Talk:Fraternities and sororities

Canadian Societies

Is this just a US institution, or has it crept across the border to Canada?

ManicParroT 02:10, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

To my knowledge, many US fraternities and sororities have established chapters at Canadian schools as well, hence the North-American Interfraternity Conference, formerly the "National". I have no idea how successful these chapters are, though. As far as I know, no "national" (more than one chapter) fraternity has ever come out of Canada. Not positive, though. Hope this helps! --SuperNova |T|C| 04:00, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

In my experience, fraternities are rare and not particularly popular in Canada. Certain universities and colleges have similar organizations, but they are more in the way of student service clubs than a true American-style fraternity.

Wikify

This page reads pretty poorly, as if it WERE actually written by a drunken frat boy. I don't care enough about this topic to edit it, but it should be cleaned up.

Sorting

How is that list sorted? It looks like it's mostly "alphabetical, by the English (American) spelling of the Greek letter", but Omega is at the end (as in the actual Greek alphabet).

• I'd suggest either "alphabetical, by the English spelling of the Greek letter", or "alphabetical, by Greek letter (with non-Greek-lettered names at the start, on their own)". Either way, consistency is good.

• I'm torn on the issue. Personally, I prefer the Greek order, but I also know the Greek alphabet. I wouldn't want to confuse someone who doesn't. On the other hand, it could be a teachable moment for that person, and it is consistent with how most fraternity-associated people would display it. I suppose non-Greek letter houses (Farmhouse, Acacia, etc.) would be listed last, by their English spelling? Or maybe first because there's so few of them? BeakerK44 01:06, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I love your expression "teachable moment" Adambisset 14:14, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Other

Is "Kappa Alpha Psiaka" a typo?

Tom Wolfe's "A Man in Full" has characters who were in Omega Zeta Zeta at Morehouse. I don't actually know if this is a fictional fraternity or not -- I'd guess it's fictional, since Google doesn't turn up anything. 2 of the 5 fraternities listed on the Morehouse College webpage (Kappa Alpha Phi and Iota Phi Theta) aren't listed here, either.

So why the Greek letter thing, anyway?

The article mentions the first fraternity to have a greek letter name, but it fails to explain why, why the idea quickly took on across the United States to the almost complete exclusion of any other form of name, and whether the names have any significance or if they're just random letters. —Morven 20:36, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

• I can say it's probably a safe bet that all of the fraternities and sororities names do have significance but most, if not all, keep the significance of their name as part of their ritual. Thus, what looks like random letters to most people, hold reminders or a meaning to the members. Dhuss 16:42, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• The group's letters usually come the first letters of the group's motto. Delta Upsilon, for example, comes from Dikaia Upotheke, the english translation being "Justice our Foundation." Almost all others follow that or a similar pattern.

• • I've always wondered how the fraternities/sororities choose their names. Until I read your explanation, they have all seemed entirely random. But what if the initials of the motto are already in use? — JIP | Talk 06:33, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• • • Then you need to pick another motto. Most groups starting out check the Internet and Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities to see if there is a conflict. a conflict will cause confusion and limit growth. Also, many of the GLOs have trademarks on their Greek Letter Combination. Given that there are over 17,000 possible three letter combinations it isn't viewed as a restraint.Naraht 07:01, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Phi Gamma Delta or Fiji

It has been three times that I have reverted an anon, 68.223.217.139. He (I am assuming he is a member of the fraternity), keeps changinging "Phi Gamma Delta" back to "Fiji" because some rule they have. The article on the fraternity is called "Phi Gamma Delta" they are refered to "Phi Gamma Delta" in all the material I have seen, their website calles them "Phi Gamma Delta", the North American Interfraternity Conference calles them "Phi Gamma Delta". There is no reason why we should call them "Fiji". If the reverting of my reverts continues I will consider it vandalism and seek banning or protection. --The Sunborn

I now understand the dispute to be about three greek letters. I can't see how someone can say that we as an encyclopedia can't use three greek letters in a row. The only way that could be true is if it were a trademark. Even if it were a trademark, we are alowed to report on it as long as there is no dilution. Copyrights can't control three Greek letters. If the anon doesn't talk here, I will ask for a protection of the page.---The Sunborn

Sunborn, I understand your concern about this. Myself, I am a brother of Acacia, but Fiji considers it a matter of respect that they not be referred to by their greek letters by anyone other than themselves. I will contact their national fraternity to ask their stance on it and ask that we honor that stance. — ^neoEinstein 00:32, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

I asked Phi Gamma Delta's national about this topic. Though it is the community's decision how to handle this, here is their feeling on the topic:

^neoEinstein,

Thanks for asking about our Greek letters. I am somewhat amused that the use of our letters has engendered an edit war as you describe it; at the same time, as a compulsive editor myself, I appreciate this attention to detail.

