Talk:Transhumanism

Unabomber

The Unabomber's manifesto was pretty clear - he didn't advance any doctrine, just opposed one. And most people consider Good Old Ted a "terrorist" not an ordinary "murderer".

It's most neutral to just say he was "convicted of" what he was convicted of, and to call him The Unabomber. The paragraph as it stands now is quite neutral and elegant I think. Thanks.

Joy, de Garis, gnosticism, soul, spiritualist

The arguments of Joy and De Garis are interesting - the analysis parallels but the solution does not. De Garis seems to think a billion dead humans in a struggle to achieve transhuman status for some post-humans is "worth it"... a good demonstration of the completely insane amoral stances of the idiots who preach this crap.

Personally, I think the first thing AI will do is train Unabombers to kill AI researchers... that the entire program is suicidal by definition, body-hating, and a great way to say "humans suck, extinct us please". No need for Unabombers to volunteer, they'll be zombied into the job by AI-generated-advertising-believing television junkies and video gamers. - 24

I'm not at all familiar with transhumanism, but the above description has some interesting parallels with some forms of early gnosticism, which also believed that our human bodies were evil, but our souls were good, or would be if they could ever get rid of their pesky bodies. The search for a way to transfer a human mind or consciousness into a machine or computer seems very similar on the surface, just without the 'mysticism' of a spiritual afterlife for the soul. Wesley 21:58 Sep 23, 2002 (UTC)

A transhumanist, though, would see nothing inherently "pure" about the present state of the "soul" either; after uploading oneself into a computer-mind, the first thing a transhuman would do is continue upgrading--more memory, faster processing, more senses, more connections with other uploads. And perhaps even mechanical "body" parts to help exercise one's will in the rest of the universe. Indeed, it is an explicit goal of many to transform as much of the universe's matter as possible into computronium on which to run ourselves. --LDC

Oh, I don't know about that. I consider myself transhumanist. I'm also a spiritualist. I don't think any arrangement of data, or any special algorithm, will mystically result in awareness. And yes, I do "experience" "awareness". The transhumanism comes in at the part where I think we're going to make new bodies and brains for ourselves, regardless of whether mechanical or organic. At any rate: I'm getting ready to slap on a big "Not NPOV" on the page... There's nothing in Transhumanism that says you can't be a spiritualist. If the transhumanists reject the possibility, then there will be schizm. We'll have to have something called "Spiritualist Transhumanism," or something like that. -- Lion Kimbro

Hugo de Garis is not a transhumanist. The fact that he advocates the deliberate creation of AI that will wipe out the human race should be a dead giveaway (note the word "human" in "transhumanist"). As far as non-moral opinions go, de Garis's views are similar to that of many transhumanists, yes, but he shares none of the moral philosophy.

Many of the statements regarding de Garis's opinions previously appearing in the criticisms section here are simply wrong. Everything that I have read of his regarding his "gigadeath war" indicates that it is a battle between those supporting the creation of superintelligent "artilects" (artificial intellects; he loves neologisms) and those opposed to such creation. His comments should not be generalized to the transhumanist movement as a whole. Googling his personal website, I find virtually no mention of transhumanism.

If there are no objections, I'm going to remove de Garis from this section, as he is neither a transhumanist nor a vocal critic of the transhumanist movement. His opinions regarding the future of AI are somewhat relevant to transhumanism (although more so to the Singularity) and can be included elsewhere in the article perhaps. If anyone can provide quotations where he actually claims to be a transhumanist, or specifically criticises tranhumanism, then by all means insert them in the article, but I don't think such things exist. -- Schaefer 08:55, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

deleted material

[It] is typical of transhumanists that they define victory as inevitable, much as Marxists did. This, as the anti-futurist Max Dublin noted, seems to provide a certain fanaticism and nihilism useful in advancing such causes. -- Cut for NPOV violation

cyborg

Cyborg links to here in a ""see "" Is Cybrog an intermediary stage of evolution that should be mentioned in this article. Two16 09:56 Jan 12, 2003 (UTC)

split long article

Might this longish entry be better presented as a series of pages? JasonS 03:34 Jan 13, 2003 (UTC)

critics section needs expansion

Can anyone expand the section on the critics of "transhumanism"? This article does seem a bit lopsided. Even the section on critics seems a bit skewed, almost implying that the main people who oppose "transhumanism" are Luddites, granola/hippie types, or irrational extremists that would use violence to "save" their humanity. I'm sure there's alot of moderate, intelligent people who have problems with the directions technology is taking.

