User talk:Seligne

Welcome!

Hello, Seligne, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• The five pillars of Wikipedia
• Tutorial
• How to edit a page and How to develop articles
• How to create your first article (using the Article Wizard if you wish)
• Simplified Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{help me}} before the question. Again, welcome!

Also, I wanted to notify you of the plan to migrate Wikitravel's content and community over to the Wikimedia Foundation, since you have been doing such good work there! We have a Migration FAQ up at Wikivoyage [1], and a Request for Comment at Meta. Please note in that FAQ that contributions may be lost, that were made to the English version of Wikitravel after 2 August. It will be possible to add your changes manually, but if you like, you can send me a list of articles you would like to back up one last time, to preserve your most contributions history in those articles. --Peter ^Talk 16:09, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Thai transcription system

Hi there. I saw that you sometimes changed the spelling of Thai dishes in the articles that you edit. It is advised to use the official Royal Thai General System of Transcription system for transcribing Thai here on Wikipedia. You can look up many of the names in List of Thai dishes and List of Thai ingredients. A useful website for transcribing Thai script into Latin script is www.thai-language.com. The "Bulk Lookup" works really well but you will have to click through to the specific word to get the RTGS spelling. The "Generate Phonemic Transcription for Thai Text" into RTGS doesn't work so well due to the fact that RTGS is based on phonemic Thai. Regards, - Takeaway (talk) 03:28, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for the feedback and the references. I will endeavour to use RTGS in spite of my hatred of it. 555! Seligne (talk) 03:53, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

• Please do try as there are too many different systems around, and too many personal systems too. It's actually once you start using RTGS, and it's especially easy if one knows the (very systematic) German spelling rules on which this system seems to have been based (from a personal observation). The only things that in normal usage speak against RTGS is its lack of tonal markers and its lack of indicating long vowels. I hope these will be introduced at a certain moment though. Regards, - Takeaway (talk) 15:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

MASS-age

"where is the evidence that 'conflates' massage with prostitution"? You don't get around much do you? This is a world-wide "phenomenon", and the connection can be found in Canada, the UK, the US, and about 40 other countries. In any case, the sentence did not "conflate" massage as prostitution, nor equate it; there were two separate phrases there "even though there are a few massage parlours...." ... "prostitution is not as common in this area as it is in Phuket and Pattaya" does not make any conflation/equation, though it does mention a well-known reality whether it's Patong, Patpong, or Vancouver or New York or suburban LA. Where is your source that there is not as much prostitution in this area as in the other main resort areas of Thailand? I just finished living in Lamai, Koh Samui, for a year and a half, and I can assure you that the connection between massage and prostitution is direct; that's not original research, it's statement of fact. In Chaweng it's even more true. Where is your source for claiming that prostitution is not as common as in other tourist areas? Maybe not on Koh Phangan, but sure as hell it is in Samui....including in Nathon. I suspect you may not even know what a "happy ending" is huh?Skookum1 (talk) 02:03, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

• Skookum1, ใจเย็นๆ! "Conflate" means to "combine (two or more texts, ideas, etc.) into one." The original text implies that massage parlours somehow equal, contribute to, or indicate prostitution. As this is an encyclopedia, this assertion needs to be corroborated. It was not, and I don't think it can be. As you know, Thailand is full of massage parlours. I would estimate, based on my empirical observations, that if you asked for a "happy ending" in 90%+ of them, you would be refused. Politely, of course, this being Thailand. In other words, they are not in the sex business. This, of course, is an article about Had Rin on Ko Pha Ngan. My experience there as a visitor for 2 weeks, coupled with having lived in Phuket, Phang Nga, and Chiang Mai leads me to agree with the original text, "This part...largely devoid of the prostitution prevalent in other areas...". BTW, I think this subject is better suited to Wikivoyage than Wikipedia. Seligne (talk) 05:10, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Are you female or male? where's your 90% figure coming from? Have you been male and walked along Hed Lamai at any hour of the day or night? You were a visitor there for 2 weeks, I lived there for 1.5 years (I'm now in Cambodia). And what you think about what should be in Wikivoyage vs what is in Wikipedia is quite irrelevant; your opinion is inherently POV on the matter; unless you can provide a cite for something, it should not be here. Documentation about prostitution and slavery in Thailand is all over the internet. Specific mentions about Koh Phangan you might find; on prostitution as a whole, in Thailand and around the world, the tie between "massage parlours" and prostitution is well-established...similarly about most "bars" in the same areas. Pretending that it's not, without being able to cite that disconnect (which you won't) is just more opinion without citation. I removed that whole section, as to take out that one bit without the context that introduced it makes the mention worthless as a whole; unless it can be cited that there is less prostitution in "this area" there is no point at all in including that; and hell, if you spent 2 weeks on Koh Phangan how would you know?? Skookum1 (talk) 06:08, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Your lack of awareness of the connotations of "conflate" and your use of the Thai word suggests to me your are not a native-speaker of English. This statement " I would estimate, based on my empirical observations, that if you asked for a "happy ending" in 90%+ of them" begs the question "what empirical observations" would those be? How many massages did you have during your 2-week stay?Skookum1 (talk) 06:19, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Let me see if I can address some of the points you raise: 1. I thought the discussion was about Had Rin and Ko Pha Ngan, not Hat Lamai and Ko Samui? 2. In my original edit I removed the implication that massage equals prostitution. That was uncorroborated in the article. It does not accord with my own experience. I let stand the assertion, also uncorroborated, that Had Rin has less prostitution than Phuket and Pattaya. I believe it to be true. If I can find evidence, I will add it to the article. 3. Whether I am a native English speaker or not is not germane. What is germane is my facility in the language. I can use a dictionary as well as anyone and do not need your instruction as to the meaning of the word, "conflate". 4. You ask, "what empirical observations"? As I stated: my empirical observations. How that be more clear? My observations are not appropriate for inclusion in an encyclopedia, so you will note that I added no opinions to the article. I merely deleted an uncorroborated (and I believe misleading) assertion. 5. You belittle my two weeks on the island. Why would I or anyone else need to spend more than one weekend at the most on Ko Pha Ngan to come away with the observation that there appeared to be less prostitution there than in Phuket and Pattaya? Maybe you need to spend more time in the latter two places. 6. Look, I'm sorry if you got your knickers in a twist over this. On my scale of things, it's a fairly minor matter. But let me give you some unsolicited feedback that you won't like: I find your snarky, arrogant attitude on this talk page to be annoying. I see that you are a Wikipedia stud-muffin and I salute you for it, but I don't think that gives you leave to write comments to me, a well-meaning wannabe, dripping with scorn. 7. This is becoming tiresome. I hope we can leave it here. Respectfully yours, Seligne (talk) 10:46, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

