Some questions arising here, after the merger of Waterford City and Co. Councils, is Dungarvan still a county town? What is the difference between "county town" and "administrative centre"?Now during purely discussion and trying to find links, myself and an IP editor are being called "difficult", even though no out come has been reached and no major edit (a tag only by the IP) has happened. Cheers. [[User:Murry1975|Murry1975]] ([[User talk:Murry1975|talk]]) 17:41, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
Some questions arising here, after the merger of Waterford City and Co. Councils, is Dungarvan still a county town? What is the difference between "county town" and "administrative centre"?Now during purely discussion and trying to find links, myself and an IP editor are being called "difficult", even though no out come has been reached and no major edit (a tag only by the IP) has happened. Cheers. [[User:Murry1975|Murry1975]] ([[User talk:Murry1975|talk]]) 17:41, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
:Note also that we have the [[county town]] article, whose section on Ireland simply lists Waterford as the county town, and is also completely unsourced. I think the root cause is that "county town" isn't formally or legally defined, so can mean either "county town of a traditional county", or "administrative centre of a present council area". If the former, the CT is Waterford; if the latter, we'd have two CTs for the merged entity. We should make clear which sense we intend in each article. The linguistic debate about which usage is "correct" is likely to be fraught and twisty, and would lead us down the path of having to obtain reliable sources using that terminology explicitly, when in practice it's very patchy. [[Special:Contributions/79.97.71.180|79.97.71.180]] ([[User talk:79.97.71.180|talk]]) 20:39, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
==British Library images==
As you might have [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2014-10-29/Maps tagathon|seen in the ''Signpost'' this week]], there's currently a drive to go through the million 19th century images released by the British Library last year, and identify all the maps, with a view to their being georeferenced by BL volunteers, and then uploaded to Commons early next year. As of Sunday night, over five thousand new maps have been identified, with 26.5% of the target books looked at -- but [[:c:Commons:British Library/Mechanical Curator collection/map tag status|see the status page]] for the latest figures, and more information.
As you might have [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2014-10-29/Maps tagathon|seen in the ''Signpost'' this week]], there's currently a drive to go through the million 19th century images released by the British Library last year, and identify all the maps, with a view to their being georeferenced by BL volunteers, and then uploaded to Commons early next year. As of Sunday night, over five thousand new maps have been identified, with 26.5% of the target books looked at -- but [[:c:Commons:British Library/Mechanical Curator collection/map tag status|see the status page]] for the latest figures, and more information.
The protests article will overload the 2008–14 Irish financial crisis, and should remain as a separate article. The protests made little difference, the theme was anti-austerity (aren't we all?), and should be recorded as a part of history. Anti-austerity protests has its own "issues".PatrickGuinness (talk) 16:12, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Er, no, its a coatrack article, with OR to link it. Are they ALL anti-austerity? Are they co-organised? Are they linked by common goals? Are they linked by common priciples? Anti-coruption, anti-austerity, anti-government, anti-globalism and more anti's than I care to type, are not a linear form for a stand alone article, they can be mentioned in the relevant articles with relevant weight to their importance. Murry1975 (talk) 16:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We have absolutely nothing on the controversy around the allegations by Mairia Cahill, grand-niece of Joe Cahill, that Sinn Féin/the IRA/Gerry Adams knew of her claim of rape by a leading republican, that she was interrogated by the IRA about the claim, and that the proper authorities were not informed. I asked about including it on the Gerry Adams page, three days ago, but there's not been a single response to date. I could be bold but I'd expect similar results to this if I tried... BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!12:50, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe it's a sign that WP editors are tired of fake wars between Irish republicans and Irish republican-bashers. If you're really that anxious for an argument, I'll take you on. Adding the ongoing controversy to any article would be recentism. When the dust has settled we will see whether the controversy has had a lasting impact on Sinn Féin, the IRA or Gerry Adams. These things can only be assessed in retrospect. In the meantime, maybe you should be over at Wikinews asking why there's no mention of it there. Scolaire (talk) 12:04, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is Polemys IrelandThis is not, but it says it is, (with a lowercase "i" on Ireland too)
My text from the relevant talk page cut and pasted:
Dunum and Domnainn in particular should not be used as they are (I hear somewhere Domnain was not around that time, and I can say factually that Dunum was not only the name of Down, and that Ptolemy did not record it that way. It was the name of many, even then, as recorded by all, and still is, throughout Europe to a lesser degree). It is not the same map at all though it says it is, and the reasons for switching it around and claiming it to be the same thing is not described. So I am inclined to request deletion and replace with the actual map. For instance, I count 10 settlements on Ptolemys map. On this map I count 11, and only four of them the same as Ptolemy, with no explanation.