Critics of transhumanism see a very Borg-like outcome of evil and oppression. They belive the vast majority of humanity will be worse-off due to the selfish nature of those who have the means to immortality, and the high cost (at least initially) of saving your life.207.112.31.5 04:10, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I think it's fair to mention that some people would take a critical stance with respect to transhumanism not on a "Borg-like outcome" but by taking the stance that both the "utopian" and "distopian" perspectives posit a future that may not be implementable. A skeptical standpoint to transhumanism would suggest that current research into the physical limits of computation will radically slow progress towards these imagined futures in the next several decades. A perspective from a lit-crit point of view might take transhumanism as general template of mythology through technological speculation, leading to a perspective on transhumanism as more of a literary, speculatively philosophical, and artistic movement rather than as a genuine body of implementers of the future. - Caoch93 23:30, August 08 2004 (EST)

Cosmotheism

That F-head "David Gerard" is editing and deleting relevant links again!

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Transhumanism&action=history

He obviously does not know anything about subjects and topics that he reverts, whatsoever!

euvolution.com

For example, do a search on Google on "Prometheism" and you will see that links are made to cosmotheism and to many other "Transhumanist" websites!

Best regards,

Paul Vogel

Paul, just because you're interested in a topic doesn't mean it must be linkable to cosmotheism. - David Gerard 21:38, Mar 26, 2004 (UTC)

David, just because you don't like an idea or concept, ie. Cosmotheism or Prometheism, doesn't mean that it isn't actually relevant to the topic at hand, in this case "Trans-Humanism".

Seriously. If it is really relevant, add a link to "See also" with a description of why the two are related. Don't just add seemingly irrelevant links with no explanation. - Omegatron 21:55, Mar 26, 2004 (UTC)

Seriously, it is quite self-evident why they are related, if either one of you had actually ever bothered to actually understand the links above and the actual topics that are actually involved with "Trans-Humanism", in the first place! LOL! :D

Transhumanist spirituality and cosmotheism dispute

Until a survey on the religious beliefs of transhumanists is held, the mention of religions besides Buddhism in the article will reflect nothing more than personal preferences and therefore should not be included. Loremaster 21:50, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hardly. Buddhism originally stems from Hinduism which also stems from the earlier Vedas, which is just ancient Aryan cosmotheism. 66.2.156.69

This is a gross and biased oversimplication but even if it was accurate the issue is the number of transhumanists who knowingly and openly consider themselves "cosmotheists." If the number is insignificant, it is not worth mentioning in this article. Since the majority of transhumanists are atheists, agnostics and/or secular humanists, the pratice of religion by some transhumanists is not of great importance. To avoid a dispute, I am editing out the specific names of religions in this article until a survey on the religious beliefs of transhumanists is held. Loremaster 04:54, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I've removed "Cosmotheism" from the Related Articles section of the article to avoid a dispute and will keep doing so along as necessary. Loremaster 22:33, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Cosmotheism... this is a form of transhumanism, by all basic definitions. why exactly are you removing it? Sam Spade 04:34, 4 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

They are only always removing it, Sam, and for all of the same reasons that I have so often repeated as to be redundant.-PV

It really isn't though and your trolling on behalf of Vogel, I suggest waiting for the AC's ruling before continuing on this course. Stop trying to promote this agenda-the eugenics link more than suffices. Cosmotheism as a religion or philosophy is not relevant to transhumanism in any real way despite your created misinterpretation of it.GrazingshipIV 05:16, May 4, 2004 (UTC)

"Social-Marxist" Political correctness and its dogmatism and AGENDA and this POV CENSORSHIP by this ilk has NOTHING to do with Transhumanism but Cosmotheism most certainly does have very much to do with it, and also cosmotheism.net has many links to many Transhumanist websites! prometheism.net for one example and transtopia.org for just another example -PV