Our name and nickname as displayed on our fraternity page at wikipedia.org are okay as shown currently. Our reference for that type of medium, as with IFC brochures, etc., is to spell out the name of the Fraternity followed by Fiji in parentheses so that those who know us only as one or the other can make the connection.

The display of our Greek letters as currently shown in the list on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternities_and_sororities does not conform with our guidelines. Our reference is to be listed as: Fiji - Phi Gamma Delta.

It's a purple thing...

Bill

Bill Martin

Executive Director

The Fraternity of Phi Gamma Delta

(859) 255-1848

(859) 253-0779 fax

bmartin@phigam.org

I think this might merit additional discussion before any actual changes are made. — ^neoEinstein 23:52, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

I understand the situation with Phi Gamma Delta, and as a brother, I come to this site every once in a while to see exactly how Fiji is listed. Actually I edited the page yesterday (Apr 16, 2005) to reflect what should be the correct entry for Phi Gamma Delta. I personally don't care if it's Phi Gamma Delta (written in English) or Fiji (a nickname we use), but please, out of respect for the fraternity, do not use the Greek letters. The letters may be used in seven *permanent* places, but an online encyclopedia is not one of them. Take a look at the Phigam website and you'll see no occurrences of the Greek letters (even on their OWN website!!). Refer to the Fiji wikipedia article and there you'll find the following passage:

"Phi Gamma Delta distinguishes itself by limiting the use of its Greek letters to seven specific places. The Greek letters representing Phi Gamma Delta are strictly barred by the fraternity from being written outside of a handful of designated places. More commonly, the term Phi Gam or Fiji is used when referring to the fraternity outside of these specific locations."

--Rpckvv 14:54, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Help us clarify, what would those seven "permanent" places be?? ER

Precident states from several places on wikipedia that we don't care what a particular organization feels for repecting of symbols. For instance, the baha'i religion considers it a sin to view the founder's picture outside of a pilgramage. Yet we maintain a picture in full view on wikipedia. Unless copyrights can be exercicsed, we probably won't remove anything potentially informative. Just because you feel a certain way about a few greek letters doen't make you special in the eyes of wikipedia. Still only, The Sunborn

Agreed. However, the Baha'i precedent doesn't quite fit, because they would have been satisfied only by an actual loss of information (completely unacceptable), whereas this involves the transliteration of three greek letters, which is trivial to invert. I wonder if there's a 'forbidden spelling' precedent elsewhere in WP? I wouldn't be surprised if there were, although I've no idea which way it would have been resolved. Personally, I'd consider any demand for information to be removed to be utterly unacceptable, but this doesn't strike me as such a request. In this case, I'd go for whatever everyone else does. After all, if everyone refers to them using Latin letters rather than Greek letters, we should, too. What do newspapers use? How about college websites about fraternities?) If they use Greek letters, then we will (because they're known by the Greek letters, despite whatever the National Office wants), if not, we won't (because everyone knows them as Fiji). jdb ❋ (talk) 04:24, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

While I must apologize to Sunborn if it really was a fellow Phi Gam who threatened him, I must ask that the actuall Greek letters for "Phi Gamma Delta" not be reprinted on this site. It may sound silly to non-Fijis, but we would appreciate it if our Greek letters would not be printed on a website as we have a clear set of guidelines for how they can be listed. It is in no way legally-binding of course, but I'm sure that I can speak for all my graduate and undergraduate brothers that we would appreciate it if the letters were not displayed on this page. While it may sound trivial to non-brothers, it is not trivial to us. As a result, please keep the Phi Gamma Delta, Fiji, Phi Gam (however you want to call it) line as it is. Thank you. - RPH, 5/7/05

There is one thing that must be done then. We must seek wikipedia dispute resolution. The community must decide if the actual greek letters of a fraternity constitutes useful information. If it is decided that it is not useful, all greek letters of all fraternitites will be removed, if they are considered useful, all fraternities must have their letters displayed. -- The Sunborn

I suppose that makes sense, but I would like to point out that you are taking a far too simplified stance in your argument. I believe that the other fraternities should have their actual Greek letters listed on the page because that is a very accurate way to identify them by just glancing at their houses. As best as I know, Phi Gamma Delta is the only Greek fraternity that does not identify itself by use of Greek letters. Whereas just about every single other fraternity displays their letters on their actual house, there isn't a single Fiji in North America that actually does that. Instead of relying on the actual Greek letters to identify our houses, our fraternity uses the Romanized spelling of "Phi Gamma Delta" or just "Fiji" instead. To take away the Greek letters from all the other lines would make little to no sense as it would automatically take away the one of the best ways to identify them. At the same time, keeping the same letters off the Fiji line does make sense, as having such information gives no additional information to those who wish to identify our fraternity. In addition, I would like to point out that having the Greek letters for "Phi Gamma Delta" is not actually useful information as Fiji brothers don't identify themselves by those letters, unlike other fraternities. It would be much more useful if, instead of stating the Greek letters for Phi Gamma Delta, there is a mention instead that our fraternity does not use the actual Greek letters for identification and instead goes by the term "Fiji." - RPH, 5/8/05

