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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 03ElecBerg (talk | contribs) at 16:40, 8 February 2023 (→‎Further boycotts: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Controversy

If discussion is needed on the point of controversy as a valid section within this article, Video Games which also have these sections:

The controversial reception is sourced, from multiple reputable sources and could easily be sourced by dozens more. No matter someone's opinion on the topic or on if Wikipedia should detail critical reception, everything posted in this section at this time is factually accurate information.

- DavefaceFMS (t) 21:02, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I mean I think the first one has to do with a person rather than the game as a whole, although the second point is actually notable. Although maybe the issue is that an entire section does not need to be dedicated to controversies. 2603:7000:E43F:9867:11DA:9461:A44D:C204 (talk) 22:57, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The person in question was the Lead designer of the game for the majority of it's production. Someone in a senior leadership role for the majority of game production sharing these kinds of views which may have influenced design choices is notable in my eyes. It was certinly noteworthy enough for multiple large news outlets focused on the gaming industry to make articles on.
For your second point Reception may be a better heading. Once the game is released the section regarding reception will be vastly expanded as always so making this a sub heading in advance of that reception makes sense to me.
I'm hopeful WB or Avalanche will make more public statements on both so the information can be more balanced. - DavefaceFMS (t) 09:59, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why isn't written that Jon Stewart, who caused the controversy of the Goblins, specified few later that he was just joking and he didn't actually expect people to really take him seriously and doesn't want Harry Potter to be censored for this?151.18.172.46 (talk) 19:35, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Could you come up with reliable sources that back up your claim? soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 20:36, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be more interested in hearing how the Daily Dot or Vice can be considered reliable sources when citing controversial subject matter. Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources is rather clear on the matter with regards to the former, and the latter, Vice is just simply borderline unreliable. This article is a mess, especially the reception section and should be rewritten entirely. Kcmastrpc (talk) 22:11, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Are these enough? https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/pop-culture-news/jon-stewart-clarifies-comments-made-depiction-goblins-harry-potter-rcna11013

https://news.sky.com/story/jon-stewart-insists-i-do-not-think-jk-rowling-is-antisemitic-following-harry-potter-comments-12509903

https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/movies/jon-stewart-clarifies-harry-potter-190828932.html

https://www.scotsman.com/news/world/jon-stewart-says-he-did-not-accuse-jk-rowling-of-antisemitism-3515860?amp=

https://variety.com/2022/film/news/jon-stewart-clarifies-jk-rowling-antisemitism-1235147292/ 151.38.83.215 (talk) 03:47, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I haven't got the time today to look at the sources, I'll try to go over them tomorrow. I've sent you a welcome message, if you like to contribute, you can also create an account and be part of the Wikipedia community. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 09:17, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

☺😊151.18.188.146 (talk) 20:17, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding recent deletions of the reception section

As I've listed above controversy surrounding a game within the context of it's public reception both before and after launch is standard practice.

It's our responsibility to remove bias and edit in good faith, opinions on the controversy do not factor into it's relevance. As you can see from my past edits I have been updating not just regarding reception but with information from the game trailer and sourcing information previously unsourced.

The section we are discussing is not the plot of the game, though the plot overview has been revealed, but the reception it has received. Breaking down into two matters of controversy at this time. This area will be expanded significantly after game release with reviews and ratings but currently the only availible information is what is presented.

The first issue of Troy Leavitt is widely reported and sourced. Only some sources are shown within this article as to not over source the article.

The second of antisemitism, as the first, has been widely reported on as a matter of interest.

Both issues have shared as much press and interest at this stage as the game trailer release. A dozen more sources could be added to the list easily.

That is the facts being presented within the article section. This reception is not a speculative event, a prediction or a rumour about possible reactions but a past and ongoing notable response. Even if the entire plot of the game were to be changed to remove the goblin race entirely at this stage the criticism and controversy in direct relation tot his game will have still occurred and still hold relevance to the critical reception of the game before release.

  • Mr. Rapture I'd invite your input as noted on your page as you clearly feel passionately about this subject.

