Talk:Juneteenth

Why Galveston?

Why is Galveston any more important than any other place in TX, and why is TX more important than any other state? I hear colloquially that Galveston was the LAST place the proclamation reached -- is that true? If so, it needs to be made clearer in the article.

At present, article makes it sound like Galveston is simply the place whose commemoration CAUGHT ON -- steamrolling myriad other cities and towns who had their own dates to commemorate.

In fact, the Emancipation Day article indicates that 7 other states + DC, PR & VI *officially* celebrate other dates. So what's to become of those? Are they synching those up to June 19 now, or is everyone having 2 separate days?

Seems a very basic question but neither this article nor the Emancipation Day one addresses it, AFAICT. Anyone? 2601:19C:527F:A680:29B4:B41C:75A8:70BA (talk) 23:22, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

yes, it was the first place it was really observed, as the article says. Slatersteven (talk) 09:46, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

so it is a myth that galveston was the last place originally reached? they simply grabbed the spotlight first?

what about the other issue, does no one know? those 7++ states with *other* state holidays to celebrate this -- are they now scrapping those in favor of juneteenth? 2601:19C:527F:A680:3C52:2BA8:B31C:FE0 (talk) 19:01, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

No, read the article and it will explain it. Slatersteven (talk) 09:41, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

so your FIRST reply was wrong then?

ok, got it! 2601:19C:527F:A680:5DBA:E21:B23A:F839 (talk) 09:34, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

NO, it was not. "Originating in Galveston". Slatersteven (talk) 11:52, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

"Recognized"

that map is wildly misleading. what does it mean that 47 states "recognized" juneteenth, if it was not a legal holiday in 46 of them?! so some state official read a statement and possibly raised a flag, big whoop. they do that for gay pride day, st patrick's day, national secretaries day, fraternal twins day, world pizza day, caramel macchiato day, who knows what.

it gives a state far too much credit to put them into a category like "2000-2009" based solely on that. i am in one such state, and until 2018 or so, barely anyone outside of the 10-15 activists running the flag-raising had ever even HEARD of juneteenth. i would not say that the state "recognized it" in any significant way until maybe 2019.

the last line in that section "as of 2020 only Texas had adopted the holiday as a paid holiday for state employees" says it all. in other words TX "recognized" it; the other 46 did not.

a passing mention of announcements or declarations from those other states is ok, but don't categorize them as "recognition". that implies something more. 2601:19C:527F:A680:29B4:B41C:75A8:70BA (talk) 23:22, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Recognized comes from the Congressional Research Service, all 50 states have done so. [1] As of June 2022, it is now a paid state holiday in 18 of those states. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:53, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

so it has only been recognized AS A HOLIDAY in 18 states! what has CRS "recognized" it as in the other 32++, then? a cute word?? 2601:19C:527F:A680:F1CE:7340:3D2B:CB58 (talk) 09:49, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

The article covers two types of holiday: commemorative/ceremonial, and paid. People actually worked hard to get state's to recognize the day as a commemorative/ceremonial holiday, and they succeeded in all 50 states (leading to the federal holiday), and some have then succeeded in getting it paid in states, and no doubt are now working hard to get the paid holiday in other states. You may view the commemorative as "nothing" but your view is 1) irrelevant to this article and 2) does not change the facts. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:45, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Alanscottwalker: actually, pls clarify what exactly a "paid state holiday" is? forget special cases (state vs federal workers), aren't private employers required to make any fed holiday a day off or else pay overtime? so what diff does it make whether a state adds "yeah, u have to do that" as well?

i get that not all state holidays are federal, but in the other direction aren't all federal ones mandated nationwide, whether or not individual states wish to symbolically (redundantly) make them "state" holidays? 2601:19C:527F:A680:F1CE:7340:3D2B:CB58 (talk) 09:49, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

