Talk:Lion

Central African Rainforest Zone and the Sahara Desert

I couldn't find anything regarding the following statement in the source mentioned: "In Africa, the range of the lion originally spanned most of the central African rainforest zone and the Sahara desert."

Maybe the sentence is meant to be the following, because that source particularly asserts the exact opposite: "The range of the lion originally spanned most of Africa except the central African rainforest zone and the Sahara desert." 82.222.98.119 (talk) 20:37, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

There is a problem with the use of 'originally' as this is an undefined baseline, and doesn't do justice to the changing climatic conditions of Africa and the Near East during the Holocene. The range of the lion has spanned most of Africa and the Near East during more favorable climatic conditions since the Last Glacial Maximum ~21ka. This has included drier, more open habitats in what is now the African Rainforest Zone, and wetter conditions during the mid-Holocene Green Sahara/Arabia. Lion range has contracted following afforestation of the Congo basin, desertification of the Sahara, and simultaneous increase in human pastoral practices. See Cooper et al., 2021. A kingdom in decline: Holocene range contraction of the lion (Panthera leo) modeled with global environmental stratification. https://peerj.com/articles/10504/ 195.195.244.20 (talk) 11:31, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Lion prey

What animals should be listed as prey for lions? LittleJerry (talk) 17:51, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

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Ishan87, please stop edit warring and discuss things here. Hayward and Kerley (2005) is a comprehensive literature review of studies on the lion's diet across its range. It states "Gemsbok, buffalo, wildebeest, giraffe and zebra are significantly preferred." Later in the article, there is a bar chart, and these five animals have black bars which means "species taken significantly more frequently than expected based on their availability". The impala's bar is unfilled, which means "species taken significantly less frequently than expected based on their availability". The kudu's is grey, meaning "species taken in accordance with their relative abundance". In other words, nothing special. Please don't make any more edits in regards to lion diet until you get a consensus. LittleJerry (talk) 22:20, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

And please be considerate of the sources. You can't just add text that is not supported by the cites like here and here. This is a featured article your being reckless with. LittleJerry (talk) 01:48, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Dude, u r the 1 who is warring for no reason. U started it and continuing it. The edits I did was not against the Wikipedia rulebook or against any of the references of the article. A Wikipedia article is supposed to provide facts and information based on more than a single source. Looks like you're relying heavily on only 1 source from 2005 and ignoring all other studies! Your claims about the chart isn't correct either. See here- https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0055182 There are citations of quite a few other sites and books. I do recommend u to read them. Gemsbok and giraffe aren't even their significant prey. Giraffe is usually avoided in most of the regions. Gemsbok is only preferred by the lions living in namib desert and kalahari region. Throughout southern Africa kudu is their important prey source and consists up to 15% of their diet. Impala coexist with lions through all of west and southern Africa and prefer same bushy habitat as lions. They're 4th most consumed prey by lions after wildebeest, cape buffalo, and zebra. I've watched 100s of lion. Documentaries, read countless wildlife journals and books about big cats, specially the lions. The edits you made is absurd and far from reality. Just bcz 1 source doesn't mention some antelopes it doesn't mean they're not common prey for lions. As for wild dogs, it is common knowledge that lions kill wild dogs, just like cheetah and leopard is mentioned without a citation. You claim for source but deleted the sources that was already there! you're instantly deleting the section that mentions the Lion's equations with wild dogs and spotted hyenas which has multiple citations in them. Clearly you're trying to dictate your opinion using this article and removing anything that you don't like, despite it having evidences. I suggest you to revert your edits and start studying about lions properly before making an edit again. Ishan87 (talk) 00:52, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Look up literature review, its not just one study, but a review of multiple studies. And it concludes that these animals are the most preferred. Maybe it is outdated, but we can't just list every single animal that lions eat. We have to make choices and draw a line. A meta-study listing the most preferred species range-wide seems the best way to go. I understand kudus and impalas are your favorite animals, but we can't cherrypick studies on local lion diets and say "lion eats these animals here, and these here, etc etc." An expectation would be the Indian population, since that's on a different continent. LittleJerry (talk)

I agree, we should list what they kill mostly overall, not everything they kill. If there are newer sources stating other species are killed more, list them here on the talk page for evaluation. FunkMonk (talk) 18:27, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

I too agree to limit the listed prey to the most preferred. Those who want to know more details, can download the refs from provided urls. Thanks, LittleJerry, for taking care of this ! Am sure you let me know when you need my help. – BhagyaMani (talk) 19:28, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Its not about help. Just state what you think. LittleJerry (talk) 19:30, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Fully agree to keeping the different prey species of the Indian pop, as these do not occur in Africa. Just checked the source Mukherjee et al. (1994) : domestic livestock made up only 15% of 40 scat samples, so not a 'significant' part. I'll check whether there is a later publication available. – BhagyaMani (talk) 21:55, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Agree that discussion of preferred prey from a high-quality review is much more informative than a scattershot listing of everything that at any time has been recorded as having been killed by a lion, picked from sources all over. Combative bluster does not make this approach more suited nor likely to be accepted by other editors. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 20:13, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Nothing to do with "favorite", don't talk absurd Jerry. I specifically mentioned Kudu and impala bcz I know for a fact that they are more preferred by lions than some listed here such as giraffe and gemsbok. Check the link I provided, the study is legit and authorized by researchers including Hayward himself. I do agree that all prey animals shouldn't be mentioned, but since it claims to be most preferred prey the claim has to be accurate. Ishan87 (talk) 13:03, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Its only one study in one area. Not enough. LittleJerry (talk) 17:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