Sounds reasonable to me -- we should go with what people recognize. However, our criterion is not how Phi Gamma Delta members refer to themselves, but how other people (since the vast, vast majority of people reading the Fraternities article will not be members) refer to Phi Gamma Delta. If college guides (Princeton Review and the like) and similar materials say 'Fiji', WP should follow suit, if they use greek letters, WP should use greek letters. jdb ❋ (talk) 02:04, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Although in my mind there is no actual legal restriction to the use of the letters, and because I think consistency in entries for each seperate fraternity is essential, I think there may be a way of getting around this issue. Maybe a member of Phi Gamma Delta could clarify if their use of the name "Fiji" is approaching the way "Acacia" is used by that fraternity - my thought here is that publicly, the Greek letters Phi, Gamma and Delta are not considered the name of the fraternity, in the same way that the Latin letters K and S are not the name of the Kappa Sigma fraternity. To use the Greek letters Phi, Gamma and Delta on the page would be unnecessary if this is not their name, as they see it, at this point in their history. I will say though that the fraternity, if they do consider the Greek letters to be their name, and use them as such in specific circumstances, does not have any right to insist that the name be written differently on Wikipedia - their name is publicly known and if it is their name, it should be used when it is the most appropriate way of referring to the fraternity. QuinnHK 23:22, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Who cares if you misspell some random clique's name, this is ridiculous. - DeMetto

DeMetto, please do not contribute to this discussion unless you have something constructive to say. As for the debate at hand, I think Fiji or FIJI is the most appropriate terminology. I know in most situations on my campus when Greek letters are used, the Latin letters FIJI represent Phi Gamma Delta. (For example, one might have a t-shirt that said "Sponsored by ATΩ, ΣN, and FIJI".) If I asked non-FIJIs, Greek or non-Greek, on my campus where the "Phi Gamma Delta house" was, I guarantee I'd get many, many fewer responses than if I'd asked for FIJI. Many people do wonder about the name thing, so it's worth noting, but I think that the sensible, non-confrontational, and ultimately most accurate answer is to go with FIJI rather than the Greek letters. The only reason not to would be to make it look like the other Greek groups, but as I said, they are notable in being an exception. --SuperNova |T|C| 04:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I just wonder, have any of these [Expurgated the written Greek letters Phi Gamma Delta per Fiji's practice -Citizen Sunshine 04:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC)] people asked the inhabitants of Fiji for permission to use the name? The Real Walrus 19:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know. Did you ask any O. rosmarus? ;-) --SuperNova |T|C| 06:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't know any Fijians. The Real Walrus 14:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Legal threats

It seems we have a situation of this page and on Phi Gamma Delta. One or more users (one calling himself Diddy on a talk page message addressed to me) are suppressing the Greek spelling of that fraternity's name, with legal threats to boot. I am now blocking that IP (65.10.38.22) for vandalising Sunborn's userpage and making legal threats in edits (on this page) and on my userpage. Other IPs will face banning if they manipulate this (and related) page(s) without respect for the Wikipedia editing process. JFW | T@lk 20:11, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

More needed

Though professional and honorary organizations are mentioned, there is no other information about them.

BryanD 01:43, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree. There are at least four types of undergraduate/college fraternity - social, academic, service and professional. Certainly social fraternities are most common, but the others deserve a more extensive mention.

Hazing

Do we have sources for the returning G.I.s=>frat hazing connection? jdb ❋ (talk) 04:04, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Split out the Fictional Fraternities & Sororities?

I have quite a bit of information of Fictional Fraternities and Sororities and the Movies/TV/etc. that they come from that I'd like to load in, but that will take the overall page over 32K. As Fictional Fraternities and Sororities makes a well defined separate page, I'd like opinions on splitting it out to be its own page. I don't know how to propose this for votes, I'd appreciate advice on that as well.Naraht 2 July 2005 01:20 (UTC)

Go ahead and split them out, please... in fact, I think we should split out all of the lists. This article needs some work. - choster 22:15, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I have made the article Fictional fraternities and sororities.--Commander Keane 12:28, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I've finished moving the other lists into separate articles, all referenced under "Categories." - choster 01:17, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Non-Greek Fraternities and Sororities

What's the deal here? I have tried to add a localized Whittier College fraternity (one ouf or 9 fraternities and sororities) several times only to have some guy remove it as "link spam". This is ridiculous as The William Penn Society has a Wikipedia entry and is a legitimate 70 year old organization with enough of a reason to have an entry. The entry is NOT any sort of advertisement and is simply added as information.

