Talk:Cain and Abel

Adam and Eve's offspring

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

If Abel and Cain were the only sons of Adam and Eve, that means that Eve was still the only female on the planet. Then with whom did Abal and Cain have sex to produce more humans?

Although I know the answer to this question, I don't believe that Wikipedia is the place to discuss this because a good encyclopedic editor should already have a basic understanding of Adam's offspring if editing such content. Wikipedians do not philosophize on Wikipedia. If you wish to philosophize this subject, I would suggest you either go to a local Judaism center and ask a rabbi, or go to a local Christian church and ask a minister. If you wish to edit on Wikipedia, I would suggest you pursue a theology degree or go to a local library and research it. :/ Thanks,   — Jason Sosa 15:22, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I would rather advise the editor to read Genesis more carefully. There's no need to go to a religious authority to realize that Cain and Abel were not the only sons of Adam, and that Eve was not the only female, because Adam 'begat sons and daughters' (Genesis 5:4). - Lindert (talk) 15:34, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

It is not the place of a Wikipedian editor to answer this sort of question. The person who raised this question should research it for themselves. Pointing to Genesis does not advance the Wikipedian editor because that is using a wp:primary source to interpret that question. If the person wishes to edit such content, they must have a proper understanding of an wp:independent WP:THIRDPARTY wp:reliable source that can be wp:verifiable. Genesis 5:4 does not qualify under these policies and cannot be used in an encyclopedic edit without a wp:reliable source, otherwise we would be promoting wp:original research. Thanks,   — Jason Sosa 16:09, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia policies regarding reliable sources or original research do not apply to talk pages. Your own suggestion to ask a rabbi doesn't pass the WP:RS criterion either. I never suggested using purely primary sources for the article. Clearly the OP was asking a question from the perspective of the book of Genesis. I don't see any problem with pointing out some things that he/she may have overlooked. - Lindert (talk) 16:29, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

The OP may have inadvertently asked a question that could have led Wikipedian's to philosophize on this talk page which could have led to unnecessary heated discussions. His local rabbi/minister can point out what he might have overlooked. It should not involve Wikipedia. Thanks,   — Jason Sosa 16:36, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

The form of the question itself is illogical. It's like saying, "because A+B=C, then D must equal F. There is no logical connection between what is being inferred in the question itself. First it makes an inaccurate assumption (that Cain and Abel were the only sons of Adam and Eve, or for that matter, that Adam and Eve were the only humans that God created), to leap to an illogical conclusion (that Eve was the only female on earth at the time that Cain and Abel were seeking mates). I do, however, agree with both of you that the talk page of this article is the wrong place to seek the answers. The talk page is solely for the purpose of improving the article. The answers one receives to these questions will also depend not only on where one seeks the answers (rabbi, priest, scripture, etc.) but also on how one interprets the sources of information. I would encourage seekers to avoid the Literalists or the answers given may prove more laughable than the question. Instead consider that Scripture was never intended to be taken literally or we Christians would all be of the viewpoint that dinosaurs co-existed with Man, that Creation and Evolution are mutually exclusive theories, and that the Earth is just a few thousand years old. Garth of the Forest (talk) 23:03, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Thus, philosophizing...   — Jason Sosa 06:32, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

You were right, I think we can agree to close this thread. - Lindert (talk) 13:21, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mythical mythical?

I know that all the religious articles have their own version of the "mythical" argument (as I see it, the "believers" are constantly trying to remove the word from the article while the "non-believers" treat it as though it were absolutely required in every religious article). Regardless, I think the first sentence of this article has reached an unfortunate extreme. It employs the phrase "mythical sons of mythical...." That reads really poorly! Do we seriously need the word mythical used two times within four words? Can't the sentence be revised to read more fluidly? I know a percentage of wikipedians just have to see the word mythical in the first sentence of every religious article, but this is getting ridiculous. It's almost worse than lawyers always using the word egregious in every sentence. The last time I removed the word mythical from a religious article everyone freaked out (though I only removed it from the first sentence--I left all other uses of it in the article!). So I won't make this edit until everyone agrees that the phrase "mythical sons of mythical...." is really poor sentence structure. --wiki user MorbidAnatomy (not signed in right now). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.82.215.201 (talk) 21:57, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the lead sentence doesn't read well as of now, and the previous version was better IMO. I do not object to the use of 'mythical' if it serves a purpose. I don't think it currently does. The edit summary that was given for the current version was It's ancient myth, not fact, so say so. However, stating that Cain and Abel were, according to the Book of Genesis, two sons of Adam and Eve, is not implying that they really were. The best way to retain a neutral POV, I think is to clearly use attribution. I don't think the exact verses need to be mentioned in the lead sentence. I've now edited the sentence accordingly, any suggestions (or disagreements) are welcome. - Lindert (talk) 22:30, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't even aware of the previous change. The wording which you used certainly reads much more smoothly. If somebody feels they need the word mythical in there I'm not going to argue it, I just didn't like seeing it used twice in four words. It's just bad writing. MorbidAnatomy (talk) 01:03, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Eten and Emesh

Cain and Abel is related to "Eten and Emesh."

