Talk:Bloody Sunday (1972)

This article attracts a lot of trolls the best advice is to not feed them

major ted loden

Just corrected Bloody Sunday text which stated that a Major Ted Loden was commander of 1 para in Derry on Bloody Sunday. I am old enough to remember it was Lt. Col. Derek Wilford, not Loden. Loden served in Aden, not N.I. Wilford, now 76 and living in Belgium, was described in Saville report as having disobeyed orders by allowing his troops to use live rounds against civilians.

Only Wilford knows the truth. 109.149.6.87 (talk) 13:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

According to a BBC report on the Saville inquiry findings relating to the key soldiers involved with Bloody Sunday, it states that Lt. Col. Wilford was directly in charge of the soldiers who went into the Bogside to arrest rioters, protect the public, and return back to base unharmed. However, Wilford disobeyed his orders by his superior Brigadier Patrick MacLellan. In contrast Major Ted Loden, was the commander in charge of soldiers following orders issued by Lieutenant Colonel Wilford. Furthermore, following the events of Bloody Sunday, Wilford was the awarded the Order of the British Empire by the Queen. See here Bloody Sunday: Key soldiers involved, BBC News — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.137.72.220 (talk) 15:28, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Removal of vital information on Bloody Sunday

Some guy named 'The Banner' who seems to be Dutch keeps removing information to Bloody Sunday. Although 'The Banner' may not like the information or it conflicts with what you think you know, the information I had written is reliable and has valid citations. please stop. In the first instance, there would be no in-depth mention of all the key figures from the British Army in this article and therefore misinform a reader. For instance, the article argues Loden was in charge on the day when in fact it was Wilford which is covered in the paragraph I had written before The Banner removed it. See as follows:

Regarding the soldiers in charge on the day of Bloody Sunday, Saville found: Lieutenant Colonel Derek Wilford was commander of 1 Para and on the day was directly responsible to arrest rioters and return to base. However, Wilford 'deliberately disobeyed' his superior Brigadier [Patrick] MacLellan's orders by sending Support Company into the Bogside [and without informing MacLellan][71]. Brigadier Patrick MacLellan was operational commander of the day. The Saville Inquiry cleared MacLellan of any wrong-doing as he was under the impression that Wilford would follow orders by arresting rioters and then returning to base and could not be blamed for for Wilford's actions.Major General Robert Ford was Commander of land forces and set the British strategy to oversee the civil march in Derry. Although, Saville cleared Ford of any fault, He found Ford's selection of 1 Para and in particular Wilford to be in control of arresting rioters was disconcerning, specifically as "1 PARA was a force with a reputation for using excessive physical violence, which thus ran the risk of exacerbating the tensions between the Army and nationalists".Major Ted Loden was the commander in charge of soldiers following orders issued by Lieutenant Colonel Wilford. Saville cleared Loden of misconduct citing that Loden "neither realised nor should have realised that his soldiers were or might be firing at people who were not posing or about to pose a threat". In short, the inquiry found that Loden could not be held responsible for claims (whether malicious or not) by some of the individual soldier's of receiving fire from snipers. Captain Mike Jackson [later General Sir Mike Jackson] was second in command of 1 Para on the day of Bloody Sunday. Saville cleared Jackson of sinsiter actions following Jackson's compiling of a list of what soldiers told Major Loden on why they had fired. This list became known as "Loden List of Engagements" which played a role in the army's initial explanations. While Saville found the compiling of the list was 'far from ideal', he accepted Jackson's explanations based on the list not containing the name of soldiers and the number times they fired. Saville had concluded that Lance Corperal F was responsible for a number of the deaths and that a number of soldiers have "knowingly put forward false accounts in order to seek to justify their firing"[76]. Intelligence officer Colonel Maurice Tugwell and Colin Wallace, (an IPU army press officer) were also both cleared of wrongdoing. Saville believed the information Tugwell and Wallace released through the meadia was not down to any deliberate attempt to deceive the public but rather due to much of the inaccurate information Tugwell had received at the time by various other figures. Major Michael Steele who with MacLellan in the operational room and who was in charge of passing on the orders on the day. Saville accepted Steele could not believe other that a separation had been achieved between rioters and marchers because both groups were in different areas.

Secondly, there is no mention of what happened to these key figures after Bloody Sunday in the article. I had written the following:

Nonetheless, six months after Bloody Sunday, Lieutenant Colonel Derek Wilford who was directly in charge of 1 Para, the soldiers who went into the Bogside, was awarded the Order of the British Empire by the Queen, while other soldiers were equally decorated with honors for their part on the day

I think this is valuable information because the true extent of injustice the people of Derry experienced, but 'The Banner' clearly does not think so and had removed it.

