Talk:ThinkProgress

Vandalism

Someone vandalized this page. The quote should say : 'seeks to provide a forum that advances progressive ideas and politics, which is what's actually on the site page. It says instead, 'seeks to provide a forum that advances radical leftist ideas. This certainly does not belong here. Stop, please.Van Gulik (talk) 14:40, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Expansion

This page could definitely use some expansion. Articles like this or this are good examples of sources that could be involved in sections. I know the story around the second one was a big deal. Spangled53 (talk) 01:11, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Staff volunteers or paid?

Are all the people with all these posts paid workers or are they volunteers? Is that made clear anywhere? 81.174.156.198 (talk) 18:41, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

They're all paid bloggers. See http://thinkprogress.org/about/ What made you think otherwise? -- 19:34, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Fear Inc.

This report [1] was published by the Center for American Progress, and not under the ThinkProgress banner. It's unclear to me why we would be including it on this page. Also, to establish notability of a report requires more than a link to the report on the publishing organization's website, it requires coverage elsewhere in the media. Thanks. Safehaven86 (talk) 16:02, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

While I agree analysis starts with RSs, I'm just observing that "notability" only applies to the general topic "ThinkProgress" and should we even have an article about that general topic. Once that has been established, matters of content - like this - are controlled by other policies & guidelines. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:12, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Good points. My issue is that the Fear Inc. report was clearly published by Center for American Progress so if it's going to be included, it should be on that page, not here. Safehaven86 (talk) 16:22, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

The old Islamophobia report was summarized in greater detail previously but deleted from this article a few years ago, when editors agreed that it did not represent a significant controversy. ThinkProgress publishes about 40 blogs a day, including lots of such reports, and that one report is not significant in the history of the site. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:03, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Washington Post/Politico ref'd section

For reasons unknown, editors have removed a section ref'd to the Washington Post, Politico and Glen Greenwald. These were substantial articles by reliable sources on the subject of this article. The material is on point for this article. Is there any policy based reason not to include? Capitalismojo (talk) 01:06, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I will point out that the editor removing this pointed to as justification WP:CRIT which is both an essay not policy and seems off point in this case. Per the CRIT essay, it would be appropriate to possibly add some additional explanatory material. WP:CRIT does not suggest deleting extremely well sourced material because it is uncomfortable to the organization involved. Capitalismojo (talk) 01:09, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Please read WP:CSECTION and explain how your addition justifies a separate "controversy" section. See also WP:N. This is not even a "controversy", just some criticism, and the criticism is of CAP, not ThinkProgress. The crux of what you added (two repetitive sentences) is: "ThinkProgress has been criticized by some major American Jewish organizations ... over charges that some [CAP] staffers have publicly used language that could be construed as anti-Israel or even anti-Semitic." Again, this is wrong, because the criticism was of CAP staffers, not ThinkProgress. Furthermore, you failed to give CAP's response to this criticism, and to note the statements of Third Way, the National Jewish Democratic Council and others dismissing the criticism, as quoted in the Wa Po article. As the Washington Post article notes, "many liberals have grown more critical of Israel’s policies as the government there has turned more to the right." This dated article, and the criticism it discusses, seem to be of ephemeral interest at best. The Politico article that you cite says nothing at all about criticism of ThinkProgress. Finally, the 2015 The Intercept article recalls these two old articles and notes that "these CAP writers stood accused of failing to sufficiently praise the Netanyahu government." There may be something of interest to say about the 2015 article, but you didn't say it. Websites like ThinkProgress are criticized all the time by people with opposing political views. This incident does not seem more significant than numerous others. See WP:UNDUE and WP:BALANCE. See also this. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:12, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Please present your proposed addition and proposed sources at talk. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 15:05, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

