Talk:2016 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict

Date

Bit early to label the clashes as over, with a ceasefire in place. There are no indications that it has ended, if anything there are some indications that operations are ongoing and will until NK is retaken from Armenian forces 68.194.218.93 (talk) 03:54, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. Though Ill add Azer sid the fighting has ceased.Lihaas (talk) 08:21, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

There is written that Azerbaijan violated ceasefire, while Azerbaijan side claims vice-versa. Correct that, so be neutral about it.

Reactions

The response from Germany and Norway are not notable. Some stuff is best kept on news reports. The precedent for allowing such material opens up the floodgates of every country on the planet and thus the article turns to shit. Jolly Ω Janner 08:35, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

It is reliable/notable because they are important players in the conflict zone/mediation. At any rate, it is not for us to cherry pick which stays and goes. RS sources and notable persons are there.Lihaas (talk) 10:55, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Best to keep all reactions at this point, some statements could be geopolitical signals not observed by editor at time of removal. Spirit Ethanol (talk) 11:10, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I was hoping an element of editorial judgement and common sense could be applied. I will never understand your concept that every published response is "notable" instead of just being routine news. Jolly Ω Janner 19:25, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• International reactions: where are the reaction from Russia? (see French and Turkish versions of Wikipedia) --Brateevsky ^{(talk to me)} 14:02, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support removal. --Dixtosa (talk) 17:07, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Proposal_to_do_away_with_including_world_leader_responses_to_terrorist_incidents

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Proposal_to_do_away_with_including_world_leader_responses_to_terrorist_incidents. Spirit Ethanol (talk) 11:08, 3 April 2016 (UTC)Template:Z48

NPOV, anyone?

Actually, text in the "Clashes" section is NOT well-balanced. While some of the content has been mediated by Russian sources, most sentences reflect the Azerbaijani description of the events: "According to the Azerbaijani side", "According to the Azerbaijani Ministry of Defense", "The Azerbaijani side claimed". Armenians have been cited on just one case, which is finished off by a victorious rebuttal: "Azerbaijani military officials quickly countered Armenia’s claims". Also, in the initial paragraph, the "official" statistics actually means Azerbaijani (Минобороны Азербайджана). Until neutral estimates become available, at least both sides should be cited to enable comparison. For that, there is a relatively good example in the infobox. --85.253.172.109 (talk) 12:40, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

And more: the sentence "On 3 April, the Azerbaijani Ministry of Defense announced a unilateral end to hostilities.[13]" is presented as if it would reflect the content of the source. The actual headline is "Azerbaijan claims cease fire in Nagorny-Karabakh, Armenia says hostilities continue". This is NOT neutral editing. --85.253.172.109 (talk) 12:52, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Armenian version is also there, you're welcome to add more from reliable news sources. At this point, there's no independent evaluation of the situation, so official sources, like Ministries of Defense are good enough. Brandmeister^talk 13:22, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree with the IP, but I should assure him that some of us are working on it to bring a more balanced point of view to this article.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:44, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm also concerned about how POV this article is, both from an Armenian and Azerbaijani point of view. There needs to be some reevaluation of this. Official sources are actually the very sources we should refrain to use, as both sides tend to exaggerate for political reasons. I recommend using Thomas de Waal's analysis as a guiding point: [1][2]. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:21, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I'd support de Waal inclusion. Brandmeister^talk 19:37, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

@ԱշոտՏՆՂ: Claims like these should be either verified by third parties per WP:SOURCE and WP:REDFLAG or removed in the absence of independent reliable sources. News.am is an involved source here. Otherwise we might fall into the swamp of informational warware. Brandmeister^talk 14:52, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

We will not swamp of informational warware because that claim confirmed by President of the Republic of Armenia. It is not written like that it is a absolute truth, it is what the Armenian side claims. If you want, you can note that Azerbaijani side did not confirmed that--ԱշոտՏՆՂ (talk) 14:58, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

I propose waiting until the dust settles and the situation becomes clearer. At this point, the UN confirmed only 3 civilian deaths, which is already stated in the article. Brandmeister^talk 15:10, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but this article is not only based on UN. There are many "according to"-s in it. As a neutral article it most have clams from all sides--ԱշոտՏՆՂ (talk) 15:16, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

If we put all claims of the involved sides, the article would become a mess. We already have various casualty claims in the infobox. But such exceptional claims as executions of civilians should be corroborated independently and not merely by sources "with an apparent conflict of interest" per WP:REDFLAG, as I stated above. Brandmeister^talk 15:22, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Brandmeister. In addition, we have a news report published on a third-party website where an Armenian official clearly states than the entire population of the villages in question had been evacuated: [3]. This makes claims of civilian executions even more sketchy. Parishan (talk) 15:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

This is not an ordinary claim. It is a crime and have been confirmed by Serzh Sargsyan, news.am and hetq.am--ԱշոտՏՆՂ (talk) 15:29, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

