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:::@Jujhar.pannu: Sorry, they are looking for authors, and asking authors to send in their resume. That is SPS-style approach. There is nothing in that link to suggest Pruthi source or the publisher is WP:RS. You need to provide better evidence. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 23:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
:::@Jujhar.pannu: Sorry, they are looking for authors, and asking authors to send in their resume. That is SPS-style approach. There is nothing in that link to suggest Pruthi source or the publisher is WP:RS. You need to provide better evidence. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 23:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

:::: I am frequently approached by Cambridge University Press folks to send in my resume and outline for publishing a book. So we rule Cambridge Univ Press as SPS-style approach also ? [[User:Kigman fs|Kigman fs]] ([[User talk:Kigman fs|talk]]) 23:35, 11 March 2016 (UTC)


== Shakti and Bhakti ==
== Shakti and Bhakti ==

Revision as of 23:35, 11 March 2016

Unsourced content

This article has had a WP:V request banner since 2013. A major surgery on this article is long overdue, which I am now doing. Please feel free to re-add text, but with reliable sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:07, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(Copied from above) Big thanks to User:Ms Sarah Welch for jumping in on the clean up effort here with me. Though I wonder if this shouldn't all be rolled into the Bhakti page.Iṣṭa Devatā (talk) 16:06, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Iṣṭa Devatā: Merging it there may not be wise, but I will reflect on that suggestion. Meanwhile, your help in developing a more complete verifiable list of Bhakti movement poets, writers, musicians by each denomination, would be most welcome. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:47, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Point taken on the merge. A link here to a bibliography full of good references Bhakti Bibliography. Particularly ' Songs of the Saints of India New York and Oxford: Oxford University. Press, 1988' gives a good citation for listing Ravidas, Kabir, Nanak, Surdas, Mirabai, and Tulsidas. Also talks about bhakti in the sikh tradition (Nanak) and useful for citations on nirgun vs. sagun bhakti as the book divides the poets up by this category. I'll keep looking for more to add.Iṣṭa Devatā (talk) 20:24, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Iṣṭa Devatā: Thank you. Assuming we can find recent reliable sources, I am envisioning a table that might look like this:
Bhakti poets, writers and muscians
Denomination Sub-schools Scholar-sant Key works
Saivism [add] [add] [add]
Vaishnavism [add] [add] [add]
Shaktism [add] [add] [add]
Smartism [add] [add] [add]
Sikhism [add] [add] [add]
[add] [add] [add] [add]
Such a table would provide information and WP:RS leads to scholarly literature, to any reader interested in a specific bhakti scholar. Any other columns to add? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:17, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Shakti, Bhakti, Sikhism section, WP:BRD

@Jujhar.pannu: Do you have sources for what you mentioned in your edit comment, "Prior to Sikhism aspects of Shakti were always considered opposite and opposing to the concepts of Bhakti"? If you do, please provide. Otherwise, this reads like your OR/personal wisdom/personal prejudice. Perhaps if you provide a reliable source, I can review it and get back. You "Removed image is alternative Sikh practice", but per WP:NPOV, we can't take sides in disputes inside Sikhism. On rest of your edits, please do not remove reliable sources as you did here. If you have other sources which suggest "God is shown as both Nirgun and Sargan in Sikhi", please provide and we can add it as well. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:47, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Ms Sarah Welch: The actual edits text are not my personal view only it is the prominent and accepted view. That above was mainly my own thoughts. I was referring to the whole thing about how Guru Hargobind convinced the Simriti Ram Das of the Marathi and guide of Shivji to do a dharam yudh who agreed to his concept after originally criticizing it, or the other saints who criticized thrones, and armies, etc or how lots of these bhakti type thought are usually non defensive and non violent. I actually had a few references for those but since it was only a comment and not used on any actual pages rather just a comment to show how obviously important Shakti here was. There are a lot of examples and if you woud like you can write something like "Bhagats like Banda Singh Biraghi did not understand the Shakti aspects of Sikhism and where angered by the Guru's display of Shakti until..." Shakti and Bhagkti are directly related to this topic and subtopic. If you have any reason to suggest why they are not please tell me. I am suggesting it because if you have a topic on metals for example and list the various submetals in it you would describe why that submetal is different from the other.
The word Sargun must be mentioned in the SGGS alone hundreds of times. There are plenty of sources that show that Sikhism views God as both Sargun and Nirgun. For example page 21 of Sikhism: its philosophy and history by Daljeet Singh or page 305 of Comparative Religious And Philosophies : Anthropomorphlsm And Divinity by Mahinder N. Gulati
Regarding the picture with the lamps. There is arti arta which is done by maybe 1% of sikhs from certain sects which is done with lamps like that. And then there is arti which is done a little more frequently by just singing and even that topic might be considered WP:UNDUE. Please see page 139 of Sikhs in the Diaspora by Surinder Singh Bakhshi or Page 14 of Holy Sikh Shrines by Surinder Singh Johar Jujhar.pannu (talk) 17:17, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Jujhar.pannu: Please don't remove WP:RS sourced content. These are from established scholars, high quality secondary/tertiary sources. You can't delete them. For this talk page, let us avoid a WP:FORUM-y discussion. We can only use reliable sources. You mention page numbers with a few sources, which I will now review, and get back to you. I am delighted that you have raised the sagun/nirgun point from Sikhism perspective. I need to check alternate WP:RS on your 1% claim, as I remember Ronki Ram's paper in Routledge Handbook of Contemporary India, which stated Ravidassia Sikhs practiced arti and ardas. There are a few other relevant examples. I am aware of the Ravidassia Dharm and their recent split from Sikhism, but we need to ensure that all significant sides are represented for WP:NPOV. We also need to avoid misrepresenting mainstream Sikhism by overemphasis of a minor practice or through silence. Let me check your sources and get back. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:00, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jujhar.pannu: How about we make the following change,