Can we have some sort of moderator come in here on this?

Template

Alpha Phi Omega
ΑΦΩ
Founded	December 16, 1925 Lafayette College
Type	Service
Scope	National
Motto	Be a Leader, Be a Friend, Be of Service
Colors	Blue and Gold (Royal Blue and Old Glory Gold)
Symbol	Diamond (jewel) , Golden Eagle (bird), Oak (Tree)
Flower	Forget-me-not flower
Chapters	359 in the United States, ~150 in the Philippines, 20 Petitioning Groups
Cardinal Principles	Leadership, Friendship and Service
Headquarters	14901 E. 42nd St. Independence, Missouri USA
Website	http://www.apo.org

I think it's about time for us to get an Infobox for Greek organizations. Here's the prototype for one I set up on the Delta Upsilon page. Can someone with a little more editing experience set up a template? (I tried for thirty mins. before giving up) Palm_Dogg 20:37, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Already exists, check out Template:Infobox_Fraternity. See Alpha Phi Omega and Sigma Nu for current usage. It is currently being used by over a dozen groups.

Naraht 14:42, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

AWESOME! Another afternoon wasted. Thanks for pointing it out. Have replaced my template with the Infobox for any other interested parties. Palm_Dogg 19:19, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

No problem, always happy to help people waste afternoons. :) Naraht 20:00, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

National bias?

Is this article meant to be purely about the USA or is it just horribly lobsided? There's a list at the end for fraternities outside the US as sort of an afterthought, but that seems to be it. Are the terms fraternity and sorority typical for the US or has no-one bothered to write about the phenomenon outside the US? DirkvdM 10:28, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

• Fraternities in Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany are distinct from fraternities and sororities in Canada and the United States; they have separate histories and characteristics. I think they would be best treated with separate articles, but this will involve some refactoring which I do not have time to do myself. Perhaps information about the European organizations could be reformulated under the heading of "Student fraternity" ("sorority" being unfamiliar as few women's organizations exist at the European universities) and "Fraternities and sororities" focusing exclusively on the North American system, while retaining "Fraternity" as a disambiguation page for its multiple other meanings. Just a thought. - choster 16:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

They don't exist in the UK as far as I know. Probably some of the older universities have clubs and societies that are more exclusive but technically I think all university clubs and societies have open memberships. Also I'm not aware of any UK university club or society that has its own accomodation, or even their own building. Many universities in the UK will have a Student Union (local branch of the National Union of Students) and this or an equivalent students' body that is intended to represent all students at the university will be given the use of a building (including venue and bars) by the host institution for social events and some offices (often social support is also offered).

The organisational architecture of fraternities and sororities is quite different Europe and differs from country to country aswell. It could be usefull to at least note that this is so. The Dutch article discussing European fraternities in general and Dutch fraternities in specifics can be found at [1]. Djzoos, 18 August 2006

Campus Controversy

Is there a page covering the anti-fraternity backlash on many campuses? If not, we should probably add a section on it. Palm_Dogg 19:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

What country are you referring to? Compare the thread above (well, not much of a thread yet :) ). DirkvdM 07:23, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Well obviously the great state of Holland! :) Palm_Dogg 14:30, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Ehm, the state Holland (great or not) no longer exists. So did you have a historical section in mind? :) DirkvdM 13:34, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Social fraternities, at least, have been the subject of criticism for several decades now, often from specific interest groups, both on-campus and off-campus, as well as college/university administrators. The current situation at Colgate illustrates this conflict. Fraternities have been called inherently sexist, anachronistic, etc. A significant focus for the leaders of national fraternities over the past while has been finding a place (dare I say, legitimization) for the existence of their group. Unfortunately, I can't find much on this topic on the 'net on this topic in any one place, but rather, it's scattered all over. QuinnHK 23:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Social Chair

Can someone in the know comment on what to do with that article? I moved it from Risk Management Chairman because that seemed like a less common euphemism, but I'm not even sure it's a viable article. I'm still considering AFD'ing it. - Taxman ^Talk 21:25, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

This article is nearly useless as it describes functions and responsibilities that are not universal across all chapters and all campuses. - choster 23:56, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

History

The history section could use some more contemporary information - most of it seems to stop around 1900. Three major topics that I would like to see covered are (a) the response of fraternities and sororities to the civil rights movement of the 1950s (many chapters broke away from their national organizations over the issue of racial integration, for example, and several national African-American fraternities and sororities were started), (b) the movement to introduce coeducational fraternities and/or coeducational alternatives to fraternities and sororities primarily in the 1970s, and (c) the increased anti-hazing and anti-alcohol regulations that swept campuses beginning in the 1990s.--Kharker 16:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I would like to note the Pi Beta Phi was the first Fraternity for women. Created in 1867 before the word sorority was coined. They were from the same college as Kappa Kappa Gamma and should be noted for being pioneers among women in 19th century high eduation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.9.43.67 (talk • contribs) 18:54, May 14, 2006 (UTC)

