Talk:Rastafari

A Christian religion?

Is Rastafarianism considered to be a Christian religion?? If not, how is it related? Is it another Abrahamic faith??

I just added a paragraph on this subject. The only definite classification possible is that Rastas are Abrahamic, without controversy. Some rastas believe they are Orthodox Christians, Protestant Christians or Jews, and some do not classify themselves as any. It has also been influenced greatly by indigenous Native American and African religions, as well as Hinduism. An early group identified themselves with a group of Catholics that did not accept the authority of Rome. So, to answer your question... there is no answer. Tokerboy 19:08 Dec 6, 2002 (UTC)

I Think this is an overreact. While most of the practices and beliefs are equal

to those of Jews and Christians, some are added by "black glasses" of "no more white downpression" standpoint. It is true that Rastas are divided into several sects, being more agressive, for example, Pope as non-Biblical instiution etc. They mostly relate to such East Orthodox Churches as Ezhiopian Chucrh. This is an intresting branch of Christianity, much different from any Europian stream, it is kind of old mixed Christianity and Judaism untouched by Pope and schizma fuss and fights.

To be quick, just see for yourselfs: Rastas are ancient Christians, and they believe they share the Jewish destiny. They connect both Old and New testament in the way it is connected, but usualy not fully recognoized, but also extend this bridge with such beliefs as (see):

SEE ORIENTAL ORTHODOXY IMPORTANCE OF DAVID LINEAGE (FROM Melchizedek TO CHRIST AND BEYOND) ARK OF CONVEYANT IN ETHIOPIA MORE PROPHETS - SEE MARCUS MOSIAH GARVEY NEW MESSIAH: SEE HAILE SELASSIE CONQUERING LION OF TRIBE OF JUDAH

More to come, Blesses

I think some mention should be made of how Rastafarians are similar to and different from the above religions, but I don't know enough to really do so. The information I collected is in the third paragraph (currently) if anybody else feels qualified to add some mentions at Christianity, Judaism, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Protestantism and maybe even Hinduism. Tokerboy 20:08 Dec 6, 2002 (UTC)

--

A living God in Rastafarianism is 'just' one black downpressor man from the Land called Zion or Egypt, who had an Amharic-Christian name of the Holly Trinity. So this partly answers your question. Think also about the cross. Ethiopian Orthodox Church as I am informed has a holiday named The Day of the true 'Holly' Cross. And black, black reggae music is a message from This Man. Or to simply say, you can be an atheist and rastafarian at the same time. And more, there might also be some rasta's axioms scattered all around...

Well, you cant be Rasta and atheist. If you listen reggae, you just might nit see Bible and Rasta all over. Or you think Sean Paul is Reggae? :-)

Reggae is not "message from this man" but it is music FOR the king (God)

{Buffalo Soldiers, Axum's Monolite, the Ark of the Covenant, Ganja at the King Solomon's grave, Menelik I, Menelik II, Battle of Adowa, Creation Rebel, Door Peep, Soldier of His Majesty ... (not to mention futher...} Best regards and respect. --XJamRastafire 15:22 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

The Tawahedo Orthodox Church is not unique in having the Sunday of the Cross. All the Orthodox Churches do. If it is true that one can be an atheist and be a rasta, then that means that Rastafarianism is utterly ANTI-CHRISTIAN and ANTI-ABRAHAMIC and should be identified as such. Dogface 15:07, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I am under the impression that Rastas tend to be quite dogmatic, at least with some of the core matters of their faith (such as the existence of Jah). In any case, a theistic religion that allowed atheism would be most extraordinary... I'm afraid I don't understand your comment at all, XJam. Tuf-Kat 18:28, Jan 8, 2004 (UTC)

If you look at the guy's personal page, you'll see that he's Slovenian and lives in Slovenia. I don't think he has much direct experience with the topic at hand. That he lists "Buffalo Soldiers" as a Rasta topic pretty much clinches it. The Buffalo Soldiers were in the US Army, and if they had any religion in common, it would have been Evangelical Protestantism. They weren't exactly lifted from Jamaica to fill the slots. Dogface 18:39, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Well, Reggae movement is strong in Slovenia. Buffalo Soldiers were forced to fight and this is just and example of black mans suffering Rastas compare to the Jewish history.

