Talk:Hamid Algar

Contentious material

The material in question regarding alleged comments made by the subject of this biography is currently unacceptable as written, per WP:BLP.

• The only sources are a repost of an article from an apparently-defunct and unverifiable Armenian student-run journal and an unbylined apparent press release from an Armenian student group. Neither of these are reliable sources for contentious material about living persons.
• The material constitutes significant undue weight - well over half the article text was about one minor alleged incident 15 years ago.

The material needs to be rewritten in a neutral, balanced and properly-weighted fashion with support from reliable sources. I suggest the editor who has reverted the material into the article should begin discussing it here. polarscribe (talk) 05:37, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:BLP: "Remove immediately any contentious material about a living person that is unsourced or poorly sourced; that is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see No original research); that relies on self-published sources, unless written by the subject of the BLP (see below); or that relies on sources that fail in some other way to meet Verifiability standards."

The material in question is poorly sourced, at best, and relies on self-published sources. polarscribe (talk) 05:59, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

The press release posted on Asbarez is cited only to the "AGRC" - which appears to be the "Armenian Genocide Resource Center", a blog. It is entirely improper to use that sort of sourcing to make derogatory accusations about a living person. polarscribe (talk) 06:12, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

The only other [reliable] source(s) I've been able to find are from The San Francisco Chronicle. Here's a citation:

• Johnson, Chip. 1999. "Free speech shows bad judgment / professor's ugly remarks should not be tolerated." San Francisco Chronicle, Feb 27, 1999.

Please share any other balanced or reliable sources you have in mind. Jackal 06:27, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I would say that's a start - it's published in a major newspaper, although it's clearly an op-ed and we would need to avoid the author's biases/opinion in the matter. If there is only one source to be found, I'd be very concerned about undue weight and an inability to get a balanced view of the alleged incident. I'll do a Lexis/Nexis and academic search through the IU Library in the morning. polarscribe (talk) 07:08, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't think anyone, including Professor Algar and Berkeley university's administrative establishment, disputes this nasty spat occurred. "Armenian Genocide Resource Center" is a website that works actively to deny the Armenian genocide, so your conjecture (original research on your part) that that is what AGRC stands for is incorrect. Asbarez is a community newspaper and it would not rely on such a slanted site for sources and since its article was published in 1999, I doubt the website even existed at the time. Usanogh was a UC Armenian student-run paper - are you questioning the author's credibility, and if so, on what grounds? Additional material can probably be found in the official declarations and reports cited in the Asbarez article.

And by the way, Professor James Russell, the chair holder of the Armenian Studies program at Harvard University, referred to this incident in a speech several years ago, saying "Often the ruins of Armenian villages and even quarters of whole cities are untouched. So I note with appreciation the inclusion of Hamid Algar, a professor of Persian and Islamic studies (and, for the record, a superb scholar) who in 1998 spat on members of the Armenian Student Association at UC Berkeley. He is quoted as having said to them: 'It was not a genocide, but I wish it were, you lying pigs...You stupid Armenians, you deserve to be massacred!'" So this isn't as obscure as one may think.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:48, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

An unbylined, clearly-slanted article in a newspaper with a clear POV on the issue is not a reliable source. The speech from James Russell is at best tangential. "He is quoted as having said" - who or what is the source for that quote? polarscribe (talk) 18:18, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

No reliable source in the disputed section and therefore removing

Reliable Source Noticeboard (WP:RSN):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Periodical_of_Armenian_Students_suitable_for_WP:BLP

Biography of Living Persons Noticeboard (WP:BLPN):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Hamid_Algar

--Kazemita1 (talk) 17:09, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

With only you and Polarscribe discussing these two threads at the noticeboards so far, there is no consensus at all for a removal of anything in this article. Please be aware that per this decision by Wikipedia's arbitration committee, sites dealing with topics related to Armenia and Azerbaijan may be subject to discretionary sanctions. I'd hate to impose a one-revert per day restriction or something similar on the site, so please keep discussing the matter either here or at the noticeboards, but don't continue to edit war. De728631 (talk) 17:43, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

It would be highly inappropriate for you to impose any administrative action, given that you have involved yourself in the content dispute. polarscribe (talk) 18:19, 3 May 2013 (UTC)