It's cleary a war crime by the azeris, I saw few videos of Azeris executing Armenians while pushing the genocide on them. They are thieves. And how you can be neutral in a war article edited like now by Azeri and Armenian speaking people? I am for neutral, source based journalism type of editing and semi-protecting of the site. EDIT: There are of course still some staying despite the evacuation, elderly for example... "Only a few residents were in Talish when Azerbaijani soldiers entered."--2A02:8108:1900:170:9404:9AD5:9878:6364 (talk) 15:53, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Azeri soldiers also beheaded a Yazidi and posted the video online. http://ezidipress.com/en/karabakh-conflict-azerbaijani-soldiers-behead-ezidi-soldier-from-armenia/-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 17:44, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Guys, why can't we write the official views of the Republic of Armenia? If there are Azerbaijani reliable sources that reject this claim, please put them in the article to make English Wikipedia more neutral․ Unfortunately I do not know Azerbaijani language and can't do it by myself.--ԱշոտՏՆՂ (talk) 19:15, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

It is a misconception to believe that neutrality is achieved by opposing a partisan source to another partisan source. Neutrality would require to not have an article at all on a subject which is standing solely on partisanship and bigotry. This way we won't be feeding the officials who think they can get away with bad state management by instigating a conflict with their neighbor. I don't have any difficulty imagining both officials discussing privately when it is appropriate to fight with each-other to shot their political opponent by creating a common enemy to rally the population. Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 19:16, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

In the section on Talysh village, the article currently states as a fact that Armenian forces retook Talysh. There are no reliable unbiased sources for this statement. So for sake of being objective, it should be stated that Armenian media outlets and/or Armenian officials claim that Armenian forces retook Talysh (and claim to have found mutilated corpses there). 84.138.87.219 (talk) 19:52, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Also, according to Azeri media reports, the Azerbaijan ministry of Defence claims that Azeri forces recently took Madagiz/Sugovushan [4], south of Talysh: [5] [6]. 84.138.87.219 (talk) 21:08, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

This is not a reliable source, but here is a video of Armenian TV in Talish and Madagiz, indicating that the two villages are (back) under Armenian control: [7]. 131.188.48.174 (talk) 13:55, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 April 2016

Samo405 (talk) 14:52, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Armenian allies

Hey guys! May someone add a hint in form of a sentence or in the box about the allies of Armenia like the Greeks and CSTO military alliance? Thx --95.90.252.104 (talk) 02:50, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Request for opinions

It was proposed to merge Armenian–Azerbaijani border conflict -> Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, please discuss at talk:Nagorno-Karabakh conflict#Merge. Thank you.GreyShark (dibra) 19:11, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

I would not merge it, at least not yet. It is the greatest violence there since 1994, it marks a new round in the conflict. Those articles are already cluttered, and this one is becoming cluttered too. 37.186.122.81 (talk) 09:52, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Title

The clashes are not along the Armenia-Azerbaijan border, but mainly in Nagorno-Karabakh. So perhaps the correct title is the "2016 Nagorno-Karabakh clashes" or "2016 Karabakhi-Azerbaijani clashes"?

There are reported clashes surrounding Tavush: http://armenpress.am/eng/news/842222/soldier-wounded-in-tavush-province-of-armenia.html-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 11:01, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

neutrality?

it states in the article that armenia is involved as a belligerent, but that is not reported in the news. what is the source for armenian involvement and support for the unrecognized nagorno karabakh republic as a co-belligerent? sources? any?

Is there any independent source for this clash? And no I am not referring to the media which recycles what both parties report. All of this article comes from partisan sources. There is no available casualties figure which we can trust or what went on. What tells me that the entire story wasn't created by both sides en manque d'attention? I propose deleting the article and stop feeding either side of the conflict until both government agree on what happened (including casualties figure) and come up with a usable story with a happy ending, including kisses and a marriage between a daughter and son of officials from each side. You know, the big thing with Pachelbel's Canon concluding with a neutralized Lavash as food with candles on a huge presidential table. :) I don't like the plot of the movie, and as a citizen of the World, I am boycotting the theaters where it is played. Where are mother Alyiev and mother Sahakyan? It's about time mother takes them by the ear and punish them by throwing their toys (aka guns) and some strong red pepper in their mouth like mothers in the region used as punishment. Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 18:45, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Having been active on the List of ongoing armed conflicts for several years and monitoring this conflict for several years as part of that page, Armenian and Azeri sources are generally reliable in regards to their own casualties but are not generally all that reliable as to information regarding their opponents losses.XavierGreen (talk) 00:25, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