Current: In Sikhism, Bhakti of nirguni (devotion to divine without attributes) is emphasized.[88][89][90]
Proposed: In Sikhism, Bhakti of nirguni (devotion to divine without attributes) is emphasized,[88][89][90] but it accepts both nirguni and saguni forms of the divine.[1]

References

  1. ^ Mahinder Gulati (2008), Comparative Religious And Philosophies : Anthropomorphism And Divinity, Atlantic, ISBN 978-8126909025, page 305

I reviewed Bakhshi or Johar. Where do they say, there is no Bhakti in Sikhism? All they comment on is the idol worship and lamps, which is just one aspect of Bhakti. Bhakti has always been more than that - see the David Lorenzen etc books cited in this article. There is plenty of sources mentioning Jaap, kirtan, Ardas etc. See Nirmal Singh's Searches in Sikhism, page 93 and Darshan Singh's Indian Bhakti Tradition and Sikh Gurus, page 178. Are you okay if we mention kirtan, etc? On Shakti-Bhakti, you have not provided any source, just your personal opinions/wisdom/prejudice. If you read the Devi Mahatmya-related scholarly works, you will find that Shakti-Bhakti were not opposed, as you incorrectly allege, but they were synergistic/ cherished/ harmonious/ practiced together centuries before Sikhism was founded (e.g. see June McDaniel published by Oxford University Press, Vasudha Narayanan published by State University of New York Press, etc). Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:48, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jujhar.pannu: I looked into more sources, as I promised above. I propose that we also summarize the Bhakti-content on Sikhism from the following,

  1. SGGS pages 305-306, verses 305(16) – 306(2).[1][2][3]
  2. Guru Nanak taught, states Jon Mayled, that the most important form of worship is bhakti.[3]
  3. A short summary on Nam-simran as Bhakti.[4][5][6]
  4. A sentence or two on Guru Arjan's Sukhmani Sahib and his recommendation of the path of loving devotion to God, Bhakti.[7]