More ignorance. The buffalo soldiers were not forced to fight--they were all volunteers. The USA had halted the military draft by that time, since the US Civil War was over. Likewise, equating commercialized "reggae" with Rastafari is simply false. It doesn't matter how many Bob Marley posters one hangs up in the bedroom. If one is willing to claim that a Rasta can simultaneously be an atheist, one proves complete ignorance of Rastafari. Likewise, the Tewahedo Church (Ethiopian Orthodox Church) has made it very plain for decades that they DO NOT consider Rastafari to be part of Orthodox Christianity as practiced within Ethiopia or within any Church in communion with the Tewahedo Church. Tewahedo doctrine is that of the Syrian Orthodox, of the Coptic Orthodox, of the Armenian Orthodox, and closer to that of Russia-man than to that of Rasta-man. Dogface 17:45, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Does anyone else agree the line about Janet Reno does not belong here at all? It definitely doesn't belong where it is in the article, formatted the way it is. But I would also say that there needs to be a paragraph on the clash between the religious use of substances and the drug laws in the U.S.--not this half-assed stab with little exhaustive research behind it.

Homophobia

An anonymous user added:

[More information is requested regarding the history of homophobia and misogyny within this group, and efforts both current and past to progress.]

I second it. Tokerboy

Well, only dancehall music is homophobic. Rastas don`t like homosexuals but do not condemn it so openly and homophobic.

Police seek Jamaican singer after armed attack on gay men

Sports Giant Threatens Antigay Reggae Singers

Puma threatens sponsorship withdrawal over anti-gay reggae row

Police Begin Criminal Probe Of Beenie Man, Three Other Anti-Gay Singers please sign your postings using "~~~~"

thanks for these links. to quote from the first (article from The Guardian):

Few can agree on the source of such homophobia. But most agree the church plays a crucial role. "Evangelical Christianity is very strong, and there is a prudishness and hypocrisy that comes with that," said a representative of J-FLAG. "They ignore the part that says don't have sex out of wedlock and focus on gays."

Others claim the sheer geographical size of islands in the Caribbean makes them more socially conservative. "So long as you are stuck living close to your family then you never really get the space to make the kind of choices about your life that will challenge the values and practices you've been brought up with," said Erin Greene, a member of the Rainbow Alliance of the nearby Bahamas.

Rastafarianism is not mentioned as a possible source.

also, please explain how the sentence Homosexuality is seen as sinful and decadent, and so homophobia is found in a lot of Reggae songs matches the fact that homophobic lyrics are far more frequent in Dancehall than in Roots reggae, while the latter is more dominated by Rastafari imagery and ideology.

I'm all for exposing the downsides of the Rasta ideology in this article, too, but I would prefer to have a reliable source establishing such a causal connection before we state it in the article. regards, High on a tree 21:56, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

oh, and a reference for Queer-bashing is celebrated by some Rastafarians please. the links posted above contain none. Neither do the recent reports by (German) Amnesty International about homophobic murders in Jamaica make any reference to Rastafarianism. regards, High on a tree 22:11, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ijahman Levi was a significant rasta reggae ideologist, and in one of hia early albums the back cover quoted some old testament verses condemning homosexuality. Clearly an example of Rasta homophobia in reggae. Can't remember which record or which quote and my records are 6000 miles away, but I will do my best to get more information.Squiquifox 04:10, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Bob Marley was Rastafarian.

Statistics

"There were about 1,000,000 Rastafarians world-wide in 2000. An estimated sixty percent of Jamaicans identify themselves as Rastafarians." But in Jamaica there were living 2.5 million people in 2000. So something's not correct here. Guaka 11:45, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)

"There are perhaps as many as 100,000 [one hundred thousand] Rastafarians in Jamaica" (from Lonely Planet Jamaica's rather extensive and reliable "Rastafarianism" chapter). The Lonely Planet website says ...the island's percentage of Rastafarians stands at just over 10 percent.

and from Demographics of Jamaica: Religions: Protestant 61.3%, Roman Catholic 4%, other, including Rastafarianism 34.7% - in other words, the number must be far below 30%, not 60% (these figures seem to be from the CIA world factbook)

here evil Babylon (in form of the U.S. Library of Congress) is quoted as Rastafarians constituted roughly 5 percent of the population [in the 1980s], which roughly matches the first Lonely Planet figure.

here Reuters says About 5 percent of the population are Rastafarians. quoting Source: Europa World Book 2003; NI World Guide 2003/2004

I will change the figure in the article to "about five to ten percent". More information is welcome. regards, High on a tree 21:56, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Rastafarianism or Rastafari?

