User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish

Jan Żabiński

Hello! Would you plese have a look at my request for update of the Jan Żabiński article? I have written the request on the talk page of the article on May 29. Regards Szelma W (talk) 09:25, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

I do not read Polish, so I cannot verify what is in the source. I added an edit request template which should bring edit request patrollers to look at the request, and hopefully one will be able to verify what is in the source. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:19, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Why did you delete my page?

Needs no body text GFGearestFunk (talk) 15:09, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia isn't the platform to advertise your TikTok. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:11, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Question from Singh harwinder9878 (15:17, 2 June 2023)

hello how can upload my articles on wikipedia? --Singh harwinder9878 (talk) 15:17, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Singh harwinder9878, check out WP:YFA for a detailed guide on how to create articles on Wikipedia. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:38, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

About blocking sockpuppets and other Bulgarian IPs.

Maybe you should tag that vandal as a sockpuppet of DiscoveryTeenHD, because this is the same guy from Bulgaria who vandalised articles about TV channels and radio stations. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/DiscoveryTeenHD LDM2003 (talk) 17:00, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

You'll have to tell me which vandal you're talking about, as I've made a lot of blocks recently. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:04, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I am talking about User:AlfaTVBG1 who used to evade blocks and vandalize on TV-6 (Russia). Because, I believe he is the same guy who persistently hijacks articles and adds unsourced content. Today, he vandalized on Alfa TV (Bulgaria) by using multiple Bulgarian IPs with the same thing about the so-called launch of TV6 Bulgaria and closure of Alfa TV which doesn't appear on news pages. LDM2003 (talk) 17:11, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Tagged. I often block as socks based on ANI reports where the socking is obvious, but I don't know the master. Unfortunately, there's no easy way to handle that. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

HBLC

No rush, but I wanted to know if you have yet considered the possibility of a POV tag (ping from the other day). The claim that the neutrality issue was resolved in the RfCs, when neutrality was not mentioned, is concerning to me. If you have already thought it through and decided against it, I would like to know. I do not wish to overstep, I'm just trying to be courteous and not waste anyone's time, including my own. DN (talk) 18:27, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I believe that was discussed months ago, and consensus was it was a backdoor way to circumvent the RFC consensus. I can try and dig it up. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:30, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I will take a look as well. I remember when I first added a tag it was taken down, but I don't think any of the RfC discussed neutrality, just use of the terms alleged, "belonged to" etc...IMO denying the tag or any discussion of neutrality seemed like a backdoor way to prevent uninvolved editors from chiming in about the overlying issue of conflicting RS (some with qualifiers, some without). DN (talk) 18:41, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Darknipples, Talk:Hunter Biden laptop controversy/Archive 5#A disputed tag has nothing to do with consensus text discusses a disputed tag, but a NPOV tag over the same language does the same thing, and as Awilley said There was no RfC consensus against adding maintenance tags, but the [disputed – discuss] tag could also be considered prohibited language depending on where it's placed. I'm sure this was also discussed in some of the ancillary threads, as this has been on every noticeboard, including this npovn thread. Some fetching chap there said back in February At some point there needs to be acceptance of consensus until something significant comes up that makes another discussion worth the effort. The more this comes up over a short period of time the fewer uninvolved members of the community will take part in the discussions, and the same entrenched users will continue to go back and forth. I believe that's the stage we're at now. The one new editor that took part in that discussion said I believe if you look at the talk page of the Hunter Biden laptop controversy you can find most of your answers. This topic about the specific lines you are questioning has been discussed at great length.

So no, I don't think at this point an NPOV tag would be a reasonable compromise based on all the earlier discussion, and falls into that grey area Awilley was talking about, where it's basically circumventing the consensus of two RFCs. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:45, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

In other words it's a waste of time in your opinion. Thanks for the heads up. You might want to go ahead and stop the discussion there, so others don't continue to waste their time as well. If evidence does eventually show up one way or another, I think our actions here will make a good road map for the future. Cheers. DN (talk) 18:54, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I think it's also a waste of time because with consensus required it'll be immediately reverted then there will be a 200kb discussion about that that won't have consensus for the tag.