"A Wikipedia stud-muffin"? Where's that coming from?? Talk about me being scornful to you, but so often is the way of such things. "That area" of Thailand includes Koh Samui; having said "on Koh Phangnan"; and I re-assert that the equation between massage parlours and prostitution is well-established worldwide, including in Thailand, and unless you want to cite a travel guide to the effect that there is little prostitution on that island or at Haad Rin you won't find a citation for it. Nor to the notion that 90% of masseuses will not etc. As for calling me a newbie, no, I'm just tired of seeing biased edits, with one non-fact taken out leaving the other one standing alone, without citation either. Scorn perhaps, because of your naivete about prostitution there, or anywhere, so it seems.Skookum1 (talk) 11:02, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I still had this talk page in my watchlist due to my above message and only when the word "stud muffin" flew by on the edit summaries did I take a look at what was going on here. Anyway, there is widespread use of the word "massage parlour" as a euphemism for a certain type of brothel in Thailand and elsewhere. Here's a reliable source for its usage as such in Thailand: UNFPA research 2. Although prostitution on Koh Samui is a well known fact (Joan Henderson: Managing Tourism Crises and The Guardian: Paradise Lost, it is impossible to find any reliable sources to back this up for Koh Pha Ngan. Most blogs seem to remark that it's virtually non-existent. That prostitutes (from Samui) might follow the masses that descend on this beach for the big Full Moon Party, or be taken there with their punters, seems likely, but for them to be a permanent fixture of Haad Rin, is unlikely due to the fact that most tourists there are young backpackers who are less inclined to visit prostitutes. I just contacted an American friend of mine who, until 3 years ago, had lived on the island for over 20 years and all she said that there were a few "beer bars" and perhaps a few "massage parlours" with semi-retired prostitutes and indeed, the active prostitutes from Samui that only visit the beach for the big party night. Her take on it was that backpackers don't spend money on this so there's no real market on the island. - Takeaway (talk) 14:22, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Takeaway, for the input. It pretty much mirrors my own observations: lots of beer bars and bar girls on Samui (Lamai). Not so much on Ko Pha Ngan. Sexpats generally stick to Samui. Massage parlours in Thailand are ubiquitous. In my experience, the overwhelming majority are legit. You have to expend some effort to find the "special" ones. They certainly do exist. I maintain that to automatically associate "massage parlour" with sexual services is highly misleading.Seligne (talk) 15:42, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry but your observation of massage parlours in Thailand being overwhelmingly "legit" is really just that, your observation. I wouldn't dare give a percentage of how many do, and how many don't offer sexual services. I don't like getting massages of any kind myself but what I have gathered is that it can also depend on how the masseuse or masseur at a "legit" looking massage place ("massage parlour" is not a good term as that really means brothel more than anything else nowadays) assesses their customer. One of my Western friends went to a very legit massage place in Bangkok which was recommended by both the TAT as well as in inflight magazines, and also there he was offered the "extra" for an additional "tip". As for nearly everything in Thailand, things are not as straightforward as they might seem for an outsider and that is why, if I would ever have need for a massage, I'd ask my Thai friends to recommend me one. - Takeaway (talk) 18:07, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Of course I have never maintained that it is anything other than my opinion and I have certainly not inserted that opinion into my edits. Please acknowledge, however, that the opposite might also be true: that to equate massage with prostitution is equally suspect as an opinion. I have good reasons for my view, and I have been offered sexual services in a massage shop. Those occasions amount to about 2x in 4 years, about 50 massages.Seligne (talk) 07:10, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank You!