And I haven't gone over every inch of it, but there are significant differences and omissions. It seems that this map is widely used on early tribes, while Ptolemys original is used only as part of the Irish history template. Let's have more than faith that this is sourced and accurate, or let's use Ptolemy, and describe then any suggested alterations or inaccuracy. I'm a bit uncomfortable challenging this particular map, but it interests me and appears inaccurate, so I want to ask about how it is being done, cheers. ~ R.T.G11:34, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's at File talk:Keltoi Tribes.PNG. I agree, it's not a very good map, although "Keltoi Tribes" is probably more of a problem than "Ptolemy's Ireland". Domnainn, Cruithin and Eamhain Macha are not from Ptolemy, and Eblana is placed at Dublin which almost certainly isn't where it was. Your proposed alternative is not much better as it also places Eblana at Dublin, and the shape of the map bears no relation to the shape of the island either in reality or according to Ptolemy's coordinates. See this link to Bill Thayer's site for the text and a map based on it. I'm sure someone with the appropriate software could whip up something similar for Wikipedia. --Nicknack009 (talk) 13:25, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Looking further at the "Ptolemy's Ireland and Keltoi Tribes", you're quite right that Dunum is put in the wrong place: from Thayer's version of the map it should be roughly in Laois or Kildare. It includes both Ebdani and Blanii, which are two manuscript variants of the same name (Eblani is the more usual version). Concani and Gangani are also manuscript variants of the same name, and so (I think) are are Usdiae and Vodiae. To clarify my earlier comment, Eamhain Macha, Domnainn and Cruithin are early medieval, and it is very clear that the political geography of Ireland changed greatly between Ptolemy's time and then, and while the Irish can be considered Celtic in the modern sense in that they spoke a Celtic language, we can't call them "Keltoi" in the ancient sense.
A better map is certainly needed. I appear to have made a map of Ptolemy's Irish population groups at Protohistory of Ireland#Ptolemy by adding image labels to a blank map (although I no longer remember how), but it doesn't include the promotories, rivers, towns or islands. --Nicknack009 (talk) 13:45, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@RTG: Looking at File:Keltoi Tribes.PNG, I see that it was created by User:Setanta Saki, (formerly Caomhan27). If you want to know the rationale behind it, the best way is probably to ask him on his talk page. Looking at what links to it, in almost every case it is used to illustrate an article – usually small – on one of the tribes referred to. It's caption in each case is some variation on "Celtic tribes in Ireland according to Ptolemy". I would recommend that in each case the file be replaced with the Ptolemy's map file; it is by far the more logical illustration. The caption should also be expanded to say, for instance, "The Gangani are shown in the west of the country". Where a tribe does not appear on the map (I don't see the Iverni, for instance) it should be removed. Similarly, in the Brigantes article, it should be moved from it's current location (a list of settlements in England) to a section that actually mentions Ireland, or removed altogether. I've just discovered that the file you have shown is not Ptolemy's map, but was drawn by Wenceslaus Hollar in the 17th century. Ptolemy's map is shown here, although even that says it was published in Rome in 1490, so it's only a copy of the 2nd-century one. Unless a copyright-free image of the real Ptolemy's map can be uploaded, all illutrations should be removed from the articles on which Keltoi_Tribes.png is currently used.
@Nicknack009: the accuracy of Ptolemy's map is of no importance, since the file is only being used to say where Ptolemy said the tribes and settlements were. I would be more concerned about the accuracy of any alternative map, and the reliability of the sources used to create it. Bill Thayer says of himself, "Obviously, I like to think of myself as a guy with no credentials but writing fairly decent stuff." The standard on WP:RS is somewhat higher than that. BTW, to see how you added the labels to the blank map, just click "edit" above it. Scolaire (talk) 15:31, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I see that. Don't remember actually doing it, and have evidently forgotten how to use using image labels in the meantime. I based it on Philip Freeman's Ireland and the Classical World, which I believe I still have, so maybe I could work up a better map based on that. In the meantime, I think I'll copy my image-labelled map into relevant articles. --Nicknack009 (talk) 15:47, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As I said above, I don't think anything should be shown in those articles. Ptolemy's Ireland was not shaped like NASA's Ireland, so any placing of the labels on the NASA map is pure guesswork. As far as I'm concerned, nothing at all would be better than guesswork. If a copyright-free image of Ptolemy's map could be uploaded, that would be different. But you can't say Ptolemy put this tribe in this place when in fact he put it somewhere on a crazy geometric shape. Scolaire (talk) 16:04, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Guesswork"? It was based on a reliable source, a contemporary scholar who's done the work of trying to relate Ptolemy's coordinates to the actual territory. Don't go around calling other editors' sourced and cited efforts "guesswork". --Nicknack009 (talk) 16:30, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The work of trying to relate Ptolemy's coordinates to the actual territory is precisely that: guesswork. There is no scientific methodology outlined anywhere. The amount of work they've put into it is not a factor. Sorry, I missed the bit where it was based on Philip Freeman's work. As I do not know this work, I cannot comment on methodology. Did Freeman draw a map, and is your map derived from his? If so, then the new template should state that explicitly, instead of just a citation. If not, is it based on co-ordinates provided by Freeman. Again, this should be made explicit in the template. Otherwise, to what extent is it scientific and to what extent guesswork? Scolaire (talk) 16:57, 21 October 2014 (UTC) – edited 17:19, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The entire field of ancient history is based on the interpretation of sources by scholars. Or, as Scolaire has unilaterally declared it, "guesswork". That's it, we'll just have to remove all articles on ancient history from Wikipedia.