- DavefaceFMS (t) 20:19, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For anyone planning to add content to the controvery session, please focus on the controversy surrounding the game, not the controversies surrounding the franchise, the use of goblins in the franchise, or JK Rowling herself. OceanHok (talk) 11:52, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I completely support having a controversy section, especially given the widespread media coverage of the criticism. That said, I think we should remove the line "the European origins of goblins originating from 'the ghosts of dead Jews'". The JSTOR source given for this line doesn't support the claim: the article goes into a lot of detail desccribing this (accessible via the Wikipedia Library). The Jewish ghosts are Cornwall specific folklore related to mining spirits they called 'Tommyknockers', not general European folklore surrounding goblins – there is nothing I could find that links anti-semitism and goblins before the Harry Potter books. None of the news articles linked to above mention any folklore links to goblins as Jewish ghosts, so this line and use of this source seem very misleading – these claims of a folklore origin of goblin anti-semitism don't seem to be part of the controversy as far as I can tell, and come across as WP:SYNTHesis (or WP:OR). I think it's best to stick to the media coverage of the incident: there's more than enough there to expand this section to cover all aspects of the controversy without this. ‑‑YodinT 12:23, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Rsj1992: see my comment above: the line about the "European origins of goblins" being "the ghosts of dead Jews" isn't supported by the source provided, and isn't covered anywhere in media coverage of the controversy. Please explain why you reverted my removal of the line, and provide sources that support the statement if you want to keep it in the article. ‑‑YodinT 18:31, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

List the differences between PS4 and PS5 versions

  • PS5 is USD $10 more
  • [Request to fill out some more details here]

Asherkobin (talk) 23:34, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff common rooms

The Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff common rooms aren’t “previously unseen”. Detailed drawings of them exist on Pottermore. Lipglosschaos (talk) 01:33, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Music

Hi @DavefaceFMS:, concerning your reinstatement, developer updates on YouTube are WP:PRIMARY sources. We need independent coverage. I've tagged it with {{bcn}}. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 15:49, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

While the information was provided by Alan Tew the game Director and Boston Madsen, Senior artist for the studio it was verified.
The product was shown, in video form to over a million viewers over the past three days. All that has been given in the article is statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source as linked in the original reference.
XpectoGo by way of interviewing the primary sources and then publishing his own thoughts on his own channel. They are a reputable sources having reported on video game content over the past two decades. So his own channel may be best as a secondary reference point. - DavefaceFMS 16:35, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @DavefaceFMS:, my apologies! I didn't realise the YouTube video was coverage by GameSpot, which is of course very much a reliable source independent of the developer. I've removed the bcn tag. Thanks for your work and happy editing! soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 19:52, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reception

The third paragraph does not really work for me (at least the first two sentences). The second source has nothing to do with Legacy but only with J.K.Rowlings views ([1]). The Forbes source is by a contributor and not by its staff, therefore i am not sure if it qualifies for wikipedia ([2]). Lastly, I am not sure about that Mary Sue page. Looks like a fan page, but maybe someone else can verify this ([3]). Vestigium Leonis (talk) 21:03, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see there's already a discussion going on. Dionysos1993 removed them recently. It's this part:

Many have called for a boycott[1] of the game because of J. K. Rowling's transphobia and online behavior.[2] Rowling has criticized those boycotting the game.[3]

The first statement, "many have called for a boycott" is referenced by "The Hogwarts Legacy Controversy, Explained" by The Mary Sue. This bit says "In the two years since, she’s become increasingly vocal about her hatred for trans people (in particular, trans women), and millions of Potter fans have called for a total boycott of any official products that could put more money in her pocket." That's extrapolating, 'fans call for total boycott' and 'Hogwarts Legacy is part of the IP they want to see boycotted'. At the end of the article though, "So, the short answer to whether you should ignore the Hogwarts Legacy controversy and buy the game anyway is: No." - which is a call to boycott the game. The Mary Sue looks like a legit website; WP:VG/RS list it as a "situational source". So I'd change the phrasing, "some have called for..." or "some fans of Harry Potter have called for..." The Mary Sue also goes into Rowling's opinions on transpeople and the anti-Semitic tropes as well, so the sources can definitely be used to support both claims.
The second part, "(...) of the game because of J. K. Rowling's transphobia and online behavior" is referenced by "A Complete Breakdown of the J.K. Rowling Transgender-Comments Controversy". But there's nothing at all about Hogwarts Legacy in the piece, which is rather long. The only thing that comes close, is the news that there's a TV series in development, with tweets of people reacting negatively ("JK Rowling will profit from any and all new Harry Potter-related media. If you spend money consuming that media, you are giving JK Rowling money. That's it. That's the tweet."). That's WP:SYNTH to keep that in, as Glamour doesn't report on Hogwarts Legacy but on the controversy at large.
The last line, "Rowling has criticized those boycotting the game" is referenced by "JK Rowling Mocks Trans Gamer For ‘Hogwarts Legacy’ Comments". In the Forbes piece, Rowling takes aim at a gamer that said "I will not begrudge anyone their love of past works or thing they already own that they take comfort in. I own the first 9 movies and all 7 books myself. But any support of something like Hogwarts Legacy is harmful". 1) they didn't state that they would boycott the game (we can assume, but that's our interpretation) and 2) Rowling went after that person, not after more people. So can we use this bit? I think we need to rephrase it again. Not because of this twitter conflict, but because the developer and publisher are trying to distance themselves from Rowling. And more importantly, the last line is "But those same fans have to reckon with Rowling who is now actively weighing into the “should you buy/play Hogwarts Legacy?” debate, and making a pretty good case that maybe no, you shouldn’t" is another call to boycott the game though.
I suggest the following:

Due to Rowling's statements on transpeople, some fans of Harry Potter have called for a boycott of the intellectual property in the past. The Mary Sue[4] and Forbes have called for a boycott of Hogwarts Legacy.[5]

Leaving out the Glamour piece, mentioning the call for a boycott by fans and specifically stating that The Mary Sue and Forbes have called for a boycott on Hogwarts Legacy. Thoughts? soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 11:07, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I would propably do a minor change to this:

Due to Rowling's political views on transgender rights, some fans of Harry Potter have called for a boycott of the intellectual property in the past. The Mary Sue[6] and Forbes have called for a boycott of Hogwarts Legacy.[7]

This would align with Rowlings other page about her views. One last thing: I assume that being a contributor on Forbes is accepted on Wikipedia? I do not know exactly how it is treated at Forbes, but on other pages the contributors are not really reliable (comparable to user reviews on Metacritic or RT, for example). If the Forbes source is acceptable, I would agree on keeping this as well, then. Dionysos1993 (talk) 13:38, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Actually no, I read the Forbes source again word by word and it does not call for a boycott at all. It only reflects the views of one random twitter user (I could not find anything with substance about the person Jessie Earl except some writing) and does not add anything new. Furthermore, Forbes states that the articles of senior contributors are "Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own" (visible once you read the note next to senior contributors on the article), so it is the viewpoint of one single person and not Forbes itself. I would exclude the Forbes source completely and keep it like this:

Due to Rowling's political views on transgender rights, some fans of Harry Potter have called for a boycott of the intellectual property in the past. In December 2022, The Mary Sue called for a boycott of Hogwarts Legacy, amid ongoing controversies regarding Rowling's views and accusations of perpetuating antisemitic tropes.[8]

Thoughts? Dionysos1993 (talk) 20:11, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What does Forbes mean with 'contributor'? Tassi's page states "I’ve been writing about video games, television and movies for Forbes for over 10 years, and you may have seen my reviews on Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic" and when I look up "tassi" in the search bar, I get 12,325 results. Tassi also has an OpenCritic page. Tassi is also used extensively as a reliable source on other articles on Wikipedia. Looks like to me they're the real deal and not some rando who submitted a piece. The Forbes piece, before the update, ends with "Hogwarts Legacy is due out on February 10, 2023, after a number of delays, and at least on the surface, it really does look like a Harry Potter fan’s dream. But those same fans have to reckon with Rowling who is now actively weighing into the “should you buy/play Hogwarts Legacy?” debate, and making a pretty good case that maybe no, you shouldn’t." We can rephrase that "Paul Tassi of Forbes stated that "maybe people shouldn't buy Hogwarts Legacy due to the controversy". soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 15:30, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I see. In that case, if it already is used extensively here, I dont mind. Seems like it is seen as citable. My final thoughts on using the sources:

Due to Rowling's political views on transgender rights, some fans of Harry Potter have called for a boycott of the intellectual property in the past. In December 2022, The Mary Sue called for a boycott of Hogwarts Legacy, amid ongoing controversies regarding Rowling's views and accusations of perpetuating antisemitic tropes.[9] Paul Tassi of Forbes further stated that "maybe people shouldn't buy Hogwarts Legacy due to the controversy".[10]

