Talk:Libya: Difference between revisions
→Libya under Gaddafi revert: new section |
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::[[User:E3|E3]] ([[User talk:E3|talk]]) 18:50, 4 June 2014 (UTC) |
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== Libya under Gaddafi revert == |
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At 06:46, 1 July 2014 Bgwhite (talk | contribs) . .Removed what s/he described in the edit summary as: "POV edits. Remove 2009 Gaddafi statement... Not about Libya, but what Gaddafi purposed, also POV. Keep this about Libya and summation. This has already been argued to death at :Libyan Civil War) |
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The relevant section is headed "Libya under Gaddafi". Gaddafi's policy statement for Libya is therefor within that topic, nor is it POV. Whatever has been "argued to death" in a separate article is irrelevant to the present Libya article, which is the main overview article and as such has precedence. Moreover, edit summaries are not the appropriate place for discussion. If Bgwhite wants to argue, let him or her argue and gain consensus in the Talk place here, which Bgwhite has not done, thereby encouraging an edit war.[[Special:Contributions/41.134.206.2|41.134.206.2]] ([[User talk:41.134.206.2|talk]]) 18:58, 1 July 2014 (UTC) |
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Lead rewrite
The lead currently summarises the geography of the country, its economy and development and recent (2011-) history. It needs to be expanded with a summary of Libya's history, its culture and demographics (including religion and ethnic groups). -- Hazhk Talk to me 22:42, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- I suggest the geographical stuff in the lead be moved to the Geography section and a short summary of that (Geography) section then be used to replace the moved text. Same applies to other content in the lead, which I suggest should be moved to relevant sections and lead being reworked accordingly. I will do it if nobody else feels up to the task, but some early consensus on my suggestion would be helpful at this time.41.134.206.2 (talk) 17:17, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
- The lede should summarize the article itself. Dbrodbeck (talk) 18:01, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, that's what I'm saying. User Hazhk above seems to imply the current lead is satisfactory in some respects but needs to be expanded, whereas I'm suggestion the opposite. It needs to be contracted and reworked entirely to be consistent with the relevant rules, which are clear enough. A fair amount of time and effort involved here if lead is to brought up to standard, hopefully without any later edit wars. 41.134.206.2 (talk) 11:54, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
- The lede should summarize the article itself. Dbrodbeck (talk) 18:01, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
Should there be part of the page talking about the Green Resistance? I ask because they seem to be a major political and military presence in Libya. They have ambushed convoys, raided bases, brought entire cities such as Bani Walid under their control,assassinated high ranking government officials, and bombed many targets. They claim to control most of southern Libya. They also claim to have 90'000 combatants amend the support of the majority of Libyans.Red and black partisan (talk) 18:49, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- Of course there should be, and not just that, the whole article embraces the idea that Libya was somehow "liberated" due to the events that started Feb. 11, instead of being re-occupied. That should be corrected since no "liberation" of any sort took place. The Great Socialist People’s Libyan Arab Jamahiriya has a majority of the people to back her up (which laready proofs the idea of a 'liberation' of Libya to be completely false and in contrast with the facts). Robheus (talk) 19:16, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
New population statics
The Libyan Bureau of Statistics and Census has lunched new statistics about rates in Libya
http://bsc.ly/index.php?P=vf&sec_Id=17&dep_Id=6# — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inkpens Spraypaint (talk • contribs) 16:15, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
hello — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.69.171.226 (talk) 01:48, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Feb 11 "revolution" -- liberation or occupation?
There is clearly a big fog about the events that took place in Libya since this so-called Feb.11 "revolution", which is cited in the article as being a "liberation" (instead of a more proper designation as "occupation" as many of those so called rebels were foreign fighters, paied for by Qatar, most of them from Al Qaeda and clearly had an imperialist agenda in overthrowing one of the last remaining socialist states)[1].
Clearly, such approaches are very biased, and reflect the western imperialist media propaganda, but are not very well founded on evidence on the ground.
The new "government" has not and will not succeed in controlling the country. Instead rebel militias are de facto controlling the country. The government services have collapsed, causing breaks in electricity deliveries, water deliveries, and so on. Basic security is lacking, due to militias that don't operate under governmemnt control. Oil production never recovered to the pre-2011 levels. De facto the east part (Benghazi) has formed her own oil companies and is no longer part of Libya.
