, a work began at Historiography of Juan Manuel de Rosas, but t is easier to point the words of Horacio González here: "The Rosist historical revisionism, in its variants (republican conservative, ultramontane Apostolic Catholic nationalist, popular nationalist and left-wing nationalist), and its more or less documentary or divulgative styles, is a widely public force in public awareness and in the media. From being the second voice, never weak, of historical interpretations, it has become the first". Horacio González, as already said, is the president of the National Library of the Argentine Republic, not an author from the lot. Modern historians do not even care about the dsputes about Rosas, and consider it a settled issue. Felix Luna: "It can be said that today all relevant documentation concerning Rosas and his time is already published. It is not likely the discovery of papers that may change the judgments made ​​by the various historiographical trends. It is even possible to say that the issue of Rosas has lost interest for most Argentine historians." (Luna, Félix (2003). La época de Rosas. Buenos Aires: Grupo Editorial Planeta. ISBN 950-49-1116-1. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)). Pablo Mendelevich: "Appeased as today is the traditional dispute around the figure of Rosas, heated historical debate and thoughts have shifted to 1910". Note that "historians" means the bulk of Argentine historians who work in a steady way in historical investigations in the country; there can always be one or two writers who defy the consensus or sticks to outdated misconceptions. Specially foreign authors, if for their works they simply read what another author said and did not take the work to locate the documentary evidence and confirm things by themselves (something that would require them to travel to another country).

As for the public perception, it did not change thanks to peronism. On the contrary, it changed thanks to antiperonism. As mentioned, most antiperonists embraced the rejection to Rosas as an indirect way to embellish their opposition to Perón, drawing a parallelism between antirosism and themselves. Thus the quote of Lonardi after deposing Perón, "neither victors nor vanquished", the same quote (and not a coincidence, but a deliverate repeat) used by Urquiza after deposing Rosas. Not only was Perón deposed, but the whole Peronism was proscripted. Unlike Perón, who avoided the historical disputes, the new military governments made an extensive use of it for propaganda: Perón was the dictator and they were the saviors of the nation, same as Rosas was the dictator in the XIX century and the unitarians were the saviors of the nation. But for the people, who still supported the exiled Perón, the military were not saviors, that was clear. But instead of rejection the whole "May-Caseros-Libertadora" propaganda, they embraced it and changed the terms: yes, Perón was a new Rosas, and Lonardi a new Urquiza, but reversing who of them was the hero and who was the villain. Historical revisionism, which so far was limited to scholar discussions, found this way an entry into the perception of the main public. This is the answer for Lecen's "what happened since 1961?" question. Historica revisionism began already in the XIX century, but the change in the social perception of Rosas took place a long time later, during the peronist proscription (and not promoted by a government, but against a government's wishes). And even yet, Perón did not embrace it immediately, but after some time: in 1956, he compared the coup against him with the "Mazorca". So the change was led by Peronism as a social movement, not by Perón himself. Devoto, p. 278-279, here.

That's it for now, as I said I'm a bit busy. We will continue this later... unless the Mayan prophecy of the end of the world happens to be real, and the four horsemen cross the sky singing "Highway to hell" Cambalachero (talk) 15:43, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Third opinion

Hi. I'd be happy to help resolve this situation ... I'm coming here from the WP:3O page. Can both editors briefly restate (under this post) what the issue is (include sources & page numbers in the statement)? Cheers. --Noleander (talk) 01:08, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Neolander, thank you very much for having taken your time to dicuss this. The issue is quite simple: I believe that this article presents a whitewashed history of Juan Manuel de Rosas. He was a dictator, a brutal one, who ruled through terror and who had expansionist goals. This is not what I believe he was, that is what he called himself and that's how historians see him. Now let's see the main points:

1) What are the best sources about Rosas? The best source in English about the life of Juan Manuel de Rosas is John Lynch's Argentine Caudillo: Juan Manuel de Rosas. This is the second edition of his biography and it was published in 2001. The first edition is called Argentine Dictator: Juan Manuel de Rosas and was published in 1981. It is regarded as the "definitive" biography of Rosas by Encyclopædia Britannica.[16] Hugh M. Hamill called it an "[a]lready classic biography of Argentina's most significant caudillo."[17] Daniel K. Lewis regarded it "[a]n outstanding work on the dictator and his historical significance".[18] Michael Goebel said that it is "a classic work about Rosas in English".[19]