An editor has again added information about random critiques of ThinkProgress, but as I read the sources, it was apparent that they 1) are still mostly ephemeral critiques -- political outlets are usually criticized from time to time for coverage of something; 2) conflate ThinkProgress and CAP, even though ThinkProgress has its own editorial board; 3) misuse the sources; and 4) make little effort to provide balanced discussion -- see my previous comment above. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:12, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Could you please elaborate on your four points above? This Politico article is the most in-depth organizational profile I've found to date, so I don't see why you removed most of the information sourced to it. It's certainly WP:RS. Fully removing the well-sourced information on Israel does not seem appropriate. Based on the wide variety of reliable sources that have covered the issue, it certainly seems notable. If you feel the material lacks balance, please add some, but halving the size of the article doesn't seem to be the answer. Safehaven86 (talk) 21:18, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I already elaborated above in my November comment. The burden, per WP:BRD, is for you to explain why you think that any of this is significant enough to be encyclopedic, and if you are going to put it in the article, then you have to use the sources in a Neutral way and to give a balanced presentation of the facts. As I read the material you inserted, it was easy to see from the sources that you were cherry-picking and even incorrectly attributing things to ThinkProgress that were only the views of one writer or even had to do with CAP rather than ThinkProgress. So, I think that the content you are trying to add is not neutral, as well as probably not significant, and you have done nothing since I raised my objection in November to persuade me otherwise, and instead merely added more ephemeral criticism to the article that does not satisfy WP:CSECTION. Per WP:BRD, I suggest that you start a discussion on the first of the three sections quoted below, and present your argument as to why you think it is significant/encyclopedic, and if you can persuade other editors of that, then I would be happy to explain if I still don't think you are using your sources neutrally. Then we can move on to the other section and soon cover all three. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:40, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

FYI, you may have me confused with another editor--I did not add any of this material to the article in November. It looks like User:Capitalismojo did. But the content I inserted is quite different and I believe significantly more neutral. Safehaven86 (talk) 21:47, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't care who added it, but I must disagree. I am responding to the material that you added today. I read it and saw immediately that it was not neutral. As an example, you always say that Politico "reported" something, but that Thinkprogress "alleged" something. I am trying to be polite here, but as another example, your presentation of the Ben Smith article greatly overstates what it says about ThinkProgress (and also what it says about Jewish organizations) and it also attributes things to ThinkProgress that should be attributed either to an individual or to CAP. Smith doesn't say at all that AIPAC criticized ThinkProgress's coverage. You have to make a huge WP:OR leap to say that it does. That is just one of your sources, and I don't see anything in it that is worth noting in an encyclopedia. As I read your sources, each of them seemed inadequate or non-neutrally used. The first ref that you added, to Politico makes it clear that Political has an agenda against ThinkProgress. The opening sentence should instead be referenced to a neutral source like -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:08, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Politico is a highly reliable source. Persons with a theory that it is not a RS because it criticizes an organization should take those concerns to RS/N. It is clear that the refs are RS and I see no policy based reason for exclusion. Capitalismojo (talk) 22:40, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Nowhere in my edits do I say that ThinkProgress "alleged" anything, so I'm not sure what you're referring to. The Politico article very clearly deals with ThinkProgress, and I don't think there's any question that Politico is a WP:RS, although you can take it to the RS noticeboard if you like. From the Politico article, you can see that the post criticized by AIPAC was authored by ThinkProgress National Security reporter Eli Clifton:

"The daily battle is waged in Media Matters’ emails, on CAP’s blogs, Middle East Progress and ThinkProgress and most of all on Twitter..."

"In one recent item, for instance, ThinkProgress National Security reporter Eli Clifton took issue with a Quinnipiac University poll that made reference to Iran’s 'nuclear program.'"

