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RFC: Volume stats sections combining regular season and playoffs

There is a clear consensus that the combined statistics sections are neither helpful nor appropriate. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 01:15, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the tables with the combined regular season and playoff statistics be deleted?

This keeps happening on a number of pages (primarily on statistics in which Tom Brady would be on the top of the leaderboard). See:

There may be other articles with the same problem. The NFL does not combine regular season and post-season statistics. See, for example, page 622 of the 2022 Official National Football League Record & Fact Book (PDF found here: https://operations.nfl.com/updates/the-game/2022-nfl-record-and-fact-book/). Combining the statistics constitutes original research. I am opening this discussion to talk about the removal of combined regular season and post-season stats from all articles within the scope of the NFL WikiProject. Useight (talk) 16:45, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've been making the case on several pages that these combined stats should not exist in articles. They're never tracked together and I've been dealing with a user at Talk:Tom Brady strongly advocating for it on Brady's article. I'd much rather those sections be deleted altogether as they're just puffery in my opinion. For what it's worth, all 3 of those sections were added by the same user, User:Randy Kryn.
They also don't seem to be included on any of the stat lists that are unrelated to passing. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:48, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like crufty OR. Delete with impunity. Jweiss11 (talk) 20:55, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe I pinged @Randy Kryn:, as I edited my reply to include their name, so sending a ping their way so they can chime in. Only fair to give them a chance to advocate for the content they're adding in to articles. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:47, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Misleading language right off the bat (I didn't add the sections, I readded these long-term sections back after they all were removed without discussion), never a good sign. Please read the titles of the pages and their leads - each of the sections are covered in the title! Nothing broken here. Whoever first added them has done Wikipedia and its football pages a favor, as I for one have been checking those interesting sections for years. May I ask the naysayers, what exactly is your problem with the information? How does any of it harm rather than build and improve the encyclopedia? Which of the sections in question do not relate to the page titles they exist on? I could say more but let's jump over this misleading and "I don't like it" stuff first, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:57, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    My apologies then if you were not the original, but I felt it relevant to include you since you were the one who did add them back. I thought you would be interested in participating and it does seem that way.
    Can you show me any website that tracks the combined regular season and playoff statistics together? I haven't found them on NFL's website, Pro-Football-Reference, ESPN, none of the major website try it as a statistic.
    When "career" statistics are discussed, regular and post-season stats are always mentioned separately instead of being added together. The one exception to this? Tom Brady. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:15, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the ping and correction. I don't edit the Tom Brady page outside of seven minor edits since 2017, and haven't read it aside from a skim for styling. He is quite the player though, we are lucky to be interested in football during his last seasons. As for the sections in question, they fit the page titles perfectly. I'm still not seeing a problem but rather see the sections as improving the encyclopedic coverage maintained by the page titles. Seriously, what information presented is not beneficial and encyclopedic to share with readers or is outside the scope of the page titles? Randy Kryn (talk) 13:36, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh no, sorry, there's a completely separate user I've bene dealing with on Tom Brady's talk page. As I'm sure you're aware you were pinged because of the additions to the above linked lists. I feel the need to explain that for anybody else reading.
    To me they don't appear as an improvement. Wikipedia is not a database and including stats that major stat websites don't track, at least in my opinion, goes against that. It comes across as WP:TRIVIA and WP:FANCRUFT. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:43, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for chiming in. I won't be addressing the WP:IDONTLIKEIT versus WP:ILIKEIT stuff, nor anything regarding specific players. I will address the rest, though. The tables do not fit the page titles. Per the PDF I linked above, per Pro-Football-Reference's leaderboard, and per NFL.com's stat pages, playoff stats are not included in career totals. Ergo, within a Wikipedia article entitled "List of National Football League career passing yards leaders", playoff statistics would not be included. To that end, I would also support removing the playoff-specific tables off those pages and onto their own (but that's another discussion). That all being said, even if these tables in question did fit within the scope of the article's title, that does not inherently qualify them for the page, even if a subset of people believe the information to be beneficial and/or encyclopedic. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. These tables are original research and not notable. Useight (talk) 15:06, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I had brought up making standalone lists of notable playoff stats at Talk:List of National Football League career passing completions leaders. Agree that the combined totals still seem WP:UNDUE / WP:OR.—Bagumba (talk) 16:51, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Unpopular opinion but stats tables shouldn't really belong on Wikipedia. We have Pro Football Reference that does the exact same thing in a better format. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 18:26, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To the extent that a grouping meets WP:LISTN, a standalone list has merit, along with some meaningful stats for entries in said list. But yes, Wikipedia does not maintain stats lists merely because they are verifiable (WP:ONUS).—Bagumba (talk) 00:07, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fully agree. No reason to put stat tables in player articles when we already link to three or more sources (team, NFL.com, PFR, college). ~ Dissident93 (talk) 17:39, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The three article's names and leads define the sections in question. Nothing is broken here. For example, the name of the page is List of National Football League career passing completions leaders and that's exactly what it covers, in full. Regular, post season, and combined stats. What exactly is the problem, and why are you all focused on removing long-standing and obviously title-relevant statistics? Randy Kryn (talk) 02:57, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    As mentioned, in summation,
    • It's WP:TRIVIA
    • Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate database
    • It's WP:OR
    • It's WP:FANCRUFT
    • Combined regular season and playoff statistics are not a measured statistic, though they can obviously be calculated
    • It's WP:UNDUE
    • These stats have only been tracked, combined, on the passing related statistics pages
