Talk:Sultanate of Ifat

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2019 and 12 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Agnesstanton8.

Name

Should we add this text "The Ifat Sultanate was a medieval Somali Muslim sultanate in the Horn." ?-page 41 of Ethiopia: The Land, Its people, History and Culture

I mean the dynasty that ruled over the Ifat known as Wilinwili/ Walashma was in fact Somali from what can be surmised, Somali as this page itself notes was a widely spoken language and subsequent sultanates like the Adal largely employed Somali soldiers and so on and that book itself considers them a Somali sultanate. I don't want to add the text simply to have it deleted so do you guys want to add it? Awale-Abdi (talk) 08:29, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

I added it and sourced it as well so never mind.Awale-Abdi (talk) 12:06, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Concerns?

@EthiopianHabesha: I have added a note about Nile diversion, but please note that in the fourth last line on page 40 of Pankhurst this is called an idle threat. The sentences that follow suggest that the Egyptian sultan realized this was so, then dismissed that idle threat. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:31, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: This article is not about the history of Egypt and the fears of Egyptians, and that is why I did not add it. But if you feel that is relevant, go ahead add it. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:54, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Too much detail

Ms Sarah Welch, what is realy the point of adding all these information? To prove my summary is not good? If you think there are parts in which I summarised in bad faith (which so far you did not explain just like I did explain your paraphrasing out of context) you could have mention them here and we could have discussed about them. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 12:46, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't understand you. Please provide diffs, when you allege something. The version you created did not reflect the sources. I have revised the article, not with you in focus. I have revised the article and added more information to more accurately summarize the sources, thus improve the article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:18, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

The end of Ifat sultanate

@EthiopianHabesha: If the source does not mention "Ifat sultanate", "Ifat province(s)", or something using the word Ifat, directly or as context, please do not add it to this article as that is OR and Synthesis. Unless you can identify a reliable source that states Sultanate of Ifat existed in 18th century or later, don't suggest so because that is OR. If you see support for Sultanate of Ifat and Oromo people etc discussion, please add quotes, because I don't see it. I have no objections if you add more content from additional reliable source(s) that mention / discuss the Sultanate of Ifat. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:31, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Origins of the Ifat Sultanate and Walashma Dynasty

This whole section is inaccurate because:

1) It suggests that Umar was the one to conquer the Shewa sultanate but he founded Ifat in Zeila in 1185 and it was most likely one of his sons or grandchildren that did that. He certainly wasn't around at that time.

2) There is no mention of Yusuf bin Ahmed al-Kawneyn and neither the debate that him being ancestor of Umar by way of 5 generations is most likely false.

3) There is no mention of their relation with the Adal Kingdom, my best guess is that Umar originated in the Adal kingdom and founded Ifat. Some maps show the Ifat sultanate encompassing the whole area, including the Adal kingdom. So either they conquered Adal in 1185 or the Walashma dynasty was in fact the ruling dynasty of Adal at the time and on conquering Shewa, Adal became known as Ifat. To add complication to the matter, I see mentions of there being a King of Adal that was defeated by Amda Seyon 'In 1332 the King of Adal was slain when trying to stop Amda Seyon’s march towards Zeila.' But again, this could be Sabr ad-Din of Ifat who was defeated in 1332.

4) Umar was certainly not appointed by the Emperor of Ethiopia in 1275 by Yukuno Amla because Umar was the founder of Ifat in 1185.

5) No Ifat Sultan was appointed by any Ethiopian Emperor until 1332 when Jamal ad-Din I was installed. The Ifat sultanate was not under Ethiopian control at that point and was a rival sovereign state that fought with Ethiopia by proxy of the Showa Sultanate and definitely had no power to appoint their Sultans.

