Talk:Church of England

Scottish Epicopal Church

I have removed the comments about the Scottish Episcopal Church in the introduction for the reason that the original and essentially correct information is that the Church of England is the "Mother Church" of the Anglican Communion. This does not therefore mean that that the Church of England is directly the Mother Church of every church or province which is now part of the communion. Various parts of the Anglican Communion ( such as the Scottish church ) were more directly founded by the American church ( or some other member church ) - but that does not negate the fact the origins of these churches are still historically traced back to the Church of England even if less directly. It should also so mentioned that not all parts of the current Anglican Communion are historically "Anglican" churches as such and therefore their historical connection to the Church of England is even more indirect. Afterwriting (talk) 06:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

No, the American Church was founded by the Scottish Episcopal Church, not the other way around (see Samuel Seabury (bishop)). The Scottish Episcopal Church actually has a quite different and distinct history from the CofE, and while there were many historical influences on it from England, to say it can be "traced back to the Church of England" is simply not correct. I think the term "mother church" is a pretty vague term. However, it is worth clarifying the relationship of the CofE to other parts of the UK and Ireland, as a reader may be confused by this complex history. A short explanation now puts the CofE in context without going into too much detail.Wikidwitch (talk) 16:37, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Spelling of "south-west" and "well-being"

I changed the spelling of "southwest" and "wellbeing" to "south-west" and "well-being" and was very surprised to discover that the change was reverted - twice.

The first time I was told that "southwest" and "wellbeing" are both acceptable and common; however, I don't agree that either is acceptable. To support this view, I note that both the SOED and the COD contain entries for "south-west" and "well-being", but don't record "southwest" and "wellbeing" even as alternative spellings. As the "Church of England" article is written in British English, surely these dictionaries are appropriate authorities.

The second time I was asked who says they are not acceptable and whether I own this article. As I mentioned earlier, the SOED and the COD say so. Furthermore, while I don't own this article, I do have the same editing rights as everyone else - including those who reverted my changes.

I know that this is a trifling matter, but I don't see why we shouldn't get it right, so I will make the changes again. If you decide to revert them please explain your reasoning here. 219.90.172.71 (talk) 13:34, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions and preferences on these matters - but the fact remains that both "wellbeing" and "southwest" are in common use in British English - including British academic publications. In my experience "wellbeing" appears to actually now be the much more preferred British spelling style - especially since the trend in British English is to omit hyphens in most cases. Regardless of your personal preferences - and what the OED might say - both spellings are acceptable alternative spellings so I don't understand why you think that only one spelling is somehow more "correct" or more "British". I am pleased that you realise that other editors have rights to make changes as your edit comments came across as very arrogant and highminded (or should that be "high-minded"?). Anglicanus (talk) 14:49, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

When it comes to matters relating to the English language I'd rather accept the authority of the OED than your experience. I don't think that makes me high-minded. Were you being high-minded when you removed the hyphen from the article about Ruth Gledhill?

219.90.172.71 (talk) 15:18, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I haven't been able as yet to check the latest editions of the OED. However, it is the principal role of dictionaries to reflect the meanings of words and their spelling - not to dictate them.

The following recent articles are all published in The Independent, an established and quality British newspaper. They should know a few things about what is currently acceptable British English spellings with regards to your insistence of what is considered "incorrect" and "unacceptable" spelling. All these articles use the spellings in the article and also in the article's and/or webpage's headline:

1. "Wellbeing": http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cameron-defends-wellbeing-measure-2143595.html

2. "Southwest": http://www.independent.co.uk/extras/indybest/outdoor-activity/the-50-best-festivals-1972523.html?action=Gallery&ino=48

3. "Longstanding": http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/the-iiosi-green-list-britains-top-100-environmentalists-958711.html?action=Gallery&ino=55

Anglicanus (talk) 09:39, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Early History and References

Hi there. Reading the article I see little reference to reliable sources. From the current text it looks like the Church of England was an established institution with it's cannons and dogmas, head(s) and history. Looking at the history section this does not show anything about it and has 0 references. Could you please help develop the article so we see if there was any such institution "Church of England" at the early period. The history of Christianity in Britain is 1 thing but putting it as history of the Church of England is totally another. Comentatorr (talk) 11:23, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

How can you distinguish the history of the Church of England from the history of the earliest Christianity in England? The earliest Christian communities in England evolve into the Catholic Church in England, then comes the English Reformation and the Catholic Church in England embraces reformed teaching and rejects papal authority, therefore we have the Church of England we know today. By all means, add sources. Ltwin (talk) 18:16, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Ditto, the above. Not clear what you're getting at Comentatorr. Timothy Titus ^{Talk To TT} 03:44, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Number of members

It seems odd to count church members by the number of baptized members, as this is not necessary--in fact almost certainly--not representative of those who actually self identify as Anglican. An increasing number of people in England have become secular or atheist, many of whom would have been baptized in the C of E. Their website (http://www.churchofengland.org/about-us/facts-stats.aspx) says that 1.7 mil go to church at least monthly, and almost 3 mil attend Christmas services. It seems doubtful then that 27 mil identify with the C of E but I'm having trouble finding stats that distinguish between Christians in national surveys and the church's own which aren't specific in this regard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kilkeel (talk • contribs) 18:58, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Zionism/Restorationism - for or against?

