Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling

WikiProject Professional Wrestling
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Lilian Garcia's birthplace?

We have a reference in the article saying that she was born in Puerto Rico and moved to Spain. The birthplace is still listed as "Madrid Spain". And on the talk page there is discussion about her being born in South Carolina. Which one is it? 24.42.55.61 (talk) 13:36, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Also, the reference being used to source her birthplace as Madrid doesn't say anything about her being born there, just that she was raised in Spain due to her parents' work. 24.42.55.61 (talk) 13:40, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

There is a big difference brtween being born somewhere and raised somewhere. Being raised in Madrid in no way proves that she was born there.--67.70.140.89 (talk) 14:32, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:42, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

I mention elsewhere my complaints that Wikipedians take "from" to mean "born and raised" and little else. Combine this with an attitude that every biographical article should have the subject's birthplace mentioned, even if it's just totally made up out of thin air due to a lack of reliable sources. I've been kept pretty busy having to correct countless instances of this over the years. I referred to Mean Mike Miller in a previous thread. Miller has himself stated that he's from Tennessee, he was billed from Tennessee during his early career as a jobber, and he speaks with a Southern accent. More importantly, the source doesn't state that he was born in Portland, only that Portland is his "hometown". Many of Don Owen's wrestlers settled in Oregon, because that's where they had their greatest success in the business, and/or because Oregon is simply a great place to live, its political climate notwithstanding. I wouldn't be in Alaska if it weren't such a great place to live. My birthplace is the place where I was born and lived up through the first few years of elementary school. My hometown (the same place I live today) is where I've spent the majority of my life since moving away from my birthplace, which includes the majority of my schooling and the majority of my accomplishments as an adult. See the difference? I only mention this because of constantly finding myself in conversations with people who don't. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 00:38, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I found myself in that elsewhere conversation (one of them, anyway), and have agreed twice now. I sort of live on that page lately, but this Wikiproject will always be my homepage. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:09, May 12, 2014 (UTC)

Here's a take on this subject that's a little more relevant. It's well known that Terry Funk was born in Indiana. However, it's ludicrous to assert that he's "known for being from Indiana", considering his decades-long, strong public persona (and to a certain extent, real-life background) as this crazy, pissed-off cowboy from West Texas. Likewise, Kevin Von Erich isn't known for being from Illinois, Kerry isn't known for being from New York and Chris Benoit isn't known for being from Quebec (though that fact may go far in explaining his surname). In diffusing Category:Professional wrestlers from, an inordinate amount of weight was given towards categorization according to the subject's birthplace, even in cases of wrestlers "known for" (and not in the kayfabe sense, either) residence in another place. Sounds like a perverse interpretation of WP:OC to me, as in any other case, we would be using said WP:OC to remove categories deemed undefining of or unimportant to the subject. To elaborate on "undefining of", how many second and third generation wrestlers were born on the road in some faraway wrestling territory? Anyway, this has been a problem which transcends this one little topic. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 02:50, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Those are useful categories, though. People researching famous people from a particular state can use those categories to identify subjects. You might not feel that Terry Funk is "known for" being from Indiana, but that's not what the category is about. He was born in Indiana, so he is a professional wrestler from Indiana. Keep in mind that it's quite likely that people looking through that category might not just be looking to learn about Terry Funk, for example, but also to learn about Indiana and famous Hoosiers (even those who are not "known for" being Hoosiers). Yes, Terry Funk makes me think of Texas first. However, that's irrelevant, if we are lookign to provide useful information to a wide audience. Therefore, he is a professional wrestler from Indiana, and he is a professional wrestler from Texas. This si standard with categorization in other sports on Wikipedia. GaryColemanFan (talk) 15:13, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Another requested move

"Eddie Gilbert (wrestler)" to "Hot Stuff Eddie Gilbert". McPhail (talk) 16:18, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Would Alfred Hayes (wrestler) to Lord Alfred Hayes be a good move?LM2000 (talk) 05:51, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion it would be, it does appear to be his common name. That is if he was known as throughout his time in WWE as Lord Alfred Hayes, I am not as familiar with that period as I would like to be. STATic message me! 06:42, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Alfred Hayes (wrestler) to Lord Alfred Hayes.LM2000 (talk) 05:54, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

"Unofficial" reigns?

