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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by GodzillamanRor (talk | contribs) at 01:06, 24 June 2023 (→‎Mutiny or Rebellion?: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

"Alleged" mutiny?

As far as I've seen, Prigozhin has already said that he is going against the Russian government now, and the Russian government has been issuing statements calling for Prigozhin to be prosecuted for armed rebellion and whatnot. I've seen no reliable sources describe the mutiny as "alleged", it seems that the Russian govt, Wagner group, and most RS' are in agreement that there is a real mutiny here Presidentofyes12 (talk) 23:21, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Despite Prigojin claims that he has "25k troops going for russian MOD in Rostov" - nobody saw them. There is no any evidence of it in 6 hours, while Rostov area is pretty densely populated. So this mutiny is now happening only in media. Lola Rennt (talk) 00:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Right now there is only a social media bubble following this and no confirmed Wagner attacks on russia, especially Rostov-on-Don have happened, all we have right now is blather from Prigozhin. This is alleged. Bigfatman8766 (talk • contribs) 00:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Both the Russian government and Wagner are confirming that it's happening. Most media are reporting on it (sources can easily be found in the discussion right below this one). I don't know what higher standard you need, but that's already far more than a "social media bubble". Chaotic Enby (talk) 00:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mutiny or Rebellion?

I don't know the exact term to be used, But I would say rebellion makes more sense, Wagner PMC is a paramilitary group, and they are not apart of the russian army, A "mutiny" of this size seems more like a rebellion or heck even a civil war. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 23:45, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, as of now both seem to be used in sources, although mutiny is used a bit more. We could wait to see what term sets into common usage. I, however, am concerned about whether it should be seen as "alleged" or not, because most sources are now saying that it is, indeed, happening. Presidentofyes12 (talk) 23:49, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is an odd case. Both the Wagner Group and the Russian MoD are well-known spreaders of misinformation, so we probably shouldn't take anything they say as true, perhaps only as "claimed". Nythar (💬-🍀) 23:52, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support rebellion. I've looked into the definitions of mutiny and rebellion more and rebellion would make more sense in this context because Wagner is a private military company, so I would assume that they don't have a legal connection to the russian military, mutiny is used for rebelling against superiors (military officers) however this seems like a direct rebellion against the kremlin and ministry of defense. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 23:56, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just quickly looking at some of the sources here - rebellion may make sense, but I'd say better titles would be 'Wagner-Russia Skirmishes', 'Wagner-Russo Conflict' for the time being - till we get a more clear image on exactly what is going on. It appears to be way too large for the word 'mutiny' (and also this title wouldn't be easily discoverable). Foxterria (talk) 00:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They're all Russians. Prigozhin claims to still obey Putin. It makes no sense to say Wagner is fighting Russia and that both are separate entities. This is a conflict between Wagner and the Ministry of Offense of the Russian Federation or, more broadly, the Russian professional army. Super Ψ Dro 00:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support rebellion. To me it appears to be a more appropriate option and while reading news, many from Russian sources, I haven't seen "mutiny" being used a single time, at least in the translation of Russian-language sources. I am not aware of how are originally English-language sources reporting on this. Super Ψ Dro 00:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support mutiny for now- I thought I'd give a proper opinion on this- most sources, as far as I've seen, seem to be citing Russian govt. allegations of "mutiny":
Russia-Ukraine war live: Russia investigates ‘mutiny’ as Wagner chief says ‘evil’ military leaders must be stopped
Mercenary chief vows retaliation after he says Russia killed 2,000 fighters, Kremlin alleges ‘armed mutiny’
Moscow accuses Wagner head of mutiny as Ukraine prepares main thrust in counteroffensive
The list goes on. So I guess it'd make sense to keep it as mutiny for now, although the fact that they seem to be saying that Moscow is accusing Wagner of mutiny could complicate things. Idk Presidentofyes12 (talk) 00:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Some sources say the Russian government is accusing Prigozhin of "mutiny" while others of "rebellion" (e.g. [1] [2]). Some sources, when showing Prigozhin's rejection of these accusations, say he denies that he is doing an "armed rebellion" (instead of mutiny) [3]. To me it appears it is a matter of translation. So maybe the issue would then fall on what word is the most appropriate. The meaning of "mutiny" does not look so to me because as some have explained above, Wagner was never subordinated to the Russian government or to whoever they're rebelling against. Super Ψ Dro 00:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per its own article Wagner has always been a de facto arm of the Russian government and military, with Prigozhin being a close confidant of Putin and the other top commanders also being ranked Russian officers. Support "mutiny". Lightspecs (talk) 01:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support "rebellion" in the title as Wagner is a private group formerly loyal to Moscow, instead of a part of the Russian Armed Forces themselves. Although I still believe it's best to wait until we have a clearer picture of the situation. Chaotic Enby (talk) 00:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neither. It seems to me that currently we have no evidence from WP:RS that there is an actual military rebellion by Wagner forces. All we have is lots of blabla from Prigozhin, criminal charges against him, and panic from official Russian forces with military vehicles driving around and checkpoints. A social media bubble is not an armed rebellion. Boud (talk) 00:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is not a valid stance. Whether this thing is real or not it is receiving huge media coverage so the article will stay at least for a while. Maybe you'd rather add "alleged" next to either "mutiny" or "rebellion" but it is clear we need to chose between one of the two. Super Ψ Dro 00:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Alleged? Yes. An actual rebellion or mutiny ongoing? Not for now at least. We cannot make such claims based on unreliable sources, meaning this page shouldn't have been moved to its current title. Nythar (💬-🍀) 00:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The BBC, Reuters and The Guardian are among the outlets that are reporting on this. I do not think they're considered unreliable.
And the current is the first title this article had. It shouldn't be moved without discussion into "alleged". I believe there is a need for a discussion on this talk page for whether we should refer to this as an alleged thing or not just like we're having one for whether we should call this thing a mutiny or a rebellion. Such a discussion has not happened yet. Super Ψ Dro 00:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The question is whether reliable sources have independently verified that the events taking place in Russia are a mutiny or rebellion. This has not yet happened, so the status of this event is currently unverified. The title is based on unreliable sources. I agree that we need a formal move request. Nythar (💬-🍀) 00:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I opened one but there has only been one reply there as of now. Presidentofyes12 (talk) 00:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The mainstream Western media is reporting on claims of mutiny and using scare quotes to clarify that there's not yet any real evidence of a mutiny. The adjective "alleged" wouldn't make sense, because Prigozhin is claiming that Wagner is rebelling, it's not just the Russian authorities alleging the supposed mutiny. I'm not sure what title to propose, though. Boud (talk) 00:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Rebellion. Wagner group runs separately from the Russian military as a private military company. Hence, it would be considered a rebellion since it's an independent force opposing the authority of the Russian government. GodzillamanRor (talk) 01:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Precedent

I think it would be useful to mention that one time in which Wagner captured a Russian colonel who was publicly humiliated into admitting he had ordered to shoot at Wagner forces because he was drunk or something. I think it was the only real conflict or clash between Wagner and Russian professionals prior to this. This is what I am talking about: [4] [5]. Super Ψ Dro 00:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I just added this, but it could need rephrasing or to be moved to a different place. Idk Presidentofyes12 (talk) 00:16, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alleged fighting in Rostov-on-Don?

Several videos and claims of clashes between the MoD and Wagner in Rostov are circulating, eg [6]. Should these be mentioned, or should we wait for more sources to report on these? If it turns out to be a major fight, should there be a separate article for the "battle"? Chaotic Enby (talk) 01:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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