"ThinkProgress also scrambled to call into question an alleged Iranian plot to assassinate Saudi diplomats in the United States, though the charges were leveled by Attorney General Eric Holder, a longtime Democratic Party stalwart. “With analysts and the media still scratching their heads over what to make of a convoluted plot alleged to have been hatched by an Iranian American in collusion with Mexican drug cartels,” Clifton wrote, “[conservative think tanks] – along with their friends in Congress — are quickly declaring the end of diplomatic strategies to curb Iran’s nuclear program and regional ambitions. The villain: AIPAC. 'It would appear that AIPAC is now using the same escalating measures against Iran that were used before the invasion of Iraq,' Clifton wrote in August. Clifton’s post and others like it, two sources said, drew a furious reaction from the pro-Israel group, whose executives called CAP chairman John Podesta and other senior officials at the organization to complain." Safehaven86 (talk) 22:49, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Disputed content

For reference, the various chunks of disputed content, with sourcing below. Per WP:DONTREVERT, surely at least some of this content is salvageable:

• CAP and ThinkProgress

ThinkProgress is a project of the Center for American Progress Action Fund, a 501(c)(4) nonprofit group. The Center for American Progress Action Fund, which plays a central role in the Democratic Party’s infrastructure, does not disclose its donors. In 2011, Politico reported that the ThinkProgress reporting staff "isn’t exactly walled off from that message machine, nor does it necessarily keep its distance from liberal groups organizing advocacy campaigns targeting conservatives."

• Israel

In 2011, Politico reported that Media Matters for America and the Center for American Progress (CAP), the parent organization of ThinkProgress, were "two of the Democratic Party’s core institutions challenging a bipartisan consensus on Israel and Palestine." Politico's Ben Smith reported that ThinkProgress was involved in taking a critical stance on Israel through reports which challenged the idea than Iran has a nuclear program and called into question an alleged Iranian plot to assassinate Saudi diplomats in the United States. ThinkProgress's coverage of Israel was criticized by the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, a pro-Israel lobbying group. According to The Washington Post, several Jewish organizations leveled charges that "some center staffers have publicly used language that could be construed as anti-Israel or even anti-Semitic."

In 2012, Faiz Shakir, then-editor of ThinkProgress, apologized for blogger Zaid Jilani's use of the term "Israel-firsters" on his personal Twitter account. Jilani and fellow ThinkProgress blogger Ali Gharib apologized for "asserting that American Jews and a non-Jewish Republican senator serve the interests of the Israeli government over the security of the United States."

In 2015, Glenn Greenwald of The Intercept reported that ThinkProgress writers had been censored in their coverage of Israel. Greenwald wrote that CAP had gone to great lengths to placate AIPAC and long-time Clinton operative and Israel activist Ann Lewis. The impetus for Greenwald's reporting on the subject was a series of leaked internal emails from CAP which revealed that the organization would host an event for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

• Jilani

In 2014, former ThinkProgress staffer Zaid Jilani said that when he wrote for the blog, he was pressured to support President Barack Obama's policies, particularly in regards to the Afghanistan troop surge. ThinkProgress editor Judd Legum denied that the blog's editorial process was swayed by the White House.

References

Reporting on Israel

Right now, this section is a massive violation of WP:WEIGHT because it takes up almost half the prose of the entire article. That's just ridiculous. Moreover, most of the material seems to be concerned with the Center for American Progress and Media Matters for America, rather than ThinkProgress specifically. I hope editors working on this section will dramatically reduce the amount of content shortly, or I'll be forced to invoke WP:BRD and remove the entire section pending discussion here. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:11, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree the section is much too long and taking up too much space in the article. Right now, a tremendous amount of detail is being given to each source and event. What would be best is if someone could summarize the gist of the current content into one or two overview paragraphs. Safehaven86 (talk) 17:22, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

We are required to provide sufficient background that our readers can understand our content. Our neutrality pillar requires that we fairly summarize all significant points of view. Non-neutral would be for us to echo the charges of anti-Semitism without background, as a recent version of this section did. A recent version of this section made no mention of the efforts of Block, efforts documented in multiple RS. Of course charges of anti-Semitism are emotion-charged and require careful handling. Of course it is not surprising that the far right pro-Israeli interests charge a news agency with anti-Semitism for being critical of Netanyahu's policies; but if the anti-Semitism charges are to be included in our project, context is required by WP policy. Hugh (talk) 17:40, 2 December 2015 (UTC) Coverage in WP is proportional to coverage in RS, and a lot of ink was spilt on this bit of media theater. Hugh (talk) 18:30, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand this edit, with edit summary "TWO sources in-text, or neither." Glenn Greenwald wrote both pieces, so what is the point of adding that the pieces were in Salon and the Intercept? My edit mentioned neither Salon or The Intercept, but just Glenn Greenwald, because he's the common denominator as the author of both articles. To me this is an example of where we can be shortening up the section by avoiding the insertion of unnecessary details. Safehaven86 (talk) 17:51, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