Tell me something. You have one map, based largely on Ptolemy but not sourced and with a number of obvious flaws. You bring it here for discussion. I point out there's a better one already in use on Wikipedia, based on and cited to a reputable source, and start using it more widely, and you unilaterally declare it worthless and delete it on sight, without discussion. Explain precisely why the "Ptolemy's Ireland and Keltoi Tribes" map merits discussion, but my map doesn't. --Nicknack009 (talk) 17:36, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Did you post that before you saw my edit to my previous post? I apologized for the earlier misunderstanding and tried to engage with you on specifics. I am genuinely interested in discussing this and would like to arrive at a solution. Answering my questions would be more conducive to discussion than just ranting. In my first post here I said that all illustrations should be removed from affected articles. I never gave any weight to the other image, and never made any attempt to restore it to articles. It was RTG who first brought it here for discussion, not me. Scolaire (talk) 18:00, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It seems I did. Your edit hadn't shown up when I was composing my reply - no idea how I didn't get an edit conflict. Thanks for the apology. And you're right, it wasn't you who brought it here for discussion, and I apologise for getting that wrong. But you still insist on referring to "guesswork", so I will no longer take any part in this conversation. --Nicknack009 (talk) 19:17, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A pity. I think the template is usable – not as it is, but with a little work on the legend. There's not much point in me offering suggestions, though, if you refuse to take part in discussion. It will have to remain unusable and unused. Why that one word makes you so angry I can't imagine. I've never seen it on any list of words to avoid. I'm a historian myself, and I can tell you that when you have researched all your sources, it still requires a considerable amount of g*******k to put your theory together. In any event, I didn't mean it to be insulting and I don't see it as insulting so I can't and won't apologise for it. Scolaire (talk) 22:26, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Dismissing the sourced and cited work of another editor as "guesswork" is not a comment on content, it's an insult. You did not use that sort of language about the creator of the "Ptolemy's Ireland and Keltoi Tribes" map. --Nicknack009 (talk) 17:36, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The "Keltoi Tribes" map looks like pure guesswork to me. You may characterize such a comment as an insult; that is a matter of opinion and it still doesn't justify a personal attack. Scolaire (talk) 17:45, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Re-reading your post now, I saw something I hadn't noticed before. Let me repeat, I did not "use that sort of language" about the creator of the Keltoi Tribes map or about you. My observations were about the images themselves, and the questions they raised about how they were created. Scolaire (talk) 22:41, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This claims to be an accurate description of Ptolemy, with a set of co ordinates, but it's not a map, it's just a plot. ~ R.T.G21:06, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's the Bill Thayer page that Nicknack linked to above. It seems to be the 1490 Ptolemy map reduced to straight lines. It has the same problem as the images of the map, though: they're all copyright. Maybe if somebody else did a freehand copy of the 1490 map, labelled it appropriately and uploaded it to Wikipedia/Commons that could be used. Alternatively, Nicknack's template could be used if it was made clear on the face of it that it is a modern map, not Ptolemy's map, and that the placing of the tribes was based on scholarly interpretation of Ptolemy's written works. Scolaire (talk) 22:26, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Tóraí, would you be knowing of a good source for the Keltoi parts, and be able to do something similar on a blank Ireland map from Commons? Or even confirm the one above and correct the title? It would be a good improvement over several articles I think. But that's Ptolemy anyway unless something from his instructions can be had and be different. ~ R.T.G21:45, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know, Ptolemy only gave a rough description of location of the different tribes relative to features on his map. These features, such as towns and rivers, he identified with coordinates. I didn't add the tribes to the map I created because it would require speculation on my part.
