Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television

Character episode count and crediting

I was wondering what the general rule or opinion is for crediting someone in a television series who appears but isn't actually credited in the episode itself but is/will be credited in later episodes. I know for some movies that actors appear who aren't credited are listed as (uncredited) on a Wikipedia article.I apologise in advance if my question is on the wrong page, however I searched everywhere and this page was the closest to what I was looking for. Thank you. Brocicle (talk) 13:24, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

If there is a reliable source that says they had an uncredited role, then you can include them. Otherwise, we cannot verify their involvement.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 03:40, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

This is sort of related, so I am going to add it here. What should be done when an actor is credited for an episode, but doesn't actually appear in an episode? Is this something that needs to be pointed out, perhaps by saying something like "Credits list as series regular in XX episodes, but only appeared in YY episodes"? Thanks in advance. - Marchjuly (talk) 01:05, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't go into that level of detail, because it would require someone to watch every episode just to verify it. Chances are, they were cut in editing, but actually did film.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 01:40, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the speedy reply. Would you suggest including such information is then best determined through consensus? The reason I am asking is that this seems to be an issue in articles for actors who appear/appeared in The Walking Dead (TV series). Someone adds the extra info, another editor removes it, someone adds it again, another editor removes it, then someone adds it again. To be honest, I have no real preference either way though I kinda agree that it might be just a little too much detail. Just was curious if there was a Wikipedia or MOS:TV policy/guideline reason for/against inclusion. - Marchjuly (talk) 02:05, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

If there is a reliable sources that says, "but they only appeared in X episodes", then you're fine to include it. But if you have a source that say "10 episodes" but someone watching the show goes, "I only see them in 9 episodes", then it's just original research. We ask people to watch shows to verify plots, but that's about as far as that goes because we're saying a specific episode to look at. In this case, we'd be asking people to watch 100+ episodes to verify that a character did or did not appear. It's original research, so it shouldn't be there without a source.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 02:26, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

How would a simple computation constitute original research?

#Contents says:

* If average viewership numbers are included, they should be adequately sourced, and not the result of your own calculations as this would constitute original research. Sourcing is crucial for accuracy, and to help other editors quickly respond to numerical vandalism.

I'm a bit confused as to how that would be OR, though I can certainly understand that the numbers could become vandalized or stale; it's not as though simple calculations are not trivially verifiable, is it? (Perhaps average viewership is not as simple as it sounds?) —SamB (talk) 16:56, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

The reason is that final season rankings are not necessarily based on the LIVE numbers, like many episode lists include. They are often either LIVE+3 or LIVE+7, which means that simply doing your own computation and saying that this is the average would be original research. Especially since the "Rankings" is based on official figures.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 00:50, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Proposing minor addition to TVOVERVIEW

It seems that general community editing practices discourage the inclusion of season end dates in the Series Overview table until that episode airs. Is that accurate or my imagination? I know that we similarly tend to not add last_aired values to the infobox until the final episode airs, since eps can be rescheduled, etc. If this is how we generally feel on the matter, I think it's worth adding a quick "Please do not add the season ending date until the final episode has aired" statement somewhere at WP:TVUPCOMING WP:TVOVERVIEW. And maybe at Template:Infobox Television as well. Thoughts? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:13, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

That would seem consistent with current practice and guidelines, but shouldn't it be added to WP:TVOVERVIEW, not WP:TVUPCOMING? --AussieLegend (✉) 15:21, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Oh crap, that's what I meant. I get the two confused sometimes because they're somewhat intertwined. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:44, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

As do I. Maybe we need to combine them so we don't have to keep typing "WP:TVOVERVIEW, WP:TVUPCOMING" in edit summaries. --AussieLegend (✉) 03:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't know if they have to be combined. UPCOMING is already a part of OVERVIEW; it is a more direct link to a part of it. So in theory, one should only need to link one or the other (unless they are talking about two elements of each). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 23:26, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

UPCOMING and OVERVIEW are parts of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Television#Episode listing that have the same heading level, with paragraph numbers 4.3.3 and 4.3.1 respectively. Neither is part of the other and they are separated by "Multiple pages" (4.3.2), so it's necessary to refer to them separately. --AussieLegend (✉) 02:37, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

