Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Raphaël Onana

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Concerns on notability exist with almost all parties in the discussion, yet a case is made that based on his record, we should really be able to presume notability. There is no consensus for that either, but, given the problem of systematic bias, it is a reasonable case. All in all there isn't a solid consensus either way. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 09:16, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Raphaël Onana

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Contents is a translation of a French book, meaning that it's probably copyrighted. Furthermore, it is written by an involved person. See the author's comments on my talk page. Also, I'm not sure of notability. Jhschreurs (talk) 08:57, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

External links

[1] The book of Raphaël Onana in french.User talk:Warinhari

No copyrighted ! Check it ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warinhari (talk • contribs) 09:26, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can you look in the picture of Raphaël Onana ? In reality he's got a lot of awards ! This article is being considered for deletion ????? I don't agree because it is not a children's story! Check it to the [2] ! contribs) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warinhari (talk • contribs) 09:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do you know a lot of heroes of Free French Forces ? To develop the Wikipedia in english, there's very very few cameroonians heroes ! Raphaël Onana is a perfect example ! If you delete the page of Raphaël Onana, I could believe a racist problem ! I don't see the reason to delete this nice page with the scarcity of Cameroonians Blacks heroes of world war II ! This character is not invented, it's a true story. So why to delete ? It's stupid. User talk:Warinhari —Preceding undated comment added 11:19, 5 February 2012 (UTC).[reply]

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[3] The real story of Raphaël Onana in french.
[4] The awards of Raphaël Onana. Contact them.
Raphaël Onana is the father of ten children Aggripine, Casimir, Etienne, Françoise, Jeanne, Lazare-Ékongo, Marie-Solange, Nathalie, Patrice and Zobo-Ostomac, they said me the story.
Contact the association "Unions fraternelles des anciens combattants d'expression Française".

PLEASE DON'T DELETE !!!! IT IS NOT A DANGEROUS PAGE BUT A MEMORY PAGE !!!!.............. User talk:Warinhari

Undecided. Content suggests that the subject should be notable, but there are valid concerns.

1. if the article is really a direct translation of the book used as its source, this is a copyright violation. The book *is* under copyright, whatever Warinhari says about it (although as a relative of its author we must consider the possibility he has a license to use its content). Assuming there is no license, the writing here must be original.

2. The book is an autobiography, and is therefore not an ideal source, as we require information from secondary sources in most cases (the book is a primary source). Warinhari, do you have any other books, newspaper articles, or other published sources you can use as sources for the article? JulesH (talk) 14:09, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:18, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:18, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:19, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The brand of the book of Raphaël Onana "Un homme blindé à Bir-Hakeim" is....you can see this page : [5] but there 's no english page for you ! Sorry !

His co-author, Patrice Etoundi-M'Balla [6], is a actually a journalist chronicles "Le Jour"[7] For example to Marcel Pagnol, he write HIS autobiography TOO same Raphaël Onana !!! If you delete the Raphaël Onana page, you must delete the Marcel Pagnol page or the Richard Wright (author) page, or others autobiographies !! No, no, no !??

In Cameroon, it is not a rich country... So the african writers with his more 3 or 10 books, is very very rare ! I think wikipedia should be less categorical about African writers who have do the World War II. A little respect for our heroes would be good !! Please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warinhari (talk • contribs) 21:21, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

User talk:Warinhari

~~Delete~~ Strong Delete and userfy; a quick search does not find sufficient reliable sources that would support notability via WP:BIO. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 22:53, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'M VERY ANGRY ! You are the draws ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warinhari (talk • contribs) 16:50, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:AVOIDYOU & WP:EQ

My reason for deletion has to do with the fact that I am unable to find significant references in third party reliable sources to indicate the subject of this article is notable per WP:BIO or WP:GNG. Perhaps this article can be userfyied if you believe that it can be resurrected one day. There is no shame in it, I had to do it myself with an article that had significant coverage from multiple reliable sources once.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 02:54, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Highly decorated, but unclear how many of these awards are for gallantry and how many for distinguished service, as most French military decorations can be awarded for either. If they were all for gallantry then I'd say keep, if for distinguisnhed service then probably delete, as many long-service NCOs have decorations for distinguished service. The fact he's Cameroonian is irrelevant unless he was the most highly-decorated Cameroonian soldier in French service, in which case he is notable. Whatever we decide, it's an appallingly-written article and needs a serious copyedit. -- Necrothesp (talk) 23:39, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Battle of Bir Hakeim finished in the 11th June 1942. So Raphaël has sacrificed his leg to win the battle, and you want to delete his page because he did not do much ? Would you like I cut your leg same Raphaël ? Raphaël was not a french before 1951 but a Cameroonian ! it happened things ! Raphaël is highly decorated, yes, you can call the Palais de la Légion d'Honneur or [8] to check ! User talk:Warinhari —Preceding undated comment added 16:27, 7 February 2012 (UTC).[reply]