I will give you a few days to review and comment. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:04, 6 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Sant Singh Khalsa (Translator) (2006). Sri Guru Granth Sahib. srigranth.org. pp. 305-306 (Ang). {{cite book}}: |author= has generic name (help)
  2. ^ Jagbir Jhutti-Johal (2011). Sikhism Today. Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 92. ISBN 978-1-4411-8140-4.
  3. ^ a b Jon Mayled (2002). Sikhism. Heinemann. pp. 30–31. ISBN 978-0-435-33627-1.
  4. ^ Dalbir Singh Dhillon (1988). Sikhism, Origin and Development. Atlantic Publishers. p. 229.
  5. ^ Cave, David; Norris, Rebecca (2012). Religion and the Body: Modern Science and the Construction of Religious Meaning. BRILL Academic. p. 239. ISBN 978-9004221116.
  6. ^ Anna S. King; J. L. Brockington (2005). The Intimate Other: Love Divine in Indic Religions. Orient Blackswan. pp. 322–323. ISBN 978-81-250-2801-7.
  7. ^ Surinder S. Kohli (1993). The Sikh and Sikhism. Atlantic Publishers. pp. 74–76. ISBN 81-7156-336-8.
@Ms Sarah Welch: Your purposed change is:
In Sikhism, Bhakti of nirguni (devotion to divine without attributes) is emphasized,[88][89][90] but it accepts both nirguni and saguni forms of the divine
Yet you continue to re-add:
Guru Nanak, the first Sikh Guru and the founder of Sikhism, was a Nirguni Bhakti saint. In contrast to nirguni focus of Sikhism, Hinduism developed both saguni and nirguni bhakti (devotion to divine with or without attributes) as well as alternate paths to spirituality, with the options left to the choice of a Hindu
Please add more content, especially what you suggested at the end of your last post, unless there is already bundle of cited reasons not to. I see you removed a lot of referenced content without mentioning why. I mentioned why when I took them out and you have not addressed my concerns. Lastly I did not say there is no Bhakti in Sikhism. Jujhar.pannu (talk) 22:13, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jujhar.pannu: I reverted to the old stable version, per WP:BRD, a while ago, while I awaited your comments. Now, given the sources which are in the article and the new ones I have provided above (after my revert a few days ago), let us together work on a revised version for the Sikhism section. I will shortly propose a revised version, on this talk page. If you would like to suggest, please do. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:46, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed content for Sikhism section

A Bhagti (Bhakti) in progress using an Aarti plate in a Sikh Gurdwara. Bhagti, Kirtan and Ardās is an important tradition within some sects of Sikhism. Some scholars call Sikhism a Bhakti sect of Indian traditions.[1]

David Lorenzen states that Bhakti is an important idea within 15th-century religion Sikhism, just like Hinduism.[2] In Sikhism, Bhakti of nirguni (devotion to divine without attributes) is emphasized,[2][3][4] but it accepts both nirguni and saguni forms of the divine.[5]

The scripture of Sikhism is based on the hymns and teachings of the Sikh gurus, and thirteen Hindu and two Muslim bhagats.[6] The thirteen Hindu bhagats whose teachings were entered into the text, were poet saints of the Bhakti movement, and included Ramananda, Namdev, Pipa, Ravidas, Beni, Bhikhan, Dhanna, Jayadeva, Parmanand, Sadhana, Sain, Surdas, Trilochan, while the two Muslim bhagats were Kabir and Sufi saint Farid.[7][8][9] Most of the 5,894 hymns in the Sikh scripture came from the Sikh gurus, and rest from the Bhagats. The three highest contributions in the Sikh scripture were from Bhagat Kabir (292 hymns), Bhagat Farid (134 hymns), and Bhagat Namdev (60 hymns).[10] Some of the Bhagats whose teachings were included in the Guru Granth Sahib, were Hindu bhakti poets born before the birth of Guru Nanak – the founder of Sikhism. While Sikhism incorporated hymns from the Bhakti poet saints, it was not simply an extension of the Bhakti movement and Sikhism disagreed with some of the views of Kabir and Ravidas.[11]

Guru Nanak, the first Sikh Guru and the founder of Sikhism, was a Bhakti saint.[12] He taught, states Jon Mayled, that the most important form of worship is Bhakti.[13] Nam-simran – the repetition of God's name – is an important Bhakti practice in Sikhism.[14][15][16] Guru Arjan, in his Sukhmani Sahib, recommended the path of loving devotion to God.[17] The Sikh scripture Guru Granth Sahib includes suggestions for a Sikh to perform daily Bhakti.[18][13][note 1: place here verses 305(16) - 306(2) into notes section with cite]