I disagree with that addition. As long as the information has an inline citation, I don't see the problem. How is listing a date in the series overview table any different than listing dates with upcoming episode information? -- Wikipedical (talk) 21:34, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Good question, and I'm up for the discussion since in actual practice I see the reversion of this content all the time from infoboxes and overviews. I'd say that one issue is that we are creating multiple instances of potentially incorrect content. We might have an episode date in the episode list, an end date in the Infobox and an end date in the overview, creating three areas where data needs to be updated. On the other hand, I see your point that if it is sourced, then shouldn't that suffice? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 22:59, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

To me, the difference lies in what the table is being used for. The overview is being used to summarize a series, whereas the episode table is being used to list all episode information that has happened or about to happen. For me, it seems inappropriate to "summarize" future events that can easily change up to the week before for any reason. It's like the episode count not counting ahead of time.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:29, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, all future dates may change, but I don't think that's convincing enough to prohibit presenting cited future dates. What you're saying applies to all upcoming episode dates as well as the "First aired" parameter too. Articles on films include upcoming theatrical premiere dates in their infoboxes, and it's not controversial. The Wikipedia readership understands the future is not 100% confirmable beforehand, and I believe listing cited upcoming dates is definitely worth that trade-off. -- Wikipedical (talk) 01:39, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Budget

I have very rarely, practically never seen television shows feature 'budgets'. Except like Band of Brothers. And was wondering what are the 'rules' or whatever of it? I did I search on this page for 'cost' and 'budget' and came up with nothing. What would we do? Or how would we mention it? Under production? Or on info box? Game of Thrones Season 1 cost around 60 million and that was mentioned in production I believe. Not sure how much other seasons are. But has this ever been discussed? Charlr6 (talk) 13:28, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

It's not discussed in the MOS because it's not a typical thing to know. It's rare that we hear about TV show budgets, outside of high profile, long series where someone reports on how much the actors are getting per episode (there's more than their salaries that go into a budget). I would say it should be mentioned in production if reliably source, but I don't think that we need the MOS update to reflect information that is rarely provided.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 13:32, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

@Charlr6: Is there something specific that prompted you to ask about budget? I'm just curious. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:47, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

I was wondering it as on the Humans (TV Series) wiki page, a budget was put into a info box. I did start a talk there, and was discussed possibly put there because it was considered to be a limited series, but now talks of future seasons. Charlr6 (talk) 18:05, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Does it actually show in the infobox? I wasn't sure if we had a budget field for TV infobox. If so, that's probably fine for now. Unless there is details about the budget, then production would be a good place for it. I still think it's too rare to have a mention on the MOS. Otherwise, we'd be adding every minor production detail to the MOS and how to handle it. Sometimes, common sense must prevail.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 18:11, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Ah, my suspicions were valid. |budget= was added when Infobox television film was merged with {{Infobox television}},[1] after a TfD discussion. As explained in the documentation, the field is Used for television films and is The budget of the television film or miniseries. It's not meant to be used in TV series articles. --AussieLegend (✉) 18:30, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, thinking about it now, I would agree. Budgets are a bit more fluid from episode to episode, with some going over and some being under, and then each new contract change can increase or decrease a budget. I think it's too hard to track sufficiently for an on-going series.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 18:43, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

TV series categories

I've noticed this for a long time, and that's categories for TV series' are not consistent and use different wording, ex. series, show(s), and program(s). One naming style should be used across all categories for consistency, and ease of finding/adding categories. Using "series" seems to be make the most sense since that's how they're usually referred to. There's tons of other inconsistencies, such as, Television shows filmed in California, Television series shot in Los Angeles‎, Television series produced in Toronto, which all are categories having to do with filming, but all use different wording (filmed, shot, produced). Filming, which is the most dominant usage for most of the naming, should be used across all similar categories. I'm just wondering how to go about this. Anyone have any input/comments on this? Thank you. Drovethrughosts (talk) 13:27, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I think this might be better addressed at WT:TV so we can get wider consensus. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:42, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Multiple nationalities for tv series

After seeing this edit to Beast Wars: Transformers, I'm wondering whether this MoS should borrow from WP:FILMLEAD, specifically "If the nationality is not singular, cover the different national interests later in the lead section." Thoughts? DonIago (talk) 13:35, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Expanding WP:NOTPLOT

Opinions are needed on the following matter: Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#Expanding NOTPLOT. A WP:Permalink for it is here. Flyer22 (talk) 08:44, 25 July 2015 (UTC)