Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Christianity and Sexuality/Workshop

Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

Purpose of the workshop: The case Workshop exists so that parties to the case, other interested members of the community, and members of the Arbitration Committee can post possible components of the final decision for review and comment by others. Components proposed here may be general principles of site policy and procedure, findings of fact about the dispute, remedies to resolve the dispute, and arrangements for remedy enforcement. These are the four types of proposals that can be included in committee final decisions. There are also sections for analysis of /Evidence, and for general discussion of the case. Any user may edit this workshop page; please sign all posts and proposals. Arbitrators will place components they wish to propose be adopted into the final decision on the /Proposed decision page. Only Arbitrators and clerks may edit that page, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.

Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at fair, well-informed decisions. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being unnecessarily rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator or clerk, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Behavior during a case may be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.

Motions and requests by the parties

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Proposed temporary injunctions

One-revert rule

1) Rather than further full protections, one-revert rule should be enabled. --George Ho (talk) 19:48, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

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Questions to the parties

Arbitrators may ask questions of the parties in this section.

Proposed final decision

Proposals by User:Roscelese

Proposed principles

Describing points of view

1) Wikipedia describes disputes. Wikipedia does not engage in disputes. NPOV does not require, but rather prohibits, that a Wikipedia article documenting a biased point of view be written from that point of view.

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Biased editing

2) Biased editing to promote or favor a third-party institution or entity may exist even in the absence of any financial conflict of interest.

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As a random suggestion, could this be combined with the proposed principle above? -- Euryalus (talk) 02:34, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

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Religions

3) Wikipedia content relating to religion is not exempt from policies such as WP:RS, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV. A primary source issued by a third party may be usable in an article relating to that third party, but does not trump reliable secondary sources - this is true even when the third party is a religious institution. Quotations from primary sources are not inherently more likely to be the best way of conveying their content - this is true even when the primary source is issued by a religious institution. Sources affiliated with third parties are not inherently more reliable because of this affiliation and may be subject to bias - this is true even when the third party is a religious institution. Articles on religion are written in the same way as other articles.

Comment by Arbitrators:

@Roscelese:, the problem with this is it comes too close to being about the content dispute, which is outside the remit of Arbcom. I get what point you're making but not sure it's going to fly as a principle. Other arbitrators might have different views, so I'm not asking you to abandon this proposal - just noting what I see as a challenge it faces in being considered for inclusion. -- Euryalus (talk) 01:59, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

@Roscelese:, don't know, will have a think about it. :) - Euryalus (talk) 04:36, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps trimming this to just the first sentence (with the addition of WP:PRIMARY to the list) will work. That simply states that the usual content policies apply to articles about religion in the same way they apply to other topics. Thryduulf (talk) 15:13, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Euryalus that it may not necessary to be this specific. The general rules cover the situation. DGG ( talk ) 05:38, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

The last remark is in response to some of the behavior I've identified in my evidence section re: use of RCC language rather than normal WP or style guide language (editors not wanting to use "same-sex marriage" because the RCC doesn't believe in it or "gay" because the RCC prefers "homosexual") or adding falsifiable scientific claims that are promulgated by a religious institution (the idea that homosexuality causes AIDS). I'm iffy on the phrasing. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:30, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

@Euryalus: Sure and thanks. Do you see any way of altering it that would make it work, or is it fundamentally not Arbcom's purview? (I'll clarify in this comment that I'm not trying to state as a principle that in any given instance, a source or wording was better or worse - just responding to the stated or implied premise that primary religious sources, quotations, and affiliated sources were better.) –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:21, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

@DGG: Well, this is affirming that the general rules apply when others have disagreed :) But, same question I asked Euryalus - any changes that might make it suitable for inclusion? Thryduulf's suggestion of trimming? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:05, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

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Characteristics of editors

4) The religious affiliation, ethnic identity, gender, or sexual orientation of an editor is not per se a bias. The assertion of bias on these bases may constitute a personal attack. An accusation of biased editing should be provable without reference to these characteristics of any editor.

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I wasn't sure how many things it was relevant to add in this list for applicability to this case alone vs. general application. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:20, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

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Scope of topic area

5) The topic area of Christianity and sexuality is considered to include the intersection of any denomination of Christianity, including religious texts and their interpretation, denominational statements and activities, and actions of religiously affiliated entities, with issues of sexual orientation, marriage, or sexual behavior.