    Just because something has remained on Wikipedia for an extended period of time does not mean it should have or should remain. Hey man im josh (talk) 03:09, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    This seems more "I don't like it" reasoning enhanced by throwing around names of guidelines and policies and essays which contain little page-defining language that applies to anything we are discussing. To emphasis without boldfacing: The long-standing statistics all pertain to the titles of their pages. Nothing broken. Exact matches. And two of the three leads cover the criteria presented - I tried to bring the third into language which would both be consistent with the other two and accurately define what is on the page, but was reverted. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:21, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Gonna throw my hat into the ring here and say that these shouldn't be included. Combined totals aren't a thing in the NFL, so no reason to do so here. Toa Nidhiki05 03:52, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There has been press about Brady nearing 100,000 regular and post season combined passing yards (here's the latest, from NBC Sports). I don't know if the NFL has commented on this, but sourced coverage about this 100,000 mark seems to justify, if we are going to get technical, the existence of all of the simple and page-title encompassing combinations mentioned here. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:07, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If a particular player passing a particular combined milestone like this gets enough coverage, it may make sense to note that in his bio article. For a somewhat analogous example, the lead of Ichiro Suzuki mentions his combined 4,367 hits in pro baseball between MLB and Japan. But while we have List of Major League Baseball career hits leaders and List of Nippon Professional Baseball career hits leaders, we don't have a whole list of MLB plus Japan combined hits leaders. One-off mentions of particularly salient combined totals do not make those combined stats notable enough to deserve an entire list on Wikipedia. Rather, we'd need reliable sources to list out these combined stats. Randy Kryn, can you show us official NFL records or definitive statistical almanacs like Pro-Football-Reference.com providing a full list treatment to combined regular season plus playoffs stats? Jweiss11 (talk) 04:41, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Moving the goalposts (something Brady could do with help from Gronk), but I'll play. Japan's Nippon and U.S. Major League baseball do not list combined crossover stats for good reason - they are different leagues. Apples and rice. As Brady nears the quickly-becoming-legendary and notable 100,000 combined regular season and playoff yards, more and more sources will add to the good sources already focusing on this recognized record (here's another, from Profootballnetwork.com). This attention doesn't apply to Brady's stats alone but is sourced recognition that combined regular season and playoff stats do have notable meaning. This provides real-world justification that Wikipedia's long-term quarterback combination statistics, which go deeper than the 100,000 mark but still align with NFL career figures, follow the same logical concept. Career means career, not regular season only, and unlike your Japan-American baseball comparison which has no formal connection these NFL regular season and playoff stats both relate to one league. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:49, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So add it to Brady's article. Significant coverage includes coverage of more than one person, even if there's a significant number of coverage for the one person.
Career means career, not regular season only,
Not in the context of the NFL. I'm going to point you towards Tom Brady's NFL.com page. Playoff stats are missing under the career stats sections because the NFL considers "career stats" as regular season stats excluding playoffs. This is echoed by all stat websites. Look at Pro-Football-Reference, ESPN, and Football Database, they're the most relied upon databases for stats besides the NFL's own website, and they also list career stats as only regular season stats. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:03, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Covering the 100,000 number does apply to more than one person, it applies to every quarterback who ever played in the NFL who hasn't achieved that mark. What you and the others are asking for here is to remove massive amounts of long-standing information from the lead and body of the three articles in question, something which harms the encyclopedia (thus WP:IAR kicks in) and hinders readers like myself who follow these stats week-by-week. Here's another reputable source which mentions the 100,000 mark in terms of "total career passing yards". Randy Kryn (talk) 13:26, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
An article from MSN does not overrule the primary source of the NFL, or the other mentioned reliable sources, regarding the definition of career statistics. As mentioned, you're still only showing coverage of the combined statistics relating to one person. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:54, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone ahead and removed the combined rankings from the articles, for now, given there's an ongoing discussion and the general vibe is these shouldn't be there. Toa Nidhiki05 13:54, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted. This needs a full RfC to remove these long-term stats which are harming nobody and improving the encyclopedia, the talk pages weren't notified of this discussion, very few editors are aware of this local discussion, and as mentioned above the 100,000 number for Brady's passing yards are very notable and will become more so as the season proceeds. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:57, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Added RFC tag to this thread and added comment to talk page of each relevant individual page. Complete overkill for determining consensus regarding the inclusion of a section of text on some articles, but, sure, I'll file the paperwork. No problem. Useight (talk) 22:39, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Randy Kryn, this is really getting ridiculous. We need an RFC before we can remove uncited content? I mean we have one now, but it's absurd for you to demand that someone else open one for this. I could add lots of things to lots of articles that wouldn't "harm" anyone. But "harm" or lack thereof is not the standard for inclusion. Rather, notability established by coverage in reliable sources is the standard for inclusion. Did you have any such sources that list out combined regular season and playoff NFL statistics like this? Jweiss11 (talk) 22:50, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It really is. There seems to be a solid consensus here, with a number of experienced editors stating valid reasons and supporting its removal. The only opposition in this case has been Randy who hasn't given us anything beyond WP:ILIKEIT and significant coverage of Brady's combined stat. However, focusing the entire argument around Brady giving undue weight to coverage of Brady's significant stats, which at this point are basically routine.
I've been, from the start, asking to show any type of significant coverage for the stat beyond articles mentioning Brady closing in on 100k combined yards, or something similar. They've since tried to redefine what career statistics are considered. It does more harm to favour inclusion of stats that favour Brady than it does to remove the statistic that's not tracked. Hey man im josh (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just going to jump in after having skimmed everything else. I say there's nothing wrong with it provided, of course, they're actually sourced and not merely WP:OR based on other stats we already have lying around with sources attached to them. We could disambiguate alongside the combined stats, i.e. we could show totals for regular and post season results and the two categories separately. At the same time, however, I've seen concern that combining the two categories only rarely comes up in the press we could cite, if it ever comes up at all, so perhaps it's not really a significant point of intersection for the particular interests of the encyclopedia (i.e. it's not a notable aspect unto itself so we shouldn't really care if no one else we normally cite does). The buzz about e.g. Tom Brady on his way to 100K passing yards could be brought up on his article or in whichever few places it's truly relevant. I would say another argument to keep the status quo is that not everyone makes it to the post season, so those who do tend to benefit from their stats being enhanced by post season games, therefore it carries additional implications of notability and dominance for the palyers involved, but again, that's just my point of view and not really something that seems to be cared much about on the whole, so we wouldn't find it in too many publications. I'm fine with things the way they are if we can source them, but the trouble seems to have been exactly that, so I'll go with the flow on this one. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 01:55, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