I'm hoping the discussion dies down on it's own, but we'll see where it's at after a while longer. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:00, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Honestly I am a bit confused by the requirement for a CONSENSUS for the tag. I was under the impression that any one editor could add a tag as long as a reasonable argument was made with clearly explained issues and how they could be addressed. Could you point out where that is stated? Not that I don't believe you, I just can't find it. DN (talk) 19:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Like everything else, content tags are based on consensus. If every available step has been taken to address concerns, including 2 RFCs, adding tags to protest that consensus doesn't fly. Imagine how many tags would be on every politician's article after every RFC? RFC shows consensus for labeling someone far right, can those that opposed the label then add an npov tag to the article? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:41, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Right, but the RfC wasn't about neutrality. It was more or less about what context should be used. I'm not trying to argue, but I still don't see where it explicitly says that consensus is required (to ADD, not remove). No worries, I promise to do my best to find out without violating canvas or any other such no-nos. DN (talk) 20:48, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Every edit to an article requires consensus, be it a tag, prose, or an image. When something has been discussed to death at every available venue, including two RFCs and a close review, it's clear that the community doesn't believe any tags are necessary. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:18, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I understand where you are coming from, but I think you may not completely understand what I am asking, or maybe I don't completely understand the answer. Either way I can take it from here, no worries, have a peaceful day. Cheers. DN (talk) 21:28, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Atelier Ayesha: The Alchemist of Dusk

Can you please immediately protect this page? Thanks. (Roundish ⋆t) 14:58, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Looks like it was taken care of. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:01, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! (Roundish ⋆t) 15:02, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Actually, it was twinkle lying, so I protected for a couple more weeks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:04, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Note concerning your recent RFC closure

Hello! Irrespective of the outcome, I wanted to thank you for the recent close of topic 1 on the MOS:GENDERID RFC.

I realize that RFC was/is daunting. On the one hand, I feel somewhat proud of the setup: There was an RFCBEFORE at VPI that got fairly messy fairly quickly—you might not believe it, but a good amount of thought went into trying to figure out (1) what the various issues there and across various page-specific debates were, (2) how those issues could be split up to facilitate discussion of different aspects of the problem, and (3) what options would adequately represent the various proposals that had been offered.

On the other hand, splitting up the issues as I did also made it harder on any closer, and, for that, I feel somewhat guilty. I tried to craft the close request to make it as easy on closing editors as possible, but I still recognize that you had to wade through a small novel before you even started going into the responses—which, with that intro, amounted to a tome. Thank you for taking the time to do so, and I do apologize if I could have done better.--Jerome Frank Disciple 14:58, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

x2; you're a beast. Thanks again! --Jerome Frank Disciple 17:14, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

x3! Wow, I really didn't think anyone would willing subject themselves to tackling that entire thing solo; you're an absolute madman, and I'm in awe. Thanks so much again; have a great one,--Jerome Frank Disciple 12:44, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

One more closing statement coming, too. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:45, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't want to impose a burden on you (well, more than I have?), and frankly I can't honestly say that this would definitely payoff for you in the future because I actually prefer (1) working on relatively quiet articles (hence the examples on my user page) and (2) participating in, not creating, RFCs, ... but if you have any suggestions/criticisms related to how I set up the RFC, I'd be more than happy to hear them. As I said above, a lot of thought went into the setup (mostly in view of "these are the fault lines; I expect we can get a consensus on one of two of the fault lines, but it's worth splitting them up") ... but just because there was thought doesn't mean the thought was smart!--Jerome Frank Disciple 12:49, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