I have been told that it is more strictly correct to call the Rastafarian religion "Rastafari", instead of "Rastafarianism". Any thoughts on the matter? (Rastafari currently redirects to Haile Selassie.) --Suitov 13:29, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have only ever read it "Rastafarianism" I recently reverted some edits on this page (probably by an anon) that changed all the words "Rastafarianism" to "Rastafari". The reason why I reverted the edits and why Rastafari redirects to Haile Selassie III is because Rastafari or more accurately "Ras Tafari" was the name of Haile Selassie III before he was crowned Emperor. Ras was his first name and Tafari was his last name. I have never met any Rastafaris I am just a student of religions (technically nuclear engineering) so I don't know what they like to be called these days. --metta, The Sunborn ☸ 14:39, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I was under the impression Rastafari is a more correct (or more commonly used by insiders) term for Rastafarian or Rastafarians. AFAIK, the religion itself is usually called Rastafarianism. Rastafari should be a disambig page, then, I think, since it could point to Rastafarianism or Haile Selassie. But I could be wrong (ordinarily, I would see what religioustolerance.org uses, but last time I checked, they had nothing on the subject, which is unusual for them) Tuf-Kat 16:45, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

What rastas don't like about rastafarianism is the ism. To them the world is too full of isms, and all religious sects are just more isms. Rastas don't see Rastafari as another ism, but as something radically different. Hugh Mundell and Prince Lincoln Thompson in Mecanical devices from his Natural wild album both rail against various isms. Gone dung says Prince Lincoln about isms. So there is no doubt that ideologically Rastas do not like the word Rastafarianism. Squiquifox 04:29, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Proposed name change

I would like to see the article changed to Rastafarians or Rastafari, Rastafarianism is a terrible name.--Squiquifox 18:48, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think you're right. I was surprised to find the article under this title really. I suppose it isn't really a big thing, but common courtesy suggests the title shouldn't be one that adherents have a legitimate objection to. The only problems I envisage are,

• 1) Making sure we don't lose the edit history of the existing article. I think the history can be moved, but I'm not sure. Does anyone know?
• 2) Working out what exactly to move it to. Rastafari itself is a disambig page, quite rightly since it could refer to Haile Selassie or to the religious/social movement. I suppose that means putting this page at something like Rastafari (religion) or, my preference, Rastafari (movement).

While we're at it, I suggest we create a policy page Wikipedia:Too much 'ism' and 'schism' to help people get along. I'm joking, but it would be fun, eh? Mattley 15:31, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Adherents to the Church of Christ may believe themselves to be the only true Christians, but that doesn't mean we disambiguate at Christianity. This move (i) asserts a Rasta POV in the most visible area of the article: its title, (ii) subjects the page to unnecessary disambiguation, and (iii) violates our naming conventions, which, for better of for worse, prescribe titling under the common names of things. Bring your proposal to WP:RM if you like, but I advise you not to act without clear consensus. ADH (t&m) 02:41, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the idea that anyone intends acting without clear consensus. This is a tentative proposal, as I think the above contributions make clear. Leaving that aside, you raise some interesting points, some better than others. The Church of Christ example is hardly germane. Aside from having to do with religion it is a completely different situation. A more relevant example might be mormon and Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. As for the unnecessary disambiguation, well that already exists. A lot of people with a more than a passing interest in the subject will, I suspect, type in Rastafari and have to go through that page. That isn't to say it must move, but you know, rastafari is a real term that people really use, so we're stuck with the problem of disambiguation whatever we do.