...they're actually sourced and not merely WP:OR based on other stats we already have lying around with sources attached to them: It actually can be considered OR. Per the policy WP:CALC:

Routine calculations do not count as original research, provided there is consensus among editors that the result of the calculation is correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources.

To date, there only seems to be one editor who believes that the sum is meaningful and a reflection of sources. —Bagumba (talk) 11:11, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Based on your reply, the key is whether the sum actually illuminates anything for the reader that would otherwise be overlooked, or if any value is added that would otherwise not be present. This actually makes it seem as if there is more value in presenting things separately because, again, making the post season repeatedly would bulk up the stats in that category, and making it that far in a given season is prestigious on its own, so those stats can and should be left to speak for themselves. That appears to be where the emphasis is among editors, readers, and journalists, so that is where we should be heading with our consensus. Indeed, that does appear to be the case. Consider me on board. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 08:04, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Creating the RfC seemed like more of a stall tactic and hail Mary, are there any objections to me requesting a closure? The consensus was clear prior to the RfC and still seems as such. The content cannot be sourced and it's only notable in the context of Tom Brady. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:53, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's no rush. I would let the RFC run for at least a week before requesting closure. Useight (talk) 19:57, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've kept away as insults flew towards my position, but this seems a malformed RfC in the first place as it was just tossed onto an existing long-winded discussion. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:08, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Useight. Taking the good-faith approach hopefully minimizes any potential Wikilawyering later. —Bagumba (talk) 23:43, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tex Kelly

Tex Kelly, a player with 17 games in the NFL, has been nominated for deletion. See here for the discussion. BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:04, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ah BeanieFan11, the perpetual saver of articles that go to AfD. I love how you always seem to expand pages significantly and save them from deletion. Hey man im josh (talk) 11:45, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Help add Depict statements to NFL player photos on Commons

There is a project on Wikimedia Commons to add structed data elements to as many files as possible. One of the important data elements is the Depict statement which says what is depicted in the image. A very easy to use tool called Depictor has been written using a game like interface to add Depict statements to Commons images. It's very easy and anyone can do it. I have created a challenge on the Depictor tool site to add Depict statements to all of the possible photos of NFL players on Commons. If anyone would like to help you can find the challenge here. When you click on the link you will be shown a known photo of an NFL player on the left and another photo on the right . If the photo on the right showns the NFL player you just click on Yes, if it doesn't click on No, if you are not sure then click on Skip (On a mobile device the known photo will be on the top and the other on the bottom). There is a Youtube video describing the tool and how to use it here Thanks Captain-tucker (talk) 16:17, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh this is cool. I've already started chipping away. Hey man im josh (talk) 00:28, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Made a small dent in it. Useight (talk) 16:59, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

New parameters for NFL infobox?