If you check the history section currently, the I.C. Sorosis group is listed (along with the forerunners to ADPi and Phi Mu) as early women's societies, before the Greek letter names were introduced. If you don't feel that section is clear enough, I would encourage you to elaborate, remembering to hold a neutral point of view by respecting the contributions of the other groups listed there. If you're referring to the first paragraph, I'm not sure why only a few groups were chosen to represent "women's fraternities"; that's bothered me for awhile also, though I'm not sure what the best fix for that would be. Hope this clears things up, though. --SuperNova |T|C| 01:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I noticed a glaring mistake in the history section - In reference to Samuel Eells first intending to charter the NY Beta chapter of Sigma Phi at Hamilton. Samuel Eells instead formed Alpha Delta Phi in distaste in the unscrupolous recruiting activities of the existing two societies on campus. This information is verifiable in many sources of pledge education print material. Edw28 07:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Homosexuality and fraternities

The second paragraph of the Portrayals in Popular Culture section is a bit puzzling to me. It is carefully worded but it still seems like there's a neutrality issue. The idea that paddling is a homoerotic ritual - or even appears to be one - is a bit over-the-top IMHO. The whole paragraph doesn't sit right with me, and it doesn't afford anywhere to mention the fraternities that are specifically targeted to gay, lesbian, and bisexual members (ie, Delta Lambda Phi). -Etoile 17:28, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Split out Philippines?

Does anyone have any opinion as to whether the Philippines Fraternity and Sororities should be split out at this point? I'd do it in a heartbeat if I had any sort of information beyond simply the list. Naraht 12:15, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

• It needs a three-way split for the European, North American, and Philippine systems. I'd say European student fraternities are the more urgent to split out, as they are more dissimilar from the other two than they are with each other. What are your thoughts on the names "Student fraternities in Europe," (with suitable redirects), "Fraternities and sororities," and "Fraternities and sororities in the Philippines"? There is no tradition of sororities in Europe, and the most common reference in the English WP is likely to be to the Canadian and US fraternity system on account of size and media references if nothing else. I've been meaning to do this for months but have found time hard to come by.- choster 13:52, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Upon further research, there seem to be many articles about European fraternities, but they are not all adequately cross-linked: Corporation (university), Studentenverbindung, Nations at Swedish universities, Tuna (corporation), and articles about individual societies which may turn up such as Sakala (academic corporation). Corpo already redirects to Corporation (university). Currently student fraternities redirects to fraternities and sororities when it should probably redirect to Corporation (university), and the fraternity disambiguation article also needs expansion. -choster 20:54, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
    • In my opinion student fraternities should redirect to fraternities and sororities, but only because this is the English version of Wikipedia and the Corporations, other than those in the USA and Canada, are largely, but not entirely non-entirely in non-english speaking countries. Let me know how I can help with this. Naraht 13:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

• I'm splitting out the Fraternities and Sororities of the Philippines. Not there yet, working on it in User:Naraht/Fraternities and Sororities of the Philippines, will move when tablization is done. Naraht 17:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Philippines split out.

I'm finished moving all of the information on the Fraternities and Sororities of the Philippines to a page of that name. Comments and updates welcome. Naraht 18:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

• I moved it to Fraternities and sororities in the Philippines. Unfortunately, I haven't found much information at all about the origins and development of the system, other than it began during the U.S. colonial period.- choster 18:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Understand the uncapping of Sororities, but why the of -> in? Naraht 19:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

this article seems to be very against frats

why do wikipedia editors seem to resent people who just want to have responsble fun instead of wasting their time at crappy lectures given by proffessors who can't help but hide their hatred of bush? is that what my parents are paying good money for? for me to sit in a big smelly lecture hall with a bunch of druggies listening to some burt out hippy of "proffesor" rant about the "evils" of capitalism--—(Kepin)<sup--75.73.153.252 04:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)>RING THE LIBERTY BELL 00:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Please cite specifics and remain civil. --ElKevbo 01:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. I have found it impossible to let this one go. I am making a leap of logic in my assumption that the author's reference to "parents paying good money" indicates his or her status as a college student.

My suggestion would be for the author's parents to pony up some more money for a remedial English class, where he/she could learn about such things as capitalization, sentence structure and spelling.

While I will never claim to be anything resembling perfect or even pretty darned good, for that matter, I simply feel that if you are going to write, then at least make the effort to try to do it properly.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled life...