I think we would need to use a published map, such as the first one above, to locate these tribes. A map like mine or the second one above would require some OR if it was to locate the tribes on it, I believe. --Tóraí (talk) 22:11, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Would you be able to put it on the proper coordinates on a map showing its position according to Ptolemy? ~ R.T.G23:07, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You plotted that using coordinates. Those are assumedly coordinates of the actual map, maybe even with similar numberings, so could probably be put on the map in the place Ptolemy said, which is probably not the place of the actual place. I think there are about four maps, 1). a 1467 one, 2). the Torai version, 3). the Torai version superimposed on a map showing both its shape and position in comparision to todays map, and 4). a map of the Keltoi, and maybe even some others in place of 4)., and such a tall order then because it would go for a lot of articles covering a lot of queries,? ~ R.T.G23:53, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Those 4 maybe with a picture of the earliest version of "Geography" text either Hibernia or earlier would be a set as such could go on a good few articles, ~ R.T.G00:10, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@RTG: I wasn't suggesting you upload the Bill Thayer map, I was suggesting you upload the 1490 one – this image, which I previously linked to, or another image such as this one, which doesn't have "rootsweb.com" printed on it). This one is in colour. Scolaire (talk) 18:34, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A 15th-century map of Ireland based on Ptolemy's Geography. The Magnatae are shown in the west of the country
@Scolaire:The colour one is from UCD, even with the brush strokes on it, as a lifelike copy, its copyright is that of the original, i.e, none. I had been thinking of the 1467 one as its date is older and it looks originally coloured, but for no other reason (follow it to Commons and check out the shape of Scotland in the larger map, it nearly touches Holland). You'd really need an accurate translation of the original to make anything more than a preference, ~ R.T.G14:29, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, so there is a file in Commons already which calls itself Ptolemy's Ireland. That's fine. I'll go back to saying what I said originally. In articles on tribes that are on this map it might be added as an illustration if desired. Personally, I don't think it adds anything – in most cases the illustration will be bigger than the article – but if it is to be added it should be small (no bigger than 150px) and It should say exactly what it is. Thus in the Nagnatae article it would be:
[[File:Ptolemy Cosmographia 1467 - Ireland.jpg|thumb|150px|A 15th-century map of Ireland based on [[Geography (Ptolemy)|Ptolemy's Geography]]. The Magnatae are shown in the west of the country]]
Nominated for speed. Only reference a user edited project. Material is already in ROI article. Edit who created also adjust IFS article to link to above. Murry1975 (talk) 14:26, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support Delete. Noted that it adds no useful information, but that the paragraph on "Formation" uses the historic present style of the source[1] from which it is taken ("This site is run by Soren Swigart and Axel Schudak")[2]; the subsection headed "World War 2" would need cleaning up: "...neutrality was on preservation of Irish sovereignty...", "...at series of meetings ..."; the subsection "Republic of Ireland established" also needs cleanup. Qexigator (talk) 22:04, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Some questions arising here, after the merger of Waterford City and Co. Councils, is Dungarvan still a county town? What is the difference between "county town" and "administrative centre"?Now during purely discussion and trying to find links, myself and an IP editor are being called "difficult", even though no out come has been reached and no major edit (a tag only by the IP) has happened. Cheers. Murry1975 (talk) 17:41, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note also that we have the county town article, whose section on Ireland simply lists Waterford as the county town, and is also completely unsourced. I think the root cause is that "county town" isn't formally or legally defined, so can mean either "county town of a traditional county", or "administrative centre of a present council area". If the former, the CT is Waterford; if the latter, we'd have two CTs for the merged entity. We should make clear which sense we intend in each article. The linguistic debate about which usage is "correct" is likely to be fraught and twisty, and would lead us down the path of having to obtain reliable sources using that terminology explicitly, when in practice it's very patchy. 79.97.71.180 (talk) 20:39, 3 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
British Library images
As you might have seen in the Signpost this week, there's currently a drive to go through the million 19th century images released by the British Library last year, and identify all the maps, with a view to their being georeferenced by BL volunteers, and then uploaded to Commons early next year. As of Sunday night, over five thousand new maps have been identified, with 26.5% of the target books looked at -- but see the status page for the latest figures, and more information.
A part that may specifically interest this project is
which currently shows pink templated links for 121 Flickr book pages still to be looked at. (Though there are lots of other parts of the world, still to be looked through as well).
Any help looking through these would be very much appreciated -- as well as the maps (and ground plans) for tagging, you may well also find other interesting or useful non-map views that may be worth considering or uploading for articles on different places in Ireland.
FA
A
GA
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Tóraí, would you be knowing of a good source for the Keltoi parts, and be able to do something similar on a blank Ireland map from Commons? Or even confirm the one above and correct the title? It would be a good improvement over several articles I think. But that's Ptolemy anyway unless something from his instructions can be had and be different. ~ R.T.G 21:45, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