My first impression is that for something that large, that's about as good as it could have been. Topic 2a could likely have been held off, pending the result of the main question, but it didn't get nearly the traction the other topics did so it wasn't that big a deal. It is difficult to work on a policy RFC at times because you have to balance enough choices to cover the wide variety of views, but a few enough where it could be possible to find a consensus. Hopefully, the closes narrowed the window a bit so it will become easier to either develop consensus wording, or hold a narrower RFC targeting the area where there is broad consensus so it will be possible to find consensus on specific wording. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:35, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Ah, yeah, I actually didn't start topic 2a; it was actually a reaction to an oversight I made in the topic 2 option 3 implication. But I appreciate both the kind words, the work, and the closing comments! I'm cautiously optimistic that we can work out a proposal for topic 2, though, of course, as I learned this round ... it's actually quite difficult to predict how these things will go—even when you're relying on recent RFCs.--Jerome Frank Disciple 13:52, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

MOS:GENDERID

Thanks for closing the RFC at: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Topic_1:_What_principal_reference?_(MOS:GENDERID_1st_paragraph)

The question posed was Should Wikipedia articles always principally refer to deceased trans and nonbinary persons by their most recently preferred name of choice, as reported in reliable sources? Should not an affirmative response to the question be a "no change" answer, since people are always addressed by their most recently expressed name regardless of the gender identity question, per MOS:CHANGEDNAME? Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:42, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

The RFC included a proposed change to the text, which those supporting supported. Even if that was already common practice, the change outlines it in the MOS, which is good because all the policies and guidelines should be descriptive, rather than proscriptive. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:51, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

User:Rosalinemartinez

I noticed you had blocked user:Rosalinemartinez. The edit(s) they had made on Alessandro de' Medici, Duke of Florence, were restored by user:Elma.engraving5884 on 31 May 2023. User:Elma.engraving5884 has only two edits, so it is probably far to early to determine if this is a sock of Rosalinemartinez. --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Blocked as a duck and opened Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Rosalinemartinez to make sure my papers are in order. Thanks for the heads up. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:07, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Roxy the dog

I was not trying to attack RtD with that remark, they genuinely are having medical issues and stated they’re on a gajillion different drugs. Dronebogus (talk) 22:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Let their nurse handle the medical questions. Stay off their talk page. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:39, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

It makes me sad that you're not helping

The Hunter Biden "laptop" article problem isn't about consensus. It's about sourcing. There isn't any. The people who claim there are sources are being disingenuous. They're cherry picking sources and then they're claiming articles say things they don't. They're not making real arguments because they don't have any, and they can't point to a single article that actually says what they say other articles say. Yet, they're "winning" because they somehow got unsourced statements into the article and it's hard to get rid of them. You don't have to (and shouldn't) enforce a specific point of view, but, as an admin, wouldn't it be great if you would help the page follow Wikipedia policy?

Instead, you closed a discussion where one set of editors (including me) were making reasonable, arguments, with sources, and another set of editors were repeating arguments that were previously refuted.

If I'm wrong and it's ok for "consensus" to override clear Wikipedia policy on required, reliable sources in order to include something, please point me to where it says that. Or the policy where it's ok to ignore reliable sources that disagree with what you'd like the article to say. I certainly haven't found anything like that.

RoyLeban (talk) 09:39, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Consensus determines how policies apply to content. Part of RFCs, and consensus building in general, is weighing arguments based on policy. That the content you object to has been through two RFCs and innumerable noticeboard discussions with a huge amount of editor eyes on it shows that your reading of policy is not in line with how the community reads those policies. Repeating the same arguments over and over again for months in the face of those RFCs and noticeboard discussions is not constructive.

To be clear, consensus isn't overriding policy, you just disagree with the consensus of how the policy has been interpreted by the community (over and over again) in this case. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:15, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	For your thoughtful closes. Always edifying to read your thoughts on where consensus lies in disputes. — Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Non nobis solum. 13:04, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Ixtal. As always, I appreciate your kind words. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:36, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Question from KevinVieau (01:15, 9 June 2023)

How do you add pages on Wikipeadia? --KevinVieau (talk) 01:15, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

KevinVieau, WP:YFA covers the process in detail. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:54, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: History and geography request for comment

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New message from Actualcpscm