Democracy in Libya is just a farce and part of western media propaganda. Libya today is more like a failed state controlled by rival militias.
The Green resitance are still fighting, esp. in the south, and in many cities all over Libya the Green Flag has been raised. Robheus (talk) 19:16, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
- There is serious confusion of terminology in the article sections titled "Revolution" and "Post-revolution era". As the preceding section ("Independence" etc) makes clear, the 'Al Fateh' Revolution took place in 1969, and Gaddafi was "leader of the revolution". It follows therefor that the 2011 armed rebellion / insurgency / uprising was a counter-revolution. I propose changing the section title "Revolution" to read "Counter-revolution" or "2011 Insurgency" or "Rebellion". Anyone have any objection? 41.134.206.2 (talk) 19:36, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
- What any of us think is really not at all important. What is important is reliable sources. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:04, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
- There is serious confusion of terminology in the article sections titled "Revolution" and "Post-revolution era". As the preceding section ("Independence" etc) makes clear, the 'Al Fateh' Revolution took place in 1969, and Gaddafi was "leader of the revolution". It follows therefor that the 2011 armed rebellion / insurgency / uprising was a counter-revolution. I propose changing the section title "Revolution" to read "Counter-revolution" or "2011 Insurgency" or "Rebellion". Anyone have any objection? 41.134.206.2 (talk) 19:36, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
- Is it necessary to source a heading? (Reason for proposed change is self-evident and elaborated above, (i.e. to replace inaccurate and misleading heading). 41.134.206.2 (talk) 20:48, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
- 2011 Revolution is fine. Calling it a 'counter revolution' is a violation of NPOV it seems to me. It has been called a revolution in a lot of reliable sources as well. For clarity's sake saying 'post 2011 revolution' rather than 'post revolution' is fine I think. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:53, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
- Is it necessary to source a heading? (Reason for proposed change is self-evident and elaborated above, (i.e. to replace inaccurate and misleading heading). 41.134.206.2 (talk) 20:48, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
- If by "a lot of reliable sources" you are referring to the dominant narrative purveyed by Western mainstream mass media based in NATO-member states, then IMHO we are possibly dealing here not so much with NPOV as with some kind of systemic bias. It is worth noting that while those media consistently favour the word "Revolution", the insurgents are somehow never referred to in Western mass media reports as "revolutionaries" but rather paradoxically as "rebels". Moreover, "revolution" implies a clear ideological imperative, whereas as events have proved, the 2011 revolt lacked any cohesive political ideology and was driven largely by the imperatives of radical Islamic religious fundamentalism.
- The only academic study of the 2011 events that I'm aware of, written by an reputable expert in the field, does not use the word "Revolution" at all, but refers instead to "uprising". [2] So, I'm going to go with the expert's terminology, rather than be influenced by the gutter-Press. 41.134.206.2 (talk) 16:22, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
- PS: the academic source referred to above is Kuperman, Alan J. “Lessons from Libya: How Not to Intervene.” Policy Brief, Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, Harvard Kennedy School, September 2013. Published in summer 2013 issue of journal International Security.