To Vogel and Spade: This dispute has nothing to do with "social-marxist" political correctness, dogmatism, an agenda or POV censorship. The issue is one of accuracy. Strictly speaking, cosmotheism is a form of classical pantheism that identifies God with the cosmos, that is, with the universe as a unified whole. Transhumanism is a form of modern humanism that affirms the possibility and desirability of fundamentally improving the human condition through applied reason, especially by developing and making widely available technologies to eliminate aging and to greatly enhance human intellectual, physical, and psychological capacities. According to these basic definitions that we all accept, the two concepts are obviously NOT related. The fact that a few fringe theorists have decided to synthesize cosmotheism and transhumanism into one new ideology (prometheism? transtopianism?) due to some vague similarities or radical reinterpretation and that these people have websites which display both cosmotheist and transhumanist essays and links does NOT prove that cosmotheism and transhumanism are related except in their imagination. Period. As I said before, I have removed the mention of "cosmotheism" from the Article and will keep doing so every single day if necessary... unless a moderator orders me otherwise. Loremaster 18:59, 4 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Marxism and nihilism in critics section

JRR Trollkien, unless you provide some clarification, I have and will continue to edit out the mention of "Marxists" and "nihilism" in the Critics and Opponents of Transhumanism section of the article because they render the statements, which they were part of, biased and inaccurate. Loremaster 23:43, 26 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

EuroTom has provided the proper clarification surrounding this issue with his edits. Loremaster 01:18, 29 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Narrow concept of transhumanism

This article (especially the intro) is disappointing even if it does reflect the concept of transhumanism held by most of those who identify themselves as transhumanists. A narrow concept of transhumanism dominates the article. As a Mormon, I would consider myself a sort of transhumanist given Mormonism's doctrine of deification. That sort of religious-transhumanism (transcending the human state, mortality and its frailities and becoming like God through resurrection and exaltation) is much different than the narrow sort of transhumanism described in this article with its predeliction for cyborg type progress as if a CPU could ever be more advanced than the brain, etc. It is ironic that most transhumanists would likely accept the idea that eventually mankind's technological ability will allow them to be at least like demi-gods, but seem to overlook the possibility that such a society already exists in the cosmos and would seem as gods to our society. Secular transhumanists embrace the transhumanist ideas in movies like Powder or Godsend, but overlook the possibility that mankind's possibilities to progress may be not merely or only an evolutionary gift. In a sense, this is the transhumanism that Mormonism recognizes: that there is already a godly society, that we are their offspring and we are to progress beyond our mortal, human state to become like them. —B|Talk 00:49, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

B, perhaps you could write about "Mormon transhumanism" in the Christian transhumanism article. Loremaster 01:39, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed the link in the article. I take back my comments above then with the proviso that perhaps Christian transhumanism deserves a little more attention in the article than a mere link. —B|Talk 01:56, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Might want to fit in a quick paragraph with a "Main article: " link underneath it, as is done in the country articles; see United States, for example. grendel|khan 21:47, 2004 Aug 8 (UTC)