You need to calm down Warinhari. This is an encyclopaedia, not a memorial. Not every soldier who's been wounded or decorated is notable in encyclopaedic terms. We need to establish whether this man was significant enough to have an article on Wikipedia, not whether he was a worthy individual, which he clearly was. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:50, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I know how Charles De Gaulle was an Anglophobia, but it is not the reason to delete the page of Raphaël Onana who is a writer for one book like per example Richard Wright. You lack respect of MY grandfather because he's a vulgar Black African ? Raphaël is a important character only in Cameroon ! And In Cameroon, at Bamenda and at Buea, they speak and write english like you ! So the camerounian who use english in the north-west can read the Raphaël Onana page ! I could not calm down ! User talk:Warinhari —Preceding undated comment added 17:11, 7 February 2012 (UTC).[reply]

Ah, the racist card. You cannot accuse people of racism because they oppose the inclusion of an article on an African person. Africans have no more or less right to have articles about them than anyone else. The other editors who have posted comments here are being objective, not racist. You, however, are being subjective. He's your grandfather, so you think he's worthy of an article. Others have questioned that assumption. This isn't on racist grounds, but on the same grounds of notability applied to any other article. -- Necrothesp (talk) 19:01, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And so what ? User talk:Warinhari —Preceding undated comment added 20:03, 8 February 2012 (UTC).[reply]

How we, as an editing community, determine if someone is notable is clearly spelled out in WP:GNG, and in this case WP:BIO is relevant. The criteria have to be meet by looking at references from reliable sources. No where within GNG or BIO is the race, ethnicity, or where the subject was born (or originated) a factor in determining notability.

If there are third party reliable sources, in any language, that can be provided to support that the subject of the article is notable per GNG, BIO, or WP:SOLDIER please let us know. Otherwise the article will be deleted from the mainspace, and if it the wish of the primary editor, it can be userfied.

If an editor is related to the subject of this article, there maybe conflict of interest issues that need to be looked into.

Additionally please see WP:EQ again, and remember to remain civil. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 02:50, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, although if what is in the article is correct, the subject of this article maybe notable per WP:SOLDIER, I cannot find a third party source verifying the awarding of the Legion of Honor to the subject. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 03:02, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand... You want sources , you have enough sources ! You've got 5 ! I think you can find sources mainly in this [9] , the brand book of Raphaël Onana.

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

[10] The real story of Raphaël Onana in french.
[11] The awards of Raphaël Onana. Contact them.
Raphaël Onana is the father of ten children Aggripine, Casimir, Etienne, Françoise, Jeanne, Lazare-Ékongo, Marie-Solange, Nathalie, Patrice and Zobo-Ostomac, they said me the story.
Contact the association "Unions fraternelles des anciens combattants d'expression Française".
[12]

I can not insulted you, but I've scolded you... Because I know you're wrong ! Raphaël Onana was famous only in Cameroon therefore he's a important person between the world war II at 1996 FOR the Cameroon and not for to you and persons who speak English. User talk:Warinhari

What language I speak has no relevance to this discussion. One last time, and you have already been warned before, please stop attacking those who disagree with your opinion of your family member's notability.

Thanks for the links. The first link, a book coauthored by the subject of the article in question is not sufficient to meet notability requirements set forth in WP:AUTHOR. The second link does not appear to have an easily find-able listing of the subject of the article; furthermore, there have been past discussions of what awardings of the Legion of Honor create notability per WP:SOLDIER given its wide range of rewarding criteria. As for your third link it is to a publishing company; again, the subject of the article just because they are published doesn't automatically make one notable. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 16:53, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, we do not have five sources. We have one, an autobiography. That is not enough to establish notability, since self-authored sources are not generally regarded as reliable. He won the Légion d'honneur. Nobody is disputing that, but so did many, many thousands of other people. The Légion d'honneur by itself is not sufficient to establish notability, any more than decorations like the MBE or Military Cross would be in Britain. The fact his children told you his story is irrelevant: we only accept actual published sources as proof of notability (and not, as already stated, self-authored works or works published by those with a vested interest). He was a veteran. So what? So are many millions of others. And he was "famous in Cameroon". With the best will in the world, we only have your word for that, and no actual proof. None of these things are sufficient to establish notability. Your claim for his notability seems to come down to the fact that he was a decorated veteran and you say he's notable. This is not, I'm afraid, sufficient evidence. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:59, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article by Raphael Onana is interesting to read, is not it? Please take care of you uninteresting articles also. I ask simply you to keep my article everything as it does not disturb the public.User talk:Warinhari —Preceding undated comment added 16:28, 10 February 2012 (UTC).[reply]

