Talk:Luther Bible

Luther did not translate to "erode the influence of priests"

Luther did not want priests or higher clerics to lord it over the people's faith. He wanted to get people as close to Christ as he could by putting the Bible into their own words. Luther was a conservative, not a radical reformer. This article has the makings of a good article. I hope that those who initiated it will not see this as a criticism but as an enhancement of what they did.drboisclair 01:35, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Kudos

David, kudos on a very well done page. Might you consider using Schaff's material on the Luther Bible here?

I think that this material can and should be integrated into the article, but I think that after having incorporating the data the text could be transferred to Wikiquote via Transwiki. Schaaf-Herzog sub loco Martin Luther was the material out of which the Martin Luther article was written. I will work on incorporating it here if there is no objection. --Drboisclair 18:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Oops, sorry, I got the two sources mixed up! The source of the long quotation is Schaff's history, not Schaaf's encyclopedia.--Drboisclair 20:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Schaff material archived

I thought that since the material was rather lengthy I would put it in the above archive. The material in the main article has been transwikied to Wikiquote. I hope that this meets with everyone's approval. I will be integrating the Schaff material into the main article by quotation and allusion.--Drboisclair 16:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

What from?

What was the OT translated from? Article says nothing on this very basic point. Johnbod 17:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Very good question. AFAIK it was translated from different texts, which were prepared and translated by Luther and his collaborators. In the German Wikipedia article on the Luther Bible, there is an (unsourced) statement ascribed to Johannes Mathesius, one of Luther's pupils. According to this statement, he claims that "Philipp Melanchthon prepared the Septuagint text, and Caspar Creuziger prepared the Rabbinic Bible of Jakob Ben Chajim (probably referring to the Second Bomberg Edition (Bombergiana), a 16th century version of the Masoretic Text edited by Jacob ben Hayyim ibn Adonijah and printed by Daniel Bomberg in Venice)".

Mathesius is generally considered as a mostly reliable source concerning Luther, however unsourced statements are always a pain. I've tried to look up the original source of this statement, and it appears that it's Mathesius' Luthers Leben in Predigten (Luthers Life in Sermons). On p. 316 Mathesius actually describes how Luther and other scholars (Creuziger, Melanchton etc.) met, and how they discussed and translated different Bible texts. However, he is not very specific about which texts they used, merely refering to them as "the Hebrew text", "the Greek text" etc., writing that "Herr Philippus contributed the Greek text, Doctor Creuziger contributed the Hebrew text and the Chaldeic Bible. The Professors also brought their Rabbinic Bibles, and Doctor Pommer had a Latin text which he knew very well." The "Chaldaic Bible", which probably refers to the Targum - for the details please see the citation I added to the infobox today, which includes a transcribed version and an attempt at translating this text passage.

Now while IMHO it is not clear from Mathesius' description that the texts he mentioned actually refer to the Septuagint, the Bombergiana etc., this may still very well be true: The Septuagint is a Greek text, and the Bombergiana is a Hebrew text. However, it would be great if someone who knows more about this subject than a humble amateur like me could contribute his opinion on this subject. --Shinryuu (talk) 17:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Info Box?

Maybe we should include an info box to the right per other Bible Translation pages. See New American Standard Bible for an example. 68.113.47.82 22:49, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Shinryuu (talk) 16:25, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Separation from Rome

I recall that in the 2003 film Luther, Frederick the Wise said "this will separate us from Rome forever", referring to breaking the monopoly of the Bible being published in Latin, a language the common German folk rarely understood. Can we put something alluding to this in the article? -NordsternMN 19:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC) A film is not a Reliable Source. This applies to fiction generally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.202.155 (talk) 12:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Besides, there had been translations before, or hadn't there? --91.34.219.151 (talk) 10:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