Thirdly, removed by 'The Banner' was the reaction by Wilford on Blairs intention to run the Saville Inquiry, although he mentions a comments by certain members of the British army that may give the wrong impression they wanted this. In fact, they didn't as indicated by Wilford below:

In 1998 Lieutenant Colonel Derek Wilford expressed his anger at Tony Blair's intention of setting up the Saville inquiry, citing he was proud of his actions on Bloody Sunday.Two years later in 2000 during an interview with the BBC, Wilford said ""There might have been things wrong in the sense that some innocent people, people who were not carrying a weapon, were wounded or even killed. But that was not done as a deliberate malicious act. It was done as an act of war."

Finally, and most importantly 'The Banner' removes the comments of Cameron in the Houses of Commons which I had written as:

Reporting the findings of the Saville Inquiry in the House of Commons, the British Prime Minister David Cameron said: “Mr Speaker, I am deeply patriotic. I never want to believe anything bad about our country. I never want to call into question the behaviour of our soldiers and our army, who I believe to be the finest in the world. And I have seen for myself the very difficult and dangerous circumstances in which we ask our soldiers to serve. But the conclusions of this report are absolutely clear. There is no doubt, there is nothing equivocal, there are no ambiguities. What happened on Bloody Sunday was both unjustified and unjustifiable. It was wrong."

Omitting this comment is silly beacuse this comment is iconic of when the British government accepted they were wrong on Bloody Sunday and needs to be kept in. It is what many people had sought for a long time and it is disrespectful to not include it.

All that has been written here can be backed up from here:

(they are mostly BBC reports)Bloody Sunday: Key soldiers involved, BBC News, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10287463

Britain's propaganda war during the Troubles, BBC News, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/8577087.stm [[ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/2521517.stm%7C Major gives Bloody Sunday evidence, BBC News, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/2521517.stm]] Bloody Sunday: PM David Cameron's full statement, BBC News, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10322295 Col Wilford: Don't blame my soldiers, BBC News, Bloody Sunday Inquiry, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/northern_ireland/2000/bloody_sunday_inquiry/673039.stm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.137.72.220 (talk) 16:44, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, it is disrespectful to point on my nationality as first point. There is no relevance or need to do that. Secondly, I advised to move the info to Bloody Sunday Inquiry because it will fit better there. The Banner talk 17:15, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

and as I pointed out to you none of this fits beeter in th Bloody Sunday Inquiry, for instance, how does the fact that many of the British soldiers been decorated by the Queen six months after the event fit much better in the Bloody Sunday Inquiry. Saville did not investigate this aspect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.137.72.220 (talk) 22:10, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The article should be neutral. You can create another article Awards given for Bloody Sunday or something like that. The Banner talk 22:36, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

To create a seperate article just to write one line of "awards given for Bloody Sunday" would be silly, lt alone misdirection. By keeping this information in this article not only reports factual information but also keeps the article neutral. It portrays the true sentiment of what was occurring at the time. I mean, how would this information not be keeping the article neutral. For instance take the following paragraph which is already in this article (and was not placed there by me)and tell me how exactly it is more neutral than six months after Bloody Sunday the Queen decorated a number of Service men (which I had added):

"Following the events of Bloody Sunday Bernadette Devlin, an Independent Socialist nationalist MP from Northern Ireland, expressed anger at what she perceived as government attempts to stifle accounts being reported about the day. Having witnessed the events firsthand, she was later infuriated that she was consistently denied the chance to speak in Parliament about the day, although parliamentary convention decreed that any MP witnessing an incident under discussion would be granted an opportunity to speak about it in the House.[50] Devlin punched Reginald Maudling, the Secretary of State for the Home Department in the Conservative government, when he made a statement to Parliament on the events of Bloody Sunday stating that the British Army had fired only in self-defence"

The fact is these decorations by the Queen to British soldiers occurred as a direct result of Bloody Sunday and therefore merit mentioning as Wikipedia aspires to show factual information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.137.72.220 (talk) 16:22, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

List of the dead

Is this really necessary? Didn't I read somewhere that only the most notable names should be kept unless it's a standalone list? SonofSetanta (talk) 17:03, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Whilst a list is merited, an article such as this will always receive an unmerited amount of republican bias and defence from sympathetic editors. Best thing to do is ensure that what is being claimed by the sources is actually in the sources, as no doubt some manipulation and word-play is in play. Mabuska ^(talk) 00:20, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree. The article, as it stands, isn't written in a way which gives any dignity to the dead. SonofSetanta (talk) 08:40, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Only negative gunshot results mentioned in list of dead.

In the list of the dead, for those whom the gunshot residue tests turned up negative, it's mentioned. The positive results aren't. 92.1.37.91 (talk) 21:56, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

92.1.37.91 might give greater detail of the positive results. No British soldier was killed or injured, as far as I can see. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.180.152.221 (talk) 15:18, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Notable "Cheifly" because of the Paras did the shooting?

Last line of intro states:

"Bloody Sunday remains among the most significant events in the Troubles of Northern Ireland, chiefly because those who died were shot by the British army rather than paramilitaries, in full view of the public and the press."

Bloody Sunday had one of the highest death tolls of any single action. I don't think it is a "man bites dog" type of significance. 69.138.223.87 (talk) 22:39, 30 January 2014 (UTC)