What's the best way to request new parameters for the Template:Infobox NFL biography? I do a lot with infoboxes and there's been something that's been bugging me. We have "statseason" and "statweek" parameters for players that make it easy to know when the statistics in the infobox were last updated, but it's difficult to tell for coaching records. I'd like to suggest new parameters such as "coachstatseason" and "coachstatweek". Hey man im josh (talk) 12:02, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As it's got template protection, I would suggest establishing consensus at a well-watched place like here at WT:NFL. If after consensus it's still not completed by a passerby with permission, make a formal request at that template's talk page with a link to the prior discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 23:33, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the answer, I've never had to request any parameters for an infobox so this was good to know. I guess I'll hope I get feedback based on this post, unless it'd be better off to start a fresh section with a better section title and just the proposal without the question. Hey man im josh (talk) 02:05, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Matt Araiza lede stating that he "joined" the NFL

I'm trying to gain consensus to determine how Matt Araiza's entry into the NFL should be described in the lede. The current structure states that "joined the National Football League (NFL) when he was selected by the Buffalo Bills in the sixth round of the 2022 NFL Draft". I might be wrong, but I feel like referring to a player's entry as "joining the league" is rather uncommon and also not super accurate given the specifics of the draft/udfa process in the NFL. Any attempt to reword the sentence is undone by another editor. Personally, I feel like stating that Araiza was selected in the 2022 NFL Draft by the Buffalo Bills is perfectly fine and we can leave out the National Football League article entirely but I'm open to any suggestions and just coming to clear consensus either way. Best, GPL93 (talk) 16:46, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is funny sounding. I think PeeJay improved it here, but I thought I'd ping @Bluerules: to contribute to the discussion. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:58, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We have to reference National Football League in the lead because it's the biggest notability factor of the subject. If a player is a free agent, I generally think it's best to say he "began his career in the National Football League", but since Araiza was cut before the regular season, I don't think that's the most appropriate wording for him. I support PeeJay's revision - he still did enter / join the league by being on the Bills roster and other free agent / former player articles aren't always the best basis because they leave out vital details. Bluerules (talk) 17:31, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that it has to especially given that the Bills and the Draft article links make it pretty apparent. Maybe spell out the league's full name for the 2022 draft link? GPL93 (talk) 18:03, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's not apparent for anyone who doesn't know what NFL stands for - and like I said, being in NFL is the biggest notability factor for the subject. The problem with spelling out NFL in the draft link is the draft article is "NFL Draft" and expanding it would be awkward. Plus, we still wouldn't have an NFL hyperlink. I support maintaining the current version. Bluerules (talk) 02:22, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Alternative: Araiza joined the Buffalo Bills of the National Football League (NFL) after they selected him in the sixth round of the 2022 NFL Draft. Introduces "National Football League" while avoiding "joining/entering the National Football League". —Bagumba (talk) 06:04, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Bluerules, the league should be mentioned and linked with the abbreviation next to it in the lead. The team's association to the NFL is obvious to us but it's not obvious to people unfamiliar with the sport. It's standard that we mention it in the lead of most players and former players, more often than not being mentioned in the very first sentence. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:16, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Should We Follow Official Game Notes (Provided by the Team) for Player Positions?

User Hey_man_im_josh and I have been having a disagreement over how to show player positions on the Dallas Cowboys' roster template. He says we should follow the team's roster as listed on the team's website (which I retorted often has small inaccuracies), while I believe we should primarily follow official game notes provided to the NFL by the team if they are available. Example here:

https://static.clubs.nfl.com/image/upload/cowboys/x6xabe1bghed4yb814uh.pdf?email=cmV2YW5mYW5AY29tY2FzdC5uZXQ=&utm_term2&utm_term3