How do you assess it is reliable, in comparison with what? Let's take president of NK alone, is he not an ex-military who got elected on the basis of national security, isn't this mandate not feeding his position? What would he be doing as the head of state if he admits failure of the very thing which got him in power? As for Alyiev, see this [8] from the Irish Times why we should not trust them either. While the clash preceded the official leak, this should suffice to say why the population won't excuse any more Azerbaijani victims in a country where a family and its acolytes are possessing the entire wealth of the nationstate and the opposition is growing stronger and stronger. We can make an educated guess that the Armenian side will be making accusations to the effect that the government of Azerbaijan is using this clash to distract the attention from the Panama papers. See my comment here [9] and that's what at least I found after this comment, from one partisan newsource (I recall panarmenian) even claiming Alyiev knew it was comming. An accusation similar (but more direct) to the one I found from an opinion article from Forbes [10] which hints the Kremlin could have known already on March 28 about at least the part involving Putin. Should we then think likely that no such information was relayed by the Kremlin to their acolytes from both sides regarding Alyiev family to cause enough abrasion by broadning the Russian influence in the regions and new arm deals being signed. And about Armenia, do we really need a reference to add that Armenia is involved? I renew my proposal to delete this article, as there is no way to have anything there which can be trusted. For all we know all the footages and pictures could have been made in a studio from the presidential basements.:) Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 02:45, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

i have no clue what you're going on about. i was pointing out that for neutrality in a forum such as wikipedia, an encyclopedia, every effort should be made to verify information or at least, not disseminate incorrect information or presumptions. sure, it's likely armenia is helping, but where is confirmation? armenia has stated that they WOULD help if this continued, while the ethnic armenians within nagorno karabakh are obviously belligerents. my argument is that 'armenia' should be removed from the list of belligerents as it hasn't been proven

Muhammad is reported saying that true knowledge is not acquired by extensive learning of reported experiences (which is tainted by the point of view of the authors) but what our untainted heart tells us as a guide. The obvious is the obvious and this transcend sources which are all tainted. Under Sufi order all branches of knowledge can be categorized with the following:

1-The science of the heart, which is acquired cross culturally and which is invariable no matter who you are. They also call it the science of the hereafter. What a child with no cultural identification (Christians call him the son of man) will answer you after you read him the material without any form of selection.

2-Hard science (or worldly), which is directly bound to the person who is practicing it and require the knowledge of an a priori construct which is temporal. And therefor is a point of view which feeds on names (which under Islam is a form of polytheism). Exactly like reptiles feeding from the environment to regulate their own metabolism (reason why several religions present a reptile, particularly the snake, as a symbol for the devil) According to Islam this science survival depends on egoistic and selfish motives.

So if by sources you mean names, the French have this expression called secret de polichinelle, an Open secret. I assume you are a Christian, so lets put it this way, if the child of man could read those [11] [12] [13] what obvious conclusion he will be having if he could speak? This child will just tell you that Russia dragged Armenia in its conflict with Turkey. The father of the child forced to agree(since he is only Joseph his earthly father, and could not question the divine child) will point to December 23 deal [14] which according to Alexander Luzan, the former deputy undersecretary of the Russian land forces was directly linked with the tensions between Turkey and Russia. [15] Now reread what I already posted above and come up with the obvious conclusion.

In ancient time the names had their statues and their words were considered as those of Gods. The city of Palmyre was such a place, countries parliaments placard their walls with those Gods after voting to remove religious symbols, because they want their faces instead (Back to Ataturks Turkey). Do we understand now the intention of those Jihadists in the city of Palmyre (even though they too have shown that they can't comprehend the simplest precepts of Islam). Newsources are all biased, publicly founded sources like CBC filtrate everything and any balanced opinion is removed without them having to justify anything. Maybe the Panama papers will wake up the population. See more about the so-called Saudi King who hides behind a created Salafist movement to straighten his position when he trespassed every possible Islamic law, particularly those regarding estates (alas with Alyiev) documented in those paper or Syrian president entourage, the puppet ex-interim prime minister of Iraq. Well every ego is mortal, right? here is the fatal weakness of those sources, they have to be replenished regularly. And cloning them won't make it because unless scientists can change one physical constant (gravity) the telomeric loss is unresolvable, no matter what lies some laboratory is feeding us because it is bound to the second law of thermodynamics :) this is the hard science the science of the ego, but the solution lies in the first form of knowledge which is cross cultural and not bound to any temporal constant and does not rely on the mortal ego for its own survival.

Ask me any source, with names, but know that those are only temporal and tells little about its truthfulness, the better question to ask, what purpose will that be serving and whom is it feeding? The very reason why I switch the i and y in the name of one of the belligerent is avoid feeding his ego and that's the only way you defeat him. Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 16:42, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Background

The main reason for clashes stem from continuing Armenian occupation and 600.000 Azeris displaced because of the Armenian Agression as it stated in the refernces from UN. I see some users just call all refernced information as propaganda and remove it.--Abbatai 07:47, 6 April 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yahya Talatin (talk • contribs)

I think that the whole background section is off topic. There is no need to rehash or copypaste content that is fully covered in other articles and which is just going to make for needless argument here. All that is needed are links to the main articles. The subject being covered here is a post-NK war ceasefire clash. So all that is really needed is a mention of the ceasefire's circumstances, the frozen conflict lines, and the political rhetoric and ongoing low scale violence along the ceasefire lines that has culminated in this event, the largest outbreak of armed oonflict since the ceasefire. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 14:33, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