2) Rosas regarded himself a dictator:The title he gave for himself was "Tirano ungido por Dios para salvar a la patria" ("Tyrant anointed by God to save the Fatherland").[20][21] He said once: "I have always admired autocratic dictators who have been the first servants of their people. That is my great title: I have always sought to serve the contry". (Lynch, 2001, p.163) He regarded the dictatorship as best form of government: "For me the ideal of good government would be paternal autocracy, intelligent, desinterested and indefatigable..." (Lynch, 2001, p.75) A passage of Lynch's books is revealing: "In short, Rosas ws an absolute ruler. 'As he told himself', remarked the British minister Southern, 'he wields a power more absolute than any monarch on his throne.'" (Lynch, 2001, p.82)

3) State terrorism: Rosas ruled through terror. I know the word is strong but it's the one used by historians. See:

a) "Rosas used terror as an instrument of government to eliminate enemies..." (page 96) "Rosas was responsible for the terror: contemporaries affirmed it, and historians agree." (page 118) Source: Lynch, John. Argentine Caudillo: Juan Manuel de Rosas. 2 ed. Wilmington, Delaware: SR Books, 2001 ISBN 0-8420-2897-8

b) "Juan Manuel de Rosas (sometimes spelt Rozas), the rich and well-bred landowner who became dictator of Buenos Aires and ruled with terror, lived..." Source: [22]

c) "Juan Manuel de Rosas pacified and centralized the country through a liberal use of terrorist methods." Source: [23]

d) "The blockade damaged the Buenos Aires economy and gave Rosas justification for a wave of terror against his domestic foes." Source: [24]

e) "[t]rhough his terrorist organization, the Mazorca, Rosas made himself master of the country." Source: page 27 of Saeger, James Schofield. Francisco Solano López and the Ruination of Paraguay: Honor and Egocentrism. Estover Road, Plymoth: Rowman & Littlefield, 2007. ISBN 0-7425-3754-4

f) "Rosas brutally repressed any opponents. His spies, the police, and the military led a reign of terror. He had housands tortured and killed and many people fled the country." Source: page 27 of Link, Theodore; Rose McCarthy. Argentina: A Primary Source Cultural Guide. New York: The Rosen Publishing Group, 2004. ISBN 0-8239-3997-9

g) "Juan Manuel de Rosas returns to the governorship of Buenos Aires, establishing a terrorist dictatorship..." Source: page 487 of Marley, David. Wars of the Americas: A Chronology of Armed Conflict in the New World, 1492 to the Present. Santa Barbara, California: ABC-CLIO, 1998. ISBN 0-87436-837-5

h) "Rosas was re-elected as Governor on 13 April, this time with dictatorial powers ... Rosas would reign supreme in Argentina thereafter until the Battle of Caseros in 1852 creating a secret police force named the Mazorca which punished disloyalty by means of state terrorism. Its most notorious acts were committed during the months of April and May 1842, when, if contemporary accounts are true, the streets of the capital were awash with blood..." Source: page 15 of Hooker, Terry D. (2008). The Paraguayan War. Nottingham: Foundry Books. ISBN 1-901543-15-3

i) "In Buenos Aires, Rosas demanded and received dictatorial powers (la suma de poder público). Any educated man who henceforth thought to dissent risked being daggered by agents of his political police, the Mazorca." Source: page 53 of Whigham, Thomas L. (2002). The Paraguayan War: Causes and early conduct. 1. Lincoln, Nebraska: University of Nebraska Press. ISBN 978-0-8032-4786-4

j) "...especially as the celebrated dictator of Buenos Aires, Juan Manuel de Rosas (1835-1852) was believed to be ambitious to restore..." Source: pages 72-73 of Haring, Clarence H. (1969). Empire in Brazil: a New World Experiment with Monarchy. Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press. OCLC 310545470

k) "Juan Manuel de Rosas, dictator of Argentina since the 1830s as caudillo of Buenos Aires, its richest province and its major port..." Source: page 121 of Needell, Jeffrey D. (2006). The Party of Order: the Conservatives, the State, and Slavery in the Brazilian Monarchy, 1831–1871. Stanford, California: Stanford University Press. ISBN 978-0-8047-5369-2