Those are the team's official game notes provided to the NFL and to the fans through the Dallas Cowboys United program. I feel that should be the primary authority for player positions on the template, with the team's website as the secondary source. RevanFan (talk) 17:45, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As for what should we follow when teams don't publish game notes? Again, I say use the team's website as a secondary source, along with reports from reporters covering the team. RevanFan (talk) 17:48, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think either one of us is wrong in this instance, but it's a question of what do we prioritize? It's easier when a player plays the game, but when they're just on the practice squad, there's not nearly as much information for a player.
My concern with the PDF linked is that they mention free agency moves, and reference Watkins as a DT signing. My view is that players shift positions all the time, and that it's better to rely on the depth chart and position listed for a player by the team itself. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:51, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In general, I've always gone by: 1. Game notes. 2. Reports from respected team beat reporters. 3. The official team website. 4. Other sources (NFL.com, etc.) In the past, the roster posted on dallascowboys.com was HIGHLY inaccurate. They wouldn't note jersey number or even some roster changes for WEEKS on end. It was so annoying. They're better at it now, but I stopped trusting them as a primary source due to how late they were on updates in years past. Some teams are better than others at timely updates to their roster. RevanFan (talk) 17:54, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also I'll note that the reporters and webmasters who publish depth charts on the official team websites, at least for Dallas, will often stress that they are "unofficial". Meaning their depth chart page isn't that great of a source usually. 18:00, 20 September 2022 (UTC) RevanFan (talk) 18:00, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As for your concern about players moving around a lot, that's why I like to list primary and secondary positions if players have them. For example, Watkins. He mostly is a DT but he sometimes plays off the edge. Therefore, I list him as DT/DE. If a player plays more than two positions, I only list the top two. But most players don't play more than two positions. RevanFan (talk) 18:05, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I support using the team's website. It represents a general overview of the roster, which is what the roster template is supposed to provide. The game notes prioritize the individual game, not the season as a whole. Bluerules (talk) 13:58, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Araiza's college in lead

From the Matt Araiza thread above, I noticed that his lead shows his college as "San Diego State", piped from San Diego State University. At a previous discussion, there was a rough consensus that we link to the school's football team (e.g. San Diego State Aztecs) in the lead, which is also consistent with the infobox. Is there a new reason to not follow that? —Bagumba (talk) 09:29, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