References

  1. ^ W. Owen Cole and Piara Singh Sambhi (1997), A Popular Dictionary of Sikhism: Sikh Religion and Philosophy, Routledge, ISBN 978-0700710485, page 22
  2. ^ a b David Lorenzen (1995), Bhakti Religion in North India: Community Identity and Political Action, State University of New York Press, ISBN 978-0791420256, pages 1-3
  3. ^ Hardip Syan (2014), in The Oxford Handbook of Sikh Studies (Editors: Pashaura Singh, Louis E. Fenech), Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-0199699308, page 178
  4. ^ A Mandair (2011), Time and religion-making in modern Sikhism, in Time, History and the Religious Imaginary in South Asia (Editor: Anne Murphy), Routledge, ISBN 978-0415595971, page 188-190
  5. ^ Mahinder Gulati (2008), Comparative Religious And Philosophies : Anthropomorphism And Divinity, Atlantic, ISBN 978-8126909025, page 305
  6. ^ E Nesbitt (2014), in The Oxford Handbook of Sikh Studies (Editors: Pashaura Singh, Louis E. Fenech), Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-0199699308, pages 360-369
  7. ^ Shapiro, Michael (2002). Songs of the Saints from the Adi Granth. Journal Of The American Oriental Society. pp. 924, 925.
  8. ^ Mahinder Gulati (2008), Comparative Religious And Philosophies : Anthropomorphism And Divinity, Atlantic, ISBN 978-8126909025, page 302;
    HS Singha (2009), The Encyclopedia of Sikhism, Hemkunt Press, ISBN 978-8170103011, page 8
  9. ^ Mann, Gurinder Singh (2001). The Making of Sikh Scripture. United States: Oxford University Press. p. 19. ISBN 978-0-19-513024-9.
  10. ^ Patro, Santanu (2015). A Guide to Religious Thought and Practices (Fortress Press ed.). Minneapolis: Fortress Press. p. 161. ISBN 978-1-4514-9963-6.
  11. ^ Pruthi, R K (2004). Sikhism and Indian Civilization. New Delhi: Discovery Publishing House. pp. 202–203. ISBN 9788171418794.
  12. ^ HL Richard (2007), Religious Movements in Hindu Social Contexts: A Study of Paradigms for Contextual “Church” Development International Journal of Frontier Missiology, Vol. 24, Issue 3, page 144
  13. ^ a b Jon Mayled (2002). Sikhism. Heinemann. pp. 30–31. ISBN 978-0-435-33627-1.
  14. ^ Dalbir Singh Dhillon (1988). Sikhism, Origin and Development. Atlantic Publishers. p. 229.
  15. ^ Cave, David; Norris, Rebecca (2012). Religion and the Body: Modern Science and the Construction of Religious Meaning. BRILL Academic. p. 239. ISBN 978-9004221116.
  16. ^ Anna S. King; J. L. Brockington (2005). The Intimate Other: Love Divine in Indic Religions. Orient Blackswan. pp. 322–323. ISBN 978-81-250-2801-7.
  17. ^ Surinder S. Kohli (1993). The Sikh and Sikhism. Atlantic Publishers. pp. 74–76. ISBN 81-7156-336-8.
  18. ^ Jagbir Jhutti-Johal (2011). Sikhism Today. Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 92. ISBN 978-1-4411-8140-4.

@Jujhar.pannu: Please suggest changes, with WP:RS to improve the above version. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:13, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jujhar.pannu: If you feel the image over-emphasizes the minor sects within Sikhism, I am okay with removing the image, and moving the sentence in the caption into the main article, for WP:NPOV. As Joshua Jonathan, Chrisw80 and I have previously discussed, we need to keep the Ravidassia religion perspective when we discuss Sikhism. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:47, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jujhar.pannu: I concur with Ms Sarah Welch, removing the image is fine and moving the sentence into the main article is OK, as long as it's reliably sourced. Thank you for contributing! Chrisw80 (talk) 23:54, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Chrisw80: Thank you. Here are some more reliable sources on "lamp-based arti" in Sikhism (regionally, not in their Punjab region): one WP:RS is Karen Pechilis' book published by Routledge,[1] another by Pashaura Singh published by BRILL Academic.[2] Both of these are professors of South Asian religions, with Singh well known for his publications on Sikhism. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:25, 9 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Karen Pechilis; Selva J. Raj (2012). South Asian Religions: Tradition and Today. Routledge. p. 243. ISBN 978-1-136-16323-4.
  2. ^ Pashaura Singh; Michael Hawley (2012). Re-imagining South Asian Religions. BRILL Academic. pp. 42–43. ISBN 90-04-24236-8.
I know very little of Sikhism, but I do that both Ramakrishna and Ramana Maharshi were bhakti's, in contrast to their depictment as Advaita vedantins. So, Sikhism having strong Bhakti-roots does not sound strange to me. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:39, 9 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article change is still incorrect on many fronts. Can you please provide any reference from the bhakti movement that considers doing arti a form of bhakti? The teachings from the Sikh perspective are very little and you removed my referenced content without mention so I added it back. Jujhar.pannu (talk) 07:24, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Hi, dear all. Interesting discussion which I am glad to be part of. Sharing some points related to the first sentence of the proposal "Some scholars call Sikhism a Bhakti sect of Indian traditions.[88][89]". After reading both these references, I found [88] says

" and (Sikhism) is often described as a bhakti sect by many Hindu and western writers. Sikhs dislike this description, which seems to question the distinctiveness of the revelation received by the Gurus."

