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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sparticusmaximus (talk | contribs) at 20:52, 27 October 2022 (→Criticism of Afghan War Crimes reporting: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Fake claim about reporting from more than dozen Middle Eastern countries

The source says "Mark has reported from dozens of countries across the Middle East and Asia, covering stories in Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Morocco, Lebanon, Iran, South Korea and Thailand it does not say more than a doezen middle east countries which an editor has consistently insisted. further skewing of this statement is disruptive and vandalism. LibStar (talk) 23:14, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Removing puffery, uncited and irrelevant book reviews, and minimising peacocking

There are a number of issues with the article currently, which I have attempted to fix but my edits have been reverted by @Tokyo Oz, who I believe may have a direct interest in this article (due to this being the sole article they edit on Wikipedia). I would like to ensure that this article aligns to address what I perceieve as puffery and peacocking which were originally added by @Tokyo Oz seemingly to inflate the article (speculatively, perhaps for book sales). I hold out an olive branch to try to resolve these issues without administrator sanctions, but the article needs to present a neutral point of view. Selectively including uncited book reviewed and including them on the author's article is not balanced. I ask please identify what issues there are with my edit: [1], and advise why it was reverted without comment nor notification. I ask we use the article talkpage to discuss, rather than my talkpage, following the comments made here: [2]. Aeonx (talk) 04:45, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism about Willacy's reporting of Afghanistan reporting (November Platoon)

@Sparticusmaximus, I'm attempting to add balance to the article regarding Willacy's allegations about Australian special forces' war crimes; Willacy's commentary on this matter is not limited to his 3rd book but also a series of television and ABC News online segments published by his employer, ABC News. The Veteran Support Force published letter from November Platoon Commander, Heston Russell (also apparently the Managing Director of the Veteran Support Force), directly counters the alleged war crimes picked-up and published by Willacy here: [3]. In the interest of avoiding WP:OR and keeping to the cited sources, I've updated the section you reverted, I think this addresses your concerns. To elaborate on my concerns on the article, and why I think this section is necessary is that Wikipedia may be inavertedly peacocking Willacy and his journalism to provide truth to the allegations or even promote his books (which really is not encyclopaedic). The reality is the evidence for some allegations is questionable as noted in Brereton Report. As far as I can identify from public sources, there was no independent investigative verification or validation done by the book's publisher of Willacy's claims with regards to his reporting on alleged war crimes by Australian soldiers in Afghanistan. Aeonx (talk) 11:34, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Aeonx, thank for starting this section to discuss the recent changes to the page. Are you able to cite the specific sections of the Brenton report that question Willacy's reporting on war crimes by Australian forces? In relation to Willacy's book, Rouge Forces was published by Simon & Schuster, one of the world's leading publishers. Such publishers have extensive processes in place to verify and fact check author claims. Do you have any evidence that this did not occur? It is entirely expected you would not find their verification in public documents. The lack of such public documentation does not demonstrate this did not occur. Have you contacted the publisher for comment? The book, which details alleged crimes committed by the SAS, is also irrelevant to the sources you have cited on the page which instead relate to reporting of other incidents of alleged war crimes. That aside and acknowledging that the page is about the person Mark Willacy, I think your edits which now cite national media sources are more appropriate. I have made some edits that I think more succinctly and accurately represent the nature of the dispute you cite with Willacy's work. Sparticusmaximus (talk) 14:02, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fairly sure that simply describing the publisher as "one of the world's leading publishers" does not provides any evidence that they have "extensive processes in place to verify and fact check author claims", my guess is more likely they just have processes to avoid legal actions on potential libel claims. I have found no evidence (including in my copy of the book) that any verification or validation of the claims occurred. Are you aware of any (non-speculative) evidence that it did?
"The lack of such public documentation does not demonstrate this did not occur. Have you contacted the publisher for comment?", Nor does it provide evidence it did occur! I have not undertaken any WP:OR. Aeonx (talk) 20:18, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is standard in publishing to verify authors' claims. The publisher's reputation is on the line and it is this reputation backed their processes for verifying content, that carries more weight than evidence free critique of the contents of their publications. If there's any actual evidence that counters the claims made in the book then this would be worth noting, but I don't think claims that the book is somehow unverified are fair considering the reputation of the publisher. Keep in mind of course that this is all moot in relation to the edits you have been making the Mark Willacy page, which relate to separate alleged incidents of war crimes by the ADF. Of those, I think your recent edits are helpful and the section in question now represents a more fair and clear description of the critique of Willacy's work on the topic. Sparticusmaximus (talk) 23:04, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia does not make assumptions about whether a publisher for a book verified or validated any claims within it, standard practice or not. To imply that it did without evidence wouldn't meeting Wikipedia's guidelines. I think the claims are related- what seems to be an outcry from ex-ADF personnel and veterans over claims made with very limited (often single-source) supposed witnesses stated as fact rather than allegations, but there hasn't been suitable criticism citation I can use as a reference for inclusion in Wikipedia, but the specific issue of November Platoon Regarding the disputed claims there has been. That journalistic criticism is focused chiefly on assertion that the ABC has published a story based, it seems, purely on a single anonymous source who wasn't even a direct witness and who's testimony may be unreliable. I'm going to keep the title to that section criticism, because it is not an investigation, there was no investigation (by Willacy or the ABC), it was a story that was published and has since been criticised and disputed. Criticised by the fact the reporting did not seek any verification, and disputed in that it's claimed to be untrue by people there. Aeonx (talk) 20:47, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think you mistakenly presume the story in relation to November Platoon is “based, it seems, purely on a single anonymous source…(etc)..” The ABC in a media statement on November 19, 2021 said: “The story was the result of extensive work over two months, including multiple interviews with the key source, who stands by his account.