It should be mentioned.--85.104.53.19 (talk) 04:09, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

You may have meant Enten instead of 'Eten'. Anyway, it cannot be included unless reliable sources are provided supporting your assertion. - Lindert (talk) 10:16, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

So did Adam only has two sons- ABEL & CAIN and where did SETH appeared ?

I want to ask the justice of your case on the write up here. SO who is SETH ?

I hope before you edit this toipc on wiki, please consult ad Orthodox Rabbi- on Abel, Cain and SETH ? Do you know that the scripture said 'that Adam begets sons and daughters.:-)~ This is a plural noun.

So are Abel and SETH , the same person, or a third person ( among his brother Cain & Abel )

Please take note : never in my Jewish text that we omitted the text like you did here in the wiki- Adam was blessed with "SONS and DAUGHTERS "

Cain settled in ,Nod East of Eden , punished for 7 generation and his generation of children, his first born Enoch bu succession in the fashion mentioned below :

1. Enoch - the city builder ( the first born of CAIN) 2. Irad 3.metujael 4. methushael ( NO METHUSALAH as many of you get these personalities confused, Note -Methusalah of of the lineage of SETH. ) 5. Lemech

Note. Cain , Abel and Seth are sons of Adam, as to his daughters (no info recorded) if you have please let me know : -)~ Thanks. Note . the Lineage of the Hebrews are Patriarchal not matriarchal, though both the male and female are created in the LIKENESS of G-d, a little less than the Angels.

It is from the lineage of SETH derived the shoots of enos,cainan.mahalaleel.Jared,Enoch, methusalah..Lamech to PROPHET NOAH .

And Noah had three Sons - Ham ,Shem and Japhrth.

And through Ham came the Cush,Mizraim ,Phut and CANAAN. ( latet dowm the era of the Judges and Kings of the Hebrews , the lands were claimed by the Children of Shem ).

And the son Japheth were Gomer, Magog.Madai,Javan,Tubal,Tiras.Meshech and tiras.

It is these three Peopel of Hamm Shem and Japheth that buid the 'TOWER of BAble "

So we have :

1. the Hamitic ( Africa and Arabian )

2. Semitic (Assyria UR, Persians,Chaldeans,Aremenians,Syrians... that derived AGRAH, ISAAC,Jacob/ Israel and the twelve tribes.Reuben.Simeon,Levi,Judah,Issachar,Zebulon,Joseph'Benjamin,Dan,Naphtali,Gad.Asher all went to slavely into EGYPT.. tehn you got Moses,Joshua,The ear of the Judges,King Saul, King David, King Solomon-then the revolt Jeroboam and Rehoboam - the Northern Kingdom and Kingdom of Judah.

3. Japhetic. __________________________________________________________________________________________

Note : The Northern Kingdom and Southern Kingdom consist of 10 TRIBES of Israel.

1. The Northern Kingdom ( ten Tribes- their capitol is Samaria. taken captive by ASSYRIA 2. The Southern -Two Tribes = Judah and Benjamin. :-)Taken Captive by Babylon. 3. The Southern Kingdom is recorded in EZRA,NEHEMIAH,HAGGAI,ZECHARIAH,AND MALACHAI. 4. After Malachi, The Persian Period,The Greek period, the period of Jewish Independence.The Roman Period, the Maccabees revolt.

So you see it is through Adam- SETH you see the flow of the whole lineage of Israel that you see in ISRAEL TODAY .

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Prophets of the Northern Kingdom  :

1. Ahijah 2. Elijah 3. Micaiah 4.Elisha 5.Jonah 6. Hosea 7. Amos. 8.Oded

The Prophets of Southern Kingdom -JUDAH :-)

1, Semaiah 2. Iddo 3.Azariah 4.Hanani 5.Jehu 6. Eliezer 7.jahaziel 8.Zechariah 9.Isaiah. 10.Micah 11. NaHUM. 12 jOEL 13.jEREMIAH 14.hABAKKUK 15.zEPHANIAN 16. eZEKIEL 17.dANIEL 18.oBADIAH 19.hAGGAI 20. zECH 21. mALACHI

tHANKS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.20.179.147 (talk) 07:28, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Most of this is not really relevant, this article is not about all the sons, daughters and descendants of Adam, but only about Cain and Abel. However, I would agree that the opening sentence currently suggests that they were Adam and Eve's only sons, so I'll remove the "the". - Lindert (talk) 13:36, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

French interlanguage link

The best corresponding French article is fr:Caïn. I was trying to add the link to that article to the interlanguage links, but I get the following message:

An error occurred while trying to perform save and because of this, your changes could not be completed.

Clicking on "Details gives me further:

Edit not allowed: Site link [[frwiki:Caïn]] already used by item [[Q205365]].