We do not say (in that map) it is recognised as a holiday we say " holiday or commemoration". Slatersteven (talk) 09:47, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Those questions are beyond this article but I think in general, the answer is not necessarily (perhaps ask at the help desk or even the federal holiday article). But I gather, all a Federal holiday does is basically close the federal government (with pay for federal workers), private organizations then may also close as customary (usually Financial Markets and Banks) but I don't think there is a general law about it (there may be some separate regulatory federal laws that deal with banks and markets), and pay arrangements are up to private orgs or their pay contracts (in some cases union contracts). Similarly all a paid state holiday does is basically close the state government (with pay) (but that may differ state-to-state), but the federal law can't force the state gov to close (but in some states, their state law may mandate they follow the federal holiday, and again in some state's state-workers are covered by union contracts) and private orgs can do what they will. At this point, all I can really say is consult labor lawyers for a real answer. Maybe there is some labor lawyer that will come along here (with sources) but my guess is 1) go elsewhere for answers; 2) declared paid holidays probably lead to substantial pressure on private organizations to do something (in the case of federal law, across the nation), and 3) the effects of state laws and what they do varies state to state. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:29, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

the article on st patrick's day in the US begins by stating that it is only a legal holiday in 2 places in the country. they mention a couple dozen other places where various parades and proclamations have happened over the years, but to spread them out in a chart/map as if they're important in their own right is a bit much.

juneteenth did not have even THAT much official status until 2020. yes, we do use "holiday" casually to include minor commemorations like valentine's day and halloween, but i think most native speakers make a distinction with "actual" holidays. which juneteenth has only become in the past 2-3 years.

how about a map showing when (those 18) states did THAT? as in, dec 2020...sep 2021...feb 2022...etc. especially with respect to the dates for the federal version being a) proposed and b) implemented.

those other dates CRS lists from 2005 etc are just TRIVIA. why are we wasting anyone's time putting them in a map? 98.216.184.137 (talk) 11:14, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

No, not trivia. The CRS compiled that list before the federal holiday was adopted (as was the map) as it is highly relevant. The CRS did so because it is part of the history of the holiday, and the history of official recognition. Moreover, these recognitions were already being complied in newspapers and encyclopedia in the early 2000's (see the sources) because it is highly relevant to the history. (Even in your St. Patrick Day example, it would be silly to at some point in the future to erase past recognitions -- new recognitions, should they come, would be added). I'm fine with you or someone else creating another map to add to the article, but it will not and does not replace the current map. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:24, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

those dates are only "highly relevant" as a curiosity to see when each state started becoming "vaguely aware" of juneteenth. the key date is when, and if, they recognized it AS A HOLIDAY, not when the recognized it as one of a thousand things to make some silly proclamation about.

by your logic, why don't we compile all of the "earliest mentions" of st patrick's day (1890s..1920s...etc) into a map?

i note that valentine's day, halloween, groundhog day, flag day, etc. are all treated quite similarly. none of them wraps state "recognition" dates up into a chart/map. pre-2020 juneteenth should be treated likewise.

to put it bluntly, it is belittling to the ACTUAL holiday it became to imply that previous mentions of it as a vague pseudo-"holiday" meant much of anything. heck, not even the MLK day article does that! 2601:19C:527F:A680:3C52:2BA8:B31C:FE0 (talk) 18:53, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Encyclopedia subjects go by what the sources talk about, not by however anyone thinks the world should be. The sources for the Juneteenth article, for decades, have been covering these recognitions, and so this article will reflect that (not anyone's personal ideas about trivia, nor to satisfy anyone's personal ideas about what they personally were aware of, nor their personal peculiar ideas about belittling). Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:06, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

red herring city!

st patrick's day article is chock full of the same sort of sourced info and dates that u speak of. so is the halloween article. so is the MLK article. the only diff is that it is laid out in prose form, whereas here certain editors seek to spotlight it in a attention-grabbing MAP...lending UNDUE IMPORTANCE to the day's pre-2020 status.

this is only occurring in this article, not for any of those other holidays. remind me again why juneteenth in 2005, say, was more important than MLK day? 2601:19C:527F:A680:3C52:2BA8:B31C:FE0 (talk) 07:47, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

How many of those had rolling acceptance over a period of 100 years or more? Slatersteven (talk) 09:42, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, and the Congressional Research Service on Juneteenth devotes like 20% or more of its page space to explication and a tabulation graph of what it calls these state recognitions -- this Wikipedia article by contrast does not devote nearly that much space, including, by comparison, its very small map graphic, as it summarizes -- in no way is it remotely possible to argue it is undue. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:15, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

define "rolling acceptance". i would note that there really has only been rolling "acceptance" outside of texas for 2-3 years now. there were rolling "mentions" and rolling "parades", etc. -- SIMILAR TO ST PAT'S DAY -- but when was the first actual "acceptance" anywhere? 2019, right?