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It occurs to me that this may be a useful principle, especially given the potential for overlap with another arbcom case - abortion. I have not included birth control, abortion, or human reproduction in this text, but I think that it would be good to a) explicitly define those as in the topic area, b) explicitly define those as out of the topic area, or c) explicitly state that their inclusion may be taken on a case-by-case basis by arbs or admins. Please do make suggestions for changes. I'm also interested in figuring out how we can phrase the scope of the topic in a way that covers the disruption that went on in the Singing Nun article without stating that it covers any relationship of any Christian. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:27, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

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Proposed findings of fact

Padresfan94 is a sockpuppet

1) Per evidence here and here, the behavior of Padresfan94 indicates that the user is a sockpuppet.

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Isn't that for WP:SPI to decide? Padresfan94 (talk) 22:20, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

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Disruption by Esoglou

2) Per evidence here, here, here, and here, Esoglou has edited disruptively over a period of several years in order to advance an agenda about Christianity and sexuality, contrary to WP:NPOV. This disruption has included, but not been limited to, misrepresentation of sources, original research, and POV writing, and is consistent with behavior that led to previous sanctions related to Christianity and, sometimes, sexuality.

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Without commenting on the substance just yet, I think this would read better as "Disruption by Esoglou," as you are not suggesting that Esoglou has become disrupted. -- Euryalus (talk) 01:55, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

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@Euryalus: Done, thank you. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:21, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

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Roscelese

3) Roscelese does not edit to further an agenda.

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@Roscelese: - welcome other views but personally unlikely to support a Finding affirming that someone does not do something inappropriate. Otherwise we would be here all day listing everyone's virtues. You're all great people - let's focus on alleged misconduct and how to fix it, not what anyone is doing right. -- Euryalus (talk) 07:42, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

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Might put in a more detailed or specific FOF on my own behavior later on, but certainly no evidence presented would support the claim; in fact only one user, Padresfan94, is even claiming this, and that without any diffs to support it. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:12, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Are you claiming that the time you off-site canvassed a bunch of activists to edit a Christianity/homosexuality discussion was not done to advance an agenda? Padresfan94 (talk) 22:23, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

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Esoglou's inappropriate conduct towards Roscelese

4) Per evidence here, here, and here, Esoglou's past and ongoing behavior towards Roscelese has been inappropriately sexual, included homophobic personal attacks, and focused on the contributor over the content.

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MastCell has submitted a FOF about Esoglou's personal conduct below, but I wanted to add one that referred to 1) my evidence of ongoing troublesome behavior related to the pornographic image and 2) Esoglou's homophobic remarks as well. I'll defer to MastCell on the legal implications of using the word "harassment", although I do think this was obviously the intent. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:31, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Padresfan94 indefinitely blocked

1) The indefinite block customarily imposed on sockpuppet accounts is imposed on Padresfan94.

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This seems like something that can be dealt with at SPI and not here The committee normally does not deal with blocks, only bans. --Guerillero | My Talk 07:40, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

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@Guerillero: I think I've covered why this seems like the better venue (obvious sock behavior but no obvious sockmaster among the many possibles), and proposed a block more because it's what sockpuppets generally get than because I think it is preferable to a ban. Should the proposal be changed to "Padresfan94 is banned"? As I've said before, I reckon existing as a single-purpose account to hound and edit-war is sanctionable on its own, but I do think the obvious sock behavior is relevant. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 07:45, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

• This should be done as a matter of course, despite the difficulty in identifying the sockmaster. Binksternet (talk) 19:50, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

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Esoglou topic-banned 1

2) Esoglou is indefinitely restricted from editing LGBT-related topics, broadly construed. This restriction applies to all pages and namespaces and includes references to the sexual orientation of any user.

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The narrow version. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:02, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

This would solve a lot of the current problems. It leaves Esoglou able to work on other controversial religion topics. Binksternet (talk) 19:52, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

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Esoglou topic-banned 2

3) Esoglou is indefinitely restricted from topics involving the intersection of Christianity with sexuality, human reproduction, and/or marriage, and from topics involving conflicts between Christianity and other religions, all broadly construed. If Esoglou disrupts any other area related to Christianity, he may be further restricted from that area by a consensus of uninvolved administrators at Arbitration Enforcement. This restriction applies to all pages and namespaces and includes references to the religion or sexual orientation of any user.