--Alcalde 15:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

whatever dude its a fucking computer, and its a discussion page you dont need tyo use proper grammer and the like, i love how you simply critizised the guys grammer instead of actually answer his questions and be helpful, chi chis christ Qrc2006 04:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

How dreadfully uncouth! If one wishes to communicate in a civilised manner, one must lose one's unpleasant aggressiveness, don't you think? Correct spelling and grammar are, of course a given in civilized circles. The Real Walrus 16:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't be a dick.--75.73.153.252 04:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

More explanation for people from other nations

The concept of fraternities and sororities is quite bizzare for people from non-North American backgrounds (or at least for Australians, like myself). Perhaps the introduction to this article needs more explanation of the basic purpose or rationale of frats, etc. They reveal a lot about US culture: particularly the formalization and ritualization of social relationships (cf. the rituals surrounding dating). Although most of the rest of the world knows about these US rituals through cinema and TV, we look on with some incomprehension.

As stated above, fraternities are rare outside North America, and serve other purposes. In Australia there are student clubs (usually special interest), and student unions represent the student body as a whole to the university administration. Perhaps residential colleges at universities perform a similar function to frats - ie. a place where students can live, and which foster a semi-ritualized sense of history and belonging. Note that these colleges are purely residential, unlike Oxbridge colleges.

I suppose that is another factor in the importance of US fraternities - a place to live. In Australia (and probably many other countries) people tend to stay in their home town to study. In the US it seems quite the norm for people to move to another town or state for their teritary education. Perhaps this needs to be explained in the article.

Anyhow, someone with more awareness of US culture than myself should provide these clarifications in the article.--Iacobus 00:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Strongly agree, at least there could be a mention that European and other non-US fraternities/sororities usually are quite different from their US counterparts. 82.181.61.48 20:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The confusion is that the article claims to cover student societies from around the world when all it does is describe the NA system and then list some token organizations in Europe. Since "sorority" is primarily a Canadian/US term, I have favored focusing this article on the Greek system in North America and pushing the universal material to Corporation (university) (a term utterly unused for these groups in the US and Canada except in the legal sense) or Student fraternity, but to do it properly will take several hours of editing, which unfortunately I have not been able to spare. -choster 14:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

To understand the role of fraternities in the US as an foreigner, it would be helpful to have an estimate how many students (in percent) are probably member of a fraternity. --213.209.110.130 09:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

To list the specific number of members of all groups would be very hard to update, not to mention time consuming as this number changes on a yearly basis by large amounts. I think that information should stay specific to individual pages of Greek groups. Just a suggestion. Jadis96 19:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

stereotypes

even thought i know most greeks especially men are easyly antagoniozed by this. i think it has been omitted from the article that frats have a stereotype of being loud boistruous alchoholic sexually devaint morons who cheat their way through school racsim etc in pop culture and their perception by many or at least historically. Qrc2006 03:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure that your statement is true at all colleges. Could you cite what sources you have based that statment on? By the way I am not a Greek man, but I never heard this preception from the majority of people I know so I don't think it is pursusaive enough to include in this site. Jadis96 19:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

first "sorority"

Actually, Sigma Kappa Sorority was founded Nov. 9, 1874 at Colby College in Waterville, Maine. Gamma Phi Beta wasn't established until Nov. 11, 1874. Sigma Kappa joined the National Panhellenic Council later on, but Sigma Kappa was the first official sorority.

This is not correct. Every other source I've seen has Gamma Phi Beta listed as the first to actually use the word "sorority". (There were, of course, many -- dozens? -- of "women's fraternities" in existence prior to 1874.) It was coined by a professor at Syracuse, where Gamma Phi was founded, in (it appears) 1882. I have reverted your change to the article until someone can provide a reliable source stating otherwise. --SuperNova |T|C| 14:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Link suggestion

Is this link acceptable for this article (link-owner):

Philosophy and fraternities: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pvosta/pcrhum.htm Pvosta 08:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

popular culture

How is the portrayal of Kappa Kappa Psi in Drumline inaccurate?

Split-off article?

I'm just wondering if maybe a new article should be started for "frat boy/fratboy" instead of having it redirect here. I've been hearing this term used more and more often over the past while, usually referring not so much to male members of fraternities but rather to the stereotypes associated with them - stupid binge-drinking irresponsible teenage boys. For example, someone might say "'adult-oriented' cartoons today are only aimed at the fratboy demographic". Esn 08:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

DISPUTED:Join a black...