i will concede ASW's other point, tho. if the CRS insists on using an alternate -- and misleading -- definition for "recognize", then who are we to correct it? i would contend that there are 32 states that still HAVEN'T recognized juneteenth --- any more than they have "recognized" st pat's day. or does CRS claim some nonzero number for that, too?

i also have to wonder if they apply the same logic to states "recognizing" same-sex marriage? are sympathic "declarations" over the years worth cataloging for states which still banned the practice? there's about a 15 year lag in most states before anything concrete ever happened.

once again, casual lay definition of "recognize" vs actual, legal, definition of "recognize". let's hope CRS never comments on taiwan! 2601:19C:527F:A680:916A:38D7:958A:AF7 (talk) 10:49, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Foreign outlook for this new holiday.

It should be noted that this isn't some ancient holiday and has only existed for a year. Juneteenth to anyone who doesn't know what it is (which is 99% of the world) would be presumed to be June 13th, not 19th, also. So some explanation as to why it's called Juneteenth when MANY teen numbers are in June would be helpful for those of us who are not American. It's a very American-centric thing, so it's perplexing to us. No one would think it's not the first Juneteenth but the SEVENTH teen in June that Americans are talking about. But further the confusion is that when researching this topic I'm told that this is a hundred year old celebration+ - when I know it isn't, no one I know has EVER heard of it before last year and suddenly we're bombarded with it all over the world. I get it's a bit Hallmark Holiday, but these things are confusing to foreigners wanting to find out more, it really doesn't help everything just claims it's from the 1800's when it's from 2021. 2001:8003:37B8:D900:5068:9C28:A404:F891 (talk) 03:06, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Read the article, please, it answers your questions. Slatersteven (talk) 09:09, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Not very well. Why not simply state what the date is right at the beginning? HiLo48 (talk) 10:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

"Juneteenth is a federal holiday in the United States commemorating the emancipation of enslaved African Americans. Deriving its name from combining "June" and "nineteenth", it is celebrated on the anniversary of General Order No. 3, issued by Major General Gordon Granger on June 19, 1865". Slatersteven (talk) 10:23, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for demonstrating that the actual date is NOT stated. The first sentence should simply say "Juneteenth is a federal holiday on June 19 in the United States..." HiLo48 (talk) 10:28, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

NO, rather we say what it means, which was kind of the question asked, why is it called Junteenth. Slatersteven (talk) 10:37, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand Americans. We need to say BOTH!!!!! This is simple. If you are going to write about a holiday, from scratch, FIRST, you state what what date it happens on, THEN, you explain why it's on the date, and why it has the name it has. I have had resistance to this obvious approach from Americans before, and I have no idea why. HiLo48 (talk) 21:11, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

I am not American, and have no issue understanding that "it is celebrated on the anniversary of General Order No. 3, issued by Major General Gordon Granger on June 19, 1865" means it is celebrated on June 19th. But fine if you really think we need to say it another way go ahead. Slatersteven (talk) 09:51, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Spread of Juneteenth.

Would it be fair to say that prior to 2021 less than 1% of people would have ever have heard of this? And less than 1% of that 1% would have 'celebrated' it as a holiday? I'm struggling here, I am starting to see this as revisionistic history being written into reality, or rather, reality being edited in real time by media and pseudoacademics online.

As an African-American I've never heard of this, yet it's been given this big back story as if somehow every black family I know is a pariah for not celebrating and knowing it. But it's a new invention that was pushed in 2021. Prior to that not one single person except maybe the most politically ideologically possessed black panther plotting a train station bombing to get back at the white man would ever have known it's name. I mean even it's name is an absurdity. June - teenth would imply the first teenth in June so June 13th. Nope. Maybe 14th? Nope. 15th, the third teenth in June? Nope. 19th. Abject nonsense.

It FEELS like a racist creation to make us seem like we're all low IQ. I can't be the only person who this doesn't sit right with, it truly feels like agitprop at this point invented just to gaslight the majority for the sake of a teeny tiny minority. 2001:8003:37B8:D900:50FD:2CD8:8930:2A5B (talk) 02:27, 30 May 2023 (UTC)