Cosmotheism dispute revisited

Why does the link to cosmotheism keep getting deleted? Just because that article had a banned user associated w it doesn't make it any less relevent. Sam [Spade] 20:56, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Spade, I don't mean to be offensive but stop playing dumb! The link keeps getting removed not because the article was associated to a banned user, who may or may not be a good acquaintance or even friend of yours. As I have said before, the issue is one of accuracy. Strictly speaking, cosmotheism is a form of classical pantheism that identifies God with the cosmos, that is, with the universe as a unified whole. Transhumanism is a form of modern humanism that affirms the possibility and desirability of fundamentally improving the human condition through applied reason, especially by developing and making widely available technologies to eliminate aging and to greatly enhance human intellectual, physical, and psychological capacities. According to these basic definitions that we all accept, the two concepts are obviously NOT related and of no relevance to each other. Bottom line: I am the one who keeps removing the mention of "cosmotheism" from the Article and will keep doing so every single day if necessary. Loremaster 23:19, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Your attitude in this statement is generally is anti-wiki, and specifically you make a Faulty generalization, assuming that the classic definition of Cosmotheism is the one we are discussing, when in truth the relevant variety is William L. Pierce's Cosmotheism. Sam [Spade] 23:40, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have explained myself in your talk page so I won't bother repeating myself. However, while not related to secular transhumanism, I will grant you that William L. Pierce's cosmotheism is arguably related to Christian transhumanism and eugenics so I have moved your link to those pages. I hope this finally ends this dispute once and for all. Loremaster 18:17, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Cosmotheism has nothing to do w Christianity. Have you researched this? I have noticed a positive correlation between arrogance and ignorance in my life. Sam [Spade] 03:44, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I never said that cosmotheism has something to do with Christianity. However, the similarities between cosmotheism and Christian Transhumanism are obvious since both are millinarian religions. As I said many months ago, I have researched this topic and I have visited those dubious websites linked to below. This is why I am again removing any reference to Cosmotheism from the Transhumanism article for reasons I have already explained in the past and for the following one as well: Cosmotheism, transtopianism and prometheism hold views that are incompatible with transhumanism. Lastly, I am disappointed that you would resort to a personal attack, however underhanded it may be, after you lectured me about anti-wiki behavior... Loremaster 00:34, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Loremaster you are wrong, biased, unfair and have a personal agenda which goes against the very principles of wikipedia and neutrality. Let me break some reality to you. The man who invented the word transhuman - Julian Huxley, was an avid, open, public and published supporter of state sponsored coercive eugenics, selective breeding communities. So when people try to hijack his term and say it means something else, it is not only ignorance, arrogance and foolishness - its an outright LIE. If anything the WTA is NOT a transhuman organization because they are against eugenics. If Julian Huxley where alive today, he would wonder why these groups hijacked his terms and made it into something it is not. Transhumanism includes eugenics, to say otherwise is a LIE. This doesnt mean transhumanism is only eugenics, it is saying that eugenics is a subset or part of the transhuman philosophy, which is attaining higher states of physical and mental being. Eugenics might be a slow method, but none the less it is still valid. To say other wise is patently false and a lie. Stop trying to hijack transhumanism for your own agenda. NO one, absolutely no one has the final say on what transhumanism is or is not and all points of view regarding transhumanism. the WTA does not now or will ever have the final say on what transhumanism is and the web sites prometheism, cosmotheism and transtopia.org are relevant, valid and important web sites that belong perminently listed in transhumanism. In fact I dare say that transtopianism (transopia) is a much more highly evolved and thoughtout meme set than WTA, but that is just my personal opin. Prometheism, Cosmotheism and Transtopianism are all clearly transhuman philosophies and I would appreciate it if you kept your personal biases OUT of ruining wikipedias neutrality, fairness and POV support.

Dnagod 17:59, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This issue of whether or not prometheism, cosmotheism and transtopianism are legitimate forms of transhumanism has already been debated ad nauseum and a consensual conclusion was reach to end this dispute a long time ago. Therefore, I will not repeat myself except to say that this article is about apolitcial and secular transhumanism. You are more than welcomed to create new articles for these fringe philosophies and groups. Loremaster 21:16, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Secular Humanism mention in intro

I've changed the intro from:

The vast majority of this article relates exclusively to modern, secular humanist transhumanism.

to

The vast majority of this article relates exclusively to modern, secular transhumanism.

Secular transhumanists do not necessarily share humanist doctrine outside of rejecting supernaturalism; in particular, secular humanism emphasizes democracy while transhumanists of a libertarian bent may reject it.

- Korpios 19:10, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You are right of course, its a subtlety I missed due to the similarity of the two terms, and transhumanism containing humanism. Would you mind weighing in on the attempt to exclude the racialist/eugenics perspective? I guarantee that anyone who impartially reviews those links (just above) will realize that however disturbing or fringe, Cosmotheism obviously is a form of transhumanism. In my experience it’s unwise to exclude alternate viewpoints (even disturbing ones), something about NPOV... Sam [Spade] 01:09, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

From transhumanism.org

World Transhumanist Association Statement on Racialism

Any and all doctrines of racial or ethnic supremacy/inferiority are incompatible with the fundamental tolerance and humanist roots of transhumanism. Organizations advocating such doctrines or beliefs are not transhumanist, and are unwelcome as affiliates of the WTA.