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@Roscelese: - Without commenting on the substance of the proposed remedy, or whether there is any need for it: the inclusion of "controversial" will cause too much controversy, as its definition is both subjective and dependent on the edit content, rather than the article subject. Also too broad - there may be religious controversies in Christian church architecture, in Hindu iconography, in Aztec social organisation. These are outside this dispute, and no likely Finding of Fact could give rise to a remedy covering these topics. -- Euryalus (talk) 07:38, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm willing to consider a broad topic ban, but unless there is some evidence I've overlooked I see nothing to support anything broader than "Christianity" rather than "religion". I also agree with Euryalus about the inclusion of "controversial". Thryduulf (talk) 11:48, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

@Roscelese: Perhaps "Esoglou is indefinitely restricted from the intersection of "Christianity" with any of "sexuality", "human reproduction" or "marriage", and from "conflicts between Christianity and other religions", all broadly construed." would be a more concrete way of phrasing that restriction I think. Homosexuality is related to sexuality, birth control and abortion are related to human reproduction, and divorce is related to marriage. Possibly some language like "If Esoglou disrupts any other area related to Christianity, he may be further restricted from that area by a consensus of uninvolved administrators at Arbitration Enforcement" would prevent the dispute sprawling. I need to reread the evidence before supporting the listed topics though (I wont have time to do that for few hours). Thryduulf (talk) 18:07, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

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A broader version, per evidence showing that when Esoglou is banned from one topic area, he finds another to continue the same behavior in. Off Dominus's suggestion in the case request. I'm not sure about "controversial" because it's very subjective, but I also don't like trying to predict and enumerate all the places he might go next. What do other people think? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:02, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

@Thryduulf: "Religion" replaced with "Christianity". How would you and Euryalus suggest handling the "controversial" issue without attempting to foresee all possible areas of disruption and/or overbroadly banning constructive edits that may or may not happen? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:31, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

@Thryduulf: Good idea - a few enumerated but broad areas where there's been demonstrable disruption, and an explicit statement that further disruption is in Arbcom's remit due to the editor's past disruption (without having to go through lower steps). I will edit the remedy, with some minor changes to phrasing that IMO do not change the meaning of your suggestion. What is your opinion of adding "any other area related to Christianity, sexuality, human reproduction, marriage, or other religions" and of removing "conflicts between" (resulting in "the intersection of Christianity...with other religions")? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:30, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

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This ban proposal is way to large. In effect it would prohibit him from ever editing any article related to religion. Even removing the "controversial" portion would still prohibit him from even editing the Catholic Church page because somewhere in the article gay marriage and/or abortion is mentioned. If you look at the thousands of pages he has edited, only a few articles end up containing "controversial" edits. In addition I believe the section saying "and from topics involving conflicts between Christianity and other religions, all broadly construed." is just being punitive. This entire article is addressing a narrow area, all edits were specifically limited to that area. Making it this large should require permitting evidence around "conflicts between Christianity and other religions." Honestly as someone who watches where he edits, I rarely ever see him edit in that arena, except in explicitly Catholic articles. Marauder40 (talk) 16:56, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Remedy for Esoglou's personal conduct

4) Sexualized remarks or other inappropriate sexual behavior by Esoglou towards any user, or references by Esoglou to the sexual orientation of any user, are indefinitely fast-tracked to Arbitration Enforcement.

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Without opposing MastCell's proposal of a yearlong ban or going back on anyone's proposal for a topic ban, I also propose this. Thought about adding "if not promptly and sincerely apologized for", not sure whether that's assuming too much good faith and giving too many second chances under the demonstrated circumstances. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:37, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

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Padresfan94 topic-banned

5) Padresfan94 is indefinitely restricted from editing LGBT-related topics, broadly construed. This restriction applies to all pages and namespaces.

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I very much think that a FOF for sockpuppetry and an indefinite block or ban are preferable, but I wanted to put this on the table in case arbitrators decide that a sockpuppet finding or block is not their remit. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:27, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

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Proposed enforcement

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Proposals by User:Dougweller

Proposed principles

Purpose of Wikipedia

1) The purpose of Wikipedia is to create a high-quality, free-content encyclopedia in an atmosphere of camaraderie and mutual respect among contributors. Use of the site for other purposes, such as advocacy or propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, or publishing or promoting original research is prohibited. Contributors whose actions are detrimental to that goal may be asked to refrain from them, even when these actions are undertaken in good faith.