WP:URFA/2020

File:Lion distribution.png's description says in the "source" field:

• "For the historic distribution, which will never be completely accurate, I used information here on Wikipedia with its own sources."
  • Looks like a case of WP:CIRCULAR.
• "The present distribution in Africa is based upon a map created by 'The African Lion Environmental Research Trust (ALERT) which can be viewed here. http://www.wildlifeextra.com/go/news/lion-reintroduction.html#cr. While I consider this a reliable source, I researched two countries in depth to verify this, Uganda and Namibia. The map is indeed correctly shaded in the National Parks where lions are present. However I did not include the 'Occasional' shaded areas as these are obviously much more ambiguous."
  • I tried to find an archived version of that map and couldn't. It now redirects to Petside, a website that "offers practical advice on how to best care for pets". Doesn't look like a reliable source to me.

Do we have a better map? A455bcd9 (talk) 14:47, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Maybe BhagyaMani can make a new map using this? LittleJerry (talk) 00:16, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

@LittleJerry: the IUCN could be used for the current distribution but not for the "historic distribution" as shown on the current map (File:Lion distribution.png). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:46, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

For the historic distribution I found the following sources:

• Figure 1 in Spatiotemporal Genetic Diversity of Lions Reveals the Influence of Habitat Fragmentation across Africa (the closest to our map)
• Figure 2 From: Phylogeographic Patterns in Africa and High Resolution Delineation of Genetic Clades in the Lion (Panthera leo)
• Fig 3 in The Decline in the Lion Population in Africa and Possible Mitigation Measures
• Figure in The Challenges and Relevance of Exploring the Genetics of North Africa's (Barbary Lion) and the Conservation of Putative Descendants in Captivity => for the most recent "historic" distribution

Other maps but probably not relevant here:

• Figure 1 in The Evolutionary Dynamics of the Lion Panthera leo Revealed by Host and Viral Population Genomics (nice map but authors are from a cancer institute, so not the subject-matter experts?)
• Figure 2 in Mitogenomics of the Extinct Cave Lion, Panthera spelaea (Goldfuss, 1810), Resolve its Position within the Panthera Cats => but late Pleistocene
• Figure 1 in Phylogeography of lions (Panthera leo ssp.) reveals three distinct taxa and a late Pleistocene reduction in genetic diversity: but this is the late Pleistocene period

Other maps but not WP:RS:

• [1] by WildCRU
• Figure 13 in Source: Panthera 2009 Comparison of national wildlife management strategies: What works where, and why?
• Lion Recovery Fund

I would use the first map (Figure 1 in Spatiotemporal Genetic Diversity of Lions Reveals the Influence of Habitat Fragmentation across Africa) or a combination of the first 4 maps. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:07, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Okay, but we still have to remove its historic range from some places like the Arabian Peninsula and the Caucasus. LittleJerry (talk) 18:32, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes for sure. I suggested we could use the above sources to create a new map.

A temporary easy solution is to upload this image as all images on PLOS are licensed under CC BY SA. I've just done it, I'll try to crop it now and replace the current map while waiting for a better version. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:53, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

OK, I tried... Removing all the labels is just too hard for me... a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:57, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, can. And think that a map based on latest IUCN RL data would be the best solution. BhagyaMani (talk) 17:46, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

@BhagyaMani thanks! Wouldn't it be good to add the historic range as well? Or maybe on another map? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 19:48, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

The next best option, imo, is to wait for an update of the iucn RL assessment. This is likely to be published next year, and then we can use the new map in the taxobox. Thoughts? – BhagyaMani (talk) 13:17, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes @BhagyaMani, I agree we could wait for the current distribution but:

1. What about the historic distribution? We don't need to wait for the IUCN for that
2. What about the unsourced map currently on this article? Should we keep it or remove it?

a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:19, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

The current unsourced map has been there for so loooong that we can keep it for few more months. Therefore imo: replace it by the new map, once available. – BhagyaMani (talk) 13:38, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree, thanks! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:11, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2023

119.73.102.3 (talk) 09:22, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Animal Battle

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 09:22, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

From the "Mane" section

This feature likely evolved to signal the fitness of males to females and not to protect the neck. During fights, including those involving maneless females and adolescents, the neck is not targeted as much as the face, back and hindquarters.

But couldn't this be evidence of the mane's protective qualities? Cats (including lions) generally kill their prey by attacking the neck, but male lions can't easily do that to each other because of all the hair in the way. So they have to target other parts of the body. 2600:1702:6D0:5160:21D8:A65B:DD4A:11C8 (talk) 00:05, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Did you read the part were female lions and maneless adolescents also don't target the neck? LittleJerry (talk) 03:16, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

"simulating sex" is homophobic phrasing

I.e. from "Males will also head-rub and roll around with each other before simulating sex together." under "Behaviour and ecology" then "Reproduction and life cycle". They have sex. 31.20.106.40 (talk) 10:50, 5 June 2023 (UTC)