Talk:Prophecy of the Popes

New information in an Italian article

Hi!

as I wrote in the Italian version of this page, a new peer-reviewed italian article shows that the Prophecy of the popes already circulated at papal court in 1587. Therefore, I suggest to cite this new source, and IMO we have to say that the theory of the 1590 forgery is false. With this discover, two mottos - Urban VII's and Gregory XIV's ones- could not have been written ex post.

The link of the article is: https://www.academia.edu/20929069/Profezia_e_alchimia_alla_corte_di_Gregorio_XIII_e_Sisto_V_un_carteggio_dallAccademia_Carrara_di_Bergamo_Aevum_89.3_2015_

Bye! Hallkall (talk) 17:59, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Interesting find. I've updated the article to include the new information. There's a bit more there that could be included; the author of the 1587 letter cites them in the context of proposing that "the dew of heaven" is favourable to the papal prospects of a Cardinal Claudio Albani.--Trystan (talk) 03:15, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Your corrections are great, really a high standard. I corrected only one little mistake about Italian geography - Bosco is in Piedmont, non in Lombardy. I only doubt about this sentence of the incipit: "Given the very accurate description of popes up to 1590 and lack of accuracy after that year, historians generally conclude that the alleged prophecies are a fabrication written shortly before they were published".

Two remarkes: - I would not say "accurate decription... up to 1590", because now we know that after 1587 the mottos are not accurate, because they are not be forged ex post. - "shortly before"? Wion's book is published in 1595, we know the prophecies existed in 1587. I'd change the adverb :D

I think it would be great to say something about the use of this prophecies in Albani's circle. But the cardinal to whom is linked "the dew of heaven" is not Claudio Albani, but Giovanni Girolamo Albani.

Sorry for my poor English! bye!Hallkall (talk) 01:44, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

I've tweaked it a little, but we are still in a position where the majority of sources treat motto 74 as one of the accurate ones. Comensoli Antonini makes a good case it isn't, and on closer inspection it does seem out of step with the first 73. We can give him more weight as a more recent source, but it would be good to get some additional sources supporting him.--Trystan (talk) 01:22, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

You're right, but there is a fact: the prophecies existed already in 1587, so the theory of 1590 forgery can not be true.

I would try to add th Albani's anedoct, if you not agree, cancel it! and please, check my English!Hallkall (talk) 14:08, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Improving the wikipedia article "Prophecy of the Popes"

Is there anyone else interested in improving the wikipedia article "Prophecy of the Popes" ? - Exodus2320 (talk) 15:29, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

In p[er]ſecutione. extrema S.R.E. ſedebit. - Translation

In p[er]ſecutione. extrema S.R.E. ſedebit. can mean "In the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church, there will sit." but also "In the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church he will sit." in Latin. Thus, one single Pope can be meant. --212.186.14.29 (talk) 07:07, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

English usage of an Imaginary noun.

The phrase "there will sit" represents an English usage of an imaginary noun. "It is raining" illustrates the same. It is my understanding that this usage of an imaginary noun does not exist in Latin. Therefore "sedebit" in this context can only mean "He will sit (reign, preside.)" Referencing the Vulgate we find "sedebit" as "he will sit (or reign)," but never as "there will sit." Jeffreyerwin (talk) 16:33, 4 October 2016 (UTC)jeffrey erwinJeffreyerwin (talk) 16:33, 4 October 2016 (UTC)10/4/2016

We can't override the translation provided in reliable sources based our own research; that would constitute WP:OR. Translations are often not literal, but reflect the best match to the general meaning, taking the context into account.--Trystan (talk) 16:19, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

This should help in your misunderstanding : the basis for "sit", "rule", and "reign", is best understood from the citation, "to serve God is to reign". (p. 118, Journal of a Soul, by John XXIII) - 100.14.81.196 (talk) 05:49, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Formal request as per Wikipedia's guidelines :

that the Revision as of 21:19, 5 August 2009 be implemented. - 100.14.81.196 (talk) 05:54, 7 November 2017 (UTC)