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography § Complementary preferences. I pinged you for feedback on the proposed guideline update re. complementary preferences; I suppose it slipped through the cracks during this extensive discussion. Actualcpscm (talk) 16:20, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Actualcpscm, not sure what happened, but I don't see your ping in my alerts. Looks pretty in-depth, so I'll try and give it a thorough read tomorrow. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:30, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
	Great work! Andre🚐 18:32, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you kindly, although I wouldn't say tireless. I get tired of a lot of what goes on, if you catch my drift. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't blame you. It's a tedious job, but at least it won't be a thankless one. Andre🚐 22:11, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate it, thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:20, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Vatandar

A new IP and new registered user are adding back your removal of sock edits/"caste shenanigans". Hyphenation Expert (talk) 19:07, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Account blocked, evasion reverted, protected 3 months. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM and WP:TALKO are in conflict

I certainly understand the points people made. I try to see the good in people, even rude IP editors. Perhaps some admin wants to address the conflict between those two policies, or at least add a cross-reference. Also, WP:NOTFORUM is not quite so explicit that it is unquestionable that the IP editor's comments would violate it — they did make some valid points, so clarification there, if indeed that's the intent, would not hurt. RoyLeban (talk) 08:20, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

First off, that IP is just another in a long series of right wing trolls that complain on protected talk pages about Wikipedia not parroting right wing talking points or relying on wildly unreliable sources. Or maybe you think that saying there was an FBI spy planted in the Trump campaign is reasonable? Or maybe James O'Keefe of Project Veritas isn't far right. It's clear that the IP was saying the laptop article is WAY beyond the pale because it doesn't go far enough in saying the Biden's are criminals. Absurdities & stupidities that abound in the article (and talk), after all that has been made public on the topic isn't referring to any real balance issue, it's a complaint that the article doesn't include "damning evidence" found in unreliable sources. Most of their talk page messages on American political articles are reverted as NOTAFORUM.

Second, the link between WP:NOTAFORUM and WP:TPG is clear, Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views on a subject... discussion should be directed solely toward the improvement of the encyclopedia. NOTAFORUM matches this by saying In addition, bear in mind that article talk pages exist solely to discuss how to improve articles; they are not for general discussion about the subject of the article... Material unsuitable for talk pages may be subject to removal per the talk page guidelines. WP:TALK#USE goes into some more detail. Article talk pages should be used to discuss ways to improve an article; not to criticize, pick apart, or vent about the current status of an article or its subject... As far as cross-referencing, the final line of WP:TALKNO is Do not use the talk page as a forum for discussing the topic, nor as a soapbox for promoting your views. The talk page is for discussing how to improve the article, not venting your feelings about it. ^{emphasis added} It links to both WP:NOTAFORUM and WP:SOAP.

Let's look at the IP's post.

The articles in this page are beyond the pale. WAY beyond the pale. Absurdities & stupidities that abound in the article (and talk), after all that has been made public on the topic, are simply indefensible. It is unlikely that only these article's words and talk pages here, but the incredible contorted reasoning spelled out, as well as other pages, only serve to blemish any attempts of Wiki objectivity. A clear violation of Wiki's mission. If there is anyone who has the power, they need to rein it in. Otherwise, Wiki's brand will languish and atrophy. It is not an "IF", only a when.

Is there anything in that message that is not venting [their] feelings about [the article]? It even mentions other articles using contorted reasoning. Does it mention how to improve the article? Specific issues? Any sources provided or changes proposed? No. It's just venting that the article doesn't look how they want it to. It is unquestionable that the message violates the talk page guidelines and as WP:TPG says, Material unsuitable for talk pages may be subject to removal per the talk page guidelines. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:21, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Jordan Neely

With the RFC you recently closed, do you consider your no consensus for name inclusion for the entire article, or just in regards to the lead as the RFC was written. I know there were early concerns on BLPN about how the RFC was originally written, and the fact it started before his name was widely available and then continued after charges were filed, made it a fluid situation. There also was the problem of a second discussion starting about overall inclusion prior to this one being closed, although most participants in their found their way to the first RFC. Anyways, just asking before I start removing name from article. Thanks. WikiVirusC^(talk) 18:08, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