The other two points, on the naming conventions and the assertion of a rasta POV in the title are more inclined to make me think again. Whether or not it really does assert a rasta POV in any meaningful sense could probably be disputed, but that is something to be reflected on. Mattley 11:51, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I never suggested that anyone would act without clear consensus, but I've seen enough people jump the gun on similar moves (only to later have them reversed after a lengthy and often pointless WP:RM process, the redirect then having an edit history) to know that preemptive advice is certainly prudent. The disambiguation scenario already exists, yes, but only for certain cases, whereas it's proposed that it be disambiguated for all cases. "Rastafarianism" is the common, neutral term, and the one more likely to be referenced in article text—that's justification enough for me. ADH (t&m) 12:34, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

The current title will put off rastafarians and people who support rastafari coming to read the site as a source of information, and then becoming wiki editors and adding some much needed information to this article. So we need these people to make a good quality article. What do you think would happen if the articles on Christianity and Islam had pieces in the article that the believers of said religions would find so offensive that they would be put off either reading or editing said article and possibly anything else. It is the believers in Christianity and Islam who can add much rich material in a neutral way to their articles. We must not exclude rastafarians from this article, or any other. We could do with some knowledgeable help in the reggae section, and this title does not help there either. So I agree, the title is not NPOV, it is anti rastafarian. This in the title itself is a disaster. i think the consensus is in favour of changing the title. I would like to call it Rastafari (religion), and redirect rastafarian and rastafarianism to it but leaving open the disambiguation page. I would like to do it quickly, and if it isn't done quickly I would like to NPOV the article. Until this issue is sorted i have removed the following point of clarification. The proper name of the faith that worships Haile Selassie I is "Rastafari." Referring to it as "Rastafarianism" is like calling Buddhism "Buddhistism." Added by User:67.41.144.251. I take this as another vote in favour. --Squiquifox 01:09, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC) I have put a neutrality notice on this article because I think Rastafarianism is not NPOVv until this issue is resolved. --Squiquifox 19:57, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC) To quote,"The salient point is that one side—who cares enough to be making the point—thinks that the article says something that other people would want to disagree with." People clearly want to disagree with this title, which again is clearly a controversial one --Squiquifox 20:13, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

some suggestions and queries

There are quite a few terms from rasta-oriented reggae that aren't listed here or at Roots rock reggae and Rastafarian music. I'm thinking in particular of Natty Dread, Dread and Dreadlocks for Rastafarian and Baldhead for non-believer. Also ganja-related terms like lambsbread, chalice and many more that I haven't been able to decipher from records. Plus usages like I-man. Don't know if this is the place for it, but it would be useful if reggae newbies had somewhere they could find this out. It took me forever to work out that Natty Dread wasn't an actual person. I thought he was some religious teacher or something. Perhaps a reggae glossary is needed. Also, I thought this page might benefit from a clearer explanation of where the name Jah for God derives from. Isn't is Psalm 68? It's the one with 'Ethiopia shall stretch out her hands to the LORD' in it as well I think. I was under the impression that it was pretty important. I won't make any changes myself because I'm not knowledgeable enough to risk offending someone's sensibilities, but thought I'd offer a few suggestions. While i'm here, where does the oft-repeated lyric 'Jah is I light and I salvation, I shall not fear...of whom shall I be afraid' derive from? And what is Johnny Clarke singing in Top Ranking that sounds like 'All friars under manners'?

Cheers Mattley 13:47, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That lyric, which most notably occurs in Lee "Scratch" Perry's "Dreadlocks in Moonlight," is from the Bible (Or the Book of Life, if you're I and I), Psalm 27:1: "The Lord is my light and my salvation- who shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life- Of whom shall I be afraid?"

Also, to address another issue, it isn't correct to call Rastafari Rastafarianism, because Rastas use the words "isms and schisms" to denote the religious seperation of Bablyon, whereas Rastafari is a 'whole' religion, insofar as the concept of I and I and the brotherhood of man is concerned. In most cases that I am aware of, Rastas prefer to be known as Rastafari or simply "I," as their religion is outside of Babylon and not subject to the "isms and schisms" as such. I'm about 95% sure of this, but perhaps it differs among different Rastas and groups of Rastas... So, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The user above me is totally totally correct in asserting that we need a Rasta glossary, as most Reggae/Dub/Ragga etc. speaks almost an entirely different dialect, with different grammar and conjunctions and even curse words and such, not simply a few slang and religious words with an accent. There is a good one available online, of which I at this moment cannot remember the URL...