When I was working on the Corey Dillon page in late 2020, Rockchalk717 changed the hyperlink for Washington Huskies football in the lead to University of Washington. I've been following that example since.
I can't speak for Rockchalk and don't know if he still supports this approach, but I support hyperlinking the school over the school's football team because it is grammatically correct (the player played "at" the school, not "at" the football team). Furthermore, there are situations in which it's more appropriate we give the school's full name. For example, it needs to be clear Kenny Pickett's college Pittsburgh team is not the same as his NFL team. There are also individuals such as Steve Largent and Herschel Walker who are notable outside of football and referencing their school in the lead also identifies their educational background. This is the standard I've seen for politician's articles, which applies to Largent and Walker. Bluerules (talk) 16:06, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I do 100% support linking and using the school's name, especially if it says something like "...played college football at (school)". It's partially because we already have the football page linked in the infobox so I feel like the school should be linked in the opening.--Rockchalk717 16:18, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The ones in the infobox are WP:EASTEREGG links. I don't see any valid reason why we shouldn't be listing the team name instead of just the school. This seems like yet another 2000s-era Wikipedia policy that we stuck with without questioning why. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 17:38, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Using the school is grammatically correct (Kenny Pickett played at the University of Pittsburgh, not at Pittsburgh Panthers football) and allows for more flexibility if the subject becomes notable outside of football. The team name is unneeded space, especially when college teams are usually referred to by just the school name. Bluerules (talk) 18:14, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am fine with the status quo for a former player's alma mater. What is an anomaly are coaches with stints in both pro and college, e.g. Jim Harbaugh, where the team name is inconsistently omitted in the team history listing. —Bagumba (talk) 00:16, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Played for: My preferred wording in the lead is the format He played college football for the San Diego State Aztecs (e.g. [[San Diego State Aztecs football|San Diego State Aztecs]]). I agree that "played at" should never be mixed with an MOS:EGG link to a school program.—Bagumba (talk) 00:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My issue with "played for" is it adds unnecessary wording - "played college football at San Diego State" gets the same information across as "played college football for the San Diego State Aztecs" in less words. Plus, the college team's name typically isn't used for an NFL's player's background. NFL profiles don't identify the college team name for players and only the school name is used when a player is drafted. Bluerules (talk) 02:24, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My perspective is that a link in the lead of a football bio to the actual college football program, San Diego State Aztecs football, is more relevant to a football player than merely its location, San Diego State University. As noted, "played college football at" should not have an EGG link to San Diego State Aztecs football, so we word it as "played college football for the San Diego State Aztecs", linking to the footbal program. —Bagumba (talk) 03:19, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Like I mentioned above, I find it more flexible to hyperlink to the school because some subjects become notable outside of football - Steve Largent held federal office and his educational background shouldn't be limited to him playing football in college. And it's not the "location", it's the school itself. It's what the football program is part of. I find the school more relevant because that's the main article. Bluerules (talk) 18:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This wording (or something similar) makes the most sense to me as well. If someone wants to get to the school's main article instead it's just one extra click. Hatman31 (talk) 23:56, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The school's football team is also one extra click from the main article - and we're able to include both by having the main article in the lead and the football program in the infobox. Bluerules (talk) 16:59, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not everyone who reads the lead necessarily looks at the infobox, and it's MOS:EGGy to have two links with the same display go to different pages. Likewise, the school link is one click away from the football program page. —Bagumba (talk) 17:21, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I find that the school article should be more obvious than the football program article (which also typically appears in the body of the article) on account of it being the main article and the aforementioned grammar ("at") indicates where the hyperlink is headed. The "one click away" point applies to both articles. Bluerules (talk) 19:35, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The more relevant article is almost always the team's article, which certain exceptions if the subject is more notable for something outside of football. The subject's coverage about their time spent in college is usually in the context of them as a member of the football team and not as a student, As Bagumba pointed out in the previous discussion. I believe that this should also extend to when linking schools in reference to scholarship offers. Scholarship offers and status are controlled entirely by the football program, a coach can revoke a scholarship or withdraw a scholarship offer with a high degree of autonomy. Generally the academic administration is involved is the admissions process, which is usually just rubber stamping an application as long as minimum standards are met, and issues regarding discipline for off-field incidents (and even then not always) and eligibility to remain a student at the institution given that the NCAA determines eligibility to play and not much else. Best, GPL93 (talk) 15:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The school article is not about only academics. It is about the school as a whole, including the football team, and the player ultimately represented the school. This is demonstrated by only the school being mentioned when a player is drafted and only the school being shown in player's official NFL profiles. There are also other cases in which the school needs to be spelled out, such as Kenny Pickett (to draw a distinction between his school and NFL team) and Ben Roethlisberger (to establish he played at Miami University in Ohio, not the University of Miami). To display the school's full name, but hyperlink the football program (as I saw done with Pickett's article) is misleading improper piping.
As for scholarship offers and status, the football program is controlled entirely by the school. The school hires and fires the coaches. Again, the school article represents the school as a whole, not just the academic administration. In the case of Matt Araiza's article, the altered wording caused the SDSU acronym to be lost - and if the school's full name is used, the school should be hyperlinked to ensure proper piping. Mac Jones' article once had a normal hyperlink to the University of Kentucky, but presented a hyperlink to Alabama's football team as the University of Alabama in the same sentence, which was inconsistent and confusing. Bluerules (talk) 17:22, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is incredibly common for state universities to be referred to as "X State" without "university" while maintaining the "U" acronymn, so we aren't exactly "losing" the acronym. And yes, on a super-macro level the school is involved, but it is certainly not misleading to link to the football program as the reference is to what team they played for, rather than the school they attended. GPL93 (talk) 17:56, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We are losing the "U" acronym if we're putting "SDSU" right next to "San Diego State". In text, what the acronym stands for should be provided in full. And the school's involvement isn't macro-level - the football program answers to the school. It may not be necessarily wrong, but when the football program is already hyperlinked in the proceeding college career section, it's more appropriate to have a school hyperlink in the early life section. Bluerules (talk) 19:43, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You're really starting to get on my nerves with your pernickety attitude towards things on this site. People refer to the school as "SDSU" and "San Diego State". The fact that the acronym doesn't perfectly match the longer name is totally irrelevant, since people don't call it San Diego State University in everyday discourse. Why must you insist on making everything difficult? – PeeJay 21:24, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I recommend reading WP:NOPERSONALATTACKS before you write another comment like this one. The fact that the acronym doesn't perfectly match what it's supposed to stand for is completely relevant because you cannot assume everyone knows what SDSU stands for and when we provide an acronym in text, we are supposed to establish what the acronym stands for in full. SDSU stands for San Diego State University; we reference the full name and give the acronym to ensure the information is complete for all readers. Simple as that. Bluerules (talk) 22:51, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If he played college football for SDSU, he played for San Diego State. The "University" is redundant, especially since most people don't refer to the institution as San Diego State University. Thanks for playing. – PeeJay 23:35, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If we are identifying what creates the acronym SDSU, we identify where every letter comes from - San Diego State University. The current version of the page says "San Diego State University (SDSU)", neatly providing each piece of the acronym. The proposal is to say "San Diego State (SDSU)", which fails to provide each piece of the acronym and makes the "U" look like it came from nowhere. If "University" was redundant, it would not be in the acronym. What people refer to the institution as is irrelevant - what's relevant is the proper name. Most people apparently not referring to the institution as "San Diego State University" doesn't impact the article being called "San Diego State University" and it doesn't change how we identify what makes up an acronym. Thanks for playing. Bluerules (talk) 05:30, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
...the altered wording caused the SDSU acronym to be lost...: The SDSU expansion is already in the body, which satisfies MOS:ACRO1STUSE. —Bagumba (talk) 05:35, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The SDSU expansion is in the body because of the current edit. The proposal is to remove the expansion. And that's not the only issue with the proposal - schools are more commonly hyperlinked in the early life section and the football program is already hyperlinked in the following section, making the school hyperlink more appropriate. Bluerules (talk) 12:36, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The proposal is to remove the expansion: No, the proposal is whether to link and display the football program in the lead. That is independent of whether or not an abbrev like SDSU gets introduced later in the article.—Bagumba (talk) 15:04, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The schools are not more commonly hyperlinked and because the offer is specifically to play for the football program it is much more relevant. It is also usually easier to get to the school article from the team article than the other way around. Also, the argument has been made that this is common and acceptable for the "University" part to not be included but to still use the "U" acronym. The MoS states that acronyms do not need to be written out in full. Best, GPL93 (talk) 15:06, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The schools are more commonly hyperlinked in "Early life" sections in general. For football players, it is actually more common to not even mention the schools / college football programs in this section because there is a section immediately following it about their college career. And in this context, both the school (which is much more relevant in the context of the offer because the football program answers to the school) and the football program (which is more relevant once they start playing college football) can be hyperlinked. Since Araiza's article mentions his offers in the "Early life" section instead of the "College career" section, it is redundant to have two hyperlinks to the football program follow each other. Not only is still easy to get to the program article from the school article, there's still already a football program hyperlink. Having the school hyperlinked in the "Early life" section is both more appropriate and avoids the redundancy. The argument for "University" to not be included was not an effective one because it ignores how acronyms work. When we give the full name before giving the acronym, we are supposed to give the actual full name. Bluerules (talk) 21:21, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's not the proposal being discussed in this conversation. This conversation shifted to a discussion over the "Early life and high school" section, which currently says Araiza committed to play at "San Diego State University (SDSU)" and hyperlinks the school. The proposal in this conversation is to change the wording to "San Diego State (SDSU)" and hyperlink the football program. One of the issues (and not the only issue) with this proposal is it removes what the acronym stands for in full. Bluerules (talk) 21:05, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In this case, do we even need the acronym? Can't we just refer to them as San Diego State throughout? – PeeJay 23:54, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Using SDSU is an editorial decision that is independent of whether we have the football program link in the lead. After the lead, the body can say something like "at San Diego State University (SDSU)..." if one chooses to use SDSU for some brevity and variety.—Bagumba (talk) 01:24, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What's the harm in using the full name in the body? That's where the school hyperlink can be used alongside the football program hyperlink. Bluerules (talk) 02:50, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This conversation shifted to a discussion over the "Early life and high school" section...: I didn't catch that you went on a tangent. Getting back to the lead, linking the football program there doesn't preclude linking to the university later in the body; those are independent issues.—Bagumba (talk) 01:19, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
GPL93 brought up a proposal to change the school hyperlinks in the body to football program hyperlinks and I explained my opposition to this proposal. I don't have an issue with hyperlinking the football program in the lead and the school in the body; I'm opposed to having two hyperlinks to the football program right on top of each other, which would be the result of changing the hyperlinks in the "Early life and high school section". At the very least, there should be a hyperlink to the school, even if it's not in the lead. Bluerules (talk) 02:57, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd suggest modifying the body to something like "Araiza committed to play college football at San Diego State University (SDSU) for the Aztecs..." I've seen the argument made that non-sports fans and non-Americans may be more familiar with the university, so a link to it at some point makes the connection more obvious. —Bagumba (talk) 05:17, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. We could move the information about his college offers from the "Early life and high school" section to the "College career" section, where it's more appropriate. Bluerules (talk) 17:03, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Score order