In general, those opposed made no mention of the lead, and the arguments that they put forth apply to the article as a whole, rather than the lead, and most of the support also did not mention the lead. I read the opposition as relating to the use of the name in general (per WP:BLPCRIME), rather than in the lead, so it should apply to the entire article. This is an example of why WP:RFCBEFORE should be done. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:27, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

IP: 99.245.174.5

Hi, I see that you blocked this IP user and I also see that you blocked another IP which was the same user. However IMO, I think that IP should also be blocked for about 3 months rather than just a week. Because it's likely as soon as that block expires he'll be back to adding poor sources for actor's DOBs. Kcj5062 (talk) 22:17, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

It's possible, but it's the first editing from that IP, so I'm hesitant to lay a heavy block. They might have been using someone else's WiFi or something similar. If it starts up again I'll block for longer. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:19, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Jordan Neely.... again...

Hello! As you are the closing editor (and if I may flatter you, an admin I've seen just about everywhere I go whose work I respect greatly) I thought it would be pertinent to ask you before opening another BLPCRIME can of worms on that talk page - do you feel the new development of Penny's indictment warrants a new discussion, or possibly even reversal of the closure? Like I've said repeatedly, I think his name ought to be included (and I think the indictment changes a lot of the arguments made), but I also recognize this is a huge set of discussions that has continued to grow and metastasize onto user talks and noticeboards.... Even if the discussion really SHOULD be revived, it might be best to let the page chill out for a bit before poking the dragon again. PriusGod (talk) 22:40, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

PriusGod, with 45 or so percent invoking BLPCRIME I don't believe another discussion immediately would change anything, or be particularly constructive. BLPCRIME applies to those without a conviction, so the recent developments don't change it's applicability. If you take into account some of the support argued that since he wasn't charged BLPCRIME didn't apply, now those arguments are undercut and we're left with a stronger lean towards opposition.

I also want to thank you for editing in support of a consensus that goes against how you believe the article should be written. That's good editing, and a great thing to see in a contentious situation. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:51, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish, The first sentence of wp:blp is, "Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page, including but not limited to articles, talk pages, and project pages." Emphasis in original. The name of the accused is all over the talk page, in the RfC and at least one ANI, and in edit summaries. As of this writing there are 43 citations in the main article which have his name in the title, clearly visible to anyone who reads the article. If we're really serious about strict enforcement of your interpretation of policy, I argue that simply removing his name from the text of the article isn't sufficient -- it should be purged wherever it is found, including from history. As that would be a monumental task, an argument could be made for wholesale article deletion and starting over from scratch, or deletion without regeneration until such time as the suspect is convicted, consistent with WP:BLPDELETE. Then there is the issue of other articles which name accused but not convicted persons (I and another editor have begun making a list).

TL;DR: I do think this issue needs to be revisited, but globally, either with the aim of changing policy to match actual long-standing practice, or removing articles which don't adhere to your interpretation of it. And yes I know this has been discussed numerous times, but reinventing the wheel is what brand-new editors are for, amirite? Regards, Xan747 (talk) 15:16, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

The name in headline has come up for other articles at WP:BLPN before, and generally if other sources can be found, great, but there isn't a prohibition on citing a source that names the subject in the headline. There are also different allowances in article space and talk space. Discussing contentious BLP material will require discussing that material on-wiki. If it is determined that the material doesn't belong in the article, we don't remove the discussion and revdel the edits from the talk page. If you're concerned that the name should not be mentioned at all on-wiki, I think you should bring that up at WP:BLPN. Generally, there is a higher bar for that, e.g. concerns of identifying an anonymous minor victim of a crime through their link to a suspect.

As far as WP:OTHERCONTENT, well, that's how the cookie crumbles. In that discussion, on that talk page, about that article there was no consensus to include the name. There's a whole ocean of articles with all manner of different consensus based on what editors took part in what discussions. I don't think that you'd have much luck with a global discussion on hard line enforcement of WP:BLPCRIME. There is some nuance to it, which is why individual invocations of the policy are discussed on talk pages. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:33, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

My takeaways here are that there are long-standing conventions not codified in policy, different editors have different conventions, and that policy or convention can be and is trumped by local consensus. And that I should tailor my goals and participation accordingly instead of tilting at windmills.