Given its long and significant contribution to Restorationism, the sharp recent Anglican turn towards an official Anti-Zionist position has drawn strong criticism, I have referenced these comments.Cpsoper (talk) 21:04, 2 August 2014 (UTC) An editor has removed this section without adequate explanation, it has been restored. Cpsoper (talk) 17:37, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Do you have any NPOV references that state the C of E is anti-Zionist? It is common for Zionists to accuse those opposed to Israeli government policies of being anti-Zionist or even of being anti-Semitic. The Board of Deputies (presumably of British Jews) is hardly a neutral source. The formerly pro-Nazi Daily Mail is rarely a reliable source. Dabbler (talk) 18:17, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Both Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism are common, and the sources document them amply w.r.t. CoE. Neither the Board of Deputies nor the DM is prone to making such claims lightly. You have removed well-sourced claims. Please examine the evidence cited if you contest this. Cpsoper (talk) 19:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The Daily Mail article is a vitriolic and racist opinion piece by Melanie Phillips who is a strong supporter of Israel. It does not quote any independent and reliable sources. The Board of Deputies are, as I have already pointed out, hardly an independent and neutral source for facts. They reflect Israeli government opinion which is not even the same as Israeli opinion. Dabbler (talk) 22:34, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Of course Dabbler is absolutely correct to revert this silly edit. The EAPPI is an official programme of the World Council of Churches, a body representative of almost every mainstream Christian denomination in the world. There is nothing unusual about the CofE declaring support for such an organisation, neither is there anything unique about it. Nobody has found it odd or objectionable, other than the BoD, and that is why there are no reliable independent sources for an allegation of anti-Zionism or anti-semitism. The material is highly POV and inappropriate, doesn't belong in the article, and has been properly removed. Timothy Titus ^{Talk To TT} 00:54, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Your comments here speak volumes, the implied suggestion that the highly politicised WCC represents most Christians sums it up nicely. The lobbying character of EAPPI, and its involvement in BDS was referenced from its own literature. Nevertheless if you insist on excising accurate and well sourced criticism from wikipedia, your sin will find you out sooner or later. Cpsoper (talk) 09:34, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

"COE" redirect

I'd expect COE to redirect to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe or at least to point to a disambiguation page. C of E is more common than COE for the English Established Church, and COE is in widespread use. https://www.google.com/search?q=COE&ie=UTF-8 YusufAlBinVeryNaughty (talk) 14:48, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Disgraceful reason why the "Church" was started

I won't reiterate what I've already written on the Talk page for the Australian Anglican Church, but something needs to be said about why the church was started - i.e. for the sexual needs of King Henry the 8th to SHAG his brother's wife... 110.33.120.196 (talk) 09:54, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

This statement is propaganda and garbage: dates its formal establishment principally to the mission to England by Saint Augustine of Canterbury in AD 597. What a load of RUBBISH!!! King Henry the 8th ESTABLISHED the church, and he was born 1491 and died -1547. How the Church of England can DARE to date back to 597 to one of the church fathers (St Augustine) is a matter of propaganda, and attempt to REWRITE history! As a result of Augustine's mission, the church was ESTABLISHED in England - there wasn't an ALREADY EXISTING church in England that came under the authority of the pope! That's sort of like if the Pentecostals were to say "we date back to to the Upper Room on the day of Pentecost". Yes you do... but so do the Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons.... 110.33.120.196 (talk) 09:58, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

One of the big assumptions here I guess is that the Church of England=church in England, which is simply untrue. The Church of England CANNOT claim to be THE ONLY church in England... 110.33.120.196 (talk) 10:00, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I think you need to study History of the Church of England a bit more. Your initial post is so completely wrong that it rather takes away the credibility of any further arguments that you make. Dabbler (talk) 12:44, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm afraid User:110.33.120.196 you show a stunning ignorance of English Church history. As Dabbler correctly states, your initial statement is so far off the mark as to make anything else you say irrelevant. Timothy Titus ^{Talk To TT} 13:05, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Rather than using Argumentum ad hominem stating a generalized "ignorance" of English Church history, why don't you point out what is wrong with the statement "The Church of England was established because King Henry the 8th wanted to shag his brother's wife"