Loremaster 15:06, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The fact that you think World Transhumanist Association has the final say on this subject is a large part of why the article is currently disputed. NPOV means the inclusion of a variety of viewpoints, not only one. Sam [Spade] 19:48, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I never said and do not think the WTA has a final say. I was simply presenting the viewpoint of one of the leading transhumanist organizations. I can provide more from every single one that exists. But regardless of what all these legitimate groups think, the fact is that "eugenical comostheism" is incompatible with the fundamental tolerance and humanist roots of transhumanism. Loremaster 20:32, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You bias is so profound that you are missing the obvious: tolerance and humanism are the roots of the WTA, and other forms of transhumanism which you yourself prefer. Eugenics, Racial hygiene, and Nazi theology are the roots of the Transhumanists of transtopia.org. Your attempt to exclude their POV is a violation of the NPOV policy. Sam [Spade] 20:37, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You are wrong. Transhumanism was conceptualized by authoritative thinkers who defined it as a futurist extention of secular humanism. The fact that some fringe elements then decided to call themselves transhumanists despite the reality that their anti-humanistic and pseudo-scientific views are incompatible with transhumanism doesn't change the original definition of the paradigm. In other words, should fascism be discussed in the Liberal Democracy article as being a legitimate form of liberal democracy if a Russian fascist dictator were to rise to power by calling himself a "liberal democrat" for propaganda purposes? I think not. Loremaster 18:22, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Your false analogy fails to provide any explanation to your unreasonable reversion of the edits made by a number of users. Please review wikipedia:revert. Sam [Spade] 18:50, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I obviously disagree with you and always will on all these points. I've tried to compromise but you do not seem interested. You have failed to explained why my analogy is false or why my reversion is unreasonable. For the record, I have and will continue to revert this article to remove irrelevant material. Loremaster 19:34, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Your vow to continue to disobey policy is noted. Sam [Spade] 19:39, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Your interpretation and enforcement of policy seems to be very arbitrary. Your failure to explain yourself is troublesome. I find this situation quite sad since we have worked well together to improve the Knights Templar article significantly. Loremaster 20:01, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

If you can engage in dialogue and constructive editing here, as you have done on Knights Templar, then I'd have little reason to be upset, and would be able to remove the dispute headers and archive my request for comment. All I'm asking for is that you meet me halfway. Sam [Spade] 21:21, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

OK. I hope you are satisfied with my lastest edits to the article. Loremaster 22:24, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I am, thank you. Sam [Spade] 22:51, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Disputed

I am not alone in finding this article to be bizarre and biased. The continued reversion of cited and verified additions is but a symptom of the disease of POV to be found here. Please note Wikipedia:Pages_needing_attention#Philosophy.2C_Larry.27s_Text and Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Loremaster. Sam [Spade] 05:55, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I no longer dispute the article, and have archived my request for comment due to the reasonable compromise and receptiveness to dialogue from User:Loremaster. [1].

Sam [Spade] 23:02, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Turing test and intelligence

creation of artificial intelligence beyond anything conceived of in the Turing Test

This phrase doesn't mean anything. The turing test does not "conceive" of a particular kind of artificial intelligence. It rather follows the hypothesis, that "any being which can fully fake being a human must be intelligent". That doesn't place any limit on how much more intelligent the being can be and also doesn't say "any being which fails the turing test isn't intelligent".

I think it's just a high-falutin' way of saying "creation of artificial intelligence that's smarter than humans". -- Heron 20:03, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia is mean to be in English, not high-falutin'. Maybe we could start a separate edition though?? Mozzerati 21:03, 2004 Aug 14 (UTC)

That was my point. I don't like bombastic writing (except when it's done for fun, of course ;-) ), so I suggested a simpler alternative. -- Heron 21:19, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Disputed phrase

"the pace of technological development is steadily increasing,"

This is opinion, not fact; it should be noted as such and attributed. I personally dispute it; there was a great impulse with the "discovery" of quantum mechanics in the early 20th C., this is followed by a slow down in fundamental discovery. Current technological development is largely incremental improvement and even that is showing some signs of slowing (a la Jet engine..) Mozzerati 21:03, 2004 Aug 14 (UTC)

Good point. I rephrased it. Loremaster 21:26, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Human Cognome Project

I'd like to incorporate a mention of the Human Cognome Project into this article, as it is relevent to human brain augmentation and AI research. Any suggestions? -- Dave User:Sydhart

I've added it to the Transhumanism and technology section. Loremaster 21:38, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Transhumanist manifestos

This page is rather long and I'd like to either move the WTA and Extropy manifestos to a separate page or just link to them externally. By the time a reader gets to that portion of the article, he should have a fair idea of what transhumanism is about and shouldn't need two manifestos to hammer it in. Is anyone strongly opposed to this? -- Schaefer 12:20, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Loremaster 16:07, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Pseudo Transhuman web site links

Why is transtopia.org, prometheism.net and cosmotheism.net labelled pseudotranshuman organizations? To me that represents bias as to why those web sites would be labelled pseudo, what makes a web site pseudo?

On the front page of prometheism.net it states the following

(Prometheism is) The First Sovereign Transtopian & Neo-Eugenic Libertarian Religious-State.