My actual position is that I'm not at all concerned with the accused's name being mentioned on-wiki, including in the article itself. Any reliable news agency will have policy in place protecting themselves from defamation lawsuits, and so long as we follow their lead on what they say and how they say it, we should be covered. In my mind, this moots the public figures test. That doesn't mean I think that's the only hurdle inclusion should have to clear.

Happy to talk more if you want, otherwise I've said my piece. Thank you for your time and consideration. Xan747 (talk) 17:20, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

WP:BLP isn't about lawsuits, as much as it's about human dignity and privacy. That's what BLPCRIME is dealing with, and why it stipulates people who are not high profile. We don't want to be part of the next Richard Jewell situation, which is why we don't generally follow the media as closely. Wikipedia is in the top returns for almost any search, so the privacy of people who aren't public figures is a real concern.

You'll find a lot of different local consensus situations dealing with a lot of policies. In BLPCRIME editors must seriously consider not including material is doing a lot of heavy lifting. An RFC was, in this case, that serious consideration. In other cases, after serious consideration there was a different consensus. That's just how Wikipedia works. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:32, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I understand there are other considerations than defamation suits, but it was an argument against inclusion in the RfC and it is a concern raised in policy (in one place very strongly, but now I can't find it). I'm willing to consider that I've put too much emphasis on the argument.

Richard Jewell was never charged, but was variously described in media as a person of interest, or suspect. I recall the ensuing media circus all too well, and agree Wikipedia should tread lightly in such situations. As @PriusGod already pointed out, by the time the RfC closed, our ex-marine had been indicted by a grand jury, so the situations aren't comparable. Yet your stated standard above is that he must be convicted before he can be named per BLPCRIME. It sounds like the only thing that might sway you is overwhelming local consensus. Is that about accurate? Xan747 (talk) 18:35, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

The issue with applying BLPCRIME here, really, is that even if Penny was found not guilty, he should still be named in the article. He is not disputing that he was the person involved here. If a "not guilty" verdict means he should be included, and a "guilty" verdict does as well, then why leave out his name now? Elli (talk | contribs) 18:43, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Forgive the intrusion, but as an interested party I thought I would stop in. And Elli -- my answer to your question is that right now, we are telling an incomplete story and perhaps giving an impression that is not there (that of guilt). He was accused and later exonerated (or convicted) is a simple recitation of facts that can't really be misconstrued. "He has been charged by a grand jury" might tend to make people think that there is culpability before it is established. That said, this is certainly a thorny one (this article and elsewhere) and as I like to say, reasonable minds can differ on the best policy. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 18:47, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

It's not my standard, it was the standard argued in the RFC. As I said, there was no consensus to include, and being a WP:BLP issue it doesn't fall back to the status quo, it defaults to not including. Contentious material in a BLP needs a positive consensus to include. I explained my views on how I weighed some of the arguments, but even if I had not adjusted any weights and read it as a straight vote it would have been no consensus. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:48, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

It's not my standard, it was the standard argued in the RFC.

Ahhh, light goes on. I apologize for the misunderstanding. Thank you for your patience, and the crash course in how things really work. Regards, Xan747 (talk) 19:11, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

No problem. RFC closures are a formal summary of the discussion with an uninvolved party assessing the consensus. A closer can weigh arguments differently depending on they're policy basis and overall strength, but it's still summarizing the discussion, rather than casting a WP:SUPERVOTE. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:25, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

That big MOS:GENDERID RFC Close

Hiya! Recently you closed a big three part RFC about MOS:GENDERID as "somewhere between options 2 and 3". However, in this followup RFC almost all of the oppose votes are trying to relitigate the previous RFC, and often through claiming the close of the previous RFC was "no consensus".