See -> * [13] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warinhari (talk • contribs) 16:48, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have NOT invented in this article, I simply wrote all the facts noted in the Yellow Book of Raphael Onana. I have not made a cut and pasted from the book to wikipedia, I have summarized my way. User talk:Warinhari —Preceding undated comment added 16:59, 10 February 2012 (UTC). Warinhari (talk) 17:07, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I fail to see why you keep linking us to the webpage on the same book. We know it exists. We know he existed. Neither of these facts add up to proof of notability for this article. -- Necrothesp (talk) 19:31, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Neither of these facts add up to proof of notability for this article ??? You're not right. And the testimony of the deported Jews during world war II ??? Neither of These facts add up to proof of notability for this article too? The jews were simple civilians ! Raphaël Onana is a witness of the war, too! He's the only Cameroonian to express! Warinhari —Preceding undated comment added 20:08, 10 February 2012 (UTC).[reply]

His book is a straightforward testimony of the war, go read it yourself from start to finish! Warinhari (talk) 20:11, 10 February 2012 (UTC) You'll add that I took out the anti-Semite card? Warinhari (talk) 20:13, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:GNG & WP:BIO.

It is the opinion of two commenting editors that the subject of the article does not meet them.

Retorts have violated WP:CIVIL in the past, and new responses have not provided new references from reliable sources to indicate that the subject of the article meets notability per the GNG & BIO, therefore I change my recommendation to Strong Delete & Userfy. G'day! --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:45, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ah ? And so what ? talk

Delete. Despite good faith attempts to elicit the reasons why this decorated veteran should be considered more notable than any of the countless other decorated veterans in world history, the creator, who is related to Onana, has done nothing but continually point to an autobiography and claim that Onana is notable because he says he is. He has become increasingly aggressive, rude and incapable of courteously responding to any constructive criticism. Given this, the poor English of the article and the fact that no other sources can be found, I don't think we have any option but to delete without prejudice. Onana appears to have been a worthy gentleman and a good soldier, but I see no evidence that he is any more notable than any other decorated veteran of the French army. Given evidence that he is (e.g. his decorations were unusually high or he was the most highly decorated Cameroonian soldier in French service) then the article can be recreated. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:31, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You want to delete? It's very very stupid. Therefore, the testimony of the deported Jews are also to be deleted too ? If you think the english is bad in the Rapahël Onana page, so this article may require copy editing for grammar, style, cohesion, tone, or spelling. You can assist by editing it. Help me for that. The english is bad, but, you forgot i'm french and not an english... Je ne vous remercie pas du tout de votre charmant accueil en me proposant de supprimer cette page...! talk

May I suggest therefore you stick with the article on French Wikipedia! After all, I wouldn't attempt to write an article in French, a language with which I only have passing familiarity. This is something that continually mystifies me - why do people who do not write very good English insist on writing articles on English Wikipedia as well as (or instead of) the Wikipedia in their own native language? I have no idea why you keep mentioning the Jews. In what way are they relevant to an article about a French soldier? The point is not that we are discounting Onana's testimony, but that we don't feel he's notable enough for an article on Wikipedia. There is a world of difference. Just because someone writes their memoirs, even if they are published, it doesn't make them automatically notable. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:07, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Relisting comment: Despite the long discussion so far, this AfD will clearly benefit from some advice from editors who are fluent in both English and French, and can assess the French article and its accompanying sources.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Der yck C. 21:49, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

IAR Keep- My French has 25 years of rust on it, so I ran it through babelfish and compared simultaneously, so: 1) The fr. article has no references, just an external link to the book. 2) The book is autobiographical, but co-authored with a fr. notable Cameroon journalist 3) Highest award, but lowest level, multiple other French awards, none of which are awarded solely for valor 4) Officier de l'Ordre national du Cameroun, not Cameroon's Order of Valor, but we lack articles on both 5) Rank insufficient to independently meet WP:SOLDIER, but due to systemic historical bias of the period (not just France/Cameroon), although also short service due to amputation 6) Made a French citizen 7) "Raphaël was invited to the Élysée Palace by the French Republic president, Charles de Gaulle, in December 1962 in order to decorate Raphaël Onana for the National Order of the Legion of Honor and also other merits." Since quoted conversing, went, and personally awarded, likely meets WP:GNG, as coverage surely exists of this state function, even if only in record archives. 8) Co-authored a personal recollection of a notable period and battle. The article currently fails verification and independent sources, unless www.legiondhonneur.fr posts his awards online, our contacting them would be original research; if kept, could only be done under WP:IAR, taking the multiple high level awards, systemic biases, and likely offline references into account. Dru of Id (talk) 00:29, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