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Neutral point of view

2) Article content must be presented from a neutral point of view. Where different scholarly viewpoints exist on a topic, those views enjoying a reasonable degree of support should be reflected in article content. An article should fairly represent the weight of authority for each such view, and should not give undue weight to views held by a relatively small minority of commentators or scholars.

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Standards of conduct

3) Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users and to approach disputes in a constructive fashion, with the aim of reaching a good-faith solution. Personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, disruptive point-making, edit-warring and gaming the system, are prohibited, as is the use of the site to pursue feuds and quarrels. Editors should also avoid accusing others of misconduct when this is done repeatedly or without simultaneously providing evidence or for the purpose of gaining an advantage in a content dispute. Editors who repeatedly violate these standards of conduct may be sanctioned. Editors who have genuine grievances against others are expected to avail themselves of the dispute resolution mechanism rather than engage in unbridled criticism across all available forums.

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Bias and prejudice

4) An editor must not engage in a pattern of editing that focuses on a specific racial, religious, or ethnic group or sexual orientation and can reasonably be perceived as gratuitously endorsing or promoting stereotypes, or as evincing invidious bias and prejudice against the members of the group.

Editors are encouraged to engage in frank discussion of matters affecting the project, and are encouraged to share even those facts and opinions which demonstrate the shortcomings of the project, its policies, its decision making structure, and its leaders. Such discourse is limited by the expectation that even difficult situations will be resolved in a dignified fashion, and by policies which prohibit behavior such as personal attacks.

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@Roscelese:, included "sexual orientation" as suggested, for the sake of discussion at least. -- Euryalus (talk) 21:49, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

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Under the circumstances, it would seem to make sense to add "sexual orientation." –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:39, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

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The phrase "evincing invidious bias" in the first sentence appears to be very high-brow and as such acts to make this page less accesible to those having English as a second language or for the majority of people who do not have tertiary level English comprehension. I ran the first sentence of 4) through the Flesch readability score and it scored a woeful 2.5 out of a possible 100 for reading ease.

I suggest changing "or as evincing invidious bias and prejudice" to "demonstrating prejudice", as this much simpler phrase implies and encompasses the former while keeping to the principle of plain English. Savlonn (talk) 10:32, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Recidivism

5} Editors will sometimes make mistakes, suffer occasional lapses of judgement, and ignore all rules from time to time in well-meaning furtherance of the project's goals. However, strong or even exceptional contributions to the encyclopedia do not excuse repeated violations of basic policy. Editors who have already been sanctioned for disruptive behavior may be sanctioned more harshly for repeated instances of similar behaviors.

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Role of the Arbitration Committee

6) It is not the role of the Arbitration Committee to settle good-faith content disputes among editors.

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Proposed findings of fact

Locus of the dispute

1)

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Esoglou

2) Esoglou (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has engaged in edit warring, eg. [1][2] and tendentious and pov editing eg.[3]. He has had three topic bans in related areas.[4] [5][6][7].

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2.1 Esoglou has hounded and harassed Roscelese.

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Roscelese

2) Roscelese (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has violated our standards of conduct by edit-warring, incivility, personalising disputes and displaying ownership of articles.

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I'm not in a position to deny it, but, without going "waaah, I was provoked", I think I can nonetheless state that will be somewhat reduced, to say the least, if the agenda-motivated and harassing users are removed. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:27, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

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Padsresfan94

2) Padresfan94 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has engaged in sockpuppetry

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Padresfan94 has violated our standards of conduct by edit-warring, incivility, pov editing and personalising disputes.

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Padresfan94 has hounded and harassed Roscelese

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Dominus Vobisdu

2) Dominus Vobisdu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has engaged in edit-warring.

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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Discretionary sanctions

1) Discretionary sanctions are authorised for...

