Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard

This is a messageboard for all administrators. Its chief purpose is to allow admins to ask each other for help and/or information, to communicate ideas, and for admin talk to happen.

However, any user of Wikipedia may post here. We're not an elite club, just normal editors with some additional technical means and responsibilities. Non-administrators are free to use it to talk to admins as a group. Please feel free to leave a message!

Related pages:

• Meta-discussions about the board (what it's for, how to publicize it, etc) at Wikipedia_talk:Administrator's_noticeboard

Tasks

WP:CP

Help in housekeeping on Wikipedia:Copyright problems is appreciated. -- Infrogmation 08:06, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So what do we do about ones like Brazil for Christ Pentecostal Church? - Ta bu shi da yu 09:27, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And Marcellin Champagnat from [1]. The article was rewritten and now the copyvio is in the edit history! - Ta bu shi da yu 09:32, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Also see Ödön von Horváth which needs to be removed (by a developer no less) from the edit history. [2] - Ta bu shi da yu 09:34, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Help determining dificult cases is much appreciated. Work on shoveling out the obvious cases when appropriate, however, is always needed to help keep the page at a managable size. -- Infrogmation 00:08, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

WP:PUI

From WP:CU: Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images needs some serious attention from an administrator. The page lists images that are in some way problematic and has apparently not been attended to since late September. Thuresson 15:10, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It has not been neglected so long, but does have a very large backlog of old entries. -- Infrogmation 00:08, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Double-blocking

What do you guys do to avoid blocking an already blocked IP? Do you check the log or what? I'd like to see a note on someone's user page if they're blocked, so I know I don't have to bother checking. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)]] 11:52, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

Good question. I usually check the IP block list, but that's a bit of a pain. A warning + confirmation that the IP/user is already blocked would be pretty helpful. - Ta bu shi da yu 12:39, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I leave a message on the IP's talk page so that other admins following up don't have to waste the time checking. Still, since not everyone does that, the only way to be sure is to check the IP block list before blocking. SWAdair | Talk 03:45, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps a new feature for MediaWiki could be an automatic symbol for blocked users. It could show up next to their name/IP in recent changes and have a sign on their user/talk pages that isn't part of the article (and thus not removable). violet/riga (t) 17:20, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I would like such a feature very much. It saves vandal hunters so much time. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)]] 09:17, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

IP addresses and sock puppets

CWS, Netoholic, Viriditas and TBSDY (myself) have all been in discussion about the whole sockpuppet to IP address issue. Personally, I've noticed suspicious edits on articles by anons where users have been blocked for 24 hours. Some sort of verification of the user's past IP addresses and matching them to the user might be helpful. Except that auto-blocking comes in useful here... - Ta bu shi da yu 23:04, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've been meaning to ask somebody this, and I figure you may know: is there any way for an admin to view the last active IP of a non-anon user? Many thanks. -- ClockworkSoul 23:04, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No, only a system administrator (Tim Starling comes to mind) can find that out. -- Netoholic @ 00:38, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC)

Ah, okay. Thanks. -- ClockworkSoul 22:17, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

CWS, why do you need to know? - Ta bu shi da yu 02:25, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In reading recent accusations of sockpupperty and watching recent vandals rotating usernames, it seemed to me that the ability to cross-reference IP addresses would render the former moot, and the latter somewhat easier to deal with. -- ClockworkSoul 22:17, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

tell me about it. I said the same to Viriditas! - Ta bu shi da yu 22:21, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Do you think its worth it for us to propose that administrators get the ability to see the source IP address of an edit, in addition to the author? I can't think of any major security issues, especially if it's only admin that can see them. -- ClockworkSoul 22:25, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Absolutely! That would solve many sock-puppet issues. - Ta bu shi da yu 22:26, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Would you like to write survey, or shall I? :) -- ClockworkSoul 22:30, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Unfortunately, such a proposal will not currently solve any sock-puppet issues if the users in question are editing from a secure browser (java disabled) and using an anon proxy. IIRC (and I could be mistaken), the only way to solve this problem is to ban open proxies. Many IRC servers have implemented this solution, but I believe there are ways around it, depending on the type of proxy. --Viriditas 22:56, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No, it wouldn't entirely eliminate sockpuppetry, but it would cut it down somewhat, and would make the lives of us vandal-hunters somewhat easier. It's also a bonus that the software could support such a change with a near-trivial amount of effort. I agree that your proposal, Viriditas, would go alot farther, but is also a grander undertaking. -- ClockworkSoul 23:15, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• If people with a free mail service need to contact an admin to sign up, it's likely they won't go through the effort causing us to lose valuable editors. I'd like to see some better vandal and trouble user logging, perhaps added to their user page so vandal hunters can easily check an IP's or user's past. Mandatory sign up isn't a problem, as long as we don't make verification neccesary. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)]] 14:44, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