FYI

There is a discussion about the order of scores (i.e. winner–loser vs. loser-winner) at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football § Score order in articles about players.—Bagumba (talk) 04:14, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ProFootballArchives.com

I'm reviewing 1987 San Diego Chargers season for GA, and asked on Talk:1987 San Diego Chargers season/GA1 about profootballarchives.com. I can't tell if it's a one-person site or not, but it doesn't seem to have any information available that would help me establish it's reliable. The nominator, Harper J. Cole, found this, but it's just a forum post, so I don't think it helps. Does the site get referenced as reliable by professional sports news organizations, for example? That would be good evidence. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:47, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, PFA is considered a reliable source (its been as a reference at least 1,500 times here and I've found it accurate in just about all cases). There appears to be some news sources which have cited it as well, see The Ball State Daily News, San Antonio Express-News, The Dispatch, The State, Indianapolis Recorder, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, 247Sports, The Sport Journal, and the Burlington Free Press. Its pretty much the only good source you can get for minor league football statistics from the 1910s to 1970s. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:08, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've also found it very reliable. Never had an issue with it. As Beanie said, it's particularly good because its data extends beyond just the NFL and covers other pro leagues, including CFL, USFL, World Football League, Dixie League, American Association, etc. Whether it's one person or 100, their research is crazy impressive -- they even compile the years when players lettered in college ball. Cbl62 (talk) 15:20, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that settles it for me -- the links to news organizations treating them as reliable is just what I was hoping to find. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:29, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've found minor quibbles here and there. For example: PFA shows Fran Tarkenton getting sacked 44 times in 1961: https://www.profootballarchives.com/playert/tark00200.html while PFR shows him getting sacked 41 times: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TarkFr00/gamelog/1961/. Of course, PFR's stats are blank for two games, so it's possible that Tarkenton was sacked three times between the two games, but PFR's 41 sacks show him losing 425 yards while PFA's 44 sacks have it as only 416. Probably just a case of sack statistics being unreliable, as a whole, prior to 1982. Useight (talk) 22:23, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dispute at Gardner Minshew