6) 'He was succeeded by Sultan Ali, according to Maqrizi, who was the first to revolt against the customary allegiance to the Ethiopian emperor'. Firstly, he wasn't succeeded by Ali directly, there were vassal kings before him. Secondly, it wasn't an allegiance that he revolted against, rather a vassalage to Emperor Amde Seyon, after he deposed Sabr ad-Din and installed his brother Jamal ad-Din. Allegiance is sort of the wrong word because there was never an allegiance -- they were installing rival Sultans of Shewa against each other's wills and interests from Ifat's official founding right up to Haqq ad-Din I, who invaded and burnt their churches for threatening the Mamluk Sultan who was persecuting Egyptian Copts. There was a religious rivalry taking place at the time for a start. This just loops back to point 5).

7) Perhaps something I find even more perplexing is that there is mention on the page of Amde Seyon that Ifat was merely a province of Ethiopia and was under the control of a governor appointed by the Ethiopian Emperor even before Haqq ad-Din and it speaks about Haqq ad-Din and Sabr ad-Din 'rebelling', which obviously supports that notion. Yet other articles say that they were encouraged to 'invade Ethiopia' speaking about it like a separate entity.

My best guess is that Ifat was an independent kingdom and there was some sort of agreement of mutual existence and trade between the two kingdoms, perhaps it was nominally part of Ethiopia. It is very unclear. It is also worth noting that some sources claim Adal was also part of Ethiopia

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 7xn (talk • contribs) 15:13, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Ifat

The sultanate of Ifat only extended west to Ankober, There hasn’t been any Sultanate that has ruled over Tegulet Menz and most of Amhara Semien Shewa. Islam never dominated the Shewan Amharan Highlands. I have read all the sources and there is no evidence of Islam being a predominant religion within North Shewa. AbysinniaGuard (talk) 12:02, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

have you heard about the sultanate of shewa you can read about it on wikipedia it was a muslim sultanate in shewa, later the ifat sulanate invaded the sultanate shewa and took over shewa and also parts of shewa used to be part of the fatagar province the province included parts of modern day afar region and north shewa as well as east shewa--Gashaamo (talk) 12:14, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

also even amda seyon mentioned that tegulat was a muslim city, their is no reason to destroy and vandalise history to fit a certain modern day perspective history belongs in the past just read it and injoy it--Gashaamo (talk) 12:27, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Ethiopian state

Dozens of references (which I added) were removed [1] this kingdom was clearly Ethiopian and founded in the interior of Shewa see this for ex; [2], hence I will be tagging it until it is resolved. This is not a Somali sultanate, the speakers were not confirmed to be Somali either, its original research, the sources do not even match the statements in the article. Magherbin (talk) 21:58, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Like I said in our previous conversation on the other board. Taddesse Tamrat is not reliable he's simply quoting the Ethio-Semitic theory from Ulrich Braukamper who himself did not believe in it. Ulrich Braukamper who is cited by this source for example merely entertains the idea that the Walashma were possibly Argobbas [3] in a book of his but then shortly after does not hold to this view and uses the usual view [4] that’s been shared on Wikipedia about their Qurayshi & Hashemite genealogical origins suggesting that they were Arabians. He does not then tie this dynasty to the Argobba. It was simply a claim with no evidence attached to it. This is what you call fringe theory.

The mainstream view with primary sources backings is they were Arabians who settled and assimilated with the local Somali population in Zeila and founded Ifat/Adal kingdoms. I'll list multiple of them right here since you failed to reply in the other page.

Africa Quarterly - Volum 43 page 108 states:

However, it was not until the 13th century and after it got Islamised that the Somalis led by Yemeni immigrants founded a state which they called Ifat with its principal centre in Zeila.

Area Handbook for Somalia Volume 550 page 18 by Irving Kaplan

By the early fifteenth century the Muslim empire of Adal, which had its capital in Zeila and some of its territory in what is present-day eastern Ethiopia, was ready to do battle over territory and religion with expanding Christian Abyssinia. Adal was part of the state Ifat, whose ruling dynasty claimed Arab ancestry, however, mixed they have been with local peoples.