We do not comment in detail on our war crimes stories outside our careful reporting, as that has the potential to jeopardise confidential sources – people who themselves are or were members of the military – and adversely impact a sensitive and important investigation by the Office of the Special Investigator… “ Willacy’s reporting has been based on concerns raised from within the ranks of the elite unit by serving and former members, SAS operators, support staff and intelligence officers.

Stories he has produced have been followed up by the Brereton Inquiry and sparked a war crimes investigation by the AFP. At all times Defence has been provided with an opportunity to respond to the issues raised in the reporting.” A key point in regard to your apparent determination to frame the reporting chiefly as an object of criticism above one of revelation is that the Defence Department has not disputed or criticised the report (where reports are demonstrably false the department has not hesitated to do so previously). The details given by the Department in its reasons for the decision in response to the ABC’s Freedom of Information application make clear that it is the conduct of November Platoon that is the subject of a current criminal investigation. Given the scope and timing of the material sought in the application, it could not be otherwise. Peter Dutton’s response becomes more problematic in the wake of the Department of Defence’s FOI decision reasons, rather than to bolster Russell’s complaint. TruthAndContext (talk) 10:16, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The ABC itself has confirmed, as you quoted, that the story is primarily based on single anecdotal source "the key source", no other sources or references have been supplied to verify the claim by the ABC. The conjecture that because the Department of Defence has not denied the report that it must be true is a logical fallacy. It's presumptive, and again, is not encyclopedic. I don't see it as relevant in this article to discuss the factual accuracy (or lack thereof) of Willacy's stories, other than to identify what criticism has been notably reported. The article identifies, for the purposes of balance and to reflect on public reporting, that Willacy's stories have been subject to criticism, both about their factual accuracy and the lack of ABC verification and validation, particularly, his story about November Platoon. The article about Mark Willacy on Wikipedia is not here to debate or evidence the legitimacy of his reporting, it is to identify relevant facts and commentary evidenced by reliable sources that relate to Willacy as it relates to the WP:GNG. Aeonx (talk) 22:28, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have reverted your recent edits, primarily because using the ABC as a reference to claim things that the Department of Defence has "confirmed" is not reliable (nor factually correct). Cited evidence in the article, which you removed without reason, exists to the contrary. Please discuss first on talkpage. Aeonx (talk) 22:43, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@aeonx You’ve included claims by the former platoon commander, including an interpretation of the defence document and the ABC article, that are inaccurate and not supported by evidence. Inclusion of unsupported commentary is more in line with journalistic neutrality over encyclopaedic neutrality, hence not appropriate here. Have amended to reflect this. TruthAndContext (talk) 06:25, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@TruthAndContext, the claims by the Heston Russell stated in the article correspond directly to the cited reference. Statements you've added such as "claimed, without citing evidence," is WP:OR and it's not neutral language, that's why I've reverted them (as I already stated in the edit summary). I understand (as you stated already) that you believe the ABC is the more reliable reference with regards this matter than Heston Russell, and you have a clear editing bias towards the ABC and Willacy's POV. I am treat BOTH sources equally, and I don't believe there is any reason to assert that the ABC is more reliable. The article should present WP:balance of both viewpoints. Further refinements to dates the alleged events in the cited referenced is not consistent with the evidence, nor the FOI request dates (1 June - 31 July); which is what the criticism is about. The criticism does not refer to "mid-2012". The allegation specifically, was an execution of a hostage in a "night raid in mid-2012. The operation [supposedly] took place north of the HMLA-469 base at Camp Bastion in Afghanistan's Helmand Province." and was supposedly "part of a wider joint Australian special forces-US Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) campaign". That's what the ABC article states. Russell has stated November Platoon didn't conduct operations with Helmand until September. Aeonx (talk) 07:13, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
To add to that, I think it's odd that a supposedly comprehensive investigation by the ABC did not even identify the November Platoon was, according to Russell, not even conducting operation in Helmand until September, and yet uses the dates June-July for the FOI request (which is a period when the Platoon has only just deployed, and had not even started conducting operations!). As per the cited Herald Sun article, the published criticism is that the ABC's timelines do not make sense. Aeonx (talk) 07:19, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of the date range in the FOI, the report states mid-2012 and September is in the range. I believe you have consistently shown bias towards Russell’s POV and exhibiting false equivalence, which is inappropriate here given the need for encyclopaedic neutrality. TruthAndContext (talk) 08:00, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]