In the principles sections of prometheism it states

Our Promethean Species embraces Conscious Evolution

Our immediate aim is to create a neo-eugenically enhanced race that will eventually become a new, superior species with whatever scientific means are available at the present time. In the short-term, this will be achieved via neo-eugenics, ie. voluntary positive eugenics, human cloning, germ-line engineering, gene therapy and genetic engineering.

In the long-term, when the science becomes available we intend to utilize transhuman technologies: nanotechnology, mind uploading, A/I and other variations of ultra exo-tech.

Our goal is to enable total and unlimited self-transformation, consciousness and expansion across the universe of our species.

It also states note the key words - Transhuman Technologies... and the embracing of transhumanism and extropy.

We Define neo-eugenics as conscious evolution (these words are interchangeable). Purposefully directed evolution via voluntary positive neo-eugenics (including voluntary selective breeding), cloning, genetic engineering and ultimately any and all transhuman technologies. Neo-Eugenics means harnessing all science, technology and knowledge available now or in the future, guiding it with spirituality, ethical considerations and higher consciousness, ultimately towards achieving total and unlimited self transformation. The term Neo-Eugenics embodies the sciences and philosophies involved in Biotechnology, Extropy and Transhumanism all merged in a philosophy of spiritual Conscious Evolution.

http://prometheism.net/principles.htm

I believe removing prometheism from this page, will be cause to bring this issue to arbitration to confirm that the individual who keeps removing it obviously is biased and lacks an understanding of what transhumanism. NPOV. thats your problem brian NPOV and blatant bias.

Dnagod 22:22, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

FYI, please place new comments in Talk pages at the bottom. Thanks, -Willmcw 22:40, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This issue of whether or not prometheism, cosmotheism and transtopianism are legitimate forms of transhumanism has already been debated ad nauseum and a consensual conclusion was reach to end this dispute a long time ago. Therefore, I will not repeat myself except to say that this article is about apolitical and secular transhumanism. You are more than welcomed to create new articles for these fringe philosophies and groups. Loremaster 21:16, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Dear Loremaster, Please show me where these debates are, and please explain how a leftist-marxist WTA is a secular organization? Since when is lefist-marxism secular? Where did I get this term leftist-marxist from? James Hughes publically describes himself as a post-marxist socialist, who is the secretary and co-founder of the organization and also the individual who wrote the vast majority of the policies and philosophies for the organization WTA (world transhumanism organization). So how can that be secular? Extropy, comes out into the open publically claiming to be a right wing conservative organization which has huge threads and discussion on supporting and promoting gun rights. How are these things NOT political? Theres no such thing as secular in Transhumanism, every transhuman organization has a political agenda. Thank you for your kind consideration.

Dnagod 20:25, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Manifestos

Extropy and a lot of the other sites listed under manifestos are linked else where in the article, so I felt it important to also include these manifestos

[http://www.prometheism.net/principles.htm Principles of Prometheism]
[http://www.transtopia.org/principles.html Principles of Transtopianism]

Please do not revert to childish insults, and a biased personal agenda removing these links, they belong their and represent Principles which I dare say are some of the most interesting, fascinating and creative principles.

Don't abuse your privileges here and force your agenda on this topic of transhumanism, all perspectives are welcome here whether you like it or not.

Dnagod 17:26, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This issue of whether or not prometheism, cosmotheism and transtopianism are legitimate forms of transhumanism has already been debated ad nauseum and a consensual conclusion was reach to end this dispute a long time ago. Therefore, I will not repeat myself except to say that this article is about apolitical and secular transhumanism. You are more than welcomed to create new articles for these fringe philosophies and groups. Loremaster 21:16, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What makes you think transtopianism (transtopia.org) is not secular?

I never said it was. However, it is clearly political. Loremaster 19:01, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

STOP removing these links, you are biased, emotional, unfair, unbalanced and lacking in neutrality.

[http://www.prometheism.net/principles.htm Principles of Prometheism]
[http://www.transtopia.org/principles.html Principles of Transtopianism]

These links are to stay, and you have no right to remove them. They are valid and legit links, Do not abuse your privileges on this project or you will be revoked.