Do not confuse Jamaican Patois ("Creole"), which is a language spoken by most Jamaicans, with Rasta expressions. There is an entry under 'Jamaican English'.

Changing doctrine section

I would like to make radical changes to this section. While the Holy Piby was one of many sources for the development of Rastafarian doctrine in the early thirties the book deserves no more than a small mention. I would use Joseph Owen's book Dread, The Rastafarians of Jamaica as a primary source. Unlike this section as it is the book expounds ideas that match the rastafarian beliefs as expressed in reggae music. I think reggae music must be seen as the richest source of information about rasta doctrine that we have. The Owens unlocks many of the keys to Rasta doctrine, whereas the currenty article does not even penetrate the surface, and appears to have been written by people who do not know what rastafarian doctrine is.--Squiquifox 01:00, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

removals

I removed the speculative sentences in the history section about marijuana smoking originating at Pinnacle and that Haile Selassie rejected Rastafari. There is no evidence to support the former, only that marijuana use did already exist. There is controversy around what Selassie thought of the rastas, and various contradictory reports, which the sentence ignored, thus being NPOV. how come obscure Walter Rodney gets a paragraph and immensely important Bob Marley gets nothing. This is plain bad, i.e. doesn't reflect the reality of the history of Rastafari. The problem with this article is it is mostly a rewrite from one particular source, and not a good one, I think --Squiquifox 20:42, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Primary sources

I have included songs of Lincoln Thompson to explain how the reastas see immortality. I think we should not only rely on secondary sources (academic studies) in this article. There is a vast quantity of available primary source material in rastafarian reggae songs to help us understand this religion, and I definitely see it as legitimate to use the lyrics in helping to explain difficult or poorly understand beliefs such as physical immortality. --Squiquifox 21:58, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have also added a link to open the weekly radio show Totally reggae. Almost all the music played is of a rastafarian orientation, including much current music, and is an invaluable primary source tool for those wanting to study rastafarian beliefs. Squiquifox 22:57, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Why do you feel that we should avoid academic studies in writing this article? It's an encyclopedia, and while the Rastafari themselves may not believe in objective, academic study of their faith (few religions like that kind of thing, actually), that doesn't mean that we should eschew those sources too. --Improv 18:01, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't think nor did I say we should not rely on academic sources, but that we should not rely only on secondary sources. --Squiquifox 20:24, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Avoiding codespeak

Hey, I removed the use of the term Babylon and did some other cleanups on the article. While I feel that it is in some circumstances ok to use custom terms in an article (e.g. kosher in articles on food), it shouldn't be done without good reason, especially when there's a decent way of saying what it is to be said without said custom words. The article actually needs some work to keep it from feeling like a propoganda piece for Rastafari.. --Improv 17:48, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It is very important to give this article a NPOV. Sometimes an author will unconsciously bring in their own biases. I have seen similar arguments over Margaret Thatcher and Elizabeth II. I believe content POV should be solved by adding and not taking away. Style POV can be corrected without affecting content. This article needs to explain rastafarian doctrine in as coherent a manner as possible. This is a very complicated thing to do, especially as Rasta doctrine tends to come from and held by people with limited or no education, and therefore tends to come across as largely incoherent, particularly in an academic setting. I imagine religions like mormonism are more directed to educated people, while Buddhism, Christianity, Islam etc have highly educated scholars, making these other religions possibly easier to write than is Rastafarianism. Yet we need to take on the challenge of explaining this religious force in a wiki way. If I have pro-rasta sympathies this means I want to see a really high quality Rastafari site. I do not want it to be a vehicle for rasta propaganda. I guess there can be a fine line between explanation and propaganda, but this is a line we walk as wiki editors, especially taking on problematic pages such as Rastafarianism. If anyone has any way my new paragraphs on schisms, immortality, the bible, Amharic etc,please add material from a different perspective. I will be extra careful in not trying to bring a pro rasta bias into what I write. I am not even remotely a Rasta, but am fascinated by it as a cultural phenomenon, and have been for 25 years. --Squiquifox 21:23, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)