Doesn't that sound a little... I dunno, racist? Racial? I don't have any suggestions ("African-American") but just pointing out that it sounds really awkward. Joining a historically black maybe... The use of the word black makes me uncomfortable.--Htmlism 19:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see a trend on the NHPC website to prefer "black," "historically black," or "African American" in reference to their or other Greek organizations. Perhaps the distinction is there and it's too subtle for me to notice. If anyone more knowledgable of Greek terminology can help, please do so! --ElKevbo 20:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The two paragraphs in this section are false. I am a member of Alpha Phi Alpha and I can say for certain that its common knowledge who is pledging for each NPHC organization during the entire pledge process. Ccson 03:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I know that part of it (don't tell anyone you're pledging) is true for some black sororities. Maybe it is only common for sororities or some other subset of black greek organizations? --ElKevbo 03:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

When did you join? It seems that pledging is illegal. As given by the NPHC. [2]. 172.191.196.211 05:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The text specified sugguest this practice is standard for all NPHC groups and personal knowledge can't be cited. I know this isn't true because all pledges walk around campus in a single line, dressed the same and carrying different symbols of the organization to indicate they are pledging. When I was pledging we greeted the pledge lines of AKA and Delta Sigma Theta, Omega Psi and Kappa Alpha Psi. There was nothing secret about it. (this is personal knowledge, but I'm not asking that it be placed in the article). Sometimes suspended chapters will conduct "underground' plegde lines and in this case they will tell the pledges not to mention their status, but this is not represenative of the fraternity since the pledge line is illegal and the line would not be recognized by the national organization. Can you be specific on which organization has this practice, however; this practice would not be indicative of black organizations, just the particular practice of an individual organization. Basically, we need a verifiable and reputable source for these statements to remain in the article.Ccson 17:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

When did you pledge? It says pledging is illegal.[3].

Many of the items discussed in this portion of your article refer to traditions that have long been disestablished by the majority of the National Pan-Hellenic Council Organizaitons. The tradition of secret pledging lines were outlawed by most organizations. Today, the membershp procedures are very structured (and monitored by representatives of the National organizations).

Some local chapters do continue the tradition of performing a probate show once membership has been completed where neophytes (new initiates) perform step routines or chants. These are not required or sanctioned by the National organziations.

For additional information on membership in Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, please review [4]. For information on Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity and pledging, please review [5]. Absolon S. Kent 17:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Majority is not all, however; the question is whether national programs ever required pledges to hide thier intentions.. Are you referring to the statements I made on this talk page or the text in the article that's being questioned. I know how the pledge process works now, however; the dubious part of the article is whether an accepted aspirant can divulge his intentions while aspiring to become a member, whether today or 100 years ago and if it warrants a special section different from white fraternal groups. The second doubt is whether the neophytes perform the probate show in a mask to purposely hide their identity and if jokes are made, today or 100 years ago. Plus, I didn't know that secret pledge lines were ever "lawful" by a national organization, but they still exists in the 21st century. I simply added that as a possibility of why user Elkevbo might have been told by someone that their pledging was a "secret". If there's any truth that some groups official policy is/was to keep secret the names, then this should be included as a historical account of what did occur and then some text on the new intake process and why the change occurred. But, the info must have a verifable and reputable source, and it should be specific to that group, not a generic account of black frat/soror intake process. Ccson 19:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I say keep insert citation needed 172.191.196.211 05:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

This web site Black Greeks shows fraternities and sororities as far back as the 60s with pledges line around campus. I propose that the two paragraphs in the article be removed by Saturday unless someone can find verifiable and reputable sources that contradict the web site and the books from which the information was obtained. Ccson 05:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

what is a strong source? 172.191.196.211 05:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Per previous comments, this section should be removed this week if no one gives a valid reason to keep it. besides the paragraph's generalization, being written poorly, it was clearly lifted, almost entirely, from a blog with the same title and then retro-cited.-Robotam 04:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

If there is something poorly written, maybe you should correct the grammer. The citations seem to be strong enough. From what blog was this taken from? thanks. Freakin Fool 21:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Correcting grammar isn't going to change the problem, as detailed above, that the information presented is dubious at best, when not false. The cites, placed by an easily-traced sockpuppet, actually seem to be quite weak; the main cites are to an unattributed web FAQ[6] that was lifted from a now-defunct blog (not to be confused with the blog that is cited as a source in the second paragraph[7]), and the University of Central Arkansas "Greek Dictionary" web page written as a general, non-definitive guide for students joining greek organizations on UCA's campus. Thanks for your input, though!-Robotam 04:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Alright, i'll use a few other cites for your convenience [8] [9] [10]. Seems strong enough now. The blog you show doesnt make a case for or against what you speak of. Freakin Fool 05:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

That second reference is an archive of a page that no longer exists. Also, simply adding the links on this talk page isn't really enough; if they are reliable sources then they should be added to the main article. They do no good here to the average reader. —ScouterSig 05:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