Church and State in Ethiopia, 1270-1527 - Page 124

According to Maqrizi, the ancestors of ' Umar Wälasma first settled in Jabara ( or Jabarta ) a region which he says belonged to Zeila; they gradually moved further inland and occupied Ifat.

Encyclopedia of Africa south of the Sahara page 62

Many centuries of trade relation with Arabia began with the establishment of commercial colonies along the coast by the Himmyrati Kingdom and these eventually developed into two small states of Zeila or Adal in the north and Mogadishu in the south, gradually local dynasties of Somalized Arabs or Arabized Somali ruled." In due time these converts [Somali-Arabs] even established the Muslim sultanates of Ifat, Dawaro, Adal, and Dahlak and put pressure on the highland Ethiopian Christians by controlling trade through the main seaports of Suakin, Aydhab, Zeila, and Berbera.

They were indeed a Somali Dynasty with an Arabian ancestory. This is the mainstream view supported by primary sources. I hope this clarifies it. Thanks. Ayaltimo (talk) 12:53, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

This discussion isnt going anywhere as you're ignoring opposing view points, other contributors can refer to the explanations I and another editor have given on the board [5]. Ethiopian and German historians are not backing fringe theories. Magherbin (talk) 20:10, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm following the mainstream view and you're clearly ignoring the strong points I'm making. The Ethiopian authors are quoting from Ulrich Braukamper who himself did not believe in the Argobba theory as I just pointed above. He follows the mainstream view. I suggest you drop your ethno-nationalistic agenda. Ayaltimo (talk) 16:46, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

You've ignored the questions directed at you by User:Llywrch instead you're violating WP:BATTLE by focusing your replies on me or my conduct. Its clear that you and the other user (Ragnimo) only want one viewpoint on the page which ironically supports Somali ethno nationalism. Wikipedia is about presenting facts as stated by references available not bias based on an editors own analysis. I would compromise on the article just stating its a Muslim state but based on the editing you've been doing you obviously will not. Somalis governing Ifat is not a view held by the academic world however historians tie Ifat/Walasma class with the Argobba (an Ethiopian ethnic group) which you dismissed for ex; p.48 on this thesis [6]. I will be opening an RFC as the community needs to come to a decision on the matter. Magherbin (talk) 19:34, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

No, I am looking to have a fruitful discussion with you but you're not reaching in good faith and literally lying by saying they don't tie Somalis to Ifat when I just literally listed multiple references and just explained to you why the couple of Ethiopian sources you're using are unreliable because they're all quoting from a German historian who himself does not believe in it. You can’t share a source that’s just using another source you’re sharing as a source, that’s just ridiculous. Furthermore, the books you use often site authors such as Richard Pankhurst, I.M Lewis, Enrico Cerulli, and Braukamper who all directly oppose their claims. I'm merely pointing out the contradiction and inconsistency of your sources.

Please call them and let them assess this matter. I have done enough research to know what I am talking about and I will literally break down everything including your argument. You're not only disputing me but many others. I would also like to call upon other editors who follow the mainstream view and properly dealt with fringe theory before to please join on the board. GoldenDragonHorn Awale-Abdi AcidSnow Runehelmet ---Ayaltimo (talk) 05:37, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Pinging other ethno nationalists is not appropriate here, see WP:VOTESTACK, the intention of the RFC is not to notify ethno nationalists but gathering neutral opinion on the matter to reach a consensus, the participants are random. I've also researched this topic and I.M Lewis is the only one to claim Arab Somalis founded those states. I'm not sure why you reverted the corrections I made on Al Umari and Leo Africanus, they did not state Walashma spoke Somali hence I will be removing that if you do not provide sources for these claims. Al Umari actually states Ethiopian Semitic. Magherbin (talk) 17:56, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

And why are you acting like you aren't a Habashi ethno-nationalist yourself. I doubt you are even Harari seeing how ignorant you are of Somalis and East African Muslim traditions, you are probably Abyssinian Amhara nationalist as your old sock account was Beta Amhara , pushing for Habesha/Ethiosemetic POV and even put undue weight on Harari because they are ethio semetic speakers. You are even removing mentions of Somalis at every turn from page , even where it is sourced and including your own original research about Harari.