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I don't see the need. Dougweller (talk) 16:53, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

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@Dougweller: Yeah, I mentioned it on the talk page rather than proposing it here because I wasn't sure. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:27, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

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Scope of standard topic ban

2) Any editor subject to a topic-ban in this decision is indefinitely prohibited from making any edit about, and from editing any page relating to Christianity and sexuality, broadly construed. These restrictions may be appealed to the Committee only after 12 months have elapsed from the closing of this case.

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Esoglou: (remedies)

Esoglou site banned

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I won't support this.

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Esoglou topic banned

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Esoglou admonished

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Roscelese: (remedies)

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I won't support this.

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Padresfan94: (remedies)

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Dominus Vobisdu: (remedies)

Dominus Vobisdu site banned

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I won't support this.

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Dominus Vobisdu topic banned

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Dominus Vobisdu admonished

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Proposals by User:George Ho

Proposed principles

Interpreting sources

1) Interpretations of sources must not violate WP:No original research policy.

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Neutrality and viewpoints

2) Related articles must not be one-sided, which may violate WP:neutral point of view policy.

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Wikipedia is teamwork, not a battleground

3) Wikipedia is not a battleground. In fact, although neither a policy nor a guideline, Wikipedia is teamwork. Even if the topic is controversial, editors must trust each other, not fight till the bitter end.

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Wikipedia is not advocacy

3) Wikipedia is not an advocacy. Neither religion nor sexuality should or shall be exploit for any means of tolerance or intolerance. Wikipedia must be educational, not propagandized.

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Proposed findings of fact

Esoglou fails to remedy his own wrongs

1) Administrators who protected the article did their best to ease the tension amongst editors involved, like Esoglou and Roscelese. However, Esoglou has failed to take responsibility and remedy his own wrongs. Moreover, he has made Roscelese feel harassed by, annoyed by, and resentful toward him. When I discussed things with him, I found him either inconsistent or passive aggressive. He tends to make Roscelese as if she is "trouble". When I had a discussion with Roscelese, I see her as honest although somewhat biased.

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Editors with different viewpoints on homosexuality

2) One sides against sexuality; other sides for it. The way to communicate each other is not well-taught. Our schools have barely or rarely taught homosexuality, especially in the United States. Discussing it appears bothersome to them. Moreover, such poor communication between those with different viewpoints on this has extended to Wikipedia. This troubles me.

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Proposed remedies

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Proposals by MastCell

Proposed principles

Purpose of Wikipedia, Standards of conduct, recidivism, etc

1) Per #Proposals by User:Dougweller above.

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Proposed findings of fact

Esoglou's history

1) Esoglou (talk · contribs) has a long history of tendentious editing on topics related to Roman Catholicism and sexuality, as evidenced by several topic bans related to the subject.

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Proposed, as relevant background. Evidence is here. MastCell ^Talk 19:35, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Inappropriate post

2) In the context of a conflict with Roscelese (talk · contribs), who identifies as a gay woman, Esoglou posted an inappropriately sexualized image of two women to Roscelese's talk page. Despite Roscelese's clear indications that she viewed this image as unwelcome and a form of harassment, Esoglou chose to prominently display it on his talk page for nearly two years as an example of his "sense of humor".

Comment by Arbitrators:

@Esoglou:, fair to say there's some strength in this as a Finding, but I'm keen to hear more from you on this, before considering it further. In passing I'm not seeing the relevance of your point in Evidence that others found it funny - they found it funny as a general image, not as an allusion to a particular editor. -- Euryalus (talk) 21:42, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

@Esoglou:, thanks for the reply, will consider further. I agree it was some time ago. -- Euryalus (talk) 08:51, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

@Marauder40:, to the extent that the image posting is relevant to the case, the question is why it was subsequently poster on Esoglou's talkpage. Was it as described, to continue the inappropriate message to Roscelese but in a different venue? Or because he coincidentally liked or was amused by the image and wanted to show a copy of it regardless of what meaning he had previously ascribed to it in sending it to someone else? Or in less convoluted terms - what's at issue is motivation. Edits viewed in isolation may seem perfectly fine but have an entirely different complexion when viewed in context. One function of this workshop is to consider what, if any, context applied. -- Euryalus (talk) 18:44, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

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@MastCell: I agree if Esoglou had promptly and sincerely apologized then this wouldn't be coming up, but I do also want to re-state, as I stated in the evidence phase, that while my sexual orientation may have been a part of the motivation behind Esoglou's action, it is not the reason, or not the sole reason, it was over the line; it would have also been over the line if I were straight. Note that I submitted a longer and more detailed sequence of events in my evidence. (Moreover, as for the inappropriateness of the image, I think when the person who posted it is splitting hairs in his arbcom evidence over how well the model's underwear fits her, the point's basically been conceded.) –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:58, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

The fact that even in the workshop stage of arbitration and after years of people telling him to stop, Esoglou thinks it's appropriate to make jokes about female editors putting him in bondage is really, really telling. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:31, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Reply to Euryalus. The particular editor that it was an allusion to was myself, the one who was being tied up. If I remember right, my comment was "Is this how you want to tie me up?" I didn't foresee that it would be taken as the deciding factor in having me tied up from editing in an area for six months. Nor that in 2015 the same ill-judged joke would again be advanced as grounds for demanding that I be tied up in yet another area - or indeed from Wikipedia in its entirety, as MastCell proposes below - perhaps in perpetuity. Esoglou (talk) 07:50, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

If this was such a huge deal, why didn't Roscelese bring it up at the time? Why is she waiting until years later to become so offended? Padresfan94 (talk) 22:31, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

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Proposed. Sequence of events is detailed here in evidence. In context, I think the image was well over the line of inappropriate harassment, but I recognize that these sorts of lines are culturally determined and, to some extent, variant. I'm actually more appalled by Esoglou's reaction after it was made clear to him that the image was deeply offensive to Roscelese. Assuming this was an honest misunderstanding, the decent response would be to apologize for having inadvertently offended. A minimally acceptable response would have been to do nothing. Esoglou's reaction was to go out of his way to prominently enshrine the image, which (aside from just being obnoxious) should make clear that his intent was to offend and provoke. I'm not sure whether I would use the term "sexual harassment" here, since that is a legally fraught phrase, but this is grossly inappropriate behavior on any reasonable level and needs to be called out formally as such. MastCell ^Talk 19:35, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I personally think the picture that was posted two years ago was inappropriate. They apologized and were punished for the offense two years ago. I find it very interesting that in one breath an editor is saying they want to be treated no differently then anyone else. In the other breath they are saying that because they are a gay woman they SHOULD be treated differently. This sounds very close to having protected classes of editors on WP. I also find it interesting that Roscelese in effect created a self imposed discussion ban with Esoglou, but continued to edit, revert, and roll-back the person that they refused to have a discussion with. Usually when there is a interaction ban the people are stopped from editing common articles, if a one sided interaction ban the person that is banned stops. You would think a person that refuses to discuss with an editor, shouldn't be reverting that editor. Doesn't that in effect violate one of the primary pillars of WP.Marauder40 (talk) 15:57, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

We're not talking about giving Roscelese "special privileges". We're talking about making sure she has the same privilege that you and I enjoy by default—the privilege of not having personal characteristics like our gender or sexual orientation used to attack us in a Wikipedia content dispute. MastCell ^Talk 18:08, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

So now you are saying that Roscelese should have approval authority on what Esoglou posts on HIS talk page. Just because she is offended he needs to remove it. Sounds like a special privilege to me. There is not right to not be offended by things on WP. The picture itself posted on Roscelese's page can be seen as inappropriate. Not being allowed to post a picture that is in Commons on his own talk page is censorship. If she had a problem with it should could easily have approached an admin at that time, but I doubt they would have done anything about it other then tell her to stay off his talk page. If he had posted something directly referring to her, that would inappropriate. At some point after dealing with Roscelese I posted a quote on my user page that is still there. If she is offended by my posting of that quote do I now have to remove it? No way for you to even know which one it is without going through tons of history. Marauder40 (talk) 18:34, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

@Euryalus: According to the comments on his page when he had it posted, it was because the picture itself amused him, I quote "WARNING THIS EDITOR HAS A SENSE OF HUMOUR THAT OTHERS FIND OFFENSIVE I am keeping this image, which still amuses me, although in 2012 others interpreted it as a laugh not at myself but at another editor who, precisely on its account, got me tied up for a while." Reading into it farther is not assuming good faith. As I said before, if she was offended by the picture, she always had the option of staying off his talk page. It didn't directly reference her. Marauder40 (talk) 18:55, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

As I mentioned in my evidence, it was obvious in context that Esoglou was being intentionally provocative by retaining the image, and even editors sympathetic to him recognized what he was doing and tried to talk him out of it. Esolgou himself recognized that the image was viewed as inappropriate and grounds for a topic ban ([8]) but chose to retain it. This isn't about his "sense of humor". It's a continuation of a personal dispute, and was recognized as such by everyone at the time. MastCell ^Talk 22:49, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Esoglou banned

1) Esoglou is banned from Wikipedia for one year.

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Proposed. I think that the behavior described here, along with the total lack of insight or self-awareness about how his behavior is problematic, is more than serious enough to justify this. MastCell ^Talk 19:35, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Esoglou topic-banned

2) Esoglou is indefinitely banned from making any edit related to Christianity and sexuality, broadly construed.

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Proposed, either in addition to or in place of the time-limited siteban. Between the numerous topic bans and the inappropriate behavior, I don't see how Esoglou could demonstrate any more clearly that he is not capable of editing neutrally and productively in this topic area. MastCell ^Talk 19:35, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

To be clear about the grounds for this proposal: it's based primarily on the long-term pattern of recidivist POV-pushing and tendentious editing, which I think is pretty much beyond dispute. The offensive post on Roscelese's talkpage is a major aggravating factor. I understand that the post was in 2012 (and frankly, it should have been handled more effectively back then), but recall that Esoglou displayed the offending image on his page for the ensuing two years, until early 2014. So this isn't exactly ancient history either. MastCell ^Talk 18:12, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Proposed enforcement

The usual

1) The usual.

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"We hoped for the best, but it turned out like always." -- Euryalus (talk) 21:44, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

@MastCell: I would say so --Guerillero | My Talk 21:59, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

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Proposed. MastCell ^Talk 19:35, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

@Euryalus: Is that ArbCom's official motto? :P MastCell ^Talk 18:09, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment by Esoglou

Much of the above sounds like a lynching party in full cry. Out to string me up this time, not just tie me up.

Even Euryalus, who I am not saying is part of a lynching gang, seems to have decided that my posting of the link to an image that I found amusing and that I associated with efforts underway to tie me up was in reality meant as a reference to the sexuality of the addressee. I was and am unaware of any such intention, but I must suppose that Euryalus knows my mind better than I do. My previous punishment is therefore not enough, and I must now be punished more severely.

I'd love to know what are the jokes that Roscelese sees me as cracking about a "list of editors", including a supposedly female MastCell. They might tickle my offensive sense of humour. I don't even see which of the two persons in the linked image is supposed to refer to her. The one tied up represents me, and it was in relation to me that I found it funny. There is no suggestion that the one holding the mobile phone was in any way involved in tying the other up.

Roscelese is another person who knows my mind better than I do, interpreting as references to her sexuality – as if that were something to be ashamed of – statements that were more generic, such as my remark that English speakers in general do use the word "homosexual", which she wanted to ban in favour of "gay".

So it is proposed to exclude me indefinitely from LGBT-related topics, broadly construed – and everybody else free to cover religion-related topics, in which I am to be banned from a broad area of those related to Christianity, not limited to those that intersect with another field of interest.

I on the other hand make no attempt to counter with a set of proposed principles and remedies. I am inferior on lawyer's skills.

I am perhaps too naively trusting that those in charge of Wikipedia will not declare it right to delete repeatedly the mention of four books and several newspapers that had the "defect" of contradicting one book whose author later admitted that, if he were to write it again, "it would be more balanced, better informed, and less prone to veer off into judgment ahead of sober analysis"; nor will they declare it right to block out, by dint of reverting, all mention of an ex-nun's stating, truly or falsely, that after she left the convent she was not in a homosexual relationship (later research showed that only after 14 years did the relationship begin); nor will they declare it right to insistently report a document's denial that "the sexual behaviour of homosexual persons is always and totally compulsive and therefore inculpable", a denial that a cited reliable secondary source interprets as meaning that "the more compulsive is the disorder, the more reduced is the moral culpability for one's actions", as if the document said on the contrary that, "as homosexual sexual activity is not always compulsive, any culpability that pertains to it is not therefore mitigated by natural orientation" (Roscelese's personal interpretation).