What is the official posture regarding these? Because at the moment, a couple of sourced ones are being removed from the List of NWA World Heavyweight Champions, while several others remain untouched. I know that List of WWE Champions lists Inoki and support keeping them in the lists with a note (just like its being done right now). By keeping them, we help to illustrate the actual history of these titles. Can something prove just how hot Ric Flair was in the 1980s better than the Veneno incident? Hell, the Carlos Colón reign was notable enough to make the WWE Encyclopedia and his HOF t-shirt. El Alternativo (talk) 18:54, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

We generally review unofficial reigns on a case-by-case basis, which can be a pain in the ass. Colón's reign was unofficial, but is notable, and is even recognized by WWE, so we should leave that one. The IPs suggestion to remove all unofficial reigns if Hogan's cannot be listed is ridiculous. Some title matches have dusty finishes and nobody ends up recognizing the reign. You guys have to discuss, at this point, (you've warred enough) to figure out where Hogan's reign goes.LM2000 (talk) 19:23, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Ok, one of them -the Ray González one- was witnessed by me in person. And, as I explained in HHH Pedrigree's talk page, IWA took several steps to make it known that the win stood and that despite the belt being stripped afterwards, they still recognized the change. It was not a "dusty finish". Since that booking was made with Jeff Jarrett's (who was involved in the NWA-TNA licensing deal) full consent, I think that it should remain. BTW, I am not the IP, my edit only restored the one that was actually witnessed. I can't vouch for the Hogan reign, but just removing it without discussion is probably not a good idea. El Alternativo (talk) 19:33, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Using the definitions below, I think Gonzalez would count as an unofficial reign as IWA seemed to have recognized it.LM2000 (talk) 20:59, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

According Wrestlinglover, a unofficial reign and a no-reign are different thing. 1, unofficial reign: the match ended with a victory. It's a fact and we talk about facts. After, one company doesn't recognized the new champion, the other does. 2, no reign. The match ends with a dusty finish or the referee decision was reversed. In that case, the reign doesn't exist because the winner didn't won. For example. Jericho won the WWF Title. However, the victory was reversed, so Jericho didn't won the match, so he never won the WWF Title. (later, he won the Undisputed title). I think the expert is Wrestlinglover --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 20:35, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Wrestlinglover's definitions seem pretty solid to me as well.LM2000 (talk) 20:38, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

About Hogan, I don't think so. The descrpition is a mess "Terry "The Hulk" Boulder pinned NWA World Champion Harley Race to win the NWA World Championship, but the decision was voided when Terry was discovered to have thrown Race over the top rope during the match. Normally this would simply be looked at as a "Dusty finish" and ignored but video footage from the following night has surfaced in which Boulder's win is recognized - albeit briefly. This title change is not currently recognized by the NWA." Description says it was a dusty finish. Sources? http://hulkhoganhistory.weebly.com/title-history.html Hulk Hogan website/fanpage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgMdEbATOyQ Youtube clip when Hogan was presented as champion (Also, Ted DiBiase was presented three times as wwf champion). http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=114197 a forum. Clearly, it was a dusty finish and maybe, an error from the announcer. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 20:42, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Announcers misspeak all the time. None of the sources seem adequate enough for me. Saying Hogan won the NWA title for 36 seconds is like saying The Rockers beat The Hart Foundation for the tag titles at SNME in 1990. We do make note of their "victory" as a note next to Hart Foundation's reign, but it's clearly a "no-reign" instead of an "unofficial reign".LM2000 (talk) 20:59, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