How come off topic? Just read my first post here it clarifies reason for clashes. Plus stop putting Armenian websites to article inserting one sided claims. What's more Madrid Principles cites followings:

- return of the territories surrounding Nagorno-Karabakh to Azerbaijani control;

- an interim status for Nagorno-Karabakh providing guarantees for security and self-governance;

- a corridor linking Armenia to Nagorno-Karabakh;

- future determination of the final legal status of Nagorno-Karabakh through a legally binding expression of will;

- the right of all internally displaced persons and refugees to return to their former places of residence; and

- international security guarantees that would include a peacekeeping operation.

Not Karabakh has never been part of Azerbaijan something... --Abbatai 11:06, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Status of positions

With Armenian news agencies taking pictures of azeri atrocities and Armenian journalists walking in the positions freely, the more credible claim seems tro be Armenian forces retook them. --Oatitonimly (talk) 20:00, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Unless there is confirmation from a third party, such as confirmation of the earlier casualties by the Red Cross, one cannot talk of any "atrocities" with certainty. Parishan (talk) 20:23, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Footage from Armenian TV seems to indicate that the villages Talysh and Magadiz are under Armenian control. Geotagging the footage, the first ten seconds of this video here [16] appear to really have been shot at the entrance to Talysh, looking to the west: [17]. The overly specific dementi of Azerbaijani media states that the Armenian videos are montaged and that the Azeris control the Talysh *heights*. My guess is that Azerbaijan captured and still controls most of the area north and east of Talysh while the Armenians retook the actual villages Talysh and Magadiz (where it is unclear whether the Azeris ever had control of Magadiz). Lots of propaganda in this conflict. 84.138.87.219 (talk) 00:06, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

You are violating the rules by only nitpicking sources for what fits your personal agenda. You cannot mention the half truth that the Armenian side acknowledges the positions were temporarily lost when their full position is they were regained. Melik-Shahnazarov is an ambassador to Russia, not "officials", and he's not even in Artsakh and cannot make that high of a claim, but even so he is referring to before the positions were retaken and you're taking the words out of context. Azerbaijan Defense Ministry acknowledged that Armenia's official position is the territories were reclaimed that [18] and this was most recently confirmed by Armenia Defense Ministry as well in a neutral source.[19] The territory bar should remain as it is, summarizing both sides completely, or it should be removed until a third party confirmation is made. --Oatitonimly (talk) 13:58, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't know, who you are referring to. I mentioned neither Melik-Shahnazarov nor "officials". 84.138.87.219 (talk) 20:37, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Israel Barouk, a third-party RS?

Israel Barouk, a blogger out of Israel, has been writing biased articles for quite some time now. In this specific article "Azerbaijan under siege: A friend of Israel in need of our support" is explicitly one-sided and is nothing but WP:ADVOCACY. The article contains language such as:

• "one that engages in actual and inhumane warfare on the ground while simultaneously terrorizing the media and the public with a different set of weapons."
• "While Armenia terrorizes Azerbaijan"
• "Armenia is inserting a deceitful narrative in order to obtain Western public sympathy for something very wrong, namely unlawful occupation and brutal ethnic cleansing."
• "The Armenian occupation and campaign of terror against Azerbaijan’s Karabakh region..."

This is just from this article alone. The rest of his articles has a similar language and tone. If a user finds it reliable or wants to prove that it is...please take it to the WP:RSN. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:23, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

When the sole reason why a source is considered as third party is because the writer is neither Azerbaijani nor Armenian, it means that its credibility is fed from the name (in this case Jewish, but it could be his title too, etc. ) but not the knowledge he transmits. A real third party source will be agreed as such regardless of the ethnic makeup of the reader. In simple terms, if his identity was not exposed (Jewish), would you have claimed he was Azerbaijani? By the simple fact that you could have leveled any such claims would render this source as obsolete. But if we are going to set such a standard most articles will crumble on their own weight.

Just to give you an example, which I have updated in modern language from ancient Islamic alchemy. Imagine that one day, someone produce an eutectic alloy which was reverse engineered to have all the properties of gold. The only claim to reject it as real would be that gold is a distinct element in the periodical table with a distinct atomic structure. But the atomic structure relies entirely on process since we rely on machines to observe them. But here is the thing, someone who knows the precepts of the machine will know exactly what to do, so that this gold is identified as gold. Mind that this was impossible back when the periodical table was created. With any currently available computer with any basic software, it is theoretically possible to throw in several available cheap resources so that it returns you with different process and compositions. It can always be updated to accommodate variations of the availability and the market.

Now, what would make the claimed real gold more expensive? It's name (real gold)! Chemists will deny (see how Sufi scholars predicted everything) it, because some men a hundred year or so claimed each elements are different structurally. Everything is telling you its real gold and even scientists can't distinguish it! To claim it isn't real you have to claim that few men words are intemporal, but only Allah words are. Models are condemned to change because they are dependent to a dying name.