l) "This group was headed by Rosas, who became dictator of Buenos Aires, and effectively of the whole country. for most of the period between 1829 and 1852. His was a brutal reign in which he asserted..." Source: page 16 of Leuchars, Chris (2002). To the bitter end: Paraguay and the War of the Triple Alliance. Westport, Connecticut: Greenwood Press. ISBN 0-313-32365-8

m) "During Juan Manuel de Rosas' dictatorship, political allies..." and "The dictatorship survived the second blockade as it had the first. Within Buenos Aires province, political terror and propaganda checked all signs of resistance." Source: pages 47 and 57 of Lewis, Daniel K. The History of Argentina. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2003 ISBN 1-4039-6254-5

n) "The period of Rosas' second governorship, which was to extend until 1852, was marked by increasing authoritarianism that has coloured his historical image... Rosas also created a more sinister force, known as the Mazorca... those accused of opposition were often tortured or had their throats cut." Source: pages 8 and 9 of Hedges, Jill. Argentina: A Modern History. New York: I.B.Tauris, 2011 ISBN 978-1-84885-654-7

There are other issues, but the question of Rosas being a brutal dictator is the main one. Cambalachero (the other user) removed from the article any mention (including sourced) that Rosas was a dictator. (See here) In fact, he wrote the article in a way that gives the impression that his political opponents were the one who called Rosas a dictator, but that historians, mainly 20th and 21th century ones do not. That's one big lie. Cambalachero is whitewashing other articles too, such as Juan Perón. There is no word that Perón was a dictator, nor that he was well known friend of Nazi nor of his antisemitism. But Perón's article is not the focus of the present discussion. I only wanted to use it as example to show how far Cambalachero has gone. Once you have time and patience, try to read the entire thread ("About the lack of neutrality, the biased view and arbitrary choice of facts added into this article"). You'll realize that Cambalachero avoided answering most of my comments and the ones he did answer, he didn't bring a single source to back his claims. --Lecen (talk) 02:05, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt reply. Of course, the WP:NPOV policy requires that articles present all viewpoints about the topic of the article, so negative material should certainly be included provided that it is supported by sources. I'll look into the sources later. The WP:UNDUE policy, on the other hand, requires that the negative material be presented in rough proportion to the weight the sources give it. I'll wait until Cambalachero provides his input before I make any more comments. --Noleander (talk) 02:52, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Cambalachero: Please keep your comment concise, and supply sources (and page numbers) to support all your points. Thanks. --Noleander (talk) 02:52, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

PS: Due to real-life obligations, my visits to WP will be sporadic for the next couple of weeks. If you post a note, I may not be able to reply for several days. That doesn't mean I've given up! Starting around January 2, 2013, I should be able to participate daily. Cheers. --Noleander (talk) 02:54, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you may have missed the point: it's not a matter of adding two different points of view. But the correct one. We don't write "According to some historians, Hitler killed 6 million jews, but according to others, he didnt." Revisionism is not accepted in here as a second opinion. --Lecen (talk) 03:21, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Let's wait and see what sources Cambalachero provides. --Noleander (talk) 17:14, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

As requested, I will make this short and to the point. Lecen wants the article to say "Rosas was a dictator...", as a statement in wikipedia's voice. But "dictator" is a word that labels, and shall only be used when the usage is universal. Is Rosas universally considered a dictator? No, he is not, and I have provided the required references (books, scanned pages, some info about the authors) about the old controversy at the "Legacy" thread. If the opinion is not universal, the aticle must detail who thinks one thing, who thinks the other, and the current state of the dispute. Remember as well that books authors do not have the policy of avoiding words that label, so the existence of authors that use it does not mean we should. You can make a comparison with Oliver Cromwell, a similar example closer to English-speaking audiences: a man who was depised as a dictator, but honoured by others. The article (which, as far as I remember, I have never touched) mentions who considers him a dictator, but avoids the label "Oliver Cromwell was a dictator...". The same approach should be used here. Cambalachero (talk) 23:04, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

War of the Confederation

According to the main article (War of the Confederation), it was Argentina who declared war ([25]). Yet, this article has the following sentence:

• "Andrés de Santa Cruz, protector of the Peru–Bolivian Confederation, declared the War of the Confederation against Argentina and Chile."

This is probably worth discussing. Regards.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 14:16, 20 December 2012 (UTC)