I think that if a decision was voided (meaning that there is "no winner") listing that as a "reign" is probably a stretch. However, when one of the sides lays claim to the win (and a pinfall did occur), we should include it. In González's case, the reign was recognized both live and in a show that was taped a few days afterwards. I wish that we had a reference with a more detailed summary, but the one there at least confirms the result and notes the "brief" reign. El Alternativo (talk) 22:24, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Most of these issues again are a case by case basis. Some that seem official may not actually be official reigns. The one thing I want to point out is any recognized reign needs to be counted towards the official total, even if it was for a brief second and then noted that it is no longer recognized. Seem the list of TNA champions as an example.--WillC 04:23, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

While we're on the topic... I see that Jack Veneno's reign is listed at 0 days. This doesn't seem right, as what I've read is that Veneno defeated Flair under dubious circumstances, but Flair let Veneno keep the belt expecting to regain it at another time. In Veneno's title defense he ended up retaining against Flair due to fear of riots, and Veneno just gave the belt back because he didn't want to defend outside of the Dominican Republic, because of this it was never recognized by the wider NWA. How much time passed between Veneno's initial win and his handing the title back to Flair?LM2000 (talk) 22:37, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

What I have read is that Flair was offered the belt back, but preferred to wrap the storyline up by allowing Veneno to keep it and carry it to the ring for their "rematch". Like the original, the rematch was supposed to end with Flair on top, this time with the help of Roddy Piper, but apparently a pair of guards legitimately threatened Piper at ringside. And Flair decided to hightail it... Again. Flair did leave the DR with the belt, which points to the whole "not wanting to defend outside the DR" part being a work. Anyways, the reign lasted a day. El Alternativo (talk) 08:08, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Guess my hunch wasn't right.LM2000 (talk) 20:22, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Age in infoboxes

Hi. Ribbon and me have a little discussion. At You Only Live Twice, Icarus (31 years old) won the Grand Championship. The previous champion, Eddie Kingston, was 29 when he won the title. However, he holded the title for two years, so he was 32 when he lost the title. That mean's Kingston is the Youngest (29) and oldest (32) years old. However, infobox instructions say "oldest The oldest person to win the title followed by their age at the time of the title win." That makes no sense. Kingston is the oldest champion because he had the title when he was 32, but instructions say the oldest champion is Icarus. I think we should change it. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 20:28, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I think age matters more at the time of the win. The (sort of) impressive bit lies in the fact that a booker decided an older man should become champ, rather than decide an older man should lose the belt. The "big moment" for any-aged champion is the win.

That said, if we're using the term "Oldest champion", then a 32-year-old champion on the way out is clearly older and just as much a champ as the 31-year-old new champ. Something should be changed. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:56, May 26, 2014 (UTC)

When I said "something", I mean the intructions XD --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 23:16, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Aye, got that. When I said it, I meant either the instructions or the term. Change it to "Oldest man to win the championship", maybe. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:35, May 26, 2014 (UTC)

• Proposing "Oldest wrestler at time of championship win" starship.paint "YES!" 04:07, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

"Oldest championship winner" says as much in fewer words. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:06, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

The age thing is annoying. We need sources for most of it which is hard. Usually it is just original research.--WillC 05:18, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

OK. I'll change it. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:23, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

As long as the birth date of the wrestlers are sourced, it should be fine? starship.paint "YES!" 09:54, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

And the switch date, of course. Simple subtractions are not synthesis. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:03, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

Just to make it clear. In the example case, which of the guys would belong in the infobox as the oldest champ; Kingston who won it at 29 and lost it at 32 or Icarus who won it at 31? HHH seems to think you're agreeing with his view, but "oldest wrestler at time of championship win" doesn't sound like it to me. リボン・サルミネン (Ribbon Salminen) (talk) 13:52, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

The fact is Kingston is the oldest championship holder. It doesn't matter when he won the title (for youngest champion). He became the oldest champion at the age of 32. We can't say Icarus is the oldest champion when he is 31. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 16:04, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

No one's denying that Kingston held it at an older age. The idea was to change the "oldest champion" to "oldest championship winner", in which case Icarus would be the "oldest championship winner". リボン・サルミネン (Ribbon Salminen) (talk) 17:37, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Again, not sense. I think when the project made the list, didn't think about a champion become the oldest champion durning his reign. We should talk about Oldest CHAMPION, not winner. It's the whole information, not only part of the information. HHH Pedrigree (talk) 18:50, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Anoother answere? Oldest winner or oldest holder? That's the question. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:31, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