Question: Why do you need to spy on users through the IP addresses? Contributions should be judged on what they are, not who wrote them. Sock puppets are annoying, yes, but there's nothing that can be done about them without massive changes to Wikipedia (for ex., requiring proof of identification before one could create an account, and blocking anon. users) that wouldn't be popular. I'm against the Big Brother type activity. If someone's contributions are so one-sided that he's an obvious sock puppet, then delete/demote them on POV grounds rather than surmised identity. EventHorizon 05:57, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Welllll'... normally I would have agreed with you on this one. But lately we've been blocking for violation of the 3RR. We've been seeing many similar edits on the articles we've blocked for, and the first thing a lot of admins thinks is that those edits come from blocked editors. So it would clear up a lot of issues if we could see the IP addresses used of editors. Mind you, from what I understand its a bit of a moot point because the autoblock automatically blocks those IP addresses anyway... Ta bu shi da yu 20:39, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Even though seeing an editors IP may seem trivial (considering developer people can do it no problem), I fear that the seeing a editors IP would be a power abused by admins. It is always nice to know something other people don't, eh? Considering that admins have been abusing blocking policy regarding 3RR (a policy DISASTER), not a good idea to give them more "responsibility". A temptation to much to resist. Sock puppets are not illegal per se. Abusing them to circumvent policy is.

The only way I could support admins seeing an editors IP would be if 3 lay (non-admin) editors, approved that course of action beforehand. As has been stated, admins have more responsibility but authority lies with the wikipedia community. I do not trust admins, sorry.

It does seem to be a moot point, considering the autoblock. Seeing a "rogue editors" IP, which can be changed easily, will solve very, very little. Wikipedia has not been damaged by admins inability to see an editors IP. Mrfixter 23:42, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

OK, fair enough these are your views. However, where have admins violated the 3RR? Also, why do you think we have to block because of repeated violations? Well, because the point is that people are reverting and not even bothering to discuss their changes. Then when we block because of it they get all pissed off. Well, I say tough. If they had been making edits in good faith they would have taken their comments to talk to work on. And they would have tried to gain consensus. Reverting in the manner they do is bullying, plain and simple. Why? Because they are trying to impose their own POV on people. Take for instance CheeseDreams. She reverted and lost at least three changes on Cultural and historical background of Jesus [3] and along with other editors has forced the protection of that page. Do you think that is fair? I don't. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:31, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Where have admins violated the 3RR blocking policy? HistoryBuffErs 4 reverts in 26 hours block, Alberunis 4 reverts in 24 hours 5 minutes, Nasrallahs block after two reverts in 24 hours, Sam Spades blocking. The 3RR policy should be followed to the letter by the admins. Now, without getting off topic, I would characterise the practices of these editors as very far outside of what I would consider civil behavior. But policy should be applied evenly and justly, which the admins have failed to do. I don't think admitting that is a radical stance to take.

3RR blocking policy has also meant more sockpuppet, anon ip reverts, and has slowed down revert wars but has not ended them. Was that the point of 3RR blocking policy? Like other things in wikipedia, the long-term solution lies within the wikipedia community, not in extending admins executive power.

The wikipedia community has not given admins discretion in enforcing 3RR. 3RR must be enforced, not the individual admins interpretation of 3RR, if an admin is serious about their duty. Mrfixter 17:29, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, but users who deliberately go out of their way to push their POV into an article may find themselves blocked. Those users need to learn how to play nice. Do you think I like blocking regular editors? - Ta bu shi da yu 14:39, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In practice admins do have discretion and are requred to exercise it fairly. They're not robots. HistoryBuffer and Alberuni's cases, if they're as you describe them, were abuse. Whether they stuck to the letter of the 3RR or not is irrelevant, if they intentionally tested its boundaries so blatantly. No editor needs to revert an article over a disagreement with another editor more than once in a blue moon, and we always have the option of modifying instead of reverting where it is appropriate to do so. The 3RR is so absurdly generous as to encourage revert warring, in my opinion. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 15:19, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Edits should be judged for what they are, not by who made them. But the concept of voting, and the 3RR, are undermined by sockpuppets. E.g., votes for deletion are a regular target of sockpuppet attacks. Take RFA into account, and they become a direct threat to the project. Recording IPs is not spying. Come on. Every website you visit has your IP, and they can do with it what they like. WP accounts are a gratuitous way to hide your IP, but I don't see any inherent users' right to this service. dab (ᛏ) 13:19, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A strategy for identifying and blocking vandals