Vestigium Leonis (talk) 16:21, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I readded the discussed sources to the article and shortened it a little. In case no one disagrees, this should be done for now. Vestigium Leonis (talk) 12:01, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"and online behaviour" - NPOV issue aside, this was simply unacceptable language for an encyclopaedia such as this. This isn't Tumblr, we're not interested in first-person, off-the-cuff critiques of JKR or the controversy surrounding a video game. Thank you for resolving this.--SinoDevonian (talk) 19:30, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Jabota gisum, please join the discussion here. I am of the opinion that Tassi can be used as a source. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 11:15, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reposting this from my talk page: I suggest you have a look at the in-depth discussions linked at WP:FORBESCON (doing so should also answer your question, "What does Forbes mean with 'contributor'?"); the problem is the lack of editorial oversight within the Forbes contributor system, and it doesn't matter if the contributor has been doing it prolifically or for a long time. Having an Opencritic page doesn't make one a reliable source as WP:RSP states on both Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes that the reviewers that they track "are not automatically reliable for their reviews". Also, I'm pretty sure "established subject matter expert" only refers to Roger Ebert-level figures and not people who are essentially bloggers posting their stuff under a high-profile domain name with zero editorial oversight. (Although I'm willing to admit that WP:SPS is frustratingly vague on this.) I'm sure there are less iffy sources out there discussing this controversy, and this one dude's opinions and hunches being removed isn't going to destroy the article. Jabota gisum (talk) 13:01, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree on your take. I had my suspicions on the Forbes sources anyways and this makes sense. The way it is written now should be sufficient. Vestigium Leonis (talk) 20:05, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi everyone, I'm afraid I still haven't got the time to properly go into sources and discussion. I've got three month old baby sleeping on my chest as I'm typing this. Sorry for the delay! Also, sorry, forgot the reflist talk template. Happy editing everybody! soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 15:30, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Puc, Samantha. "The Hogwarts Legacy Controversy, Explained". The Mary Sue. Retrieved 23 December 2022.
  2. ^ Gardner, Abby. "A Complete Breakdown of the J.K. Rowling Transgender-Comments Controversy". Glamour. Retrieved 23 December 2022.
  3. ^ Tassi, Paul. "JK Rowling Mocks Trans Gamer For 'Hogwarts Legacy' Comments". Forbes. Retrieved 23 December 2022.
  4. ^ Puc, Samantha. "The Hogwarts Legacy Controversy, Explained". The Mary Sue. Retrieved 23 December 2022.
  5. ^ Tassi, Paul. "JK Rowling Mocks Trans Gamer For 'Hogwarts Legacy' Comments". Forbes. Retrieved 23 December 2022.
  6. ^ Puc, Samantha. "The Hogwarts Legacy Controversy, Explained". The Mary Sue. Retrieved 23 December 2022.
  7. ^ Tassi, Paul. "JK Rowling Mocks Trans Gamer For 'Hogwarts Legacy' Comments". Forbes. Retrieved 23 December 2022.
  8. ^ Puc, Samantha. "The Hogwarts Legacy Controversy, Explained". The Mary Sue. Retrieved 23 December 2022.
  9. ^ Puc, Samantha. "The Hogwarts Legacy Controversy, Explained". The Mary Sue. Retrieved 23 December 2022.
  10. ^ Tassi, Paul. "JK Rowling Mocks Trans Gamer For 'Hogwarts Legacy' Comments". Forbes. Retrieved 23 December 2022.

Cast and characters

With the majority of the cast and characters now announced (https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20230111005322/en/Warner-Bros.-Games-and-Avalanche-Software-Reveal-Voice-Over-Talent-for-Hogwarts-Legacy), it would be good to update the Plot section with a Characters paragraph. Would do so, but article page is still semi-protected.Bo27abc (talk) 15:13, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Bo27abc, a belated welcome to Wikipedia. I see you've registered quite some time ago, but haven't been very active. Better start editing, with some edits your name you could've done it yourself.
To answer your question, I refer you to WP:VGSCOPE point No. 11, cast lists: "Generally speaking, a list of the actors providing voices, likenesses or motion capture acting performances for video game characters is not appropriate. If mention of an actor has received substantial coverage in independent reliable sources, typically the actor will be mentioned in the prose of the development section."
Since the cast list has just been announced, I'd say that it's too soon to mention it specifically. A mention in the development section would be a good idea though. If you didn't see my previous reply, I'm cradling a three month old while typing this on my phone, so actively contributing to the article is not feasible for me right now. Thanks, and happy editing. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 15:44, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 13 January 2023

Recommending addition of a "voice cast" subsection as voice actors for the game have recently started to be revealed. Telstar500 (talk) 15:27, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My bad, hadn't seen the talk section on here already Telstar500 (talk) 15:29, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2023

The page says that the character Amit Thakkar is played by Asif Ali. Whilst this is the name of the actor playing the character, a link is provided to a South Indian actor of the same name's Wikipedia page.