Sufi alchemists have even gone further by claiming that what makes gold, gold, are its properties which don't rely on process bound to a model. What this means, is that since the real gold is claimed to be real because of a model not directly observable, it is the one which is actually fake.And they provide a proof for that. Which of the two gold is not bound to a name, and therefor renewable resource? The one the chemist will claim as fake. But no matter the changing availability of the resources, since it does not rely on one particular substance (which means its fate is not related on particular physical substance), it is intemporal. This gold not only does not rust, but its availability is eternal, which means that its true value is actually higher and therefor is the real gold.

Now project this here with the source you have provided, if this material which you do not agree with, is solely added because of its name, it should be removed because its standing there for no legit reason than because of the writers ego (name, or call it what you will). If knowledge is gold, the real gold (knowledge) will never rust it is not bound to any changing norms or rules of the names which are all mortal. Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 23:42, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Would you PLEASE stop the meaningless rambling posts you are making on this talk page, Yaḥyā. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 01:56, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I already concluded with the meaningless rambling posts with the above. As I was yet unsure, with your answer I am set. Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 02:28, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

It is a garbage source that is not suitable for anything. Specifically for its use here, this article is about an ongoing event, but its author has not set foot anywhere near the conflict event that is the subject of this article so it is not a "third party source" (to quote the only bit of content from Yaḥyā's post that seems on topic) for claims about what is going on in that conflict event. But the content it was being used for is now gone - I have deleted it since alleged targeting of buildings is clearly not an "atrocity" even if it was in a suitable source and it was not simply alleged. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 02:11, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

This is getting hilarious as we see those [20] [21] [22] Armenian websites as Wikipedia source in the same article and our Armenian friends complain about Israel Barouk.--Abbatai 10:58, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

You have not rebutted my core objection that it is not an impartial third-party source for ongoing events because its author has not set foot in the region so has no firsthand knowledge of these ongoing events and must simply be regurgitating at a distance the content of Azeri reports. And you also decline to rebut EtienneDolet's core point that the extreme language the author uses precludes it being taken as a serious and impartial work that is usable as a reference on Wikipedia. There are maybe too many Armenian-language sources being used though when there are alternatives. Armenianow.com has English-language articles and has a reputation of impartiality. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 13:58, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Repetitive diplomatic statements

Spirit Ethanol reverted my attempt to make this article a little less messy twice. What I did was basically reduced the diplomatic statements that are almost completely copy pasted from one another to a sentence listing those countries. Countries (e.g. Turkey, Ukraine) which issued meaningful statements were left intact. --Երևանցի ^talk 20:23, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

@Yerevantsi: How about listing in prose countries that issued statements (along with sources), without quoting statement itself for repetitive/"standard condemnations"? Spirit Ethanol (talk) 20:49, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

It's possible to convert all the reactions into smoother prose without removing anything. For instance, "Multiple supranational bodies, countries and diplomats expressed their concern about the clashes. USA said so and so, European Union said, that...", etc. Brandmeister^talk 11:46, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Background refugees

The Armenian refugees from Azerbaijan is distantly relevant to Azeris from Karabakh expelled by Armenian forces. And it does not overlapwith the pervious sentences in the paragraph. So I suggest mention Azeri refugges only. Otherwise we need to take Azeris from Armenia as well. Thanks. --Abbatai 12:28, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

The so called atrocities

I find this section quite biased as it is an ongoing conflict sides spread propaganda news to have more support in international area. Therefore we either should remove all claims or include both sides allaged crimes and denials. Thanks. --Abbatai 12:33, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

If they were not alleged but proven, the section title would not have the word alleged in it. The real "so-called atrocities" issue is that the section has had content that are not atrocities at all, even if they were not alleged but firmly proven. Shelling buildings is not an "atrocity", shelling an ambulance and injuring nobody is not an "atrocity". If you disagree, I suggest we take it to arbitration. Allegations of decapitating prisoners or mutilating the bodies of civilians, regardless of the exact circumstances being known or not, are unquestionably alleged atrocities so should be included (along with any accompanying denials) if they are appropriately sourced. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 13:52, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I looked at the sources provided for Sloyan, none of them indicates he was alive during decapitation (including video and photos, that show merely a severed head). I think the section should clarify, that it's not known whether Sloyan was alive at that time, especially when Azeri source says he was killed in action. We should distinguish between atrocity and mutilation. If he was decapitated alive, that's an atrocity and if not, it's a mutilation. Brandmeister^talk 16:04, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I have some reluctance to go searching for reports or images of this incident, so I can't say. However, I think that mutilating the bodies of dead enemy combatants would still be considered an atrocity by most. While to some extent, what is held to be an atrocity is a matter of personal pov I don't think there really is much doubt that decapitating a dead soldier and then, it seems, displaying the result would be in the atrocity category. It is certainly against the Laws of War. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:05, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Cutting off civilian ears and mutilating a soldiers body is an atrocity. I think what we can do is have the title changed to "Alleged War Crimes" and have a section say "by Armenia", "by Azerbaijan in order to be neutral. Although I do agree both sides are notorious for spreading propaganda especially in times like this.Nocturnal781 (talk) 19:25, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Some more blatantly obvious than others. This screenshot from a recent Azerabaijani State TV video posted on YouTube shows a sign indicating the name of the village of Talysh, with Azerbaijani soldiers loitering around the area to give the impression that they are in control of the area...even though most sources confirm that the village had only been briefly overrun and was restored to the control of the NKR several days ago. Anyways, I got a great kick out of this :) --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:03, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I am against "Alleged War Crimes" as a section title - atrocities are not necessarily war crimes. Plus, do you really expect to see some international tribunal sitting to decide whether some unknown Azeri conscripts actually cut off some ears or not? Because of this, the word alleged will always have to remain if the title is War Crimes, even if the alleged atrocity is confirmed to have happened by impeccable sources. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:52, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

