Talk:Orthodox Tewahedo biblical canon

Origin of the canon?

There should be the origin of the Orthodox Tewahedo Biblical Canon. For example, was it from the original Greek Septuagint and such? Komitsuki (talk) 14:32, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Are there more precise sources for the radically changed definition of "the canon"?

@ChilternGiant: A few weaks ago, yoy radically changed the list of the orthodox Tewahedo canonical books, with the argument that your list contains the 81 books of the Ethiopian Bible as printed in Ethiopian Orthodox Bibles (as opposed to theoretical lists printed on various websites but never found anywhere in print). Actually, you seem to dismiss the whole idea that there exists a "narrower" and a "broader" canon. In fact, although you did not consistently change the discussion of "the narrower canon" vz. "the broader canon" in this article, here you changed Catholic Bible#Differences from other Christian Bibles, and explicitly wrote

Some websites speak about a "broader" Ethiopian New Testament canon but this is only in theory and is never printed.

None of these changes was supported by any reference at all.

Actually, the revisions here and in the Catholic Bible could be summed up as the following implicit statements:

• There are no 'narrower' and 'broader' versions of the Ethiopian canon, and never were any. Instead, the concept of a 'broader canon' is a canard, with no foundation, but which has been spread on the web.
• Neither the 'narrower' nor the 'broader' canon earlier described in this article actually is the true Orthodox Tewahedo biblical canon. However, the 'true' canon (which I preliminary shall call the CG canon, since for the moment we have no other authority for its composition than you, ChilternGiant) is fairly close to what was described as the 'narrower' one; but the CG canon is somewhat more similar to modern Orthodox canons than the earlier falsely suggested 'narrow canon' was.
• The Orthodox Tewahedo church defines the canonical books by what is contained in their printed bibles. (This is not at all self-evident! It means, e. g., that there are no generally spread hand-written documents in Ethiopian churches with similar importance as the Torah scrolls have in Judaism. Therefore, if it is true, it must be sourced.) Thus, e. g., the list in http://www.ethiopianorthodox.org/english/canonical/books.html is fraudulent.
• All editions of Orthodox Tewahedo bibles contain the CG canon, the whole CG canon, and nothing but the CG canon. (This may well be true; but, if so, it must be sourced.) This includes the claim that there is nothing in these printed Bibles stating e. g. that they only contain the 'narrow canon'. (Compare to some Protestantic bibles, e. g. the official Swedish bible from 1917 to 2000, which explicitly stated that it contained "the canonical books of the Old and the New Testament". There was a separate volume, also official, with "the apocrypha of the Old Testament", essentially corresponding to the Catholic Deuterocanon.)

ChilternGiant, for all I know, your implicit claims (or most of them) could be correct. I'm aware of your broad work with articles concerning bible translations into many languages, and I think that you know much more about bible versions than I do. (However, I'm rather doubtful of your implicit claim that the list in http://www.ethiopianorthodox.org/english/canonical/books.html simply is false. I could imagine the possibility that it is obsolete, but I can hardly believe that it is just a "theory on some web sites", with no factual foundation at all, as you indicate.) However, your claims are rather far-reaching, and if they are correct they must be documented before they are accepted in our articles.

If you cannot or do not wish to document your claims, then I fear that your changes must be reverted; which is a pity, if they are true. Also, if you have misunderstood the situation a bit, but there actually are at least some printed Orthodox Tewahedo bibles with the content you describe, then this in itself is a fact which is interesting enough to keep.

Provided, of course, that you can give some reference even to such a claim.

Best regards, JoergenB (talk) 20:39, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

@ChilternGiant: OK, I revert the unsourced changes.

@Veverve: If you wish, look at this! I read the article by Tedros Abraha you added a link to. I see from that that "the broad canon" and "the narrow canon" seem to be terms introduced by Roger Cowley, which perhaps should be mentioned, together with the discussion of why the canon is not very fixed. JoergenB (talk) 20:09, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

@JoergenB:This whole thing gave me a headache. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church does not even print books which it claims are in their canon in their official printed bibles (cf. the article I posted). Their whole canon is not even defined properly by them, therefore I am not going to make huge efforts to try to understand their canon. The Ethiopian Church wanted the have a confusing canon, did not produce an official list in more than a thounsand years, and I am not going to go against their will. To answer your message, you should mention how undefined the canon is. Veverve (talk) 21:12, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

@Veverve: OK, I'll do so, and employ the Abraha article as source.

Actually, from Abraha's work I get the impression that there could be several reasons for the 'loose' canon, and not all that bad. One could be that Ethiopia wasn't plagued by as much by schisms and by people branding each others as heretics and trying to destroy the writings of others as the larger churches (both in the west and the east) were; and therefore they didn't have as much reason to specify exactly what the status of their various writings were. Abraha writes e. g.:

In the Catholic Church, the canon of the biblical books was sanctioned by the Council of Trent (Fourth Session, April 8, 1546). The Tridentine Council was a reply to the Reformation and the definition of a biblical canon which included the deutero-canonical books reflects the historical context in which the Church took its stand on the issue. (op. cit., p. 107)

In other words, in his opinion, the precise status of these books in the Roman Catholic church was not fixed until it was necessary, due to the conflict with various Protestants. If the church in Ethiopia never was seriously challenged in this manner, then they had less reason to fix the canon exactly – and I don't think that this necessarily would be bad.