- I intend to use this source in the article once I've figured out how to do citation markup. (Newbie. Learning curve. Thanks for your patience). 41.134.206.2 (talk) 17:40, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
- We go by the 'mainstream narrative' that is how it works. I would like others to comment if possible. I don't have much of a problem with the term 'uprising'. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:09, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
- I intend to use this source in the article once I've figured out how to do citation markup. (Newbie. Learning curve. Thanks for your patience). 41.134.206.2 (talk) 17:40, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
- The "mainstream narrative" in the Western society of nations is not necessarily the same "mainstream" in other parts of the world. If we go only with the Western narrative (as reflected in the present Libya article) then IMHO that would be in violation of NPOV. Note that the reference sources cited in the article are nearly all from Western sources, to the exclusion other, non-Western reliable sources available in English language translation. But enough of this for now, in the absence of further commentators to build consensus. 41.134.206.2 (talk) 23:11, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Possible copyright problem
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This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa (talk) 00:55, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Government
Considering the Libyan parliament was sacked by a rogue general who now presents himself as the head of a Libyan version of SCAF, I think we should probably note that the government of Libya is disputed in the infobox and article. -Kudzu1 (talk) 01:06, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
- Libyan parliament has not been "sacked". Parliament building was attacked a couple of times by Hafter forces, and current parliament moved to a "safe" venue somewhere else, as yet not attacked, but who knows what's to happen next. Considering the present, volatile situation, we should avoid trying to report the non-encyclopeadic news as it unfolds. Rather wait for the dust to settle in the fullness of time. 41.134.206.2 (talk) 12:04, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
- Given that Libya today is a de facto failed state with no functional government, with three different "prime ministers" claiming legitimacy, and with numerous rival Islamic militias vying with each other for military-political control, I suggest the "Government" section be scrapped for the time being. Whatever can be salvaged should be moved to "post-2011 uprising" section and brought suitably up to date. 41.134.206.2 (talk) 21:10, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
- Libyan parliament has not been "sacked". Parliament building was attacked a couple of times by Hafter forces, and current parliament moved to a "safe" venue somewhere else, as yet not attacked, but who knows what's to happen next. Considering the present, volatile situation, we should avoid trying to report the non-encyclopeadic news as it unfolds. Rather wait for the dust to settle in the fullness of time. 41.134.206.2 (talk) 12:04, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Berber
I do this edit, because the "Berber language" is not official, to be added along with the Arabic language
Secondly, all the Libyans speak Arabic (Libyan dialect), and there are no other languages used --41.254.31.59 (talk) 08:20, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- Hello Madam / Sir,
- First of all, the text you have removed does not state that the Amazigh name is the official name; that is indeed acknowledged. It merely states how the indigenous Amazigh populations refer to the country, which in turn brings me to the next point.
- The statement you are defending, i.e. "all the Libyans speak Arabic (Libyan dialect), and there are no other languages used" is at best an uneducated guest, and at worst a very biased description. As a matter of fact, sizeable Amazigh communities exist in Libya, and they use multiple linguistic varieties, including Nefusi and Tamahaq. You yourself have removed previously sourced information about the presence of these languages in Libya. Please refrain from doing so in the future and commit yourself to Wikipedia's standards of Wikipedia.
- If you happen to be genuinely unaware of the fact that there actually are Amazigh-speaking Libyans, you could look up the names of known Amazigh performers such as Ali Ftis, Danya Ben Sassi, and other. You could as well check Libyan Amazigh media such as Libya Ibraren, and equally check that a Google search, google.com/search?q="berber"+"libya", requiring both words to appear returns around 3.5 billion entries, which is itself a significant return. You may also refer to previous events where Amazighs required the language to be official.
- To summarise, I will be reverting your edit, and I ask to try to come up with a structure that you find suitable, keeping both names and further specifying that the only current official name is the State of Libya. You could check the example of the consensus achieved about Tunisia. To reiterate, the Amazigh name for Libya is indeed not official, at least for the moment, yet it states how the indigenous Amazigh populations in Libya refer to the country.
- Also, please make sure that your future contributions are written using proper English and with accompanying references.
- Regards
- E3 (talk) 14:46, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- Not official, so do not reverted my edit. And of course, Libya has the Berber, especially Houara (the most prevalent), but they speak Arabic and identify themselves as Arabs --41.254.31.33 (talk) 15:57, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- Hello Madam / Sir,
- I hope you read my previous response, and understood it. It does not help you to omit the same information from the Tunisia page. Please refrain from such behaviour otherwise I will have to report you. I am still hoping we could reach a comprehensive consensus on this.