New user Ana Xsosta

Can someone help me out with this new user? Per the contributions page it seems that Ana Xsosta doesn't really know how to edit Wikipedia very well, especially regarding how Wiki-links [[AA#BB|CC]] work and uploading copyrighted files. Adding moves like Proxanui that I've never heard of (and Google can't find it either). Or check Dean Ambrose's edit history? No response to three talk page messages I sent. starship.paint "YES!" 09:03, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Block. Ask for a ban. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:18, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

NXT event comparison

I am having trouble understanding notability criteria. How do we determine that NXT Arrival gets a page while NXT Takeover does not?

How do we compare the notability of these pair of NXT events to Clash of the Champions?

I think we need to look at things besides whether or not something is a pay-per-view. It is possible for these events to possibly do more for a company than a pay-per-view could. Ranze (talk) 03:38, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I believe that there is a consensus here, that generally, special TV episodes or WWE Network specials do not deserve individual articles. If the only factor in favour is that it's being "built like a PPV" or that it has many title matches, then it is not enough. Otherwise, every Clash of the Champions episode or special TV episodes of Impact Wrestling called No Surrender (2013) would require individual articles. For NXT Arrival, the crucial additional factor was that it was the first live in-ring event on the Network. If there is no additional factor, then I believe it doesn't deserve an individual article. Instead it should be collected as a list like List of WWE NXT special episodes provides for. starship.paint "YES!" 03:55, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

With very rare exceptions, special episodes do not get separate articles. Arrival is one of those exceptions because of its importance to the WWE Network. Although I don't agree with it, Raw 1000 is the only Raw special episode to get a separate article, because of its wider importance as being a landmark in television. I don't see anything exceptional about Takeover that would warrant an article separate from List of WWE NXT special episodes.LM2000 (talk) 04:48, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Arrival has some historical significance due to being the first live broadcast on WWE Network. Takeover has no such extra history to it. Vjmlhds (talk) 17:51, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Takeover is the first special where a new NXT Woman's Champion was crowned, that should be worth something. Ranze (talk) 02:35, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

That's splitting hairs. Even if the inaugural champion was crowned there I wouldn't think that would be enough to warrant a separate page.LM2000 (talk) 02:46, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Just to expand on that... The episode of WWF The Main Event where Hulk Hogan dropped the world championship to Andre the Giant doesn't have its own article. That holds quite a bit more significance than Charlotte's win.LM2000 (talk) 02:54, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

• Ranze by that logic any special show with a new champion would qualify for an article. Let's look at it from another direction. Our WP:PW project is too small, we have too few members. If there are too many articles, who is going to write them up to an acceptable standard? TNA has only 4 PPVs per year now, but look at the state of Sacrifice (2014), one reference, no Event section, no Aftermath section and a negligible Reception section. How about WWE's Money in the Bank (2013)? No Event or Reception section, entirely unsourced Background and Aftermath section. If we can't maintain the definite PPV articles, how are we going to maintain the "special" TV or Network articles? It's going to be mostly IPs who are editing, and they can't do it too well. We must be pragmatic here. (LOL LM2000 you spoiled Charlotte's win... never mind, I saw it coming anyway)
• Also, Ranze, if you really want to improve and expand an article, there are many to choose from. I'd recommend SummerSlam (2013) as a great show. Or, you could improve Raw 1000. starship.paint "YES!" 04:40, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Quality articles or featured content in WP:PW

