Talk:Macaroni and cheese

Germany- mac und cheese?

Hi. I hope I won't mess up this whole thing as this is my first try to edit anything on Wikipedia. The article says that Macaroni and cheese is known in Germany as mac und cheese. I, being German myself, have never heard anything like that- we have a dish we call 'Nudeln mit Käse' (pasta with cheese), which is kind of the same thing as macaroni and cheese I guess. However I've never heard anyone refer to it as mac und cheese. 88.130.66.198 (talk) 12:48, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I guess I'll just delete it... 88.130.81.138 (talk) 22:15, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to be annoying but shouldn't you give some kind of source if you claim 'Mac und Cheeze' is a German expression? I think it would be stupid to delete that sentence once again, but I really have never heard anybody call this dish Mac und Cheeze and I can't find something like that on the internet. Shouldn't you give SOME kind of evidence? 88.130.80.246 (talk) 22:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I can find no source or reference to this name, so I am removing it - AKeen (talk) 04:38, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The sentence was still there. Therefore I removed it. I also never heard of this expression (I' German too). Especially the transformation from the s to the z in cheese is very unlikely if not completely against the rules in the process of "germanizing" words or expressions.

I think it is a common mistake in english speaking countries to try to connect this dish to the german "Käs-Spätzle", are which at best loosely connected to macaroni and cheese. --92.231.182.226 (talk) 15:03, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Removed Recipes

I have removed a pair of recipes from this talk page. Not because I really mind a talk page having recipes, but because google searches [1] and [2] indicate that both are copied from the New York times. That's a copyright violation. Do not paste in content from other copyrighted sources. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 06:17, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

koonjabianoopi foldenas yopi!

I would like to point out that recipes cannot be ccopyrighted just for the record even though its old--69.146.158.34 (talk) 23:59, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Picture

Can someone please upload a photo of real macaroni and cheese, not the Kraft stuff? This is like using a package of instant ramen for Noodle. Ham Pastrami 07:13, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

too much Kraft

i think this article talks too much about "kraft dinner", and needs to focus more on generic macaroni and cheese. it could also use some cleanup. Sahuagin 15:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Of course it is true that Kraft may have iconic status inCanada. However, my efforts to deal with the full range of commercially available Macaron cheese available in Britain have been removed.Perhaps they should be reinatsted?Harrypotter 07:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

"Purists"?? There's such thing as Mac N Cheese PURISTS?! LOL who wrote this retarded shit —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.89.137.252 (talk) 04:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, I find your use of the word "retarded" to be hugely offensive, go and troll somewhere else, child. And don't swear on wikipedia talkpages. Zanusi 10:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, I find your use of the word "child" to be hugely offensive, go and troll somewhere else, pervert. And don't tell me what language is appropriate on Wikipedia talkpages. 69.196.187.21 (talk) 02:51, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Speaking of Kraft, I have heard the claim that Kraft's "Velveeta" processed cheese product was created in the 1950s as a food service product, to make it easier for restaurants to make cheese sauces and dishes like macaroni-n-cheese. Has anyone else heard this? Is there any truth to it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.242.249 (talk) 01:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree 100%. TFA presently reads like a Kraft advertisement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.105.223.181 (talk) 10:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Well then start discussing real, non-processed, non-kraft recipes for mac 'n' cheese. Did they exist before K.D. was invented? If so, where did they come from? That what an encylopdia is for, kids. However, Kraft Dinner is very successful brand, and also an iconic and extremely well name which is very commonly used to describe all forms of instant mac 'n' cheese. Therefore it needs to be discussed in the article. --76.67.196.45 (talk) 14:19, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

This is an absolutely classic article, thanks to all the contributors! Out of interest, does the ingredients list and nutritional values for the Kraft product serve any particular purpose?Rolypole (talk) 00:36, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Macaroni and Cheese is a Drug?

This article has a disambiguation notice pointing to Cheese (recreational drug). However, the article on the drug makes no reference to macaroni, and some quick Google searching turns up nothing relevant. So I've removed the notice. If someone has a source for mac and cheese as a drug, feel free to re-add it, but please also cite the source in the drug article. Electrolite (talk) 05:11, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

this is stupid cheese is not a drug whoever wrote this is crazy!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.24.114.67 (talk) 23:20, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Casserole?

I know the dish can be made as a casserole but is it really correct to call it a casserole when it is often made completly unlike a casserole maybe mentioning that as a way it can be made would be appropriate but I have only seen it as a caserole one or two times in the several hundred times I have eaten it and most recipes i find when looking for them are not casseroles--17:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shimonnyman (talk • contribs)

This article starts off: "Macaroni and cheese (referred to as macaroni cheese in the United Kingdom, and abbreviated to mac 'n' cheese in parts of the United States, as well as commonly called "Kraft Dinner" in Canada) is a common casserole, similar to the British dish cauliflower cheese. It is a combination of cooked macaroni dried pasta and a cheese sauce.[1]" Why not define what the dish is first before adding all sorts of qualifications concerning what it is called in other countries. For that matter, it doesn't have to be made with dry pasta - it can be made with fresh, undried pasta and presumably macaroni is sufficiently definitive, so even the word pasta isn't needed...so, it isn't necessarily a casserole, isn't necessarily made with dry pasta, is sufficiently described by macaroni as to not need to be doubly defined with pasta, and should be defined first before going into what obscure dish it might be similar to somewhere else. Other than that, it is a bang-up introduction... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.158.61.144 (talk) 20:09, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Marco Polo myth