It seems pretty clear to me that this is not consistent with the actual close. Would it be possible for you to reword the close of the previous RFC to clarify your intent? Or at least chime in on the new RFC? Loki (talk) 14:40, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure I can make it much clearer than it is clear that the actual consensus lies somewhere between option 2 and option 3. It was plain after reading the discussion that the community believes that, for the most part, the prior name should not be used. Where the lack of consensus emerges is when dealing with where exactly the line for inclusion should be drawn. There was no consensus on the specific wording, which was the RFC question, but as I noted, that wasn't the consensus of the discussion. Just from a raw numbers point of view it was about 49% supporting option 3, and 22% supporting option 2. The result weighed much closer to 3, which I had hoped to communicate with the community believes that, for the most part, the prior name should not be used. I don't really have the authority to do anything in the new RFC, but if there is something specifically I should clarify, let me know. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:08, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

My suggestion in that case would be to bold the actual consensus lies somewhere between option 2 and option 3 like you bolded there is no consensus to change the current wording of MOS:GENDERID at the top. Right now it's buried in the middle of a long closing statement that I'm not confident everyone is reading fully. Loki (talk) 17:17, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I think the steel is too cold now to bother with bolding that line. Changing the bolding now, a week later, isn't going to change how people want to read the close. To be honest, it likely wouldn't have changed how people read it if it were bolded from the start. The bolding doesn't actually matter, the few hundred words I spent explaining the actual consensus do. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:35, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I suppose that's fair, because I suppose I have a deeper concern.

I think that your close is very reasonable a priori, but I think in practice it leads to some serious issues. In a situation where ~50% of people like Option 3, ~25% of people like Option 2, and ~25% of people like one of various options weaker than Option 2, asking for wording to be settled on in a future RFC necessarily makes it very hard to actually get a consensus on that wording, assuming that the people who voted for weaker options maintain their objection. Wordings exactly where the consensus lies (around 2.5) are likely to fail as 50/50s. Even something closer to Option 2 might have serious issues achieving consensus: there were several Option 3 voters who opposed Option 2 as worse than nothing.

I'm tempted to open a close review for this reason except that, again, the original close was clearly a reasonable reading of the consensus. The issues with it are that it's asking people to do something impossible in the future, not that it was a bad reading of where the consensus was in practice.

TL;DR the wording of your close has put us in a frustrating situation that I feel could have been avoided. I'm not entirely sure what kvetching to you is supposed to accomplish but I also feel like I oughta at least say something so situations like this can be avoided in the future. Loki (talk) 02:47, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Looking back at my notes, I have 38 of 83 primarily supporting option 3, and 18 primarily supporting option 2. Of the option 3 supporters, six explicitly supported option 2, and many others had comments about exceptions. Of the option 2 supporters there was about an even split between also supporting option 3 or specifically calling out a high bar and supporting no change or opposing three. Option 2 also had other support from a number of option 4 supporters as secondary. I just didn't see a way to call that as consensus for option three with 53% raw support. Perhaps Barkeep49's close would have been better, and I wouldn't have supported a challenge against it as it is in the realm of reasonable, but that's not how I read consensus. I also think that close would have been a lot more likely to get challenged.

I try not to consider exactly how an RFC will be implemented because that can definitely color a reading of consensus. No consensus is always a possible outcome, and sometimes that's just where the die falls. I did my best to clarify where the actual consensus was, but I don't think it was within normal closing discretion to work out exactly how to handle the new wording, and I don't think there was enough there to change the wording of the MOS to option 3.