In [89], it appears authors try to link Sikhism to a hypothetical "Bhakti religion" and that's about it. I think we should represent the reference [88] accurately. Right now, only the initial bit of the quote I shared above has been picked and this provides incomplete context. Rather, complete context needs to be provided for the readers. Looking forward to nice discussions. Revkh (talk) 09:06, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again, looking at the Raj Pruthi reference now. In the article we have "according to Raj Pruthi, it (Sikhism) was not simply an extension of the Bhakti movement". The complete and accurate quote however is as follows

"Sikhism should not be looked at as simply an extension of the Bhakti movement but as a new movement entirely."

Appeal again that the quote be included in full to provide complete information to readers. As you can see, I am most interested in ensuring that the sources are represented accurately without any cherry-picking. Revkh (talk) 09:06, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jujhar.pannu: The arti/kirtan/bhajan has been part of the Bhakti movement. See Bruno Nettle, The Garland Encyclopedia of World Music, Routledge, ISBN 978-0824049461, pages 246-257; J Lele, Tradition and Modernity in Bhakti Movements, BRILL, ISBN 978-9004063709, pages 120-121. I am reverting some of your changes because your changes are WP:UNDUE-ly and incorrectly imply "Kabir and Ravidas" were all that Bhakti movement was. Furthermore, criticism of Kabir etc is WP:UNDUE in this article. This is not Pruthi-pedia. We must consider a range of sources, and try our best to summarize in a way that reflects the broad scholarship. We can mention Shakti aspects, but again we must keep WP:FRIND in mind, not just Raj Pruthi. Is Pruthi a reliable source, or is his book WP:SPS? One of the sources you added was published by Singh Brothers and looks like WP:SPS. I am deleting it for now, but if you provide evidence that it is a WP:RS publisher, we can add it back. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Revkh: Welcome to wikipedia. Revelation means many things. What you suggest is WP:UNDUE. Wikipedia is not Pruthi-pedia, and we must strive to summarize the broad scholarly consensus. You may want to read the current Bhakti-related discussion at TALK:Sikhism for numerous scholarly sources that disagree Sikhism was a "new movement entirely" POV. Also read the archives related to @Js82 and @Js82's numerous sockpuppets. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:38, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Ms Sarah Welch, Can you please provide the quotation that fulfils my request? There is nothing to suggest that Singh Brothers is not a reliable source and it is not a self publishing company and further more they have been publishing for 70 years. http://www.singhbrothers.com/singhbrothers.htm. Jujhar.pannu (talk) 23:18, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Raj Pruthi source: reliable or unreliable?

@Jujhar.pannu: I dug more into Raj Pruthi source, and learn that his education is in law. The Pruthi book has been published by a recently founded private publisher which advertises for WP:SPS-type publications. FWIW, Pruthi's comparison of Christianity and Sikhism, Buddhism and Sikhism, etc is WP:FRINGE-y. The book is inconsistent internally, such as on Ahimsa. On page 6, states Pruthi, Nanak supports and explains Ahimsa. But on page 203 Pruthi declares "Sikh Guru's (sic) did not believe in this Hindu practice". Pruthi book has no scholarly reviews that I could find, and does not seem like a WP:RS. I will give you a few days to collect and present evidence that Pruthi source meets wikipedia's WP:RS guidelines. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You are incorrect. It was founded in 1983 and is not a self publishing publication company.
http://www.discoverypublishinggroup.com/aboutus.html Jujhar.pannu (talk) 22:56, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Jujhar.pannu: Sorry, they are looking for authors, and asking authors to send in their resume. That is SPS-style approach. There is nothing in that link to suggest Pruthi source or the publisher is WP:RS. You need to provide better evidence. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am frequently approached by Cambridge University Press folks to send in my resume and outline for publishing a book. So we rule Cambridge Univ Press as SPS-style approach also ? Kigman fs (talk) 23:35, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Shakti and Bhakti

It is incorrect to suggest or imply that Shakti-Bhakti was unique to Sikhism. It existed many centuries before Sikhism was founded, and one of its central text is Devi Mahatmya.[1] The text and a related goddess-tradition existed in 1st-millennium CE, and thrived before the start of Sikhism. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:30, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Alf Hiltebeitel; Kathleen M. Erndl (2000). Is the Goddess a Feminist?: The Politics of South Asian Goddesses. New York University Press. pp. 32–37. ISBN 978-0-8147-3619-7.
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