In WP terms, Salon or The Intercept are two sources by nature of their two independent editorial processes. I would support removing in-text attribution, as multiple reliable sources support this content. Both or neither, but attribution to the author alone in-text as if it were an editorial opinion is improper. Hugh (talk) 17:59, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with your comment about background and neutrality; however, it is important that the matter at hand is covered in the appropriate WP:WEIGHT. At the moment, the article gives the impression that the "reporting on Israel" by ThinkProgress is the most significant aspect in the history of the organization. Obviously, that is complete nonsense. There are two significant problems here. First of all, much of the section appears to refer to the Center for American Progress and Media Matters for America, rather than ThinkProgress specifically, as I mentioned before. Secondly, the amount of coverage is disproportionate to the importance of the coverage, and thus violates WP:WEIGHT. Let me reiterate what I said earlier: unless this section is dramatically reduced in size to (at the most) a single paragraph, I will remove it per WP:BRD and it will not be re-added until new text can be worked out on the article's talk page and a consensus has formed that agrees with it being in the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:43, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Please collaborate and make your case without threatening. There is no policy violation here such that section blanking is reasonable WP:ROWN. Thank you. Be constructive: what would you trim? You can't pare it down to the bare charge of antisematism; the charge requires context and background and explanation. A recent version of this section made no mention that the dispute was largely over the term "Israel firster", left it to the reader's imagination what the racial slur might be, and made no mention of Twitter, leaving the impression it was the ThinkProgress itself involved, and made no mention of Block's activities. Sad as it may be, our article's recently introduced coverage of the antisemitism dust-up is not outrageous, given the barrels of ink spilt; many, many sources are not included in our article, our article is yet well short of proportional to coverage in RS. I don't know what we can trim while being fair. What would you cut while being fair? Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 03:32, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I am not familiar with the details of the issue, so I am not (for the moment) qualified to trim as you suggest. I'm busy for the next few hours, but I will look into the details of the matter upon my return and try to come up with a more reasonable paragraph. In the meantime, I must remind you that much of what the section says concerns two other organizations and not ThinkProgress, so it would seem most of it should belong in the articles for those other two organizations. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:41, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Another way to deal with WP:WEIGHT concerns would be to add new content unrelated to this blog's coverage of Israel. If we simply removed all of the information about Israel, we'd A) be neglecting our responsibility to include events that have been covered in numerous reliable sources over several years and B) we'd be back to an article in which the Chamber of Commerce brouhaha would appear, based on space given in the article, to be the most notable aspect of ThinkProgress. I certainly support trimming the Israel content as I said above, although my efforts at trimming it were mostly reverted today. Removing the whole section is not the answer. I doubt the Israel coverage is the most notable aspect of this blog, so if it's not, what is? Let's add those things to the article. Safehaven86 (talk) 01:40, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't remove the whole section on the expectation it would never be returned. Rather this would be part of the WP:BRD process. As it stands now, the section is so large it totally misrepresents the organization, which is why it is better out than in. Update: I had not noticed trimming had taken place since yesterday. The current text is a big improvement over how it looked yesterday, but it still seems to be more about CAP and MMfA than ThinkProgress. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:41, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I tried to trim to the limit of fairness to the subject. ThinkProgress was caught in a well-documented, orchestrated smear campaign directed at CAP, MMfA, and ThinkProgress, so some mention of CAP and MMfA is necessary to a fair, unbiased, complete, accurate treatment of this unfortunate episode. For example, if an editor chooses to add the smear campaign to our project's articles on CAP or MMfA, they would likely include mention of ThinkProgress. It is OK for an article in our project to mention things that are not the subject of the article. It is not off-topic, it is not a major editorial issue. Glad to hear you are not contemplating unilateral section blanking. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 15:52, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I've edited it down a bit - mostly cutting out unnecessary exposition and redundancy. I'm sort of okay with it now, although looking at the sources I am inclined to think the "Israel firsters" paragraph should probably be excluded because it belongs in Zaid Jilani, not this article. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:16, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your edits. I think the section is about as short as it can get. For the record, I did not start the antisemitism section, another editor did a drive-by add, as I said without details such as the term "Israeli-firster." Like you I guess I tend to think it unsurprising that an American news agency critical of Netanyahu administration policies is charged with antisemitism, on the other hand, LOTS of sources are out there on this episode and our readers may come to us for a neutral summary. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 20:37, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I just noticed that in July an IP address deleted one of the paragraphs with "This paragraph refers to the actions of the Center For American Progress, not ThinkProgress and belong on the Center For American Progress page." I checked the sourcing, and The Intercept source specifically refers to the ThinkProgress writing ("the height of the controversy over ThinkProgress’ publications on Israel...") However, looking at the further sourcing in that section (WaPo, Salon), that does seem to specifically be about CAP. I think the information about the petition should be moved to the CAP page (Center for American Progress#Criticism already has some information about Greenwald/Israel, but doesn't seem to mention the WaPo petition stuff). Safehaven86 (talk) 14:33, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

