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This article was nominated for deletion on 20 December 2017. The result of the discussion was keep.

Improvements needed

This article could have improvements. Is should be a good encyclopedic article. Needed, with sources:

What is the best video available?
Did an Israeli Minister say Ahed should be in prison for life?
Did the soldier hit Ahed before? (5 secs)
Israeli journalist Ben Caspit proposed "in the case of the [Tamimi] girls, we should exact a price at some other opportunity, in the dark, without witnesses and cameras". Source, translation & add to article.
Current status of the nephew shot (released from hospital?), and the three detainees?

-DePiep (talk) 03:23, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of links that cover some of the above questions and a few more.[1][2][3] - Wayne (talk) 05:18, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Be wary of quoting Caspit out of context, that would be a BLP vio towards him. He clarified the intent of that blurb as a night time arrest, not in front of staged cameras, which is what was done here.Icewhiz (talk) 05:55, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also using opinion pieces is against WP:BLP--Shrike (talk) 08:38, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No. Quoting Ben Caspit from a column they published themselves is not BLP-vio. Invoking "context" may change the view (we could improve the quote for example), but Ben Caspit did not change or withdraw that quote. Full stop.

Also, the article aleady says: "... a matter of debate in Israeli society" so this is about opinions clearly.

I claim the Bes Caspit quote is acceptable, secondary notes (multiple sides) could be added. -DePiep (talk) 22:05, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Stone Throwing

As may be seen in this WaPo piece, the Tamimis were not only allegedlyinvolved in stone throwing during the riots, but also allegedly threw stones from their compund [4] On Friday, the army said, soldiers were in the village to contain a riot involving some 200 people, including the Tamimis. Some of the rioters, the army said in a statement, entered a nearby house and continued to throw rocks at troops. Then, it said, Tamimi and some women exited and started to “violently provoke” the soldiers..Icewhiz (talk) 15:35, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

An army statement, not an established fact then. -DePiep (talk) 15:42, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Its in the sources we may attribute it to the army then.Also, we can't say in wiki voice that cousin was shot by the IDF as it claim by the palestinians.--Shrike (talk) 17:09, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Whataboutery. What do you propose? -DePiep (talk) 21:47, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We probably should have an 'according to the Tamimi family..." and "according to the Israeli army.." paragraphs. DePiep - please refrain from inserting stmts by Bassem Tamimi without attribution in wiki's voice - NPOV.Icewhiz (talk) 19:01, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Factual timeline, not "viral" nor "video"

See [5] by Icewhiz (talk · contribs).

I object, because A. being "viral" is utterly irrelevant for our encyclopedia, and B. we are building the timeline of facts, and so the video itself is not relevant. (That is aftermath stuff). -DePiep (talk) 21:57, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing that is certain about this incident - is that there is a viral video. Furthermore, this is the main encyclopedic interest - this is what brought attention to the this incident. Just about every other detail regarding the incident - differs between the Tamimi family and Israeli authorities. So building a "timeline of facts" - is not something we will be able to do. The sole undisputed "fact" we have - is what is filmed in the actual video.Icewhiz (talk) 22:06, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"viral" is not encyclopedic. Popularity is not RS or V or fact. -DePiep (talk) 22:07, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Virality and popularity (actually - not the same) - are both quite quantifiable and measurable. However, we do not need to do such OR ourselves, as several RSes (if not most of them) have done so. e.g. [6] [7] [8]. Since we have enough RSes stating this - then we can say in Wikipedia's voice that this is a "viral video".Icewhiz (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Still does not make "viral" encyclopedic here. Neither do we state: "The story was published in papers with huge readership". Then, the video itself is not part of what happened, and so no need to mention in the header. Should be described in the aftermath. -DePiep (talk) 12:39, 31 December 2017 (Uthis is not what TC)

The videos in general of Tamimi, and this video in particular, are the only thing that makes her notable. RSes report of the video and on the fame garnered from the video. Her notability doesn't arise being a Palestinian protester - but being photographed and videographed as a such in widely distributed fashion.Icewhiz (talk) 13:31, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, she is notable for other reasons. Not because the video exist. So the "video" is not section header stuff (let alone, its "viral"-ness). Please remove the tag yourself. -DePiep (talk)

Several RSes, including WaPo, note she is notable for her videos and this one in particular - many placing the video in their article titles. For what "other" reasons is she notable? Most Palestinian activists/orotesters/rioters are generally not notable.Icewhiz (talk) 05:11, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Let's choose our words more carefully. She is not notable for the videos, but because of the videos. If it wasn't for the videos she would be just another Palestinian teenager arrested for disrespecting her masters and almost nobody would have heard about it. Zero^talk 06:22, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please mind WP:FORUM.We here to improve the article not to hear your political rants.--Shrike (talk) 06:30, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Where was Zero0000'a political rant? I would like to read it but all I found was well-informed advice on choosing our words more carefully.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 07:51, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV

@TheGracefulSlick: - this and this are a gross NPOV violation. If we prefix an army statement (sourced to WaPo) - with and "according to the Israeli army" - and the statement says riot - then we use riot. Ditto regarding changing "violently provoke" to "provoke". Paragraph2 - can not be in Wiki's voice - it is primarily sourced to a Newsweek opinion piece [9] by the subject's dad - Bassem al-Tamimi. The cousin being hit by a rubber bullet probably is not in doubt - the exact timeline, the relevance of that incident to this one (did they even know at the time?), is. Other details in the paragraph also need to be attributed.Icewhiz (talk) 22:03, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, not "gross". Please remove the tag yourself. -DePiep (talk) 22:06, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not an op-ed

This - [10] - is not an op-ed. It is news reporting on the video. It appears in the news section of ynet, and is not an opinion. Particularly the observation that only Palestinian women (and soldiers) appear in the video frame is a trivial one from watching the video - and is something that one would expect a written report (in a newspaper or Wikipedia) to expand on.Icewhiz (talk) 07:52, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note, other sources note this - e.g. BBC [11] A video taken on Friday shows a group of females shouting at and hitting two soldiers, who do not respond..Icewhiz (talk) 07:54, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think you can safely restore with two sources.--Shrike (talk) 08:01, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh please, read the damn text. Nobody is denying that the video showed only soldiers and a group of women. The claim, which is clearly a conjecture of the Ynet writers, who wrote "evidently" in confirmation of the fact that they weren't there and have no evidence, is that the video was intentionally framed to exclude men. It is a charge without a known basis except for those journalists' diatribe. Zero^talk 08:24, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Again its not opinion piece its a news reporting but you just don't like the facts.--Shrike (talk) 08:35, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Moreover, if you watch the video (posted here by some loony far-right group) it is obvious that the two soldiers are not monitoring anyone outside the frame. If there were men just out of sight, these soldiers must be real incompetents for not watching their movements carefully. Or, if there were men who the soldiers judged to be safe enough to not monitor, their omission from the video is innocuous. Just because some "news" story has some stupid conjectures in it doesn't mean we have to repeat them here. Zero^talk 08:48, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If we are ORing the video, there are actually two kids who get into the frame, and in addition there is someone filming this - so there are at least 3 more people behind the two young women and the mother. Possibly more. They are however all in the direction of the Camera - towards which the soldiers are facing most of the time anyway.Icewhiz (talk) 09:02, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Claim of settlement expansion

We can not state it as a fact for example WashPO says "accuse Israel of expropriating their lands in favor of the nearby Jewish settlement of Halamish." [12] it should be clear per WP:NPOV its the Palestinian claim--Shrike (talk) 09:49, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

At present it is "settlement expansion" without any charge of expropriation. Should we add a expropriation - we would have to say this is a claim. I'm not sure that there is any doubt, from any side, that settlements have been expanded (the question is more a matter of what they expanded on). I do think we should point out that this riot is "weekly thing" - dating back to at least 2010 (e.g. [13]) - and isn't about a particular event but is rather a recurring weekly event.Icewhiz (talk) 09:54, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Public perception

Regarding this edit I had to self-revert to avoid exceeding 1RR, I believe it is essential to the understanding of the divide in public perception. I thought this edit -- properly sourced -- described Tamimi without undue weight to one view or a lengthy quote essentially saying the exact same thing. Can we get consensus to re-include?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 10:40, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support - and I think this is lede worthy as it summarizes the public perception of her across different demographics while being quite strongly sourced to WaPo.Icewhiz (talk) 10:48, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Cite overkill

There are two instances in the article which have more than four sources to cite one sentence. Per the advice given by cite overkill, I believe, since the information is uncontroversial, we can live without a few and preferably focus on the three best sources in each respective cluster.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:06, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Birth date

"[T]he Israel Prison Service told JewishPress.com on Monday that their computer records show Tamimi’s birth date is January 31, 2001, which makes her 16 years and 11 months old."^[1]Oceanflynn (talk) 04:04, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Julian, Hana Levi (1 January 2018). "Ahed Tamimi, Mom Nariman Tamimi Indicted on Multiple Charges". The Jewish Press. Retrieved 6 January 2018.

Following that quote from The Jewish Press article there is a hyperlink to "Turkish PM eats breakfast with Palestinian girl who challenged Israeli troops" http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-pm-eats-breakfast-with-palestinian-girl-who-challenged-israeli-troops-37955 dated 30.12.12 based on "Palestine's "brave girl" Tamimi sits on world's agenda" http://aa.com.tr/en/turkey/palestines-brave-girl-tamimi-sits-on-worlds-agenda/290450 dated 30.12.12 which mentions 13-year-old Tamimi. Mcljlm (talk) 12:26, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple reports, on websites and in newspapers, reported her as being 13 years old in December 2012. http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-pm-eats-breakfast-with-palestinian-girl-who-challenged-israeli-troops-37955. http://blog.camera.org/archives/2012/12/more_accolades_for_young_pales.html http://vestnikkavkaza.net/articles/society/35545.html https://www.hidayatullah.com/berita/internasional/read/2013/01/03/4183/gadis-kecil-yang-meninju-tentara-zionis-sarapan-dengan-erdogan.html. It seems unanimous that she was 13 in December of 2012. At that point in time, there was nothing to be gained by anyone lying about her age. Conversely, there is now much to be gained, by the Tamimi family, and by the Palestinian Authority, by lying now to make her seem younger than she really is. By claiming that she is still a minor, they have sparked international outrage. Based on the evidence, any statements about her being 16 should be be stated as claims, not as facts. PA Math Prof (talk) 21:19, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Error

The first sentence of the last paragraph of the article states that the village has been occupied since only 2010. Of 19 (talk) 18:35, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. It was probably copy-pasted from somewhere - the text block it was in was covering events already covered in this article at much greater length. I trimmed it down to the documentary itself.Icewhiz (talk) 20:03, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Julian, Hana Levi (1 January 2018). "Ahed Tamimi, Mom Nariman Tamimi Indicted on Multiple Charges". The Jewish Press. Retrieved 6 January 2018.

[1]

@@ Line 81: / Line 81: @@
 Following that quote from The Jewish Press article there is a hyperlink to "Turkish PM eats breakfast with Palestinian girl who challenged Israeli troops" http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-pm-eats-breakfast-with-palestinian-girl-who-challenged-israeli-troops-37955 dated 30.12.12 based on "Palestine's "brave girl" Tamimi sits on world's agenda" http://aa.com.tr/en/turkey/palestines-brave-girl-tamimi-sits-on-worlds-agenda/290450 dated 30.12.12 which mentions 13-year-old Tamimi. [[User:Mcljlm|Mcljlm]] ([[User talk:Mcljlm|talk]]) 12:26, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
+Multiple reports, on websites and in newspapers, reported her as being 13 years old in December 2012. http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-pm-eats-breakfast-with-palestinian-girl-who-challenged-israeli-troops-37955. http://blog.camera.org/archives/2012/12/more_accolades_for_young_pales.html   http://vestnikkavkaza.net/articles/society/35545.html    https://www.hidayatullah.com/berita/internasional/read/2013/01/03/4183/gadis-kecil-yang-meninju-tentara-zionis-sarapan-dengan-erdogan.html. It seems unanimous that she was 13 in December of 2012. At that point in time, there was nothing to be gained by anyone lying about her age. Conversely, there is now much to be gained, by the Tamimi family, and by the Palestinian Authority, by lying '''now''' to make her seem younger than she really is. By claiming that she is still a minor, they have sparked international outrage. Based on the evidence, any statements about her being 16 should be be stated as '''claims''', not as facts. [[User:PA Math Prof|PA Math Prof]] ([[User talk:PA Math Prof|talk]]) 21:19, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 == Error ==