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Untitled

I've left a note at User talk:118.103.239.68 to say that I've tidied up what was recently added to this article, most of which seems to me to be more or less factual, but asking for the sources of the information to be added. Umar Zulfikar Khan (talk) 13:56, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Military Conflict

This article is quite lacking in the details of what was actually a military conflict between the Junagadh State Forces and the Republic of India (along with indian proxy insurgents). The Junagadh State Forces resisted the Indian invasion of their state, for example see here [[1]]XavierGreen (talk) 17:31, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Junagadh vs Kashmir

An IP has added [2] a claim on Kashmir here, which was recently reverted. In any case, the claim looked fishy. So I checked. There is no such statement in Rajmohan Gandhi's book. The p. 438 has the following quote: Pakistan attempted to set off Kashmir against Junagadh. When we raised the question of settlement in a democratic way, they (Pakistan) at once told us they would consider it if we applied that policy to Kashmir. Our reply was that we would agree to Kashmir if they agreed to Hyderabad. (The quote is from a speech of Patel at Junagadh, after its surrender.)

The equivalence was between Kashmir and Hyderabad, which Jinnah did not agree to. (A formal proposal was made by Mountbatten to Jinnah on 1 November 1947 in Lahore.) - Kautilya3 (talk) 19:43, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Invaded it

The lead states

India did not accept the accession, blockaded Junagadh and then invaded it.

and cites a book by Owen Bennett Jones, a journalist. I didn't find any supporting evidence in the book for the claim that India "invaded" Junagadh. Most other sources, e.g., Hodson, The Great Divide (1969) and Raghavan, War and Peace in Modern India (2010), do not support such a claim. I am tagging this as dubious. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:18, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hodson, H. V. (1969), The Great Divide: Britain, India, Pakistan, London: Hutchinson
Raghavan, Srinath (2010), War and Peace in Modern India, Palgrave Macmillan, pp. 101–, ISBN 978-1-137-00737-7

~~:Rejoinder: Your first edit: Ian Talbot an authority on South Asian history describes India’s political integration of princely states with reference to Junagadh this way~~

Accession was made more difficult in cases like Hyderabad, Junagadh, isolated on the tip of the Kathiawar peninsula, and Jammu and Kashmir, where the ruler came from a different religious community from the majority of his subjects. These states' eventual incorporation in India resulted in bitter recriminations. There was armed conflict between India and Pakistan in the case of Jammu and Kashmir. Mountbatten charmed, while Patel and V.P. Menon bullied rulers to accede

So how can you claim that the source does not support what I wrote? Bullying comes under force and rulers (in plural) shows it as wide Indian state practice. Sicilianbro2 (talk) 09:08, 7 July 2017 (UTC) CU blocked sock of User:Faizan[reply]

Rejoinder: Your second edit: dubious tag

WP:HISTRS sources describe India’s deed in Junagadh as an invasion.^[1]^[2] ^[3]^[4] ^[5]^[6] ^[7]^[8]. There is no dispute on this. Even Encyclopædia Britannica has termed India’s action in Junagadh as ‘invasion’.^[9] It is an encyclopediac fact. Sicilianbro2 (talk) 09:08, 7 July 2017 (UTC) CU blocked sock of User:Faizan[reply]

@Sicilianbro2: Which of these sources discuss the Junagadh affair in depth, rather than making passing mentions? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:00, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That is besides the point. The point is that Ian Talbot, Victoria Schofield and Brittannica encyclopedia are authoritative sources the former two who have studied such matters as partition (of which junagadh was part) in-depth. Scholarly consensus and dominant scholarly opinions is determined in from works of major authorities, major histories, tertiary textbooks and encyclopedias. Sicilianbro2 (talk) 12:12, 7 July 2017 (UTC) CU blocked sock of User:Faizan[reply]

My question has been dodged. Presumably because it has no decent answer.

Ian Talbot never talked about any invasion. The editor was just name-dropping.
Encyclopedia Britannica says "India sent in the army", which is not exactly invasion. (It sent in the army after it has been invited to take over the government, according to Hodson and Raghavan sources mentioned above.)
Victoria Schofield does say invasion, but provides no evidence. No such evidence is there because it never happened.

All this is make-believe hallucination. Either an invasion happened or it did not. It is question of fact, not a matter of "opinion" of scholars or whoever.

Anybody that wants to take responsibility for the sock edits better address this issue first. Or risk getting blocked themselves. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 02:00, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Crispin Bates; Senior Lecturer Modern South Asian History Centre for South Asian Studies Crispin Bates (16 September 2013). Subalterns and Raj: South Asia Since 1600. Routledge. pp. 213–. ISBN 978-1-134-51375-8. This occurred after a similar invasion by India of the princely state of Junagadh.
^ Francis Pike (28 February 2011). Empires at War: A Short History of Modern Asia Since World War II. I.B.Tauris. pp. 347–. ISBN 978-0-85773-029-9.
^ Victoria Schofield (30 May 2010). Kashmir in Conflict: India, Pakistan and the Unending War. I.B.Tauris. pp. 78–. ISBN 978-0-85773-078-7.
^ P. M. Holt; Peter Malcolm Holt; Ann K. S. Lambton (21 April 1977). The Cambridge History of Islam: Volume 2A, The Indian Sub-Continent, South-East Asia, Africa and the Muslim West. Cambridge University Press. pp. 115–. ISBN 978-0-521-29137-8. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
^ Robert F. Gorman (2001). Great Debates at the United Nations: An Encyclopedia of Fifty Key Issues 1945-2000. Greenwood Publishing Group. pp. 87–. ISBN 978-0-313-31386-8.
^ Andrew Roberts (16 December 2010). Eminent Churchillians. Orion. pp. 127–. ISBN 978-0-297-86527-8.
^ Philip Oldenburg (13 September 2010). India, Pakistan, and Democracy: Solving the Puzzle of Divergent Paths. Routledge. pp. 205–. ISBN 978-1-136-93929-7.
^ Jean Reeder Smith; Lacey Baldwin Smith (1980). Essentials of World History. Barron's Educational Series. pp. 306–. ISBN 978-0-8120-0637-7.
^ "India - The transfer of power and the birth of two countries | history - geography". Encyclopedia Britannica. Retrieved 2017-07-07. Junagadh, however, faced Pakistan on the Arabian Sea, and when its nawab followed Jinnah's lead in opting to join that Muslim nation, India's army moved in and took control of the territory. The nizam of Hyderabad was more cautious, hoping for independence for his vast domain in the heart of southern India, but India refused to give him much more than one year and sent troops into the state in September 1948. Both invasions met little, if any, resistance, and both states were swiftly integrated into India's union. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)

You have mixed up what the Sock said The reply of the sock was in two parts, you have mixed them up

The reply of the sock in rejoinder 1 involving an Talbot quote was not abt invasion. it was obviously a reply to this edit. where you cut that Talbot quote https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Annexation_of_Junagadh&diff=789339694&oldid=789273029

Clearly Brittanica says 'both invasions' about Junagadh and Hyderabad

And that 'invitation' by the government of junagadh was only for restoring law and order which happened because of India's blockade which India at the UNSC later denied having done and the disordely created by the provisional government which was formed by Menon and even India's ministry of law accepted that junagadh' accession to pakistan had still not been nullified when India took over administration (all this was from the Rakesh Ankit source)

Raghavan is an Indian government hired scholar

And here's an Indian paper which says raghavan is hired by the Indian government http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/editorials/the-fear-of-history-kargil-war-conflict-india-pakistan-china-sri-lanka-2937448/

@Vice regent: for comment

MBlaze Lightning cuts

@MBlaze Lightning: your recent edits claim that you are removing fake sources. This has spurred me to check the sources and I find either you are deliberately pushing POV or have not read what you call fake sources. Here are the quotes from the sources you have removed.

″The princely states of Hyderabad and Junagadh, which were located deep inside India, were annexed by force″

-Sumit Ganguly; Larry Diamond; Marc F. Plattner (13 August 2007). The State of India's Democracy. JHU Press. pp. 52–. ISBN 978-0-8018-8791-8.

″India used force to incorporate Hyderabad and Junagadh″

-Stephen P. Cohen (28 May 2013). Shooting for a Century: The India-Pakistan Conundrum. Brookings Institution Press. pp. 4–. ISBN 978-0-8157-2187-1.

So your claim of fake sources is being rejected and your cuts being reverted. KA$HMIR (talk) 11:00, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Where do they say that they "regard India's absorption of Junagadh as forceful"? —MBL ^Talk 11:56, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It says about force so clearly. I don't need to highlight it in bold. Quit WP:STONEWALLING. If you still refuse to see blue as blue you can go to DRN. KA$HMIR (talk) 17:09, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You clearly don't understand what the sources are saying; that Indian used its military force in Hyderabad and Junagadh, which is a well-known fact — nowhere do they say that they "regard India's absorption of Junagadh as forceful". This sort of thing is exactly what WP:OR prohibits. —MBL ^Talk 11:07, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OR prohibits material for which no reliable, published sources exist and which do not directly support the material. That India annexed Junagadh by force is in the cited sources and is a fact which you also say is true, and "regard India's absorption of Junagadh as forceful" means exactly that. Please stop fallacious reasoning, else I will have to take you to WP:ANI where such disruptiveness can result in a topic ban. KA$HMIR (talk) 12:16, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You're now engaging in WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Also, feel free to take me to WP:ANI, but before doing so, I'd recommend you read WP:BOOMERANG. —MBL ^Talk 18:15, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

MBlaze, calling reputable sources like Stephen P. Cohen "fake" cannot be taken lightly let alone seriously. I concur with the above advice, the onus rests on you to prove your claim whilst editing. Anything less than that is unsatisfactory and worth disregarding IMO. Mar4d (talk) 13:08, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, Mblaze is correct that those sources are only saying that India used "force" which means military force. Nothing like "absorption of Junagadh as forceful". Capitals00 (talk) 17:36, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mar4d, lay off the accusations. I was referring to WP:FAKE – the claim that "Scholars regard India's absorption of Junagadh as forceful" isn't supported by the sources which I removed. Furthermore, it was added not long ago by a disruptive sock,[3] so the WP:ONUS is on KA$HMIR (because he's the one putting the disputed content back in the article) to prove that sources explicitly supports the claims they're cited for. —MBL ^Talk 18:15, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You did not explain this edit, where you removed sources using the same misleading edit summary. Mar4d (talk) 09:45, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Lay off the source misrepresentation MBlaze Lightning. I have quoted the relevant bits of the sources above and they are clear for all to see that they support the words that mean India took Junagadh by force. @RegentsPark: so they can check whether the sources you are removing are supporting the content or not. Secondly the WP:ONUS is on you to explain the removal of verifiable longstanding content. And your explanation so far has been nonsensical to say the least. KA$HMIR (talk) 10:10, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(Since I've been pinged!) Since the argument is about the statement "Scholars regard India's absorption of Junagadh as forceful", the easiest way forward is if we can see the exact quote from the sources that say it was forceful. If "Some" needs to be added in front, then we'd need to see citations that explicitly say that it wasn't forceful and an exact quotation supporting that would be helpful. Meanwhile, please don't edit war. --regentspark (comment) 15:11, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[BatesBates2013-1] Crispin Bates; Senior Lecturer Modern South Asian History Centre for South Asian Studies Crispin Bates (16 September 2013). Subalterns and Raj: South Asia Since 1600. Routledge. pp. 213–. ISBN 978-1-134-51375-8. This occurred after a similar invasion by India of the princely state of Junagadh.

[Pike2011-2] Francis Pike (28 February 2011). Empires at War: A Short History of Modern Asia Since World War II. I.B.Tauris. pp. 347–. ISBN 978-0-85773-029-9.

[Schofield2010-3] Victoria Schofield (30 May 2010). Kashmir in Conflict: India, Pakistan and the Unending War. I.B.Tauris. pp. 78–. ISBN 978-0-85773-078-7.

[HoltHolt1977-4] P. M. Holt; Peter Malcolm Holt; Ann K. S. Lambton (21 April 1977). The Cambridge History of Islam: Volume 2A, The Indian Sub-Continent, South-East Asia, Africa and the Muslim West. Cambridge University Press. pp. 115–. ISBN 978-0-521-29137-8. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

[Gorman2001-5] Robert F. Gorman (2001). Great Debates at the United Nations: An Encyclopedia of Fifty Key Issues 1945-2000. Greenwood Publishing Group. pp. 87–. ISBN 978-0-313-31386-8.

[Roberts2010-6] Andrew Roberts (16 December 2010). Eminent Churchillians. Orion. pp. 127–. ISBN 978-0-297-86527-8.

[Oldenburg2010-7] Philip Oldenburg (13 September 2010). India, Pakistan, and Democracy: Solving the Puzzle of Divergent Paths. Routledge. pp. 205–. ISBN 978-1-136-93929-7.

[SmithSmith1980-8] Jean Reeder Smith; Lacey Baldwin Smith (1980). Essentials of World History. Barron's Educational Series. pp. 306–. ISBN 978-0-8120-0637-7.

[9] "India - The transfer of power and the birth of two countries | history - geography". Encyclopedia Britannica. Retrieved 2017-07-07. Junagadh, however, faced Pakistan on the Arabian Sea, and when its nawab followed Jinnah's lead in opting to join that Muslim nation, India's army moved in and took control of the territory. The nizam of Hyderabad was more cautious, hoping for independence for his vast domain in the heart of southern India, but India refused to give him much more than one year and sent troops into the state in September 1948. Both invasions met little, if any, resistance, and both states were swiftly integrated into India's union. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)

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 :::: You did not explain [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Annexation_of_Junagadh&type=revision&diff=814365211&oldid=814364512 this] edit, where you removed sources using the same misleading edit summary. '''[[User:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">Mar4d</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">talk</span>]]) 09:45, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
 :::::Lay off the source misrepresentation MBlaze Lightning. I have quoted the relevant bits of the sources above and they are clear for all to see that they support the words that mean India took Junagadh by force. {{ping|RegentsPark}} so they can check whether the sources you are removing are supporting the content or not.  Secondly the [[WP:ONUS]] is on you to explain the removal of verifiable longstanding content. And your explanation so far has been nonsensical to say the least. [[User:KA$HMIR|KA$HMIR]] ([[User talk:KA$HMIR|talk]]) 10:10, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
+*(Since I've been pinged!) Since the argument is about the statement "Scholars regard India's absorption of Junagadh as forceful",  the easiest way forward is if we can see the exact quote from the sources that say it was forceful. If "Some" needs to be added in front, then we'd need to see citations that explicitly say that it wasn't forceful and an exact quotation supporting that would be helpful. Meanwhile, please don't edit war. --[[User:RegentsPark|regentspark]] <small>([[User talk:RegentsPark|comment]])</small> 15:11, 10 December 2017 (UTC)