I don't mind the kvetching, and I'm always interested to see how people view my closes. I'm also always interested in avoiding shitty situations in the future. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:59, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Not to distract or take attention away from Loki, but I just read through that RfC, and I have to say, that is the longest f'ing thread I've seen in a while, and extremely complex. Kudos just for the attempt hfs. DN (talk) 06:13, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, that was about 1.4 tomats. Not the longest I've closed, but it was up there. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:01, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Aniyan Midhun

There's PR activity going on with Aniyan Midhun, particularly following his participation in Bigg Boss (Malayalam season 5). The article, that was AFD'ed and deleted two times earlier, was created by User:Dhananjaydhanu246 as draft on 10 April 2021, which was approved on the next day by User:Kashmorwiki (sock). Dhananjaydhanu246 has openly acknowledged on their userpage that they have a COI with two other lesser-known celebrities: Nithya Mammen and Drishya Raghunath. Nithya was created by User:Jehowahyereh (sock). Also, see Abdul.Aboobacker's edit. All these accounts are single-purpose, solely for promoting their clients. Possible meatpuppetry from the same agency. The Doom Patrol (talk) 16:49, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

This is almost certainly a sock/meat farm for promotion. That said, it's a pretty tangled web. Let me see what I can do. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:02, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

The Doom Patrol, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sulshanamoodhi. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:23, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Ben Roberts-Smith

Hi ScottishFinnishRadish, I set that RfC tag at what may seem a premature juncture under the "Disgraced his country" heading because I though I'd more than established with overwhelming reliable sources that references to Justice Besanko using that phrase should be used not only in the lead, but at a bare minimum under the judgement heading but others have ripped it out of the article all together and I'm in a situation where I've had aspersions cast at me about WP:POINTy, WP:BLUDGEONed and WP:NOTGETTINGIT because of my good faith discussion on in talk. So if I discuss anything any further anywhere I'll just have others again come at me with aspersion of POINTy and BLUDGEONed and that I'm commenting about another area, and this is a direct quote, "in retaliation for demands to properly source the 1,000% more controversial war criminal label". This is why I felt it necessary to invite other editors who aren't already involved. AlanS^talk 12:38, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

AlanS, you should make sure that you have a clear and neutral RFC statement before adding the tag. For example,

Should the article subject be labeled as having "disgraced his country" in the lead?

a) Yes, unattributed

b) Yes, attributed to the Justice

c) No

Putting an RFC tag after a discussion like you did is going to lead to a meandering discussion that is incredibly difficult to find consensus in. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:42, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

ok, that wasn't clear on the page I read. it just gave the impression to add the tag. Thanks for your help. With your edit summary, I thought you meant more discussion needed to occur and with the last discussion I had in regards to "Former television executive" I'm a bit over it unless there are other eyes around. AlanS^talk 12:50, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I was far more concerned with keeping any RFC focused and on point. When dealing with a contentious BLP like this, expect that there will be a couple RFCs, at least, because BLP material that has been objected to should have affirmative consensus before restoring. Often times that leads to RFCs if discussions don't have a clear consensus. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:54, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Frankly, I'm surprised there hasn't been any RfC's already. AlanS^talk 13:06, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Ps, can you please check that I've done it correctly. Don't mean to be a bother. AlanS^talk 13:06, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I tidied up the RFC formatting and added a couple categories to it so it gets sorted correctly. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:23, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks muchly. AlanS^talk 13:36, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Oh, and no worries about being a bother. I'm more than willing to help. In contentious situations it's often helpful to have some uninvolved assistance to keep things running smoothly. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:27, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Pointless Guardian RfC

Drat, I was too busy thinking of witty edit summaries to look at the wider context and just get the pointless RfC shut down. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:36, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

As soon as I saw it pop up I was pretty sure a few moments of looking would reveal disruptive editing, and lo-and-behold, that's what I found. Then they were nice enough to create a few user pages for me on some other language wikipedias featuring Trump's picture before they were globally blocked. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:39, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Trump fanboys turn up in the strangest places, you know..... Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:48, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Havyaka Brahmins

Hi, the user you banned is back with two different accounts. Please take an appropriate action. It is clear cut vandalism. -- Pulimaiyi (talk) 14:16, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Also, apologies for messing up the 2 edits. I just go to the last revision before the vandalism took place and copy all the wikitext from there and past it in the edit window, but it seems like the content gets pasted twice if I do it on mobile mode. Anyway, it is fixed and as for the vandalism I hope you will take a strict action. -- Pulimaiyi (talk) 14:21, 16 June 2023 (UTC)