Talk:Laos

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 August 2018 and 22 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tddang14 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Josephbell21. This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2018 and 22 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Emily Ky (article contribs).

Pronunciation of Laos

The wording under Etymology is too strongly worded and editorialized (see bold, below) and not supported by the cited references. As of now (3/26/2020) it says:
English-speakers often mispronounce "Laos", falsely believing that it should be pronounced with a silent 's', however the 's' in Laos should not be silent.

It is more factually accurate to state:
In the English language, "Laos" is normally pronounced with the 's' (like 'blouse').

This is 100% factually accurate. I'd even be fine if the word "normally" was dropped from that (but I'd prefer it left in). However, the existing wording is overly exclusive of an important fact pointed out in the main blog post used to support the pronunciation (the Trip Savvy link):
Although travelers who haven't visited the country tend to pronounce the "s" at the end of Laos, many long-term travelers moving through Southeast Asia tend to leave the "s" silent and use the pronunciation that sounds like "Lao" (rhymes with cow).

The reason long-term travelers pronounce it this way is that they are adapting to the way it is actually pronounced locally (by natives in particular). It is factually incorrect to state that pronouncing it "Lao" is wrong when that's how the natives pronounce it and many English-speakers choose to adopt this pronunciation. It's equivalent to saying that English-speakers are wrong for calling Germany by it's actual name (Deutschland). In English, it is normally pronounced 'Germany,' but 'Deutschland' isn't wrong. The exact same thing is true for 'Laos' being pronounced 'Lao'.

Xhandel (talk) 22:54, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Reply - oppose.

• I disagree with almost every sentence of what you've said above, but the first point to make is...what's the actual reason to change here...you can't point to any actual issue with any of the reliable sources, and are simply engaging in original research based on your personal perception of what is accurate. The statements you have taken issue with are backed up by no less than five reliable secondary sources. The correct pronunciation of Laos as having an 's' has been in lede of this article since at least 2008. You're opposing a consensus of at least 12 years and five reliable sources...based on what...
• You want to change it to say..."In the English language, "Laos" is normally pronounced with the 's' (like 'blouse')." Reliable sources say Laos should be pronounced with the 's', this is what the article says, whether you like it or not. You can't just airbrush this fact from the article. The sources also say that many people mispronounce Laos, and this fact is also included in the article. All these facts are already included in the article. But when deciding the proper pronunciation of the country in English, Wikipedia uses reliable sources, not personal opinion.
• Your wording is also misleading because no source actually says what people "normally" do. The sources say that 'many' people mispronounce Laos, and this is precisely what the article says. "Many" and "normally" have totally different meanings in the English language. So you are once again engaging in original research with that edit and trying to contort the existing source to fit what you'd like it to say.
• "The reason long-term travelers pronounce it this way is that they are adapting to the way it is actually pronounced locally (by natives in particular)." (A), this is once again original research - the tripsavvy article actually suggests the precise opposite of what you've said: suggesting that locals adapted to the tourists' ways rather than tourists adapting to the local ways. (B) The wikipedia article already makes it abundantly clear what Laotians call their country and how they pronounce it in the lao language. This fact is already included in the article. (C) You realise there is no word in the Lao language called "Laos", the statements you are objecting to are discussing the pronunciation of Laos in English...not the pronunciation of 'Pathet Lao' or 'Lao PDR' etc. (D) You are once again engaging in original research when you are talking about how local lao people pronounce a word in English. Here is a video of a lao man explicitly pronouncing Laos with the 's' when referring to the country: LINK, so don't generalise about how Lao people say x or y in English without evidence. (E) Even the Tripsavvy article says that every Laotian surveyed wished for Laos to be pronounced with the 's'. So please stop generalizing about what local people do/want: WP:No original research. (F) In any case, wikipedia's pronunciations of English words are based off of reliable sources not your opinion of how locals think.
• "It's equivalent to saying that English-speakers are wrong for calling Germany by it's actual name (Deutschland). In English, it is normally pronounced 'Germany,' but 'Deutschland' isn't wrong." Umn...what...it is wrong to call Germany as Deutschland in English... The correct word for Germany in English is Germany. The correct word for Germany in German is Deutschland. Secondly, we're discussing the pronunciation of a word in English, the example you've just given doesn't relate to pronunciation at all. I do ask that we not go down the rabbit hole of analogies because that will only confuse things.
• "The exact same thing is true for 'Laos' being pronounced 'Lao'." Five reliable sources disagree with you, including the world's most major dictionaries. Wikipedia simply works by summarising what reliable sources say, it is not a place for advocacy. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 09:42, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Clearly my arguments and statements have not helped with my primary objection, so I am going to drop them and start over. (Sorry for not being more clear about my main objection from the start.)

(Starting over now...) I thank you for keeping me honest and in offering thoughtful responses to my statements. My primary objection from the start has been the wording and word choice used. I do not disagree at all that, in English, Laos is pronounced with the 's' (with the exceptions I already noted, but am fine ignoring here). However, the current word choices (no matter when they were added) amount to editorializing (WP:EDITORIALIZING) and possibly other style issues. It is much clearer and more concise to state the simple fact that I suggested: In the English language, "Laos" is pronounced with the 's' (like 'blouse'). This mirrors the tone and wording used for In the Lao language... and is almost a direct quote from one blog post. Most importantly, it removes unneeded and unnecessary words that fail to maintain an impartial tone in the article, as required by Wikipedia. While I do maintain my own opinions on the subject, I hope you can understand that (in the end) I am seeking honest improvement to the text.

Xhandel (talk) 14:45, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Reply: Okay starting over...There is no issue with impartiality when the words in the text are backed up by all of the reliable sources. If you can find significant reliable sources to the contrary, then wikipedia's policy on neutrality requires that both of these view points be discussed (WP:Neutral point of view#Due and undue weight). But, as you just agreed, Laos is pronounced with the 's' in English...So all the sources are doing is stating a fact and this fact is not in dispute. The policy on editorializing is irrelevant here, that is more about avoiding opinion in the language e.g it would be editorialising if the text said "unfortunately" or "sadly" English speakers often do X. But the article uses regular academic language at the moment which simply summarises the sources so there isn't an issue with editorialising. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 17:30, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

"Ai Lao" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Ai Lao. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 November 3#Ai Lao until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 08:30, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

'plateaus' and 'plateaux'

We have both of these in this article. Is 'plateaux' some regional English usage? --142.163.194.156 (talk) 15:28, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

"one of the only"

"one of the world's only socialist states openly endorsing Communism" Are there any socialist states clandestinely endorsing Communism? But in any case, does this article mean "the only" or "one of the ... few"? --142.163.194.156 (talk) 15:32, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

"association football"

Was this article written in 1920?--142.163.194.156 (talk) 15:49, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

the Mongols

Laos had dealings with the Mongol (Yuan) Empire / Mongol troops were in Laos - this should be mentioned in the history section - many RS's are available. 50.111.52.253 (talk) 05:26, 4 June 2021 (UTC)