On the other hand, as far as I've understood, for a long time, the (more or less) holy texts were not very available to the majority of the ordinary Ethiopian Christians. I don't know any language from that area; but as far as I understand, these texts were in Ge'ez, and I suppose they were hard to understand for unschooled people. I've understood that the idea of translating these texts to Amharic or other modern languages, and of printing and distributing them in order to let a large part of the people access them themselves, is much more modern.

As long as the texts mainly were used for liturgical purposes and for the education of the clergy, I suppose the need of a definition of certain of these texts as "bible books" was less important.

However, this is just my own reflexions, after a quick reading of Abraha. I don't plan to put any OR to the text, just what could be supported directly from Abraha. JoergenB (talk) 15:26, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

@JoergenB:I allow myself to reming you to do as you said. Veverve (talk) 23:01, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

No they can be sourced here [[1]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeymanderson3 (talk • contribs) 04:11, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

bible ethiopian

what's the real list in the Ethiopian Bible? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a01:e0a:4e7:d8f0:b569:7038:1ab7:85e7 (talk • contribs) 20:53, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

You can find the list here in the last two pages. Veverve (talk) 17:51, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

The list can be sourced her [[2]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeymanderson3 (talk • contribs) 04:12, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

but the broader canon is still in their canon? If so, why didn't they ever print it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E0A:4E7:D8F0:A82A:A790:CF37:DA35 (talk) 18:49, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

The situation is very confusing since their canon is not really clear-cut. You can read the rest of the article I linked above for more information, but do no expect any clear answer as the situation itself is not clear. As I wrote earlier: "This whole thing gave me a headache. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church does not even print books which it claims are in their canon in their official printed bibles (cf. the article I posted). Their whole canon is not even defined properly by them, therefore I am not going to make huge efforts to try to understand their canon. The Ethiopian Church wanted the have a confusing canon, did not produce an official list in more than a thounsand years, and I am not going to go against their will." Veverve (talk) 18:54, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

while researching Wikipedia discussions I came across a person who seems to know a lot about this subject, he gives us his opinion on the Ethiopian canon. Here's his quote: " Neil Rees ('Studge') of bfbs linguistic computing recently visited Ethiopia. Afterwards, he emailed me a document entitled Ethiopian Orthodox Old Testament, with the following cover note: I have just got back from the Bible Society of Ethiopia. In looking on the Internet I have found a lot of false information about the Ethiopian canon which mention broad and narrow canons. There are only 2 canons printed in Ethiopia: the Protestant 66 book canon and the Ethiopian Orthodox 81 book canon (called the narrow canon). The so-called broad canon has never been printed and is of academic interest only. I was looking at your page http://www.crosswire.org/wiki/OSIS_Book_Abbreviations I submit the list of books in the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible as published by the Bible Society since 1962. I have converted his document to PDF and uploaded it to my user space here. David Haslam 15:29, 25 March 2011 (UTC)" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E0A:4E7:D8F0:3D76:91D4:BF0E:B56A (talk)

You can contact David Haslam on his talk page. Veverve (talk) 01:40, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Article does not mention the language of this version of the Bible

I realize that the topic "the canon" is what it is regardless of language of the particular Bible, but I think many readers would be interested in the language used in this version. ZeroXero (talk) 20:12, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

It is not a version: it is a list of texts considered to be canonical, regardless of their language. Veverve (talk) 02:33, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Weirdness!

To begin: May I send 2 pictures in this “talk page” to help explain the weirdness of what I’m getting at about the Ethiopian Bible Books? Craig Lungren (talk) 05:05, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Could you type what your concern is for all to see? Wikipedia is WP:NOTHOST. Veverve (talk) 11:36, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Lol, that’s really not answering my question and I’m not sure what you mean, when you say “Wikipedia is WP:NOTHOST”. Craig Lungren (talk) 02:15, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not here to host your personnal files (including images) on their server. What kind of images are you referring to? Veverve (talk) 02:19, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I’m referring to “Ethiopian Bible images” - which are not meant to be that personal for showing on Wikipedia. Do you understand now? Craig Lungren (talk) 02:43, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I will try to explain the weirdness without the pictures.