That would seem logical, although as I said in my edit summary, the sourcing is somewhat questionable (blogs/editorials). -- Scjessey (talk) 15:55, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:40, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Self-published sources

Hi, I see there's some disagreement about self-published sources--I had removed some (although not all) per the self-published criteria about sources that are self-serving and constitute too much of the basis of the entry. There is no shortage of reliable independent source reporting on ThinkProgress; neutrality's best served by focusing on those. Innisfree987 (talk) 13:19, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

While it is true self-published sources are not preferred, I agree with the restoration performed by Ssilvers on the basis that these are simple, non-controversial facts that do not need additional verification. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:52, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

I really think it does the entry a disservice. The page drew my attention because of a debate about how emails between the EIC and the Clinton campaign should be covered if at all, with problems of primary and unreliable sourcing; and I see here on the talk page, this is just the most recent in a line of such debates. I might feel differently if this were a stable page, but as neutrality is a recurring issue, I think all additions to the entry need to be held to the same high sourcing standards. Innisfree987 (talk) 14:18, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

I commend you for trying to maintain the highest standard, but in this particular instance I think we can safely use the sources restored by Ssilvers, since they are uncontroversial and undisputed. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:56, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Innisfree, if you can find reliable third-party sources that verify the information stated, then they could replace the WP:SELFPUB ones, but, pursuant to that guideline, these sources are acceptable. All the best. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:47, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

DailyCaller is not a "self-published source," it's a news source will full-time staff that work on Capitol Hill, including part of the White House Press Pool https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Caller#Staff_and_contributors http://dailycaller.com/author/christian-datoc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.228.120 (talk) 17:55, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

The section on pro-Clinton bias should remain

The Washington Post article "Hacked emails show how liberal group back-channeled advice to Clinton" says right in the title that there was a pro-Clinton bias. If you don't think this means "Anti-Sanders" then edit to remove the phrase, "Anti-Sanders."

Removing a section should be a last resort - edit, don't revert. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Revert_only_when_necessary#Unacceptable_reversions — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.228.120 (talk) 17:43, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm fine with citing this reliable source. However, when a reliable source calls it "advice to Clinton", then we should use something similar. Neutrality obliges us to follow RS analysis rather than substituting our own. Innisfree987 (talk) 17:50, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

OK, so please revert the deleted text and edit the wording, thanks!