There appears to be more decapitated heads: [23] Étienne Dolet (talk) 22:16, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Maybe keep a screen shot of the page (not just the image), for future record. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:44, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

In the interest of objectivity, I would like to ask: what justifies the inclusion of the section on "Alleged War Crimes"? As far as I know, there are no reliable or independent sources reporting on this, so we do not know anything *at all* about whether the incidents took place or not. The whole thing could as well be an invention of the Armenian side (notice: I do not claim that it actually is an invention, just that we cannot be sure). Will we also add sections to the article for all other claims that one party of the conflict makes without supplying any proof? Also: is the mutilation of 2-3 people so integral to the conflict that we have to include a whole hypothetical section about those completely unproven incidents? Do not mistake me - I condemn such acts, if they actually took place. However, this is an encyclopedia, not a collection of claims of partisan media. 84.138.87.219 (talk) 22:25, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I disagree, there are plenty of sources for the allegations and the media outlets that carry them seem generally reliable. We are using reports by the same outlets for much of the article's content. How about changing the section title to "Allegations of atrocities" for now? The allegations are integral because the incidents they describe (and the clashes themselves) could relate to the collective mentality of Azerbaijan, where race hate against Armenians has been carefully cultivated and encouraged at state level (there are sources for this). There is nothing surprising about these atrocities having happened if they are proven to have happened, they are predictable from a country whose president has, on record, praised the decapitation of a sleeping Armenian soldier in the past. 22:39, 8 April 2016 (UTC)Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk)

As far as I know, the media outlets that carry the allegations all are Armenian news outlets that are under - more or less direct - control of the Armenian government (i.e. state TV, reports of announcements of the Armenian MoD by Armenian media). I highly doubt that these sources are generally reliable regarding the conflict with Azerbaijan, since they represent an involved party in a bitter conflict that is known for its amount of propaganda and fog of war. However, I agree with your second argument that previous reports and the behavior of the Azerbaijani government indicate that "atrocities" committed by Azerbaijan would not be surprising. So you convinced me, though I think it would be reasonable to state that the allegations have not been proven at all and could not be verified independently. 84.138.87.219 (talk) 23:07, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I found this [24] which is third party. But it uses Armenian sources of course. The best we can do is say "According to Armenian sources" to keep it neutral.Nocturnal781 (talk) 23:44, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Armenianow is definitely not under the control of the Armenian government. It has an article on the atrocity allegations [25]. Has rather tabloidy language though: "deadly Grad multiple rocket launchers" - are there any military rockets that are not intended to be deadly? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:31, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Again, the article states as a fact that the head of this soldier was returned to Armenia by Azerbaijan via the Red Cross. The only source for this is some Armenian media outlet. Thus the section reads, as if there was reliable proof for the alleged war crimes, which however appears not to be the case. Please use reliable, unbiased sources, or if that is not possible (as no objective journalists are allowed on the ground), at least qualify the statements by adding that "according to Armenian/Azerbaijan media, ...". 84.138.87.219 (talk) 19:30, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

New clashes

Please update the article. [26] --78.1.74.196 (talk) 14:16, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

more: http://www.centralasiatimes.com/index.php/sid/242972497 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.1.74.196 (talk) 14:17, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Azerbaijani losses

the section is called losses Per Azerbaijani sources: (not official death toll). Meydan tv is a reliable Azerbaijani source. A reliable source is free to analyse and use any information including social media. OptimusView (talk) 07:13, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Do you understand Azerbaijani? if you do please take a look at comments section several users are commenting that some information is unreliable, names double count as well some deceased are from January not relating to April clashes, just because its opposition does not make it reliable, citing it along official losses does not make sense since MeydanTV is not MOD! please add that section to claims rather than official. Agulani (talk) 07:48, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