I've just popped back to here to find the criticism section to have entirely blown out of proportion on a page that is supposed to be dedicated to an author. The page should primarily be about the author, his career, works, etc. While I think it may be appropriate to briefly note that some people may dispute the author's reporting, I believe it is neither encyclopedic nor appropriate to include an extended debate on the nuances of a critique of a single topic a journalist reports on, on a page that is intended to describe the journalist themselves. This single critique is now the largest component on the page and is entirely out of balance with the purpose of the page as a biography. The critique is also based almost entirely on the testimony of a person who is alleged to have some connection to the crimes in question. I therefore propose the following steps.

  • That the reporting around Australian war crimes in Afghanistan be described on the War crimes in Afghanistan page.
  • That any debate about the accuracy of this reporting primarily occur on that page (and its talk page).
  • That the Mark Willacy page be edited to return it to an appropriately balanced biography page.

I will attempt to fairly implement those edits now. The removed material from the Willacy page has been copied to:Talk:War crimes in Afghanistan. If a reversion to the situation I describe above is sought for the Mark Willacy page, then I think it is approaching time to bring in a neutral third party to consider just how much of this material is appropriate on a biography page. It may also be worth considering the establishment of a Heston Russel page considering his new status as a leader of an Australian political party, and his increasing public profile. Sparticusmaximus (talk) 07:16, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Sparticus, I think there was definitely WP:UNDUE in the criticism section. LibStar (talk) 02:46, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Just adding for the record that a Heston Russell page has now been established by another user. Sparticusmaximus (talk) 06:02, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reporting of threats against Willacy

Are these reports worth including?

LibStar (talk) 02:46, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

These events certainly appear connected to Willacy's reporting on war crimes, so could potentially be included in the controversy section? Sparticusmaximus (talk) 04:56, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism of Afghan War Crimes reporting