Hello. Rather than going to the talk page, where it is unlikely to be seen, I wanted to bring this right to the WikiProject. Bluerules has significantly reduced the lede of Gardner Minshew claiming there is no substance to this content. In all of my athlete bio GAs, I typically utilize a format where one paragraph is devoted to amateur career and the next to professional. This has never been seriously disputed. Rather than unproductive edit warring, I thought to propose the question to a larger audience. I am unlikely to be responsive today, as I have other obligations that require me to be offline. — GhostRiver 16:45, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The lead of Gardner Minshew suffers from WP:UNDUE and unnecessary bloat. There are references to Wyatt Rogers, Tyler Hilinski, Alex McGough, and Tanner Lee, who are mentioned only once or twice in the body of the article; Rogers does not even have his own article. His time at East Carolina and Washington State, the two major college programs he played for, is stretched out across three sentences and 431 characters. I condensed this into one sentence with 227 characters that maintains the most important information: him setting a conference record and winning a major college award. This is information that's buried in the current lead by significantly less notable information (high school and junior college championships, which normally wouldn't warrant notability for an article). Conversely, key information about his professional career - the most notable component of his career - is missing from the lead. There is no mention of him setting a rookie franchise and no mention on him currently holding a backup role on his team. And even if this was added, the reader is overwhelmed by information about his amateur career before they can get to his professional career in the lead. Again, the subject's professional career should be the priority in the lead.
This is veering into WP:OTHERCONTENT territory, but there is no guideline requiring an entire paragraph to be dedicated to the amateur career. Scott Zolak's article has less than a sentence about his amateur career in the lead and that's an FA. The lead of Zolak's article is almost entirely about his professional career. Bluerules (talk) 17:20, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm with Bluerules on this one. Too much in the lead that should be moved to another section, if retained. Useight (talk) 19:51, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree with Bluerules, with the lone exception of mentioning he played at Northwest Mississippi Community College prior to East Carolina. The lede is way too bloated. Best, GPL93 (talk) 15:18, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't mention high school career in the lead, save for someone with national honors. Follow MOS:LEADREL:

According to the policy on due weight, emphasis given to material should reflect its relative importance to the subject, according to published reliable sources. This is true for both the lead and the body of the article.

—Bagumba (talk) 02:16, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Need help with a consensus

Can I get some project members to comment on Matt Birk's talkpage please? I'm in a discussion with someone about mentioning he won the Walter Payton Man of the Year award in the opening.--Rockchalk717 04:50, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Current NFL player AFDs

A group of current NFL players have been nominated for deletion. Please see the following discussions:

BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:05, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

NFL Slimetime

So, NFL Slimetime premiered its second season a few weeks back. However, due to the article's importance being rated "Low", no one has been able to update it (increasing the episode count and adding the weekly NVP). I've been doing this for nearly a month, and I am tired of being the only contributor. Feel free to reply with any thoughts about this. BrickMaster02 (talk) 23:55, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused. What do you mean when you say no one has been able to update it because of it's importance being rated "Low"? The article's importance rating to the WikiProject has no bearing on whether someone is able to edit an article or not. Hey man im josh (talk) 01:45, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I was told that the reason why no one else was doing it was because the article's importance was rated "Low". I don't know if I'm missing something, but it's weird how no one else has taken advantage of the article whenever a new episode airs. BrickMaster02 (talk) 01:48, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The majority of articles that have the WikiProject tag and an importance rating set have the importance set as "low". The stats for class and importance can be found here. Quick stats:
Unrated - 19,345
Low rating - 9,767 (65.6% of rated)
Mid rating - 3,907 (26.3% of rated)
High rating - 722 (4.9% of rated)
Top rating - 487 (3.3% of rated)
I think you're seeing low participation in that article because of a lack of interest in the topic, not because of its rating. Hey man im josh (talk) 02:01, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know why anyone isn't editing the article, as it's related to the NFL. I don't want to continue editing it, as it is getting old being the only one contributing. BrickMaster02 (talk) 02:07, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Contributing to Wikipedia is voluntary, both for yourself and others. Don't feel obligated if you have other interests. —Bagumba (talk) 02:13, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Adding teams abbreviations to articles

I proposed adding the team abbreviations to the infoboxes (or at least the articles bodies) here. Please state your opinion. Thanks. -- Angus (talk) 14:13, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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