This is a complex question. Yes there existing Bibles before Luther, but Luther first spoke for the priesterhip of all believers (Ptiestertum aller Gläubigen), for this idea it was clear that people needs a good Bible-translation. The Bibles before Luther, does not have this complex and so on. But on the other hand Luther wanted to reform the church and in this time it was possible that the roman church will give Luther possibly swiftly right. But it is true, it is a time of Luther life, in which the difference were very big. The Church of Rome prefered in this time not a translation into the German language. The Vulgata was the right Bible for them, and so on. --- But I would not say that a film is a source for the wikipedia. --- On the other hand I have not the time etc. to look into books, and so on. --Soenke Rahn (talk) 23:01, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Chronology

"The whole Bible in other languages were considered a watershed in the advance of human intellectual history. Chronologically, we have: The Bible in French: published in 1528 by Jacques Lefevre D’etaples or Faber Stapulensis); The Bible in Spanish: published in Basel in 1569 by Casiodoro de Reina ("Biblia del Oso"), The Bible in English: King James version, published in 1611, The Bible in Dutch: the States Bible, which was ready in 1637."

This seems to imply the King James Version of 1611 as the first English translation, which it certainly wasn't, since there was already Tyndale, the Geneva Bible and the Bishop's Bible. Evercat (talk) 21:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

"Many problems"?

In the first paragraph, it states "But many problems have come up regarding him largely and arbitrarily editing the Holy Bible." The article goes into no detail on this, however, and the only problem listed is Luther adding the word "alone" in Romans 3:28 (this incidentally needs a citation). What are these "many problems", then? I'd either like to see examples of these, or to just delete the sentence. Lord Seth (talk) 16:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Sentence deleted. If the sentences is to be added back please provide examples and their citations. Schroederrt (talk) 16:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Major bias

The following text: "The whole Bible in other languages were [sic] considered a watershed in the advance of human intellectual history. Chronologically, we have — Bible in French: published in 1528 by Jacques Lefevre d’Étaples (or Faber Stapulensis); Bible in Spanish: published in Basel in 1569 by Casiodoro de Reina (Biblia del Oso); Bible in Czech: Bible of Kralice, printed between 1579–1593; Bible in English: King James version, published in 1611; Bible in Dutch: the States Bible, which was ready in 1637" represents significant denominational bias, as it only lists the first Protestant translations.

The first Bible published in French was 1487, the first in Spanish was 1478 - both of which were Catholic translations. Nor is there any mention of the 17 editions of the German Bible published prior to Luther's (the first of which was published in 1466). This is a glarring error, as he drew on the existing translations. 82.110.160.178 (talk) 12:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The main article also fails to mention translations into Czech from Latin, starting in 1360. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.202.155 (talk) 11:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

It struck me as an uncited, biased, non-NPOV and ungrammatical claim as well. And being that it wasn't the first time someone mentioned it, I removed it. oknazevad (talk) 03:37, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Note 3

In note 3, "all" appears. It should be "alone". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.202.155 (talk) 12:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Tags of December 2009

I tagged this article, because upon reading it, it read far more like a personal reflection of a Luther fan than a disinterested observation. It also can be quite redundant. And encyclopedia articles don't have essay-like conclusions. That I'll remove, but the rest needs a major trimming and neutralizing. oknazevad (talk) 04:10, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, POV? OK, the "nationalism" theory in the text seems a POV, because the words (nationalism used frequently in the text) are in general without historical dates, events etc. for evedents. Yes this would be a real POV. What would you read? e.g. Luther made a boring and senseless translation? Or he made a translation of the Bible, like a other people made it? ... The article is a normal text about Luthers Bible. It's like 95 percent of special books to the topic and the rest the 5 percent are Literature from sects (Sekten), olden days and so on. Ok, I would write it in another way ... but I suppose that your message on the site is not rigt. The delation of the passages you erased, I don't understand. --- Possible it would be the best, when somebody will use the German wikipedia Article to the topic, to place more facts on the article-site. On the other hand the article needs a better structure, so that it will be better to understand. with friendly greetings Sönke (from Germany) --Soenke Rahn (talk) 01:12, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

It reads like it is proselytizing for Lutheran converts through excess praise. It is not neutral.oknazevad (talk) 02:16, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Revised beginning of "Impact" section / added reference to other German Bible translations

This section began with a sentence referring to the Zürich Bible, stating that it preceded the Luther Bible. While this statement may be accurate, it seems out of place here, and it weakens the discussion in this section. I deleted this sentence and replaced it with a sentence referring to the Wikipedia article on German Bible translations. 24.189.121.114 (talk) 19:11, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

using Greek as a "revolutionary" step by Erasmus and Luther

Hello,
I just wonder why my addition has been removed so bluntly.
I know that my addition is not common knowledge in Netherland (I'm a dutchman), mainstream history is always behind professional history. About sourcing, I don't know if that goes for English literature, but it is most certainly sourced in Dutch (& Belgian Flemish) historical literature. I guess you don't read Dutch, but in the Dutch Luther-Wiki the things I've mentioned are being appreciated, so why shouldn't that be so in the English wiki.
You may call it contentious, but talking about this time means pointing out the strong contrasts there were. Also, Luther didn't come just out of the blue with his ideas about translating the bible into German/folklanguage. The things I've written are relevant context. In what is now all of northern Germany (Saxony in particular) and the Low Countries, the Hanseatic world, the Brethren of the Common LIfe were wide spread. They had more effect on christian opinion and believe than generally is known. By the "small" steps they made/took, f.i. by putting Greek in their curriculum they were a large contribution to the climate which made Erasmus and Luther possible. Luther took things further than Erasmus did and before him the Brethren of the Common Life did. The B.o.t.C.L. functioned within the Catholic church but not wholeheartedly, Erasmus was strongly opposed by fellow Catholic scholars (especially the ones from the university of Leuven (louvain)) but still stayed in the catholic church, and Luther took things so far that he was excommunicated. That's the point!

Vransiscus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.178.167.72 (talk) 12:43, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

There is no one "Official" Latin Text

I see the strange sentence has a "citation needed" at the end of it, but in fact it's misleading.

Though the Vulgate was commissioned by a Pope, that does not make it "the" official Latin translation; it is indeed very widely used, but there are earlier Latin translations recognized as authentic, and notably some earlier translations of the Psalms are still used liturgically, e.g. in the 1962 Missale Romanum. 70.52.76.13 (talk) 18:43, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Brucker and Teller Revision

may have a different name and different article, but should be mentioned here somewhere, since it was based on a project correcting Luther's version. — LlywelynII 01:58, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Amish (and Mennonite) use of the Luther Bible

"In the United States of America, the Luther Bible is still in use by the Amish, who are more fluent in German than English."

This is an unsourced and inaccurate statement.

"still in use by the Amish" -- true, but incomplete. Also used by the Old Order Mennonites, and possibly others.

"Amish... are more fluent in German than English." Not true. Amish and Old Order Mennonites can read, write, and fluently speak English (the language of their schooling). They fluently speak, but rarely if ever write, Pennsylvania Dutch (a/k/a Pennsylvania German) -- or (in the case of the "Swiss Amish", an Allemanic dialect of German) -- which is their mother tongue and home language. They can read, with greater or lesser understanding, the standard German of their Luther Bible, their hymnals, and their prayerbooks -- which is taught in their parochial schools, but not to an advanced level, and with essentially no concern for active use of the language for speaking or writing. Of the three languages, standard (Bible) German is the one of which their command is by far the weakest. In fact, although Bible readings during services are from the Luther Bible, they commonly own bilingual Bibles (Luther and King James) and may consult other English translations as an aid to understanding the German.

See, among many, many other reliable secondary sources, Mark L. Louden, Pennsylvania Dutch: the Story of an American Language (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins Univ. Press, 2016), chapter 6 and passim.

Gambaguru (talk) 22:46, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

There is now a 2017 Edition of the Luther Bible

I'm not good at editing wikipedia, but I thought people should be aware that a new version has been published in German, in line with the 500 anniversary of the protestant reformation. osrevad (talk) 16:21, 31 October 2017 (UTC)