Thanks for editing Mauritius (British Period). You've found the most appropriate words. It would be great if you could have a look now and then. JLindsayD (talk) 06:37, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Season's greetings

Wishing you a happy Loi Krathong and Yi Peng! - Takeaway (talk) 09:44, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanx. Same to you. Just don't launch any hot air balloons at the airport! Seligne (talk) 10:07, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll be arriving in CM next week so missing out on the festivities this year. And yes, I know! I once saw a khom loi only go past the engine of a plane I was in by 10 meters... :O - Takeaway (talk) 10:14, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Yantra tattooing

Hey Seligne, can you check the Thai words on this page? For example, แห้าถว Ha Thaew not only seems odd but doesn't appear when I use dictionaries or Google but I don't speak Thai. Ogress _smash! 20:30, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Wow! Am I ever impressed! You don't speak/read Thai, but you figured out that something was fishy about that script! What is referred to are the 5 spires of a temple, or "5 rows". "Five" in Thai is ห้า (ha) and "row" is แถว (thaeo), so it should be written as ห้าแถว. Shall I make the change, or you? BTW, your great contributions are appreciated by all. Seligne (talk) 07:14, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll do it, but if you might look over the other ones just to check they're in order? Ogress _smash! 08:39, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

December 2014

Welcome to Wikipedia. At least one of your recent edits, such as the edit you made to Völkner Incident, did not appear to be constructive and has been reverted or removed. Although everyone is welcome to contribute to Wikipedia, please take some time to familiarise yourself with our policies and guidelines. You can find information about these at the welcome page which also provides further information about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. If you only meant to make some test edits, please use the sandbox for that. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. Moriori (talk) 19:54, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the constructive feedback.Seligne (talk) 00:01, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Cleanup of Thai articles

Thanks a lot for all the cleanup work in the articles on the Thai province and district - a task I should have done for a long time but never found the mood and time to do. I recently started to create the administration section of the district articles by a program in order to update it easier whenever the local governments change, or new population data becomes available. Can you check that section in e.g. Mueang Chanthaburi District if there are any language issues left, or other things which should be formatted better? andy (talk) 10:56, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanx, Andy. I think I have finished some minor tweaking and await better population data, etc. These pages look good, I think due to you! Best, Seligne (talk) 13:52, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Phuket Airport amendment

Thai Airasia FD0385 and FD0386 will only operate until the end of this month 28 Feb 2015

You can check through Airasia official website http://www.airasia.com/my/en/where-we-fly/flight-schedule.page

However Airasia (AK) will still operate KUL-HKT route — Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.23.138.150 (talk) 13:23, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Fang (town)

The town of Fang normally call "Fang" but the name of Municipality is "Wiang Fang" in Thai "เวียงฝาง" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shalom503 (talk • contribs) 10:47, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you, but I must take exception. I think WP should enlighten and assist, not confuse people. A few points: a) every other mention I can find in WP calls the town "Fang" (ฝาง). b) Google Maps calls it Fang. c) The Roadway (Thai) map I am looking at calls it: "อ. ฝาว Fang". d) In my two trips to Fang (I live in Chiang Mai) over the past two months, my Thai friends referred to it as Fang, not Wiang Fang. Please corroborate your use of "Wiang Fang", or I will be compelled to revert it. Thanks for your understanding. Seligne (talk) 11:58, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

The reason why you hear it just named Fang is simply because it is the settlement around the district office of Fang district, and since Thais like to omit the obvious words they just say Fang instead of Amphoe Fang. Your example c) the อ. is the abbreviation of Amphoe, so it clearly does not mark the municipality but the district. The same you see on the road signs, so obviously a road map copies this. Guess the same happens in Google Maps - since the local governments like the municipalities are in parallel to the central administrative Amphoe and Tambon most maps omit the local governments. Additionally, the local governments are still not well-established in Thai common use as territorial units, the central government units are still the much better known ones, even though the decentralization was in the 1990s already. What is your problem with Fang (ฝาง, officially Wiang Fang (เวียงฝาง))? The page is already located at the name Fang, we are not discussing a move to Wiang Fang, but the article should be at least factually correct. andy (talk) 20:31, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Thailand's Population

Can you speak Thai? I'm Thai and I know my country as well! http://stat.bora.dopa.go.th/stat/pk/pk_57.pdf This is a official source by The Bureau of Registration Adminstration, Department of Provincial Administration, Ministry of Interior. If you are Thai! You will understand this source as well! Thank you!