Anyways, according to what it says on the Article page, under the category of “List of Books in the Orthodox Tewahedo Bible”, it says there are 46 books in the Old Testament and 31 books in the New Testament …

Extended content

=== In the Old Testament === List of Old Testament books in the Orthodox Tewahedo Bible: Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy Joshua Judges Ruth I and II Samuel I and II Kings I Chronicles II Chronicles (incl. the Prayer of Manasseh) Jubilees Enoch I Ezra II Ezra Ezra Sutuel Tobit Judith Esther I, II and III Meqabyan (Similarly named, but not the same as the four Greek Books of the Maccabees) Job Psalms Messalë (Proverbs ch 1–24) Tägsas (Proverbs ch 25–31) Wisdom of Solomon Ecclesiastes Song of Songs Isaiah Jeremiah (incl. Baruch, Lamentations, Letter of Jeremiah, and 4 Baruch) Ezekiel Daniel Hosea Amos Micah Joel Obadiah Jonah Nahum (or Nahium) Habakkuk Zephaniah Haggai Zechariah Malachi Sirach Josippon === In the New Testament === List of New Testament books in the Orthodox Tewahedo Bible, including the broader canon: Matthew Mark Luke John Acts Romans I Corinthians II Corinthians Galatians Ephesians Philippians Colossians I Thessalonians II Thessalonians I Timothy II Timothy Titus Philemon Hebrews I Peter II Peter I John II John III John James Jude Revelation Sinodos Ser`atä Seyon (30 canons) Te'ezaz (71 canons) Gessew (56 canons) Abtelis (81 canons) I-II Covenant Ethiopic Clement Ethiopic Didascalia

However, as for the weirdness …

- 46 + 31 does not make up a total of 81 books, but instead adds up to a total of 77 books.

- Books 15 to 16 of the Old Testament (OT) says “I Ezra” and “II Ezra”, but should those 2 books not say “Ezra” and “Nehemiah” instead?

- Books 24 to 25 of the OT says “Messalë” and “Tägsas”, but should those 2 books not say “I Proverbs” and “II Proverbs” to make it look simple and to have it make the most sense instead?

- Book 28 of the New Testament (NT) says “Sinodos”, but if Sinodos is actually 4 books instead of 1, then should it not say in the NT section “Book 28. Ser atä Seyon”, “Book 29. Te'ezaz”, etc. instead?

(Side Note: I will do a Summary that I believe should look like for the list of books in the Orthodox Tewahedo Bible or the Ethiopian Bible in my next comment)! Craig Lungren (talk) 15:42, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Here is a Summary that I believe should make sense for the list of books in the Orthodox Tewahedo Bible or the Ethiopian Bible …

In the Old Testament

List of Old Testament books in the Orthodox Tewahedo Bible:

1. Genesis
2. Exodus
3. Leviticus
4. Numbers
5. Deuteronomy
6. Joshua
7. Judges
8. Ruth
9. I Samuel
10. II Samuel
11. I Kings
12. II Kings
13. I Chronicles
14. II Chronicles (incl. the Prayer of Manasseh)
15. Jubilees
16. Enoch
17. I Ezra (also known as “Ezra–Nehemiah”)
18. II Ezra (also known as “I Esdras”)
19. Ezra Sutuel (also known as “II Esdras”)
20. Tobit
21. Judith
22. Esther (incl. additions - Esther 10:4 - Esther 16)
23. I Meqabyan
24. II Meqabyan
25. III Meqabyan
26. Job
27. Psalms (incl. Psalm 151)
28. I Proverbs (Proverbs ch 1–24)
29. II Proverbs (Proverbs ch 25–31)
30. Wisdom of Solomon
31. Ecclesiastes
32. Song of Songs (also known as Song of Solomon)
33. Isaiah
34. Jeremiah (incl. Letter of Jeremiah)
35. Lamentations
36. Baruch (incl. 4 Baruch)
37. Ezekiel
38. Daniel (incl. additions - Daniel ch 13–14)
39. Hosea
40. Amos
41. Micah
42. Joel
43. Obadiah
44. Jonah
45. Nahum (or Nahium)
46. Habakkuk
47. Zephaniah
48. Haggai
49. Zechariah
50. Malachi
51. Sirach
52. Josippon

In the New Testament

List of New Testament books in the Orthodox Tewahedo Bible, including the broader canon:

1. Matthew
2. Mark
3. Luke
4. John
5. Acts
6. Romans
7. I Corinthians
8. II Corinthians
9. Galatians
10. Ephesians
11. Philippians
12. Colossians
13. I Thessalonians
14. II Thessalonians
15. I Timothy
16. II Timothy
17. Titus
18. Philemon
19. Hebrews
20. I Peter
21. II Peter
22. I John
23. II John
24. III John
25. James
26. Jude
27. Revelation
28. I Sinodos (“Ser`atä Seyon” - 30 canons)
29. II Sinodos (“Te'ezaz” - 71 canons)
30. III Sinodos (“Gessew” - 56 canons)
31. IV Sinodos (“Abtelis” - 81 canons)
32. I Covenant
33. II Covenant
34. Ethiopic Clement
35. Ethiopic Didascalia

Only then, that shown above would make sense to me! 🙂

Side Note …

- Information is given for “Meqabyan” on the Article page.

- The total number of books between the OT and NT above, would add up to a Total of 87 books instead of 81.

(I may edit this comment later with additional side notes)! Craig Lungren (talk) 18:04, 6 May 2023 (UTC)