Hey! I know that this Wikiproject has Featured content or "Article examples" that displays in the main page. The problem here is that I'm concern of its completion especially the DYKs, says the last time a pro wrestling article appeared was in June 2012. So over a year there have been no articles in DYK? I'm in doubt. I believe the solution for that is to screw the manual editing and a bot like JL-Bot to do the hard work. I'm also proposing to split the section to have its own page (something we could be proud of), since bots will discover every featured content there is. (Recognized content) Let me know what you all think so that we could discuss this further. Thanks! FairyTailRocks 06:13, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Meh, a bot would work. Not that much of an issue. We don't get many GAs, etc anymore around here. Probably easy to update the lists. I know of a couple that aren't on there. I tend to include all of the materials I get promoted other than DYKs. Last one I'd be aware of would be by me. Victory Road (2008) just went GA and prior to that DYK. Probably it.--WillC 08:36, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

FairyTailRocks if you can get the bot up running, that would be great. Don't be so surprised at the lack of DYKs - between my join date of May 2011 and your GA of Cody Rhodes and Goldust, almost all the GAs were passed by WillC or myself, and I did not go for any DYKs, until NXT Arrival, whose DYK ran on the main page yesterday. starship.paint "YES!" 05:15, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

I will try my best to find one. FairyTailRocks 05:59, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Did you know Capital Combat "also featured" the former Johnny Ace getting buried by the future Undertaker? Did you know he's apparently still "WWE Executive Vice President of Talent Relations and General Manager of Raw and SmackDown"? Did you know the article's been tagged for six and a half years? InedibleHulk (talk) 11:10, June 2, 2014 (UTC)

WWE Money in the Bank

"As of TLC: Tables, Ladders & Chairs (2013), WWE's two world titles are unified into one. Therefore, unless events unfold otherwise, there will only one Money in the Bank match at the 2014 event with the winner getting a shot at the WWE World Heavyweight Championship."

^ What's with that terrible terrible wording? Feedback ^☎ 00:02, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Surely a blue user would not have written that. It's WP:CRYSTAL anyway so I am removing. starship.paint "YES!" 05:18, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, I think it's notable to mention that one of the prizes has been discontinued (a shot at the retired WHC). But it's definitely speculation to say there will only be 1 MitB match. They could just come up with another prize if they wanted to. Feedback ^☎ 15:23, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

That's a good point, it could very well be for the US or IC championship, we simply don't know what they will do yet.--70.49.80.26 (talk) 02:08, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

We can just wait a while. The PPV is a month or so away, right? All will be clear soon. starship.paint "YES!" 04:20, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

HE LIVES

Brimstone (wrestler) has been recreated and PROD-ed (proposed for deletion). The creator of the article somehow knows Prior to beginning his career in professional wrestling, Brimstone had a career in music performing as the drummer in bands such as Image, Who’s Laughing Now, and Bugsy. or While Critical Mass was still building, Brimstone came up with and printed out mini flyers in order to start gaining some interest in the school. He personally went to malls, WWF and WCW events at the Nassau Coliseum, Gyms, etc. to hand out these flyers and paper them on cars. I am not ssure whether the PROD is even valid for an recreated article previously deleted by AfD, so I tried to contact the PROD-er, no response yet. If the PROD is invalid, I'm willing to write up an AfD. starship.paint "YES!" 04:17, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

In a related matter, are we ever going to do anything about Ric Drasin? Trim or delete for this other obvious conflict of interest case? starship.paint "YES!" 04:17, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

I think I discovered his claim to notability. The infobox says that he was born in 1874. The photo in the infobox shows him to be awfully young for someone born in 1874. Obviously, he was the inspiration for that ICP song, "I Want My Shit". Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go and laugh at my own joke.

Seriously, since you also mention Ric Drasin, I keep thinking of how Johnny Powers comes across as a little too autobiographical/hagiographic. There is a major difference of note, namely that Powers has actual accomplishments in the business to speak of. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 06:47, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

You just reminded me I told The Stro I'd help his page. Soon. Maybe.

As for Drasin, can't someone else do it? Trim, I mean. He's definitely notable. Just...you know. Not a legend. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:26, June 2, 2014 (UTC)

I added a source to Brimstone, but the prod's still good, because it isn't a reliable one. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:50, June 2, 2014 (UTC)

How similar is this to the deleted version, if it is a G4 deletion could ge attempted unless it has alreay been declined.--70.49.80.26 (talk) 03:27, 3 June 2014 (UTC)