Discretion and skill are needed in interpreting the IP numbers with a view to sock identification. I'm currently suffering intermittently from an IP block that was applied to my ISP's http proxy legitimately because of a vandal who is sharing the same proxy. There's nothing much we can do about that; it doesn't render editing impossible (but this is also true for the vandal).

One way to move forward may be to permit editing only by logged-in users. This would mean that a vandal can be blocked by username. Vandals attempt would get around the block by storing up usernames prior to vandalism and switching to an unblocked username when required. However this strategy could be defeated by recording the IP number under which each username is registered and then raising an auto listing (on some Special page) of users performing recent edits using the same IP number as banned users. This would provide a watchlist of candidates to watch for further vandalism.

It would also mean that crude and often ineffective bans on IP numbers, such as the one I'm suffering, would not be necessary. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 14:56, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Banning all anons is anti-wiki and frankly extremely infuriating to editors who don't want to register and subsequently log in all the time. But, I think that admins ought to have the developer power of viewing IPs. Unlike what Event Horizon said, this isn't a "big brother" tactic - Wikipedia is not a government or a public place, it's run by Jimmy Wales and the Foundation and so on, and the owners of websites can view the IPs of their visitors anyway. In Wikipedia's case, developers already have that power as well. The only difference here is giving that status to appointed admins. Andre (talk) 06:20, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. I have an account but I accept cookies from Wikipedia and have my preferences set to login automatically. I would accept a policy that might not appeal to wiki-purists if it meant that I did not occasionally find myself locked out of Wikipedia because of something somebody else did using the same web proxy I use. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 21:14, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Changing username

Could one or more admins have a look at Wikipedia:Changing username. As far as I can see, no request has been fulfilled since 14 October so there's quite a backlog. Thanks. jguk 13:26, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Unfortunately you need a developer to do that. Andre (talk) 19:45, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

Any ideas of how to get hold of one (or more)? jguk 20:13, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

m:Developer has a listing, but fair warning: they're overworked, and chorese like changing usernames are (except in unusual cases) low-priority compared to working on Mediawiki. Isomorphic 20:59, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Links to Wiktionary

Hi, all, there's a proposal (and a template) at Wikipedia:Soft redirect for handling pages that ought to be links to Wiktionary. I'd like to start using this, which looks good to me, but I'm not sure it's really official yet; can we get some more comment there so we can make this formal? (And my apologies if it already is, and I was just clueless - the page doesn't sound like it, and I hadn't heard about it until very recently.) Noel (talk) 17:45, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think this is a good policy for topics with no encyclopedic potential. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:00, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)

Three revert rule

I ask here because I think it may be the best way of getting a quick feel for the consensus on a recent change. Recently the three revert rule was made enforceable. Now the case of a simple revert is easy to identify and most edits which are termed "reverts" fall into this category: a diff between two different versions of the text of a page or section shows that they are identical, with all intermediate changes reverted.

More recently I have noticed users deleting the added text of other users selectively. This is slightly more difficult to recognise because a diff between two versions isn't identical. What shows up however is that if two versions are compared, added text in intermediate changes is selectively deleted. So for instance in one example the first user made a cosmetic edit, correcting the spelling of a single word, and a second user made a more substantial edit in which text was added. A third user then came along and performed an edit to delete all of the added text of the second user while retaining the cosmetic edit of the first, and also tweaked the heading of a section. The effect was to remove the added text of the second user.

This becomes a question because the third user had very shortly before performed two reverts on the same page, and the third edit could be seen as an attempt to evade the three revert rule.

I'd like to open the question up. Is this kind of edit covered by existing policy or practise? Does it qualify in this case as a third revert? --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 02:41, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

My opinion is that a revert which includes minor changes (such as spelling changes and capitalisation) is still a revert. The purpose of the 3RR is to prevent revert wars, and clearly spelling changes don't make much difference to most such wars. I think a warning might be a sufficient rebuff for a first offence.-gadfium (talk) 03:08, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I would agree with this comment. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:32, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Me too. The advantage of having people decide rather than machines is we can see through attempts to works the system. Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 09:01, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)]] 11:36, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

I thought it was pretty clear in the discussion at Wikipedia:Three revert rule enforcement that reverts that also make other changes should count for the purposes of the three-revert rule. For example, see my vote on that page. It shouldn't matter whether the other changes mixed in with a revert are major or minor, it's still a revert. However, I have just checked back at Wikipedia talk:Three revert rule enforcement#Spirit vs. letter of the 3RR and Wikipedia talk:Three revert rule enforcement#Mixing reverts and significant edit, and things no longer seem as clear as I had remembered. I would support a clarification to the 3RR saying that a revert mixed with other changes is still a revert. —AlanBarrett 17:39, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think a revert mixed with changes is still a revert; if someone wants to make unrelated changes, they can certainly do so in a separate edit. And indeed, if someone were to do the revert change, and then make other unrelated changes, they would definitely be blocked under the 3RR. Most admins I have seen have been interpreting revert+edits as a revert. Jayjg 20:33, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Missing Redirects project

For those who haven't run across this before, Nickj has created a really cool tool that runs across the database and collects information from piped links, using it to suggest additional redirects. (More about this project here, with prior discussion here.)

It has created a lengthy list of suggestions. To avoid making bogus links, the process is human-mediated. Nick has set it up so it only takes two clicks to create each one, so there's no work involved. You just sit and click if you think it's a good link. The lists are broken up into blocks of 5 suggestions, so that they are not overwhelming, and so that people can do as much or as little as they like. Now we need helpers. Where is the best place to publicize this project? Noel (talk) 13:33, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• To me the community portal or note on RC seems like good places to start. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)]] 13:56, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

Deleting RFCs

I noticed that several RFCs were listed in CAT:CSD, namely Wikipedia:Requests for comment/jguk and Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Theresa knott. While I understand that the RFC did not receive the required number of certifications within the time period, I cannot find the policy that states that these become speedy deletion candidates. In fact, I had a recent discussion with User:Ta bu shi da yu when several other users had a consensus that RFCs should almost never be deleted. I thought I'd bring this to the AN to see what everyone else thought. If there is a formal policy in place, let me know. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 18:55, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

There was a recent extensive discussion, at Wikipedia:Administrator's_noticeboard/RfC-VfD. Noel (talk) 19:06, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's not too difficult to find the policy - it's the first thing on each RfC page on a sysop/user (and also noted clearly on the main RfC page):) . It says:

"In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this sysop/user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute, not different disputes. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: XXX (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: XXX (UTC)." jguk 20:58, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It seems like this topic is currently in dispute at Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment#Deleting uncertified RFCs. However, because this is a delicate issue and I understand that the current policy is to delete these pages, I will go ahead and delete your RFC page; I will ask Theresa on her page if she wishes her RFC page to be deleted (she may not as it is currently part of the RFC/RFA discussion involving User:CheeseDreams). Obviously, any changes made to wikipedia policy would only affect RFCs in the future, and not the ones on CSD right now. Cheers, DropDeadGorgias (talk) 22:16, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

Abuse of powers in Clitoris

Admin Schneelocke locked a page in which he is involved in an edit war. Worse, he ignored an ongoing discussion in which both sides have worked hard to find a consensus, and have reached agreement on a temporary fix. Dr Zen 00:45, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. The power of the clitoris. Indeed. - 203.35.154.254 02:05, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Pfui. I actually read the whole of Talk:Clitoris, and a few related pages besides, and my eyes were fairly well glazed over by the end. Frankly, I don't think it makes much difference that Schneelocke may have had some modest prior contact with the page - any admin who was brought in de novo would almost certainly have taken one look at that tome and protected the whole lot anyway, while a) they figured out what the devil was going on, b) the dust settled, and c) people chilled out and became a little less fixated on this.

And I'm not sure I agree with the assessment of "both sides .. have reached agreement" because clearly some people didn't agree, hence the revert war. I think a more accurate assessment might (I want to qualify this because of the afore-mentioned glazing-over of the eyes - I might have missed some things) that "some people on size A had changed their minds and agreed to a compromise with people on side B, but others on side A had not". Absent a poll, it's hard to say what the count is of A-switchers, A-stayers, and B's. Noel (talk) 04:29, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well I am involved in the discussion, so you'll have to bear in mind that my viewpoint is not that of an outsider. As far as I'm aware Schneelocke has had no involvement with the page in question except as an administrator. I could be wrong, but I did search the talk and page histories pretty hard when this accusation--which if true I would take seriously--was raised. Other administrators are also alleged to have been involved improperly, but last time I looked the accusers were being extremely evasive about who exactly did something wrong. Frankly after making an honest attempt to reach an agreement with the minority who object to the picture, I am wondering if my actions were wise. By trying to broker an agreement in which the "objectionable" picture was replaced by a link for a few days, I seem to have provoked a revert war between admins and the minority users, which ended once again in the protection of the page. I remain optimistic, though. I'm that kind of guy. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 04:47, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Asksql

does anybody know what happened to Special:Asksql? There used to be a db query form, but now there is "No such special page"... dab (ᛏ) 08:34, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• I think it was temporarily locked to speed up the database, but I might be wrong. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)]] 08:55, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)
  • I could be wrong since I never used it anyway, but I think it's been "temporarilly" locked for a very long time. I wouldn't hold your breath. Isomorphic 21:05, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• It's unlikely to ever come back. One poorly written query could bring the entire site to its knees. -- Cyrius|✎ 01:44, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • It's gone indefinitely, not temporarily. The problem I have with it is not performance (we can always run it on a small slave server) but rather the fact that you need thousands of GRANT statements to set up the appropriate permissions. -- Tim Starling 10:16, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)

pity. although it was quite esoteric anyway. I suppose the permission commands could be generated by a perlscript? and if I am correct, there is a 30s timeout on queries, so that the system would not go down even from the stupidest commands? but it's ok, I have hardly ever used it myself, if was nice to have, and not in any way essential. dab (ᛏ) 10:32, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whiter than white?

If an active arbitrator admitted that they are a right wing POV warrier who has, in real life, even acted in such a way as to have been suspended from practicing law, are they fit to continue in their post and meet out judgements on others.

(This unsigned comment was left by User:CheeseDreams. [[User:Rdsmith4|User:Rdsmith4/sig]] 01:46, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC))

• Do you have someone in mind or is this a hypothetical?

I have someone in mind

• Do you know how to spell warrior or mete?
• I could go on with my questions, but since I gather you are mainly just trolling, I'll stop there. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:45, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)

2 isn't very many questions. I'm not convinced you could go on. CheeseDreams 18:52, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Dear CheeseDreams, your survey did not seem to be well designed, so I have refactored it. By the way, I'm an atheist and I consistently score extreme left, extreme libertarian on the Political compass site. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 02:07, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The survey was deleted for being an ad hominem attack on a Wikipedian. Mackensen (talk) 02:18, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ad hominem attacks require them to be irrelevant to the nature of discussion.

However, this is a very pertinant question. If Sam Spade is a bad candidate for becoming an arbitrator precisely because he is a right wing POV warrior, then why should a current arbitrator be permitted to arbitrate if they have the same guilt?

CheeseDreams 18:52, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The reason a current arbitrator should be permitted to arbitrate is that he or she was duly elected. End of story. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:13, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)

A person's political opinions, past (or present) legal/professional troubles and occupation... these things should not be factors in determining aribtratorship. An arbitrator needs to be able to interpret and enforce community consensus -- it does not matter if he is liberal or conservative, or a disgraced lawyer or Santa Clause himself, nor even if he manages to adhere to basic human decency. If the arbitrator is acting outside the bounds of aribtratorship, file a RfC or whatever. If not, stay out of his personal affairs and get on with your life. Tuf-Kat 01:01, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)

Absolutely. I could not agree with you more. I'd hate it if someone did this to me. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:09, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

One could argue that a lack of good judgement in non-Wikipedia matters is likely to translate into a lack of good judgement with regard to Wikipedia. I'm commenting on the argument itself, not the particulars of this incident. -- Cyrius|✎ 01:21, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

One could also argue that lack of good behaviour on Wikipedia (the sort that lands you in front to the AC) is likely to mean your the sort of person to try anything to stop the AC ruling against you, including trying to undermine the arbitrators themselves. If an arbitrator is unfit to arbitrate, this should be decided by the community at election times and by Jimbo and the board at other times. It should not be a matter for those who are up before the AC for their own bad conduct. Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 08:23, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Why shouldn't it be decided outside of election times? If information comes to light that wasn't available at election times, then surely it is important to discuss. E.g. profumo affair CheeseDreams 15:59, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hear, hear. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:53, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)

True as well. As I said, I was attacking Tuf-Kat's argument, which seemed to say that there's nothing an arbitrator could ever do outside Wikipedia that would cause us to question his judgement inside Wikipedia. -- Cyrius|✎ 17:35, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Exactly. This witchhunt/smear campaign is another example of completely inappropriate behaviour. Jayjg 18:25, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It isn't a smear campaign. It is evidence of an arbitrator doind something outside (and inside) wikipedia that causes the question of his judgement. CheeseDreams 15:59, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is probably irrelevant, but am I the only one who thought this was related in someway to Fred Bauder (FrBaArbQuality)? Johnleemk | Talk 11:20, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Why do people always call me right wing on here? And arn't I a NPOV warrior, rather than the reverse? Maybe these questions answer each other ;) [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] Spade wishes you a merry Christmas! 11:45, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't think anybody did (except CD of course). The discussion above is more academic, viz., would it even matter. Although I certainly expect you would show up in a corner of the political compass, and probably one opposite to my quadrant :) dab (ᛏ) 12:48, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Dead center, thank you very much. All the better to NPOV you with, my dear :D [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] Spade wishes you a merry Christmas! 17:53, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Undelete help

I tried to undelete AMOK! South Africa but now I can't get to the page history. Can someone please advise on the best course of action? - Ta bu shi da yu 08:41, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It seems to be there now. Page history is:

    * (cur) (last)  08:45, 19 Dec 2004 Ta bu shi da yu
    * (cur) (last) 08:44, 19 Dec 2004 Ta bu shi da yu (blanking copyvio)
    * (cur) (last) 09:02, 5 Dec 2004 Vague Rant m (Update link.)
    * (cur) (last) 01:47, 5 Dec 2004 Vague Rant (Copyvio.)
    * (cur) (last) 02:18, 29 Nov 2004 168.209.97.34 (Weblinks)
    * (cur) (last) 02:17, 29 Nov 2004 168.209.97.34 (AMOK! South Africa)
    * (cur) (last) 16:08, 27 Nov 2004 Mudthang m (Overview)
    * (cur) (last) 15:53, 27 Nov 2004 Mudthang m (Created 27 Nov 2004 by mudthang)

HTH. -- ALoan (Talk) 08:53, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Undeletes sometimes take some time before they show up. Cool Hand Luke 10:25, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

FWIW, I discovered soon after that if I did an edit then it all would come back :) Seems to fix things. - Ta bu shi da yu 14:33, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Another possibility that comes to mind is that your browser had a cached version of the history page from before the undelete and it was showing you that rather than retrieving the updated version. I've had that happen to me while doing deletion-related stuff before, and it freaked me out because I thought I'd irretrievably lost the Cassini-Huygens probe article while trying to move it. On many browsers holding down the shift key (or control key Pedant) while clicking the page reload button will bypass the cache, that could fix things if you run into this problem again. Bryan 19:18, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Nope, thanks for the advise but Wikipedia definitely brought up a "history not found in database" error. - Ta bu shi da yu 19:53, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

List subpages

Hi, can anyone tell me how to list the sub-pages of a given page (i.e. a command or page which, once given/looked at, provides a list). I've looked in Wikipedia:Subpages and Meta:Link#Subpage_feature, but neither says anything of how to do this. Sub-pages always include a link to the parent - is there anything analagous in the other direction? Thanks in advance for the answer (if any :-). Noel (talk) 18:23, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You could bring up "what links here" and them do a search within that... -- Jmabel | Talk 00:14, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)

Nope. Those links back to the parent don't get included in "what links here". Noel (talk) 00:42, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

One method is to do a Wikipedia search for the page; see, e.g.: this search; that brings up some of the subpages for my User pages under "Article title matches". — Matt Crypto 00:53, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If, as Matt's specific example might suggest, it's a matter of finding your subpage that you lost track of, and if you've always kept Watch this page checked since starting to create them, the complete list'll appear at yourM watchlist-maintenance page, neatly grouped together under the Us of the alphabet. The red links do not reflect deletions, but rather User talk: (sub-)pages that lack corrsponding User: (sub-)pages -- typically your talk archives. --Jerzy(t) 21:28, 2004 Dec 20 (UTC)