While using a source user comments couldn't be taken into account. See WP:NEWSORG. Lkahd (talk) 08:25, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Well that's interesting because that's what Exactly MeydanTV is doing they are taking into account comments and unverified pictures from internet i'm taking this source down as it has no reliability. Here is article on unreliability of MeydanTV either we list it as claim or we take it off , Lets keep this numbers as professional and official as we can in case you want to include this numbers we need to involve 3rd neutral parties and let the community until then they need to be down as they have no stable proof except from social media which you noted cant be taken into account Agulani (talk) 09:35, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree with @OptimusView: and @Lkahd:. So, I would ask you to please stop removing properly sourced information and its sources. A compromis was made in regards that the wording was changed so we are referring to any kind of Azeri or Armenian sources and not just official ones. Per WP policy, that they are citing social media does not matter if the source we are citing is itself a proper media outlet (which it is). In this regard WP:SECONDARY policy applies. OptimusView also explained this. PS I should also warn you, you made 4 reverts of editors (in 24 hours) in this regard, breaking the 3RR policy which can get you blocked. 1st revert of me [27] 2nd and 3rd revert of OptimusView [28] [29] and 4th revert of Lkahd [30]. So I would kindly, and in the best possible faith, ask that you refrain from any other reverts and stick to the discussion page or you will have to be reported. Cheers. EkoGraf (talk) 11:54, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Azerbaijani OFFICIAL losses estimates: Several indications which can hardly be refuted tell us that those numbers are bogus. Just to name two of the most obvious.

• The extremely low wounded vs casualties ratio does not make sense.

• From what was provided in this article, there was at no time any missing list provided. All casualties and wounded were immediately reported as such. Unless the Azerbaijani government has an innovative way of communication not even available from the countries which sells them all the equipments, this makes little sense.

Credible informations sit on the mass, they do not feed on solely one source which is prone to become obsolete. Like I wrote in my long comment [[31] on what adds virtue to knowledge (gold), is that its fate does not depend on one particular physical medium (name, source, call it what you want).

In this case the only reason why the only source which is included is its name (official), when common sense tell us that those same sources are those to reject. That's the reason I previously wrote that unless both sides agree with what went on, there is no other option than remove the article completely. Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 13:52, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Edit request

Could someone add a sentence, the fact that in several instances this conflict has been called as the "Four-day war"?

• http://www.armenianow.com/karabakh/71283/armenia_karabakh_azerbaijan_politicians_negotiations_ceasefire
• http://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/analyses/2016-04-06/four-day-war-nagorno-karabakh
• http://en.apa.az/xeber____four-day_war_____changed_status_quo__bala_241824.html
• http://www.panorama.am/en/news/2016/04/09/Serzh-Sargsyan-Levon-Ter-Petrosyan/1560621

Thanks, --93.137.185.229 (talk) 19:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Continuation?

I say the clashes have returned to pre-Apr 2 levels, this episode of excalation did end with the ceasefire. Any thoughts? User:EkoGraf and others?--93.137.185.229 (talk) 08:55, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

If it continues as it is for a few more days than yes. EkoGraf (talk) 10:33, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

IF all pro-Armenian side posts are included what do you expect? Legit words of Tedovsyan are out but hypothetical claims of Meydan TV are in, Talk about the neutrality obviously when the Moderators keep being biased that the result you get Agulani (talk) 19:57, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Abbatai is edit warring

I noticed the Background section mentioned the Azeris who were displaced by the Karabakh conflict originally, and I added the number of Armenians who were displaced as well. User Abbatai swapped (without comment) the numbers so that the Azeris were listed before the Armenians. I reverted and, he reverted, and then twice other people reverted him and he reverted back, never with a legitimate reason why Armenians shouldn't be listed first, the way I have added them. If he wants to include other numbers of Azeri refugees (the only reasoning he's brought up), that is still irrelevant to the order, which is what he has been swapping repeatedly (5 reverts in total so far). Can someone please put these numbers back in the original order and block him from reverting without a real, legitimate reason that has been agreed to here? Below is the edit history. Thank you, --RaffiKojian (talk) 13:51, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

• I added the Armenian refugees: (→‎Background: balancing a very one-sided section that only mentioned Azeri refugees and only mentioned the principal of territorial integrity, completely leaving out the Armenian perspective.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2016_Armenian%E2%80%93Azerbaijani_clashes&oldid=713904887

• Abbatai swaps the positions without comment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2016_Armenian%E2%80%93Azerbaijani_clashes&oldid=714032118

• I put them back to the original order with the comment: (→‎Background: why did it go from not mentioning Armenian refugees at all, to me adding them, then you swapping their mentions? is there any reason you should change the order?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2016_Armenian%E2%80%93Azerbaijani_clashes&oldid=714044690

• He immediately reverts with the comment: (Undid revision 714044690 by RaffiKojian (talk) armenian refugees from other parts of Azerbaijan is less relevant comparin refugees from Karabakh that the conflict occoured)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2016_Armenian%E2%80%93Azerbaijani_clashes&oldid=714046599