- Regards
- E3 (talk) 16:27, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- Not official, so do not reverted my edit. And of course, Libya has the Berber, especially Houara (the most prevalent), but they speak Arabic and identify themselves as Arabs --41.254.31.33 (talk) 15:57, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- E3، فلنكتب بالعربية وخصوصاً لدي إعتقاد بأنك عربي، أولاً ليبيا وبقية البلدان العربية (باستثناء المغرب) ليست معترفة باللغة البربرية ولغتها هي العربية لذا هنا في ويكيبيديا الإنجليزية يتم كتابة الاسماء الرسمية (الغير إنجليزية) في بداية المقالة، لذا تعديلاتي صحيحة. ثانياً في ليبيا جميع السكان يتحدثون باللهجة الليبية ولا غيرها. كما أمل أن تكون قد فهمت وألا تصر على أي سخافات --41.254.31.33 (talk)
- Google Translate translates that Arabic answer as "E3,Let to write in Arabic language and especially I have a belief that you are Arabian, firstly the Libya and other Arab countries (except Morocco) is not recognizing the Berber language and language is Arabic, so here in the English Wikipedia is written the names of official (non-English) at the beginning of the article, so my edits are correct. Secondly in Libya all Libyan people speak Libyan dialect nor the other. I hope you to be understood and not insist on any absurdities". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 20:32, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- @Anthony, I hope from you to solve the problem, a Berber names writing in articles, the Berber is not of their names, and especially what I observed in the English Wikipedia, as "Amazigh" users impose their amendments and administrators are protecting of them edit articles, I will not mention names - (I used Google Translate) --41.254.31.33 (talk) 22:42, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- 41.254.31.33,
- Yet again, please use English and commit to Wikipedia's standards. If you think that you cannot use English, Wikipedia has plenty of other languages where you might feel more confident and contribute in a more efficient way.
- Undocumented claims such as yours, "as "Amazigh" users impose their amendments and administrators are protecting of them edit articles, I will not mention names" are not of any help at all, Madam / Sir. Please either source your edits or refrain from such comments that do not help advance the encyclopedia at all.
- Regards.
- E3 (talk) 11:04, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
- In the article, this (Amazigh: ⵍⵉⴱⵢⴰ Libya) and this ⵜⴰⵎⵓⵔⵜ ⵏ ⵍⵉⴱⵢⴰ (Berber) Tamurt n Libya Supposed to removed, because the Berber is not an official language in Libya (Arabic is the official and it is ليبيا), and in Spoken languages Berber and in notes and Amazigh languages in certain western and southern areas. Supposed to removed, because it is incorrect --41.254.31.33 (talk) 14:11, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
- Hello 41.254.31.33 and thank you for your contribution,
- Allow me to reiterate my previous post: "The Amazigh name for Libya is indeed not official, at least for the moment, yet it states how the indigenous Amazigh populations in Libya refer to the country". You may see my previous post for a detailed answer. Reasons for removing an information that is in essence useful and not harmful should be well-established. I have nevertheless removed the Amazigh name from the right panel, as that is reserved for the official name only, and kept the alternative Amazigh name in the introduction. See similar examples previously mentioned and other.
- You seem to contradict yourself about the status of Amazigh within Libya, you have earlier said: "And of course, Libya has the Berber, especially Houara (the most prevalent)" but you claim that they speak (a certain linguistic variety of) Arabic. If you need proof that there actually are Libyans whose mother tongue is not Arabic, you may browse related material on Wikipedia. If you may need further Libyan material in Tamahaq, Nefusi, or any other Amazigh linguistic variety, aside from the examples I have already provided in my previous post, please do feel free to search yourself and / or ask.
- Regards
- E3 (talk) 16:05, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
- E3, There is no hope of the debate with an idiot like you, I need another user (not an idiot like you or Amazigh others, where they left the Arabic version of Wikipedia and distortion of information here and in the French version of Wikipedia), Regards --41.254.31.33 (talk) 16:42, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
- Hello 41.254.31.33,
- Insulting other Wikipedia contributors does not help you with explaining your opinion. You may read the same previously-exhibited points again and aspire to understand and evaluate them objectively.
- Regards
- E3 (talk) 18:50, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Libya under Gaddafi revert
At 06:46, 1 July 2014 Bgwhite (talk | contribs) . .Removed what s/he described in the edit summary as: "POV edits. Remove 2009 Gaddafi statement... Not about Libya, but what Gaddafi purposed, also POV. Keep this about Libya and summation. This has already been argued to death at :Libyan Civil War)
The relevant section is headed "Libya under Gaddafi". Gaddafi's policy statement for Libya is therefor within that topic, nor is it POV. Whatever has been "argued to death" in a separate article is irrelevant to the present Libya article, which is the main overview article and as such has precedence. Moreover, edit summaries are not the appropriate place for discussion. If Bgwhite wants to argue, let him or her argue and gain consensus in the Talk place here, which Bgwhite has not done, thereby encouraging an edit war.41.134.206.2 (talk) 18:58, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- ^ Vishal. "Who are James and Joanne Moriarty? Our story intro". Retrieved 4 February 2014.
- ^ http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/Kuperman%20policy%20brief%20published%20version%202.pdf
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