I'm short on time. I'll try get on later to articulate but Willacy's reporting of alleged Afghan War Crimes and his subsequent book and news articles about it are widely reported. The Mark Willacy article is incomplete and unbalanced without this important biographical information and view. It needs to be restored in some form. Aeonx (talk) 19:59, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In some form, sure, but previously the content was overly-long and mainly referenced to primary sources. At this point it's probably good to hash out what should be included here rather than have a back-and-forth on the article itself. Primefac (talk) 07:37, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The section had already been hashed out. I'm not clear what the issue was. Length was OK. Mix of different sources used. Suggest restoring the content until it's clear what the problem(s) is, and it's tagged. Appreciate bold edits but that's not the way wiki editing works. Should be reverted and revised until there is consensus. If you like, I'm happy to compromise and have you to propose something here, otherwise I'll restore it. Aeonx (talk) 13:14, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ovinus has requested a discussion on the talk page, so clearly that-which-was-hashed need re-hashing. Primefac (talk) 12:20, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The way I see it, based on what I've seen from the sources discussed below, is that this is a three-sentence paragraph:
  • He reported on the story
  • Complaints were filed
  • ABC makes their statement, people react.
The third point might be able to be split into two sentences, but "After ABC released a statement claiming no fault on their end,..." would be my thought for the first half of a single sentence. We don't need a breakdown of every retraction, apology, and correction they made, though obviously if the legal battle gets concluded or new events happen those can be added in as well. Primefac (talk) 14:19, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is acceptable to me. Ovinus (talk) 14:51, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your entire argument here appears to hinge on "man accused of involvement in alleged war crimes claims he isn't a war criminal". Regardless of the truth of that particular matter, it is irrelevant to the biography of a journalist who reported the former. I raised this issue on this very talk page almost a year ago. Controversies about the ADF involvement in war crimes belongs on the more relevant page about the conflict such as War crimes in Afghanistan, rather than the biography page of the person who reported on them. Sparticusmaximus (talk) 20:52, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Just to split this from the above, here are the sources used before the paragraph was removed.

  1. Mark Willacy; Alexandra Blucher; Dan Oakes (21 October 2020). "Australian soldiers killed prisoner because he could not fit on aircraft, American marine says". ABC News. Australian Broadcasting Corporation. Retrieved 14 November 2021.
  2. Audience and Consumer Affairs (29 March 2022). "Audience and Consumer Affairs Report on ABC Investigations story about Australian Special Forces in Afghanistan". Australian Broadcasting Corporation. Retrieved 19 October 2022.
  3. Fordham, Ben (29 March 2022). "EXCLUSIVE | ABC apologises over sloppy war crimes reporting". 2GB. Nine Entertainment. Retrieved 11 October 2022.
  4. Peter van Olsen (1 November 2020). "Australian Army Commando Hits Back At Allegations Of Misconduct In Afghanistan". YouTube. The Project. Retrieved 14 November 2021.
  5. "Letter to the ABC". Veteran Support Force. 25 October 2021. Retrieved 24 November 2021.

Numbers 1 and 2 are from ABC, 3 is a radio station basically just copying ABC's press release, 4 is a primary source (interview with the subject of the article that kicked this whole thing off), as is 5 (in prose form). In other words, we have 4 of the 5 sources being primary, with the fifth giving almost no extra information anyway. For something like this to be "a story" we really should have it flipped, in that maybe a reference or two be primary but the majority being from independent sources. Primefac (talk) 12:20, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source 3 is not just copying the ABC press release, it's independently reporting on it as an event (secondary source). Source 4 also is not a primary source, yes it contains some primary content but it's ultimately just a news outlet reporting as a secondary source. There are other sources available on this topic: [4], [5], [6], [7]. This isn't a medical or scientific article, we don't need meta-analysis and secondary studies. The sources could be improved but there is more than enough diversity with others available to add as required. Aeonx (talk) 14:05, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's great. Those are also new to me. Why did we need a half-dozen primary sources when those exist? Primefac (talk) 14:16, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ping and for finding more. My main objection is that most of the sources, strangely enough, seem to minimize Willacy's role. Looking at the sources listed by Primefac: [1] is the troubling article itself. [2] mentions his name twice, once with relevance to this case (ABC News rejects Mr Russell’s claims about the content of his conversation with Mark Willacy at a Brisbane bookshop on 28 September 2021) and once in a fairly irrelevant way (The lead reporter, Mark Willacy, has won a Gold Walkley for his reporting on alleged war crimes). [3] fails to mention Willacy. [4] is primary and I haven't watched it yet. [5] is self-published, although it mentions him once. Of these new sources: 9News mentions him once at the very end (Investigative journalists Joshua Robertson and Mark Willacy have also been named in the lawsuit); the Lawyerly source is inaccessible to me; Epoch Times is a poor source. The last source mentions Willacy at the very beginning and several more times throughout.
With the last source, I am no longer opposed to a mention, and of course if you have more sources which do emphasize Willacy's role, then those should be added. We can hash out the details of presentation here. If anywhere, I think more in-depth coverage of this controversy belongs in the ABC article, rather than this biography. Ovinus (talk) 14:48, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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