Dnagod 02:55, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Not taking sides on the issue of those links themselves, I should point out that Loremaster has exactly the same rights you do when it comes to editing this article and that removing links that aren't relevant to the subject of an article is not an "abuse of priviledges". Furthermore, I should mention the policy "Wikipedia:no personal attacks" that we have here. Please refrain from attacking users instead of making arguments about the subject of the debate you're having with them, it's not going to help matters any. Bryan 03:41, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I am not biased , emotional, unfair, unbalanced and lacking in neutrality. I've already explained why these fringe ideologies are incompatible with the humanistic and scientific roots of transhumanism. However, to end this dispute, I created the Fringe ideologies and groups section to include these controversial links. Someone removed this section but I added it back because I knew someone like Dnagod would eventually come along and add these links in sections where they shouldn't be. This article is about Transhumanism not its dubious offshoots. Loremaster 19:01, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The man who invented the word Transhumanism (Huxley), was an open, avid and published advocate of state sponsored coercive eugenics, selective breeding, and elitist eugenic communities. Therefore you are wrong, and thus the specific issue of VOLUNTARY eugenics does NOT violate in anyway, shape or form, being part of transhumanism. You are wrong, biased, unfair, unbalanced, and lacking in neutrality. Transtopia.org and prometheism.net DO NOT SUPPORT COERCIVE EUGENICS in their PRINCIPLES, THEY SUPPORT VOLUNTARY - EUGENICS - READ VOLUNTARY. Forgive the capitalization, but I do that for emphasis, not to scream.

please stop removing these links, you are biased, emotional, unfair, unbalanced and lacking in neutrality. These are not personal attacks, these are stated facts that you have not read the prometheism.net web site.

These links are to stay, and you have no right to remove them. They are valid and legit links, Do not abuse your privileges on this project.

I ask you to bring arbitration and discussion on this fact. Your censorship, bias and personal agenda will not win. Go to prometheism.net right now and find one place on this site that says prometheism supports COERCIVE EUGENICS. you will not find it anywhere. Prometheism.net clearly states that it only supports voluntary eugenics. Read the sworn oath on prometheism.net

The Sworn Oath of Prometheism (front page of prometheism.net)

We Prometheans are voluntarily coming together to purposefully direct the creation of a new post-human species. A species with higher intellect, creativity, consciousness and love of ones people. A communion of intellect and beauty, for the simple reason that it can be done. This creation is what gives us purpose and meaning. No other justification is required for this program to advance our Promethean species.

Next I want you to read the Principles of prometheism (http://www.prometheism.net/principles.htm)

2. Our Promethean Species embraces Conscious Evolution

Our immediate aim is to create a neo-eugenically enhanced race that will eventually become a new, superior species with whatever scientific means are available at the present time. In the short-term, this will be achieved via neo-eugenics, ie. voluntary positive eugenics, human cloning, germ-line engineering, gene therapy and genetic engineering.

5. Total Freedom, Liberty and Self-Determination

Our Libertarian religious nation is founded on the principles of total freedom of speech (including offensive language and language which hurts peoples feelings), freedom of thought, the right to bear arms, liberty, progress, productivity and the pursuit of individual happiness.

        Membership to our Sovereign libertarian neo-eugenic

nation is VOLUNTARY ONLY. We REJECT all totalitarianism and believe COERCIVE neo-eugenics is counter to the ideal of individual freedom. The promethean governments sole purpose is to protect the rights of the individual. We DO NOT wish to STERILIZE anyone or FORCE anyone to practice neo-eugenics.

DNA or genetic capital is the most valuable commodity in the universe. Our primary goal is to promote positive and voluntary neo-eugenics by channeling national resources to the best, brightest and most creative.

We Define neo-eugenics as conscious evolution (these words are interchangeable). Purposefully directed evolution via voluntary positive neo-eugenics (including voluntary selective breeding), cloning, genetic engineering and ultimately any and all transhuman technologies. Neo-Eugenics means harnessing all science, technology and knowledge available now or in the future, guiding it with spirituality, ethical considerations and higher consciousness, ultimately towards achieving total and unlimited self transformation. The term Neo-Eugenics embodies the sciences and philosophies involved in Biotechnology, Extropy and Transhumanism all merged in a philosophy of spiritual Conscious Evolution.

This is from the principles of prometheism.net Last Updated: 3/13/03 this means that prometheism is NOT FRINGE, it does not support the fringe philosophy of FORCED COERCIVE EUGENICS. Again the capitalization is not screaming, its meant to provide emphasis. Also my comments about you not being very knowledgeable about prometheism.net and transtopia.org are not meant as personal insults or personal attacks, but as an observation.

Dnagod 20:06, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Dnagod, you're the webmaster for these sites, so it is you who is being biased. SlimVirgin 20:14, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)