9) Elected president of the War Veterans of Cameroon. Dru of Id (talk) 00:37, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Userfy. The fact that the corresponding article on the French Wikipedia has existed for over 4 years at fr:Raphaël Onana is a good sign in favor of the subject's notability. On the other hand, this article has no sources other than the subject's own autobiography and no significant ones have been provided in this discussion, and the article needs improvement in terms of its translation from French. So let's take it out of the mainspace and allow it to be improved before bringing it back. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Lots of claims about this person, but no references whatsoever to back them up. As such, WP:BIO isn't met. The article on the French Wikipedia also isn't referenced, and I'm pretty sure that we have higher standards than they do anyway. Nick-D (talk) 07:52, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are severe, you, the British ... I'm tired of your criticism. You are doing exactly the same as policy makers to right hand drive of your car just to annoy foreigners .... In short, I think it's not nice to you. I reject totally the page of Raphael Onana removed, but you can delete unnecessary phrases and unproven. For the history of jews, it is just a comparison . you had not got it before? Warinhari (talk) 15:38, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please remember WP:CIVIL, you have been warned multiple times in the past, and I have added a warning on your talk page. Additional violations of CIVIL may lead to referral to RfC. I implore you to stop violating CIVIL so it does not reach that point. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:45, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Warinhari, please read WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, and WP:BATTLEGROUND (and also, regarding the "this is a memory page" comment above I just noticed, WP:NOTMEMORIAL). Your conduct here is not conducive to the collaborative building of an encyclopedia, and if it continues, you may very well be blocked from editing. Wikipedia, and its editors, are not personally out to get you or to dishonor your ancestors; we are here to establish a neutral, verifiable encyclopedia that uses reliable sources to cover notable topics; "The Truth" has to be verifiable to be included. Wikipedia operates on a basis of consensus of its users; based on the discussion above, the consensus of Wikipedia editors, based on Wikipedia's policies, appears, so far, to be that Raphaël Onana cannot be verified as being significantly notable to be included given the sources provided. This isn't a personal slight against him or you; it's simply the way it is. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:20, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - deletion contributes to systematic bias Because of our rules on ranks of military personnel deemed notable, it's difficult to usually consider non-commissioned officers for retention. However, if we delete this article, we are merely continuing our WP:Systemic Bias against African subjects. The history of the armies of Africa through the colonial period is written partially by the lives of its African NCOs, and to make sure we try to improve our coverage of African subjects, then I strongly believe we should be prepared to vary our strict MILPERS rules. However, the section on Onana's father is not notable, in my view. This is apart from Warinhari's conduct, for which he is rightly being counseled. Buckshot06 (talk) 23:27, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Notability per WP:SOLDIER, IMHO, would be difficult as the level of the Legion of Honor awarded is "Officer", if the image used in the article is accurate. In our discussions regarding applying SOLDIER to Legion of Honor recipients, there appeared to have formed a consensus that it was for the highest military awarding only. That being said, consensus can change, and there is an active discussion about this point, at this time. This topic can be revisited.

If such a discussion were to begin, perhaps this AfD can be placed on hold until there is confirmation that the old Consensus still stands, or if consensus has changed since March 2011.

For unless there is a change in consensus, I have so far not seen any significant tertiary reliable sources to believe the subject passes WP:GNG, WP:BIO, or WP:SOLDIER.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:57, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

RightCowLeftCoast, thanks for your comments. However those involved who are frequently referring to WP:SOLDIER and various other military guidelines appear to be missing the distinguishing argument of Dru of Id and I: this is a WP:Systemic Bias issue. We have vanishingly nothing on Africa on this encyclopedia compared to several of the other continents, and even more vanishingly nothing on the non-Western, non-colonial presence in Africa. Both Dru of Id and I are saying that this article deserves to stay to try to help remedy, in a very small way, this bias. This is the argument we are making, which does not hinge on the rules you are quoting - it refers to other factors. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:54, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

While I am completely opposed to systemic bias, I don't think we should apply notability criteria more favourably towards people from less-represented countries. Avoidance of systemic bias merely means we should apply the criteria equally and not delete articles because there is less documentary evidence, not that we should give people from these nations more preferential treatment. What we should ask is: Would we keep an article on a European NCO of the French army who had identical awards and service? I would say the answer to this question is almost certainly no. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:24, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I did nothing wrong....Warinhari (talk) 16:05, 16 February 2012 (UTC) ~ I want you to do me a partial deletion. Please. Warinhari (talk) 16:08, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.