This message gives the editor no idea what to do about it. Despite the appearance, Q205365 is of course not an article, and can not be reached by entering it like an article name in the search box. Since I don't have the time now to further investigate this, I'll just post it here. — Sebastian 16:47, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that multiple interwiki links cannot point to the same article. fr:Cain and Able already links here so fr:Cain cannot also link here. That has the answer I got at the help desk. Hope that helps. meshach (talk) 23:38, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't think there ever has been an article with that mixture of French and English text - and at least now fr:Caïn et Abel is only a short dab, with no iw links whatsoever. On the other hand, fr:Caïn indeed seems to be the best reference here - and it iw-links to the Cain section in this article, bypassing the new iw links system. This seems as one of the occasions where the new iw linkage system isn't totally suitable. JoergenB (talk) 22:20, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

This article is written to make the story appear non-fiction.

Examples: "Cain was the first human born and Abel was the first human to" "Known for: First murderer in human history" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.222.18.51 (talk) 17:43, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

The "mythology" notice was removed from the first sentence, in order to make the article more neutral (vide supra). The idea is that that first sentence clearly expresses the context - the narrative in Genesis - and leaves to the reader to decide whether this is a myth and/or facts. However, I fully agree that the text under the picture, declaring him to be the first murderer in history, is rather biased in the other direction. It clearly elevates the Genesis narrative to be considered as covering factual history. In the text proper, similar formulations are not such a great problem; it should be clear from the context that it is the narrative that is described, not the actual independently verified facts.

I'll try to npow the text in the image box. JoergenB (talk) 22:41, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Remove paragraph?

Can we remove the following passage? It seems to have been written by someone who was fighting a losing battle with the English language: "In a narrative 'How the hope arise', which is one of the three theological virtues, is reported: 'The heavenly roses and all the birds and butterflies asked: 'Where is a new bloom which pacifies so gorgeously ?"" and furthermore a song for Awan, who later became the wife of Cain, is narrated: 'On the mountain is a small house, in which are two windows. She sits in one of it and waits for her favorite. You're a heavenly flower, the world loves you. I love you and nobody else. Awan, Awan soul and heart I love you and nobody else. And she herself, that mother did not know, picked flowers and gave it to her beloved. And these flowers will never wither what dear gave as a gift to beloved'." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.235.212.17 (talk) 13:18, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the problem! However, please sign contributions to talk pages, by pushing the "signature" button (if your editor has one), or by writing four 'twiddles' in a row (like this: ~~~~)!

The text was added approximately a month ago, here. As you note, it is written in very poor English. (The contributer is living in Austria, according to the user page.) The text also is unsourced. However, it is not self-evident that it should be removed; if the English is improved and adequate sources added, it could well be a good article contribution.

There is also the question of where to put the text. The editor refers to Christian virtues, but inserted the text in a section about the narrative in the Jewish Midrash.

Either you or I (or someone else) could improve the language - provided there is an adequate source to the passage. Thus, in the first place, we should ask for sources, The most efficient way to do that is by means of a template. JoergenB (talk) 23:53, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Removed. The insertion broke up the flow of the sourced material, was itself unsupported by sourcing, and was unrelated to the material it was injected into.
Cheers. —Telpardec  TALK  05:07, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Cain's response to his curse

I looked through this page and the page on the curse and mark of Cain, and in neither place did I see any reference to Cain's response to God's sentence which led to his being marked. This should appear at least in one of the articles if not both as it is a big point in the story: God placed a mark or sign on Cain in specific response to Cain's fear that anyone who met him would kill him. One particular point is that the word Cain used when he said his punishment is too great can mean both punishment and transgression, leaving uncertainty as to whether Cain was simply complaining that his sentence was unbearably severe or saying that the guilt and weight of his crime is more than he can bear. This has been questioned by theologians, and is a part of the debate as to whether the mark of Cain was meant as a further sign of condemnation to a sinner, or graceful protection to one who repented. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.30.50.240 (talk) 22:22, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Cain as Noah's ancestor

Genesis 4:17-18 - Cain and his wife had a son and named him Enoch. Then Cain build a city and named it after his son (Erech/Uruk/Unuk(sumerian)). Enoch had another son named Irad...

ok, so this passage and those that follow indicate that Cain is the ancestor of Noah, not Seth... it also states that Cain founded Erech, or modern day Iraq...

although, it doesn't specifically mention Noah as the son of Enoch in this passage, it can be inferred from history and is completely contrary to the account of Genesis 5.

the lineage is as such in each case:

Adam/Eve > Cain > Enoch > Irad > Mehujael > Methushael > Lamech > Noah (lifts the curse on the land brought about by Cain)

Adam/Eve > Seth > Enosh > Kenan > Mahalalel > Jared > Enoch > Methuselah > Lamech > Noah

history has been altered/fabricated in the Genesis 5 account... it completely rewrites the Genesis 4 account...

either: Seth (the son Eve never had) is simply a metaphor for Abel... and later Enosh...

or: Cain is simply a metaphor (and the son Eve never had)... this explanation seems unlikely...

why? because we have the entire history of Cain, the founding or Erech, etc... but we have nothing on Seth... no history what so ever...

also, neither do we have a history for Methushael (Genesis 4 version), but we have one for Methuselah (Genesis 5 version)...

70.48.210.219 (talk) 07:05, 24 June 2014 (UTC)