I think I'll let the article speak for itself: "Initially prompted by a dispute over the annulment of the marriage of King Henry VIII to Catherine of Aragon, the Church of England separated from the Roman Catholic Church in 1534 and became the established church by an Act of Parliament in the Act of Supremacy"

I rest my case :) 110.33.120.196 (talk) 10:36, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually - I won't "rest my case" just yet - this Introduction to the article hasn't made clear WHY this "initial prompting" happened. Yes, King Henry 8 wanted to annul the marriage to Catherine, but why.... Hmm..... Yes, you got it, he wanted to divorce Catherine so he could shag his brother's wife ;) ! Why not leave out the bleeding obvious truth that was pitted right throughout the English magazines when this story first broke out ;) ? Trying to rewrite history to suit a church whose pope is a woman (the Queen) - even though they don't ordain women??? 110.33.120.196 (talk) 11:18, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

OK Henry VIII wanted an annullment from Catherine of Aragon BECAUSE she was his brother's former wife and he had been given a papal dispensation to marry her after his brother died. It was the Pope's refusal to annul that marriage that prompted the initial split from Rome. Now do you understand why your comments seem so ludicrous? Dabbler (talk) 14:21, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

There is not one single point of similarity between the position of the Pope in Roman catholicism and the Queen in the Church of England. As Supreme Governor she is essentially "chief lay member" and a figurehead, having no actual authority other than moral and ceremonial roles. There is no Pope in Anglicanism, which is actually one of the chief points of its existence, and even the chief ministerial role (Archbishop of Canterbury) is fundamentally different from Papacy. Also, the Church of England does ordain women. A full third of its ordained deacons and priests are female; it currently has no female bishops, but the legislation is in place for women to be ordained as bishops. Again, your ignorance of the facts is stunning. Your ignorance of Wikipedia is equally stunning if you think we're going to introduce the phrase "shag" into this article; it belongs in articles about carpets, not churches. Finally, go and read about the influences on the English Reformation, which begin about 200 years before Henry VIII was born. The monarchy was powerful in his day, but the English Reformation would have been impossible at the King's whim; it occurred because of the influences of the previous two centuries, and the King's marital affairs were nothing more than a trigger. Get yourself a copy of "The English Reformation" by A G Dickens (Fontana Press) which is an excellent one-volume survey of the topic, and was required reading before commencing Theology at Oxford in my day - which wasn't that long ago, so it probably still is. Timothy Titus ^{Talk To TT} 12:17, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

I think you know what I meant... King Henry divorced his brother's wife Catherine (who as you mention he legitimately married because his brother had DIED... Although this "death" is nonetheless suspicious given King Henry's thirst for blood...), so he wanted this annulment from Catherine because he wanted to shag Anne Boleyn (who as I have referenced below, he confided as a complete slut in the bed)! And his basis? Yes, just like all the Anglicans who appeal to the law, he points to Leviticus and says his marriage to Catherine shouldn't have been allowed in the first place anyway, which (1) shows a ridiculously bad manipulation of the Torah to achieve his sexual means, (2) fails to understand what Christ did on the cross (i.e. fulfil the law); and (3) his own disregard for the Bible, as he ought to have read it first, and not waited until he broke the law and ask the pope to remedy it by annulling his marriage! This is a textbook example of the Spirit of the law vs. Word of the law. He never engaged in premarital sex but nonetheless used multiple marriages to shag a whole heap of women!

You also seem to have a revisionist, rosy view of King Henry. Let me provide a few references about the so called "founder" of your church (remember: he is like the equivalent of the Martin Luther of the Lutheran church, although his own disgusting behaviour is clear purpose for the Anglicans to try to wipe him out of their history, hence he is by no means celebrated as well as Martin Luther- usually the Anglicans try to point to a more wholesome figure like King James who was aptly far more ecumenical than this pathetic King Henry figure - PS this is also a good analogy as Luther was NOT the "very beginnings" of a Protestant revolt, but he was the but-for cause; the same can be said about the Charismatic Movement and Asuza St, Asuza St was a tipping point although general charismatic direction was slowly being built up). So here is how King Henry is described in literature:

• Largely remembered as a bully who executed his opponents (http://www.historyextra.com/feature/tudors/5-things-you-probably-didn’t-know-about-henry-viii)
• Oversaw he destruction of religious buildings and works of art (http://www.historyextra.com/feature/tudors/5-things-you-probably-didn’t-know-about-henry-viii)
• Killed off 2 of his 6 wives (http://www.historyextra.com/feature/tudors/5-things-you-probably-didn’t-know-about-henry-viii)
• England's most married monarch (http://www.historyextra.com/feature/tudors/5-things-you-probably-didn’t-know-about-henry-viii)
• As well as his six wives he had several mistresses and fathered at least one child by them (http://www.historyextra.com/feature/tudors/5-things-you-probably-didn’t-know-about-henry-viii)
• When he persuaded Anne Boleyn to become his mistress, he was shocked by the sexual knowledge she seemed to have, and later confided he believed her to be no virgin (http://www.historyextra.com/feature/tudors/5-things-you-probably-didn’t-know-about-henry-viii)
• Because Anne was pregnant with Henry's child by January 1533 (so again, he had PREmarital sex), a "secret wedding" was arranged for Jan 25, despite henry was NOT formally DIVORCED from Catherine (http://www.aboutfamouspeople.com/article1042.html)
• Although he claims to have been abstinent for six years (1526-1532) when Anne finally succumbed, Amy Licence reports that any suggestion of abstinence seems hard to believe. Amy indicates barely MONTHS after their marriage, Anne became pregnant (indicating premarital sex) - and Henry was already "seeking out other women"
• King Henry had a "lewd life." (http://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/348340/What-really-went-on-in-Henry-VIII-s-bedroom). (On another note, why would a Church have even as a SYMBOLIC figure head, a person, who engaged in a English royal mistress???)
• Suggested illegitimate children include Thomas Stucley, Richard Edwardes, and daughter named Ethelreda, ALL born in the late 1520's (http://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/348340/What-really-went-on-in-Henry-VIII-s-bedroom)
• When Anne failed to give him a son he "plumped" Jane Seymour instead (http://www.historyextra.com/feature/tudors/5-things-you-probably-didn’t-know-about-henry-viii)
• In order to free himself of Anne (so that he could marry Jane), he instructed Thomas Cromwell to devise a way of having her executed, by charging Anne with witchcraft, tacked on adultery, accused of having sex with 5 men in the household. However, the ONLY evidence gathered against her was from a muscian whose testimony was elicited under torture. So she was arrested... (http://www.aboutfamouspeople.com/article1042.html)
• During the later years of Henry’s reign, as he grew ever more paranoid and bad-tempered, the Tower of London was crowded with the terrified subjects who had been imprisoned at his order (http://www.historyextra.com/feature/tudors/5-things-you-probably-didn’t-know-about-henry-viii)
• One of the most brutal executions was that of the aged Margaret de la Pole, Countess of Salisbury. The 67-year-old countess was woken early on the morning of 27 May 1541 and told to prepare for death. Although initially composed, when Margaret was told to place her head on the block, her self-control deserted her and she tried to escape. Her captors were forced to pinion her to the block, where the amateur executioner hacked at the poor woman’s head and neck, eventually severing them after the eleventh blow. (http://www.historyextra.com/feature/tudors/5-things-you-probably-didn’t-know-about-henry-viii)

Do you now understand why the King Henry is one of the most hated figures of time? He is sexually perverse, a bully, a megalomaniac who murders others to get his way, a narcissist who brutally destroys his opponents, applies the rule of law at his own whim, manipulates the law for his own purposes, and in his later years, depicts traits of paranoid personality disorder. What is even worse is to his enemies, he paraded himself as doing everything in the "name of God", given now that he was the Head of the newfound church. I could not think of a better hydrocarbon to fuel the Richard Dawkins machine. Now what is even worse is this article about the foundation of the Anglican Church omits all of this, and includes none of it, instead depicting him as a mystical godlike figure who was nothing short of a goody two shoes!

You raise good points regarding the Queen being essentially useless, reduced only to a ceremonial figure (the same occurred in politics); and upcoming legislation for the acceptance of women as bishops in England - you need to understand that you have fellow brethren in Australia who are extremist literalist of the bible though! Touché for those good points though!

But I love the "name dropping" you did with "Theology at Oxford in my day" ;) Classic Anglican elitist behaviour, as a type of fallacious "argument from authority" I think you also failed to mention you didn't do a Theological degree at Oxford - you just studied an Arts degree and majored in Theology... Big different mate ;) 110.33.120.196 (talk) 02:37, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

By the way, just a warning to other users about User:Timothy_Titus, if you look on his Wiki talk page, it states that he is a Freemason. How he can dare call himself an Anglican is beyond me! Read this for a biblical perspective on Freemasonary cult: http://www.gotquestions.org/free-masonry.html 110.33.120.196 (talk) 03:26, 28 October 2014 (UTC)