The article states that Marco Polo brought pasta from Asia to Italy. This is a myth. Marco Polo returned to Venice 1295 while there are written Venecian records of Pasta from several decades prior to that. It is however possible that the Chinese inveted pasta and that it came to the area via the old silk and spice trade route. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.227.230.17 (talk) 02:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

undue weight to the kraft brand

It seems to me that the new section is heavily weighted to the Kraft brand and verging on spam, since most of the links go back to kraft. If there are no objections, I'd like to trim it back and see about getting some better sources. --Nuujinn (talk) 13:54, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Health concerns/kraft focus

Do we really need a 'health concerns' section when talking about this dish? The only relevant info there is the bit about it being a low cost food with a high calorie content - there is no place for the 'tips and suggestions' about making it healthier - these concerns could be applied to ANY pasta dish with a cream/cheese based sauce and are not unique to mac and cheese. Also, this is an encyclopedia, not a how to lose weight and eat healthy guide. Frankly, as a side note the most obvious solution to cut down the calorie content is to EAT LESS of it in one setting - there is no reason to gorge yourself on it and if you do you deserve those extra calories.

Also, as others have mentioned the kraft focus is too much, is good enough to mention kraft dinner as a boxed imitation of this dish with a link going to a separate article on kraft dinner, that information does not need to be detailed here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.247.45 (talk) 23:41, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the last author. Sanborn11 (talk) 02:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

One characteristic of tinned/packet macaroni cheese is a high salt level perhaps this should be mentioned. The Yowser (talk) 14:56, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, a reference work should include accurate nutritional information in any article about food. User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:34, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Macaroni Cheese Pie

... is a Scots speciality. It was the only vegetarian option at most Scottish fish and chip shops, and somehow typifies teh 'no-gourment' end of Scottish cuisine. It deserves more than a brief mention. Does anyone agree? The Yowser (talk) 14:56, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

british origin

please show us where ?????????????????????????????????????? in the history of this dish, where does it originate from Britian jacob805 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.16.113.161 (talk) 18:02, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Mornay sauce, the essential ingredient, other than pasta, is pretty much a French thing. User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:29, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

The first recorded recipe for Macaroni Cheese appears to come from the Experienced English Housekeeper, by a Mrs. Elizabeth Raffald. in 1769 in England... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.109.229.110 (talk) 18:58, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Fast food restaurants specializing in macaroni and cheese

There is a section which includes:

Since 2006, a number of restaurants operating on a fast-food model but serving only macaroni and cheese have opened in places such as New York City, Oakland, Portland, St. Louis, Manchester and Vancouver, Canada.

I cannot find any of these by googling and the information is unsourced. Are there any names, sources? User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:27, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

False claim - "Cheese does not melt"

The article currently contains the following "Unlike the processed cheese products American cheese or Velveeta, cheese does not melt, but, if grated and mixed aggressively with other sauce ingredients, a sauce can be made which is in large part cheese", (my italic).

Most people will know from experience that this isn't true. Cheese does melt, although some particular types of regional cheese may tend to become lumpy on melting (eg. some Cheshires). Many cheeses can be easily melted to a smooth sauce. Also the article used as a reference for this paragraph does not support it. For these reasons I will remove this sentence.86.173.78.190 (talk) 17:07, 28 August 2012 (UTC) This IP is me (I just keep forgetting to log in sorry!)Anonymous watcher (talk) 09:35, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Although the source certainly doesn't claim that cheese is unmeltable, it does say that it's "much harder to get a smooth melt" when using normal cheese, and that many recipes use white sauce, which seems significant. Maybe it's worth restoring it and saying that instead? --McGeddon (talk) 17:22, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

There are actually two recipes, one with white sauce, or a cheese flavored white sauce. The other, a mixture of macaroni and cheese, is a different recipe. This is a subtlety that may in end not be clearly expressed in this article. The source above pretty much makes the situation clear. I don't have a lot of experience melting cheese; I know it will get soft; melting it is another proposition. User:Fred Bauder Talk 22:10, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

The Rules of Melting Cheese. User:Fred Bauder Talk 03:49, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Having looked again at the New York Times source article, perhaps something along the lines of "Some natural cheeses become grainy or clump when melted, but American cheese does not as it has undergone a process which has denatured its proteins. Some people find this ideal for creating an all-cheese sauce. Plain American cheese, labeled pasteurized process cheese, contains the most natural cheese and is the best for cooking. American cheese derivatives are made from cheese and additives such as acids that promote melting" This contains all the relevant information on this matter from the source article, but it may need a bit of work on the wording to avoid plagiarism. I'm not minded to do this myself as I'm not sure the article needs much more on the alternative non-white-sauce variation.Anonymous watcher (talk) 09:56, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

History section compressed

I've condensed the history section considerably. I removed much about the history and industrialization of pasta manufacture; this info belongs in the macaroni article, but only clutters up the mac and cheese article. Ditto cheese manufacture. A lot of it was also unsourced, or sourced but quoted erroneously. If I left it in, I tried to edit the info to reflect what the source says. Some statements still lack citation.

The article is lacking early 20th century history of this dish. According to sources, it was fashionable in the 18th century but did not become popular with the masses when the ingredients became affordable in the 19th century. What caused the popularity to surge in the 20th c.? I hate to say it, considering earlier comments on this page, but I suspect it was due to the affordability of Kraft Dinner. Or possibly Velveeta. But that's only my guess. If anyone can provide well-sourced info on mac and cheese in the 20th c., I think it would add to the article. Richigi (talk) 16:50, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

Macaroni and cheese → Macaroni cheese – This dish, from reading the article as currently written, was originally an English dish (possible brought from France / Italy), and therefore has strong ties to England. It should therefore be named using the English variation of the name (macaroni cheese) per WP:TIES. Betrandrussell (talk) 14:29, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:RETAIN. Hot Stop talk-contribs 14:44, 13 October 2013 (UTC)