Furthermore Al-Umari already describes the language of the people of Ifat especially Zeila people when he says:

“they cultivate two times annually by seasonal rains … The rainfall for the winter is called ‘Bil’ and rainfall for the ‘summer’ is called ‘Karam’ in the language of the people of Zayla" . It appears that the historian was referring, in one-way or another, to these still used terms, Karan and Bil. This indicates that the ancient Somali solar calendar was very similar to the one they use today.

Both are Somali terms for the seasons in the Somali calendar which is used for farming to this day. These are not ethio-semetic terms, harrari words or Afar words.

A-Omari says Al-Habashi ,which was just a lose generalized term at the time used by medieval Muslim writers to refer to populations inside Ethiopia, and by the read sea coastlands as explained here:

The rest of the designations are broadly ethno-geographical. Red Sea East Africans Appear as Habashi, or Abyssinian, which in the Geniza context generally applies to Muslims from the Red Sea coastlands rather than from the Ethiopian highlands.

[7]

It didn't mean they spoke Amharic or Abyssinian, but a language native to that Geographical area. And you can see it in how other medieval muslim authors use Al-Habasha. For example Ibn Arabi (d. 1240) writes: "In respect of the fact that the Truth (Al-Haqq) is the Speaker. He mentions Himself by names … These names themselves have names with us in the language of every speaker. In the Arabic language, the name by which He named Himself in respect of being the speaker is “Allaah”, in persian “Khuday,” in Habashi “Waaq” in the tongue of the Franks “Creator” and so on in every language…. (al-Futuhat al-Makiyya II 683.29)"

وتركيب حروفها بحسب اللسان والمعنى الموجب للإسم معقول عند المخلوقين فيقول العربي يا الله للذي يقول له الفارسي أي خداي ويقول له الرومي أيشا ويقول له الأرمني أي أصفاج ويناديه التركي أي تنكري ويناديه الأفرنجي أي كريطور ويقول له الحبشي واق (al-Futuhat al-Makiyya II 683.29)"

Waaq if you don't know is the name for God in the Language of Somali and Oromo. The name Waaq itself originating from Somalis and they use it Quranic translations for Allah. It's not something used by Ethio-semetic speakers. Just like how berber was used to describe Somalis doesn't mean that they were modern day North African Berbers in Somalia or spoke berber language. So it's inconclusive, while the descriptions Al Omari gives people of Zayla(The headquarters), is direct and conclusive with use of words from that language which are Somali.

Also Leo Africanus talks about the population in Zeila and as we affirmed already they were predominately Somali and governed local Somali dynasties . I'M Lewis, Enrico Cerruli said: "formed and ruled generally by local dynasties of Somalized Arabs or Somali strongly influenced by Arabic culture "

They said that because like modern day Somalis they had fictive Prophetic Quraishi lineages: [8]

Ifat's rulers , the Walashma ' dynasty , claimed a fictive descent - much like the Somali myth of Arabian ancestry from noble Arab forebears .

This genealogy has zero to do with Arabs, more so to do with how Somalis/Walashma were trying to link themselves to Islam via claiming special relationship with the prophet. Walashma themselves claimed Al-Jabarti(Darod) via Aqeel Abu Talib ibn Abd al-Muttalib the cousin of the Prophet just like the Somali Darod clan do today.