• I revert it back: (→‎Background: the Armenian refugees from Karabakh are mentioned in my number, and you just reverted for a reason you invented, so please don't revert again without an *actual* reason AND discussing it on the talk page.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2016_Armenian%E2%80%93Azerbaijani_clashes&oldid=714100030

• Abbatai reverts: (→‎Background: Armenian refugees are not result of Armenian occcupation)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2016_Armenian%E2%80%93Azerbaijani_clashes&oldid=714219902

• OptimusView reverts: (Undid revision 714219902 by Abbatai (talk) a result of conflict)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2016_Armenian%E2%80%93Azerbaijani_clashes&oldid=714222708

• Abbatai reverts it again. (Undid revision 714222708 by OptimusView (talk) Armenian refugees from azerbaijanare less relevant to topic as i said before please explain why you change it before reverting in talk page.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2016_Armenian%E2%80%93Azerbaijani_clashes&oldid=714223499

• Baking Soda reverts it back to the original: (Undid revision 714223499 by Abbatai (talk) Please discuss on talk page this is fourth revert...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2016_Armenian%E2%80%93Azerbaijani_clashes&oldid=714223589

• Abbatai reverts it again: (→‎Background: see talk)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2016_Armenian%E2%80%93Azerbaijani_clashes&oldid=714235671

This is arbitrary, there is no legitimate reason why one or the other should be first.

Why not creating a bot account, with a calendar, which switch versions alternating between both? A known calendar accessible from the site. Those taking Azerbaijani sides will know not to visit at the page the given days and same for those taking Armenian side. Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 20:31, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it's arbitrary. That's why there's no reason why it should be changed from the original way the numbers were added. --RaffiKojian (talk) 10:53, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

What is original way? The paragraph according to your edits says As a result of Armenian occupation of Azerbaijan 430.000 Armenians displaced that is nonsense. Please before changing it just read carefully what it says. And I am flattered to see my name here. :) I reverted pages by directing users who vandalize page to talk page for discussion. Thanks --Abbatai 11:29, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Getting Too Pro-Armenian, All pro-Azerbaijani sources are removed

I cant notice that the article is getting very Armenian biased correct me if i'm wrong 1) Azerbaijan gained several heights which according to most Russian experts is important even so called "NKR"representative in Moscow said they were important heights and positions, however; once i include it it either gets removed or edited to "Limited gains" 2) The official death toll of Azerbaijan is 31, however, Meydan Tv mentions 87 which i repeatedly said is wrong since they collect any name of picture of person appearing online, some of this guys are spec-ops and they obviously will not post on social media saying they are still alive, MeydanTV even mentions the list is hypothetical and based on their assumption, my any attempt at bringing in some sense and being in "edit war" 3) Tedevosyan is Armenian Major General his words that state Azerbaijan gained its all initial goals is more important than any expert since its opposite side that is actually making the claim why is it being removed when it was there since the day he said the words? I'm having a hard time understanding all this, isn't Wikipedia supposed to be neutral? Agulani (talk) 19:54, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

I removed the number 87 for you, because my understanding is that this info box is listing only official numbers and claims, not what TV stations claim, regardless if they're Azeri sources. Perhaps the box should say official? Please add a reference for the number 31 however. On Tuesday the number was 28 admitted deaths on the Azeri side and 29 soldier & 5 civilians on the Armenian side - http://www.armenialiberty.org/content/article/27655825.html

Regarding Tadevosyan, it would be relevant in an analysis section, rather than a section dedicated to summarizing the actual action/events. I see it's there now and really it doesn't fit in that section in my opinion.

I haven't gotten a look into the hill issue you bring up, but the article should certainly mention that some minor heights in the south were taken if I understand the situation correctly. I am not saying minor because they are or aren't important, but because they are not very high as far as heights go, just heights relative to an otherwise very flat area.

--RaffiKojian (talk) 08:29, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Actually no, if you would read the discussion up above, consensus was we are not including only official numbers/claims, but any Armenian or Azeri claims. Meydan TV was deemed as a well-established Azeri source and per WP policy on neutrality and presenting all points of view, their estimate was presented as an upper toll in the Azeri claim category, with the government's claim as the lower toll. EkoGraf (talk) 12:14, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Now [32] its no longer just Meydan TV, but also the Azeri media outlet Azadliq, citing the Khazar military research institute. EkoGraf (talk) 12:24, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I proposed here [33] a way to resolve the issue by creating a bot account which follows a calendar. Neither sides will ever compromise because of the inherent limitations of any formal axiomatic system (simple extension of Gödel's incompleteness theorems), axioms which inclusions or exclusions rely entirely on arbitrary parameters. More so, when the open exposition (to assess credibility) of sources goes against the very principles underlying double blinding in research. In short, this edit war does not necessarily document malice in either side because both side are confronted to unresolvable limitations of the system itself. Answer is found in the conversion of analog signals into digital by alternating in time to form an accurate approximation. Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 13:16, 11 April 2016 (UTC)