This is not the correct Asif Ali. The Asif Ali playing the character instead refers to a western actor who has appeared in roles such as on wandavision etc, and does not have a Wikipedia page (as far as I am aware). 92.238.61.70 (talk) 03:23, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done, removed link. Cannolis (talk) 06:54, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Further boycotts

There have been boycotts of the game on social media, mainly due to the political views of Rowling, which have even gone as far as making a website dedicated to hunting for streamers that played the game as part of a Twitch stream. YouFoundSharpe2 (talk) 03:18, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like a lot of streamers are getting harassed by these left wing extremists. [stay on topic, please] TheDethklokGuy (talk) 18:40, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's an odd assumption. Please keep your political leanings to yourself, TheDethklokGuy, on talk pages and in articles. One comment of yours has already been revdel'ed. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 19:29, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Soetermans, To clarify, I was referring to articles like these: [4], [5], [6], [7] that I've been seeing. TheDethklokGuy (talk) 19:51, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Still, people are being harassed for playing a video game on such an extreme level. Isn't that worth at least a brief mention? Traptor12 (talk) 20:55, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If there are reliable sources available, it should be included. I noticed this behaviour as well and since there is a controversy section now, it would make sense. Hate is hate, no matter which "side" it is. Vestigium Leonis (talk) 22:18, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It can be. The only problem I see is that I don't see what the scope would be. There's no way to document everything because it would be totally undue, so what do we document? Everyone's complaints, the division that exists, or only specific instances of harassment against streamers? We should probably determine that first. I already find the controversy section a bit long. Prinsgezinde (talk) 22:34, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Then how did we document people boycotting this game to begin with? Not to mention the allegations before hand. Also the proof for possible future reference is right here:https://twitter.com/iamsamgibbs/status/1622570858626617344 Traptor12 (talk) 23:07, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's not an answer. It is mentioned very briefly, but the proposal is to go deeper into it. I'm saying it would be wise to form some sort of consensus on how deep. Prinsgezinde (talk) 05:12, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, we should cover the Rowling bit pretty heavily, given that it's an inseparable part of the game's reception. Big outlets like Polygon and TheGamer boycotted the game, and tons of sources covered and explained the controversy, and nearly every review has a big "J.K. Rowling Bad But Please Ignore That" disclaimer. It's also caused things like a dev response. So yeah, I think write more on it. DecafPotato (talk) 06:11, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do not believe the controversies section should be tagged with an "expansion" tag. Nonetheless I have added the response from the devs per WP:NPOV and WP:DUE. I do hope this section would keep everything brief. Everything that is not "core" to the game should be precise and limit to around one or two sentences at most. OceanHok (talk) 15:53, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just saying that innocent people and Harry Potter fans are being harassed by extremists and maybe wikipedia shouldn't put criticism in the same league as harassment. An online encyclopedia shouldn't be politically biased. Traptor12 (talk) 16:40, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@TheDethklokGuy I don't want J.K. Rowling, a notorious transphobe, to get more money so she can more easily influence the removal of my basic human rights as a trans woman. How is that left wing extremism? For the record, I don't want people to get harrassed over this, but with how much it's been drilled in people's heads that the money goes to Rowling, I think it's understandable that people are upset. [stay on topic, please] LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 23:28, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So .. you do not want to get harassed yourself but talk it down when its a group of people that you do not care about? Sounds like a double standard to me. [stay on topic, please] Anyways, back to the topic, I would simply wait this out a couple of days and see how the situation is covered in other sources. Vestigium Leonis (talk) 23:55, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Vestigium Leonis seems you would be well educated by https://en.wikipedia.org//wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance your take is rather undeveloped and well refuted [stay on topic, please] 171.50.246.162 (talk) 02:17, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Composer

Score is written by Chuck E. Myers via Big Idea Misuc Productions (can bee seen in the credits). Alexander Horowitz is one of the outside AUDIO contractors. 188.234.17.237 (talk) 22:51, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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