Surely, an encyclopedia that claims neutrality should not lean so strongly to one view that it excludes all mention of a contradictory view. It should not adopt the policy advocated by Roscelese of excluding quotations of the actual texts of Catholic Church documents on the topic of "homosexuality and Roman Catholicism" and admitting only self-invented summaries of them that in her view, but not in that of other editors, indicate their true meaning. She says above that Wikipedia prohibits that an article documenting a "biased point of view" be written from that point of view. In this concrete case, "biased point of view" is a petitio principii condemnation of the Catholic Church's teaching on homosexuality and homosexual persons (two different matters, which Roscelese does not always distinguish) and, accordingly, documenting or illustrating or explaining the Church's point of view is admitted from dissident and hostile sources, but not from any that agree with the Church.

Roscelese, above, suggests objections have been raised against using terms such as "same-sex marriage" and "gay" in the article. There is no objection in principle. What is questionable is insistence on substituting them for more precise terms used in an official declaration that is being reported. An example concerns the 1997 USCCB statement that spoke of parents discovering that an adolescent or adult child of theirs experiences same-sex attraction, adding that "having a homosexual orientation does not necessarily mean a person will engage in homosexual activity". The article has through undiscussing persistence been made to represent this statement as addressed to "parents of gay and bisexual children" – the word "bisexual" appears nowhere in the document, and I cannot even find the concept there – rather than to parents of a son or daughter "found to be of homosexual orientation". This is one of the points in the "wrong version" that Roscelese has succeeded in establishing as the text to work on and that I have now been endeavouring to fix only one step at a time.

It is well known that a certain comic said he wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would accept people like him. If Wikipedia will accept only people who want it to present the Catholic Church's teaching as "a biased point of view", who else would want to join?

I propose no sanctions against Roscelese. I have no personal animosity against her. I would just like her to amend her editing ways.

I see she has now returned to unilaterally, on matters on which we disagree, making edits, including one about which MSGJ told her: "This is not a clear consensus." She will presumably claim, as before, that her edits, being in possession, cannot be disturbed without complete consensus on an alternative.

I would have liked to spend more time on this writing, so as to make it clearer but, now that I have at last got down to the distasteful task, I had better upload it and not wait till the last moment. Esoglou (talk) 21:02, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Proposals by User:Padresfan94

Proposed principles

Wikipedia is a place for collegial disagreement and discussion

1) Wikipedia:Discussion can only work if all parties are open to respectful discussion with all other parties. Parties cannot be precluded from discussion because of their beliefs.

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Proposed findings of fact

Roscelese has abused tools during her edit warring

1) Per evidence from Callanecc and evidence from myself Roscelese has abused Rollback at least twice and Twinkle at least fifteen times while edit-warring on this H&RC alone.

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Roscelese has displayed WP:OWNERSHIP and WP:TE

2) Per the preponderance of diffs on the evidence page: Roscelese believes that she owns the page H&RC. She has not participated honestly in the discussion process, and at times she has refused to participate in the discussion process at all, while still continuing to edit-war on the page. After each protection of the page, she returned to revert it to her preferred version, usually as the first person to edit the page again.

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Roscelese has edit-warred for year across social-topics

3) Roscelese has been blocked 6 times now, almost entirely on social-topics. She has also been the subject of a marathon-number of ANI/3RR reports again, mostly on social-topics. She also attempted to canvass social-issues activists off-site to influence Wikipedia discussions.

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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Roscelese should be relieved of her Rollback and Twinkle privileges

1) After abusing each of these function multiple times in edit-wars, Roscelese should be relieved of the use of these tools, as is proscribed on the introduction pages for these tools.

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Roscelese should be topic-banned from H&RC, narrowly construed

2) This is clearly a very emotional topic for her. It has been a repeated problem area and will continue to get her in trouble.

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Roscelese should be topic-banned from Christianity/Homosexuality article, broadly construed for 1 year

3) Roscelese was a skilled editor who created many new pages but her present involvement in this topic has led to an inexcusable amount of drama and to 6 different blocks being filed against her. That will just keep going unless corrected from the outside.

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Topic-bans all around

4) I would rather not deal with Roscelese ever again. I think it would be for the best for both of us and for our work on the Encyclopedia if we never crossed paths again.

I would also like to suggest that Roscelese, Esoglau and Dominus Vobisdu all have 1-year interaction-bans logged against each other.

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