But however this is covered by Sade Mire who clarifes this and how archealogical and textual evidences shows how they were founded and ruled by indigenous local Somalis and not Arabs. [9]

Ragnimo (talk) 13:42, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Cant read all of this you've spammed the page but let me respond to one point, Richard Pankhurst states Ifat probably spoke Amharic,[10] unless you would like to write an academic journal by reviewing his work, keep the comments to yourself. We are not here to refute scholarly opinion which you're attempting to do on the talk page. Keep the fringe theories and original research off the page, i'm not interested. Cambridge reference also states a Ethiopian semitic language was spoken [11] thats all that should matter here. Magherbin (talk) 05:47, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

It's not that you can't read, its that you are uninterested in reading it because it doesn't fit you your Ethiopian/Amhara ehnationalist point of view. Like i explained "Habashi" was a lose geographical term, it didn't mean they spoke amharic or Abyssinian. Like it is explained here: [12]

You see this when Al-Umari and Ibn Said relate words from the language they are speaking of, "Karam" & "Bil" are both Somali terms for seasons and months. Which he says "in the language of the people of Zayla" And "Waaq" is the somali term for God which Ibn Arabi says is "in Habashi" . If "Habashi" meant Amharic or Abyssinian then the word for God would have been Igziabeher which is the word for "God" in Ethio-semetic languages.

Pankhurst wrote "probably" meant amharic is the author's own assertion of Ifat province. He is assuming things. And Cambridge relates the same assumption as well but makes it more restricted to only the showa population but also states "The linguistic factor may have provided another dimension for the basic cleavage between the sedentary Muslim communities in the Ethiopian interior and the nomadic peoples of the vast lowlands between the plateu and the coast, who were predominately speakers of Eastern cushitic" [13] Ragnimo (talk) 13:05, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Surprised you didnt call Pankhurst an Ethiopian Amhara ethno nationalist, and yes east Cushitic was likely spoken by lowlanders. I just corrected what the reference stated in the article, it falsely claimed Ifat spoke Somali when the references did not state this. Again its not our job to analyze Al Umari's statements thats for the academics to do. Shewa is regarded as the root of Ifat see Encyclopædia Britannica for example; [14] hence cambrdige should restrict their analysis to Showa. Cambridge also states Walasma the ruling dynasy of Ifat origin is to blame for the development of semitic language Argobba and Harari in Harar see [15]. I'm not sure why you're bolding statements that indicate Cushitic speakers were majority that may be true but this state was not a democracy, majority did not rule. The states were largely based on Islamic rights to the throne which happen to be Semitic. Magherbin (talk) 20:35, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Rfc: What is the origin of the Ifat Sultanate?

Should the Ifat Sultanate be labelled Ethiopian, Somali or neither? Magherbin (talk) 20:08, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

• Neither. Casting 21st century geography on the 13th is futile. If Somaliland becomes recognized as independent, will we have a RfC on whether this ancient entity was Somalilandi as opposed to Somali or Ethiopian?--VikingDrummer (talk) 06:16, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

• Somali VikingDrummer Somali is an ethnicity btw not just a nationality , what he is referring to isn't a modern day nationality but the origins of Ifat as a state. Their origins being Somali is clear and in which is covered in the above section btw. Their ruling dynasty originating from Zeila a Somali port city, as well as possessing Somali genealogical and saintly traditions and speaking the Somali language etc. Ragnimo (talk) 14:00, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

References also indicate it was founded in Ethiopian territory and certainly not led by Somali ethnic group anyway. Saint traditions apply to the Muslim groups in the entire east africa not just Somalis. Magherbin (talk) 20:40, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

• Neither per VikingDrummer. The question is directed at what the lede of the article should state. I think we can discuss the various views regarding geographic area and its people, in the body somewhere. Magherbin (talk) 19:28, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
• Neither. as per the comment above. Sea Ane (talk) 11:11, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
• Somali Ottoman Empire was a Turkish empire despite ruling Arabs and other ethnic groups same way as Ifat Sultanate was a Somali kingdom that ruled other groups especially during the conquest of Shewa. Zeila was the capital and center for Ifat Sultanate. The Walashma Dynasty were ethnic Somalis. It would make no sense to dismiss the rulers and majority. Ayaltimo (talk) 15:51, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
• Neither per VikingDrummer. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:43, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
• Somali. AcidSnow (talk) 15:02, 28 April 2021 (UTC)