That i shall do than, thanks Freakin Fool 06:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Then unless there are objections from any other (non-sockpuppet) editors, the text will be removed by Wednesday, unless it is replaced in a factual, NPOV and reliably sourced manner. The text as it is does not reflect that. Note: this does not mean replace the same text with varied footnotes and links of sockpuppet Mykungfu. The text was slated to be removed months ago; there is no wiki requirement to keep the discussion going in perpetuity, especially when the text at issue is dubious. Edits by sockpuppets are not subject to 3RR; there is also no requirement to keep incorrect text in an article as a placeholder. -Robotam 22:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Have you been following the talk page or are you simply acting irrationally? There is a consensus that is attempting to be reached. The references seem to be strong. You state that this section was lifted from a blog, but your evidence seems not to support this. Please lets have contructive edits and reach some sort of consensus by independent wikipedian's. Freakin Fool 00:19, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

After reviewing the sources you cite I would also recommend removal of this section. These sources do not meet Wikipedia's standards of reliability and the information discussed, as noted earlier, seems only to serve to as an attempt to make Black fraternities and sororities different. Since documented evidence has been provided that this is not the policy of the organizations it is dubious and should be removed.
Absolon S. Kent 03:57, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I have included 2 sources for you to view they are page 63,64, and 65 from Black Haze: Violence, Sacrifice, and Manhood in Black Greek-Letter Fraternities [11] and page 62,63, and 64 Black Greek 101: The Culture, Customs, and Challenges of Black Fraternities and Sororities By Walter M. Kimbrough [12] . Hope this information proves useful Freakin Fool 04:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Again you are referring to practices that are no longer sanctioned or authorized by any organzition. This is the equivalant of saying the Article on Mississippi should have a section about legalized slavery because it used to exist there. I still support removal.

NPHC Joint Statement against hazing.

Absolon S. Kent 12:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Without addressing the Mykungfu sockpuppet-like "irrational" ad hominem, the proposed cites to Mssrs. Jones and Kimbrough have nothing to do with either the generalizations or incorrect assertions within the text; even if accepted as fact, the section heading (in generalizing about African-American GLOs) assumes that the purported information is exclusive to "joining a Black Fraternity," when it is not.-Robotam 17:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The article talks about underground pledging and hazing. I very much understand your point of view and your analogy to slavery. Slavery doesn't still occur, hazing and pleding still does. It is well documented that it still occurs. [13] (2007 conviction; Kappa Alpha PSi) [14] (2003 Conviction Alpha Phi Alpha); [15] (2004 Trial; Phi Beta Sigma) [16] (CNN article Alpha Kappa Alpha pledge death 2002). If you like you can make an addition about the MIP process or the "paper" process that is presently authorized. Even if it isn't authorized bears no affect on whether it occurs or not. In addition, the NPHC isn't all black greek's. A distinction has been made in the opening paragraph. Freakin Fool 17:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, please cease from the name calling,[17] . I went to users' talk page and saw that you have had some extreme issues with user [18] . I am not this user. Back on subject, there has been statement that I made an ad hominem, but going by that definition; I am addressing the issue and not the person making the issue. I have provided links and am saying the information is valuable; even if it needs to be reformated a bit. I have also stated that the MIP process should be included as well. In addressing Absolun; the NPHC isn't all black greeks. There are other black greek organizations that have been around for over 75 years that aren't members of the NPHC including Iota Phi Lambda which was founded in 1929 and has over 100 chapters [19] . Freakin Fool 17:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge Pledge Paddle

I don't think the article Pledge Paddle should be merged with the Hazing section of this article, because paddles nowadays often have little to nothing to do with initiatory rituals. The pledge paddle in today's greek system bears more of a symbolic representaion of the member having attained full member status, and after graduation is often displayed prominently in that member's home as a symbol of their pride and membership in that Fraternity or Sorority. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Soulsrocker (talk • contribs) 02:15, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

I also think that the article Pledge Paddle should remain independent of the section on hazing. My reasoning for this is very similiar to the Soulsrocker's reasons. I would also like to add that many NPC sororities (not sure about fraternities or NPHC groups) are even getting away from calling them paddles instead refering to them as "plaques" or "wall hangings". I know is many sororities not only are they a way to show membership after graduation, but are often gifts on important occasions (initation, birthdays etc) because they can be displayed. Just an opinion of course. Jadis96 04:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Although the Pledge paddle originated as a common tool for fraternity hazing, contemporary hazing includes a vast array of practices that don't involve physical beatings with paddles. In many Greek Letter organizations, pledge paddles are now recognized as a symbol for being fully accepted by the group/ (This is true even in academic/honors fraternities that do not haze). Also, most (if not all) hazing deaths result from means other than brutal beatings (particularly the forced consumption of alcohol) so it would be problematic to conceptualize pledge paddles as directly synonomous with hazing, or vice versa. If anything, we should create a separate page for "Pledgeship." I was shocked when I typed it into Wikipedia and did not even find so much as a redirect! M. Frederick 06:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

as a member of phi delta psi a black fraternity; i believe that this section is valuable. 67.87.197.9 18:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC)