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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 2600:6c40:4a00:5400:f5ce:578b:e32d:6841 (talk) at 11:44, 28 January 2024 (→‎Even Weirder: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

It is SYNTH

It is SYNTH to entwine statements from a paper that only serves to explain the method used (NB Walsh et al. (2017) obviously only use contemporary samples with know phenotype) with results of second study that applies this method to ancient specimens. It is good to have Walsh et al. (2017) for background information, but it is not good to make it appear as if they have touched any aDNA. –Austronesier (talk) 19:10, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Austronesier: Thanks, and happy festive season! There's a similar problem over at Cheddar man if you're in the fixin' mood... Tewdar (talk) 19:25, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Tewdar: Nadelik Lowen! And well, maybe later, but I'm oh so lazy know, after all it's the encyclopedia that anyone can edit :) –Austronesier (talk) 19:33, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Austronesier: Nadelik lowen dhiso, ynwedh! Yeah, I'm feeling a bit lazy too - way too much food and drink in my house at this time of year! 🍻🍗🍰👍 Tewdar (talk) 19:36, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Research Section

I have copy edited the research section to attempt to turn it into something resembling prose. Removing inline paranthetical citation is in line with policy which deprecates such citations. I have attempted to join up the studies that support each other. No references are lost, and the authors are all cited in the references. I removed a little extra detail but at this point have left in, in my opinion, too much detail. The details of alleles, haplotypes and such like is detail that can mostly sit in the cited papers. The prose really just needs to draw out what the papers show. We could put some of the detail in efn notes though. In any case I will leave it at that and see how the changes sit with other editors before attempting any further improvement. What I haven't done at this point is include any useful secondary sources that would help ensure that our presentation here is properly balanced. The section is still too reliant on primary sources. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:59, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This was a good first step, but many parts are still nightmarishly repetitive and over-detailed (especially the usual haplogroup-combing of sources). –Austronesier (talk) 20:58, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Validity of pigmentation predictions

So we have now a SYNTH-concoction of hand-picked statements (well, less synthish now) to express our unease about the validity of pigmentation predictions. Why do I not see this unease added to Yamnaya culture and Eastern Hunter-Gatherer? Is it because for these popuplations, light skin is predicted? Austronesier (talk) 09:05, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't checked all of those sources, and may not get a chance today, but in general I do not think we should be adding 'concerns' about the 'validity' of pigmentation predictions to an article about WHGs using sources that aren't really talking about the pigmentation of WHGs.  Tewdar  09:36, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
At most, I would support a very short sentence somewhere in the physical appearance section stating that these predictions are limited by aDNA quality, lack of knowledge, etc. This certainly doesn't need its own (sub)section in this article.  Tewdar  09:41, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, a fairly simple mention about general "caution" regarding DnA analysis and phenotype deductions should suffice, per available sources. I also agree it sounds a bit biased to only use such a "disclaimer" for the "dark-skinned" WHGs. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 10:18, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't mind similar disclaimers getting added to other ancient population articles as long as this can be done without improper synthesis i.e. sourced to an article describing phenotype predictions of specific groups.  Tewdar  12:17, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Graphs for periods BC/BP

It is a pity with good scholars not grasping that their plotter naturally plots data ascending from left to right, however, cannot read "BC" or "BP", which SIMPLY has to be told him by multplying the x-axis data by "-1! This sloppy procedure leads to the completely unnecessarily cruelly confusing result that dates from in each case only B.C. or A.D.. Chr. run contrary. Thanks, this probably was not the mistake of the provider of this particular graph.HJJHolm (talk) 16:07, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Even Weirder

It’s a good thing this article exists on Wikipedia, because otherwise, this concept would be virtually unknown. A search on JSTOR for the term “western hunter gatherers” returns a grand total of 2 papers published in peer-reviewed journals during the last 4 years: 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023. Since this concept is definitely not fringe, obscure, junk science, it’s a good thing that it’s been written about so extensively on Wikipedia, because apparently it isn’t being pursued at all in the scientific community. In fact, the Wikipedia articles written about “eastern hunter gatherers”, “central hunter gatherers” , “western . .”, etc, comprise more pages than all of the papers published in peer-reviewed journals about these topics during the last 4 years. Thank goodness the authors of these Wikipedia articles have so much experience working with peer-reviewed research, and were able to recognize the importance of these topics, when apparently the scientific community hasn’t. Let’s hope that 3 papers about "western hunter gatherers" are published in peer-reviewed journals during 2025, so that the average can be brought-up to one peer-reviewed paper per year for 5 consecutive years, because I’m concerned that at the current rate, this concept will likely be extinct by 2030, and this definitely isn't fringe, obscure, junk science, so we definitely don't want this topic to go extinct. 2600:6C40:4A00:5400:FD9B:40B6:A183:8B19 (talk) 04:28, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, old friend 😁 Here are the Google Scholar results since 2020 for "Western Hunter-Gatherer". Looks like the concept of a distinctive "Villabruna cluster" (remember to search for that, too) is holding up quite well.  Tewdar  10:28, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This 2023 article would probably be a nice introduction for you to read.  Tewdar  10:32, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But Tewdar, Nature and Science are not peer-reviewd. It's a myth. These are same journal that failed to spread the truth during the "pandemic". I have repeatedly told you not to replace your tin foil hat with a Tesco paper bag. Yes, it's cheaper and easier to get, but see now what 5G has done to you. Nature! Tsk, tsk... –Austronesier (talk) 12:56, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Next you'll be telling me that archæology, archaeology, and archeology are spelling variations for the same word! You clearly have no experience working with peer-reviewed research! 😂  Tewdar  13:43, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You know what, I just wrote a novel, realized I was allowing myself to get sucked into another bickering contest with you, and I'm not going to do that again. Let's make this easy, just find a single peer-reviewed paper publishing new data about "western hunter-gatherers" since 2020. Not a paper which simply cites the same old data published prior to 2020. Just find one peer-reviewed paper, published in a peer-reviewed journal, containing new data about "western hunter gatherers", that's been published since 2020. That's it. That's all I'm asking. If you can do that, I'll keep my mouth shut. Again, not a paper which simply cites the old data. A paper published in a peer-reviewed journal which is focused on new data about western hunter gatherers. Look, my man, in the paper you linked to on Nature, the authors simply cited the same old papers published about WHG prior to 2020. That's why every time WHG is mentioned in that paper, it's followed by citations which link to the original papers all published before 2020. If WHG is a genuine topic of interest within the scientific community, then locate one paper published within the last 4 years containing new data specifically about WHG. This will demonstrate that someone somewhere is actually continuing to conduct research into WHG. I'm not going to get into another nitpicking bickering contest with you. If you can find one paper published in a peer-reviewed journal containing new data specifically about WHG during the last 4 years, then I will keep my mouth shout. Because I can't find one. Anywhere. And you can nitpick and waste your time avoiding this challenge. And my response is going to the same every time. Find a paper published in a peer-reviewed journal which has published new data about WHG since 2020 to demonstrate that this topic is still being actively pursued by at least one person in the scientific community. I can't find one. Everything I look at, even the papers listed on JSTOR and Nature, all simply cite the same papers published prior to 2020. I'm not going to get into another bickering match with you. I've made a very simple challenge. I'm not going to respond to anything which doesn't pertain to this challenge. Find a paper, published in a peer-reviewed journal, which isn't simply citing the same old papers dating prior to 2020, which is publishing new data about WHG within the last 4 years. This will demonstrate that at least one research team is still conducting research into this topic. And I know you're going to fall into this pitfall, so let me head you off at the pass. "Look, this paper cites Allentoft, published in 2024." Don't say, "He cites a paper published this year." Because if you go to the Allentoft paper, everything he cites is the same old papers from prior to 2020. I just went through every single paper on Nature.com dated after 2020, and every single one of them cites the same papers dated prior to 2020 and is only using "western hunter gatherer(s)" and "WHG" in reference to the same papers published prior to 2020, and vast majority of those papers, are simply research papers (obviously) not publishing new data. Please find one paper about about WHG published since 2020 which is publishing new data about WHG, not simply saying, "This is how the data about WHG collected prior to 2020 relates to our data." Every single paper on Nature and JSTOR since 2020 has simply used WHG as a tool relevant to their data, in which they cite the same old papers dating from prior to 2020. Please locate a paper, written within the last four years, which is about western hunter gatherers, not how the old data about western hunter gatherers relates to their work. And honestly, of the papers I found on Nature, the majority of them were simply research papers, not offering any new data about anything. Anyway, from this point forward, that's going to be the only thing I respond to. Find a peer-reviewed paper published in a peer-reviewed journal which is about WHG, not someone simply citing old WHG papers as referential to their paper. I looked pretty extensively, and I couldn't find a single one. Let me know if you have better luck. 2600:6C40:4A00:5400:F5CE:578B:E32D:6841 (talk) 04:40, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
LOL. Wow. Joshua Jonathan just tried to delete my challenge. Okay, so let me make my challenge more explicit. Find one peer-reviewed paper, published in a peer-reviewed journal within the last 5 years, which is about "Western Hunter-Gatherers". Please, link to one peer-reviewed paper, published in a peer-reviewed journal, within the last 5 years, in which the term "Western Hunter-Gatherers" is in the title, and/or "Western Hunter-Gatherers" are the focus of the paper. Can't do it, can you Joshua? 2600:6C40:4A00:5400:9821:7ACD:207A:C1F2 (talk) 07:18, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What do you think Joshua? The fact that no peer-reviewed papers published within the last 5 years have focused on "Western Hunter-Gatherers" and no peer-reviewed papers published within the last 5 years have had that term included in the titles of their papers or focused primarily on this group, might suggest that no one is actually pursuing this group as an area of genuine scientific research? I don't know. I'm just following one logical point to the next. 2600:6C40:4A00:5400:9821:7ACD:207A:C1F2 (talk) 08:03, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We can play this game all day man, and you know as well as I do that when the admins review this interaction, they're not going to let you try to suppress the pursuit of reliable scientific data because you're feelings were hurt. 2600:6C40:4A00:5400:9821:7ACD:207A:C1F2 (talk) 08:39, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How about you check the supplementary tables and the supplement for that article I linked. Therein you will find newly published WHG/Villabruna/Oberkassel cluster individuals. Why are you surprised that a article would cite previous articles mentioning WHGs? That's called, uh, science... it would be a bit weird not to cite them.  Tewdar  09:04, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yup. Not gonna waste time on this. You suckered me into this before, and as I made abundantly clear, 7 times, I'm not gonna do it again. Cite a peer-reviewed paper published in a peer-reviewed journal within the last 5 years in which the focus is "Western Hunter Gatherers". I'm not going to goose-chase any of your tangents. I did that before. As I said before, simply respond to the challenge as I clearly laid it out. The reason you can't find any peer-reviewed papers with "Western Hunter-Gatherer" in the title and you can't find any peer-reviewed papers focused on WHG within the last 5 years, is because no one is actively pursuing this concept in the scientific community. Again, you simply avoided the plainly stated parameters I laid out, which if you had successfully followed, would have completely refuted my viewpoint. 2600:6C40:4A00:5400:9821:7ACD:207A:C1F2 (talk) 09:18, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you can find one paper published in a peer-reviewed journal containing new data specifically about WHG during the last 4 years, then I will keep my mouth shout - I'm guessing that last word wasn't a typo.  Tewdar  09:22, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you seriously going to be this childish? Now you want to bicker about typos? 2600:6C40:4A00:5400:9821:7ACD:207A:C1F2 (talk) 09:24, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, you said you'd keep quiet (?) if I provided data for new WHG individuals published since 2020. Which I did. By the way, about half of that article I linked is about 'Western Hunter-Gatherers". You just didn't understand it.  Tewdar  09:25, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, and again, you're simply using infantile tactics to avoid responding to the challenge, and as I've said 10 times, I'm not going to do this with you again. Find a paper published in a peer-reviewed journal within the last 5 years in which the focus is upon WHG, and WHG isn't simply cited using the same papers dated to prior to 2020. Find a peer-reviewed paper focusing upon WHG (not simply citing 7 year-old papers) within the last 5 years to demonstrate that this is a topic being actively pursued by at least one person within the scientific community. 2600:6C40:4A00:5400:9821:7ACD:207A:C1F2 (talk) 09:31, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Posth (2023) satisfies all of those demands I believe. Unfortunately it doesn't look like you understood it.  Tewdar  09:35, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right. Can you provide the link? 2600:6C40:4A00:5400:9821:7ACD:207A:C1F2 (talk) 09:41, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Posth (2023) is the article I already linked. It focuses on "Western Hunter-Gatherers", and the relationship between the previously identified Villabruna cluster and the newly identified Oberkassel cluster, features new data obtained from newly analysed individuals who fall within these clusters, and was published within the last five years. It cites previous papers because it builds upon earlier research, like all good science. In fact it would probably not have been published in Nature if it didn't cite these previous peer-reviewed papers. Tewdar  09:48, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So that paper isn't about WHG, and every reference it makes to WHG is followed by a citation linking to a paper dated prior to 2020. Again, you're using avoidance tactics. Find a paper about WHG, published in a peer-reviewed journal, within the last 5 years. Not something in which a research team cites the same 7 year-old research data and says, "See how this relates to our data?" I can't imagine you're having this much difficulty understanding this. If WHG is a genuine topic of scientific interest, then find a paper published in a peer-reviewed journal about WHG within the last 5 years. Again, not about how the papers from 7 years ago relate to their research about a topic in a paper they published this year. Find a paper about WHG which shows that WHG is currently being actively researched. Find a single paper about WHG published within the last 5 years. 2600:6C40:4A00:5400:9821:7ACD:207A:C1F2 (talk) 10:01, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is, you don't understand that the article I linked is about Western Hunter-Gatherers. You don't understand what the Villabruna cluster is, or what the Oberkassel cluster is. I'd bet good money that you do not know what a cluster is, in this context. All you seem to be able to do, is ctrl+F for "WHG", see some citations to previous papers, and then come back here and write a few paragraphs that tells everybody reading that you do not understand this subject. There have by now been dozens of peer-reviewed articles and books, even outside of genetics, that accept that 'Western Hunter-Gatherer' is a useful and valid term for describing the post-glacial populations of Europe. Nobody is saying that everyone in Western Europe in the Mesolithic was genetically identical.  Tewdar  10:15, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yup. Another tangent. As I said, I'm not going to go down this path with you again. All you have is avoidance tactics. You still haven't found a paper about WHG publishing new data about WHG within the last 5 years. The best you've got is, "Look, I can make the argument . . " You can't find a paper with WHG in the title, or in which WHG is the primary focus of the paper, can you? I'm not going to waste time bickering with you about your avoidance tactics. Find a single paper in which WHG is in the title, or is the primary focus of the paper. And saying, "But look, I can make the argument that . . " isn't going to cut it. Yup, all of those papers on Nature cite the old data, so you could ostensibly argue that since the old data relates to the new data . . That's why I laid-out the parameters specifically as I did. Don't make a lame argument as though you're writing an essay for your 10th grade socio class. Find a peer-reviewed paper in which WHG is in the title, or is the focus of the paper, and it provides new data specifically about WHG since 2020. Not, "Even though the data this paper cites all dates to prior 2020, it ties in the old data with the new, so I think this means that there are people who are actively pursuing WHG." This is a sad attempt to circumvent the parameters of the challenge. And leave-off the baiting. Can you leave a single reply without behaving like a child? "I don't think you know what a cluster is" Ooh, you got me, zinger. Is it possible for you to just stick to the topic and not reply with sad attempts at insults, emojis, and "LOL"? Seriously, is it completely outside your capacity to behave like an adult? 2600:6C40:4A00:5400:9821:7ACD:207A:C1F2 (talk) 10:33, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Posth paper publishes new data. It's about WHGs. It was published in 2023. Here is another paper (Allentoft 2024) for you to try. Look at the supplementary tables. You see all those samples labelled 'HG_EuropeW' first published in 'Allentoft_Nature_2023'. Hmm. I wonder what that could possibly mean? 🤔  Tewdar  10:40, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, so now you're just repeating the same stupid point, because you can find a legitimate counter-argument. 2600:6C40:4A00:5400:9821:7ACD:207A:C1F2 (talk) 10:51, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Posth (2023) and Allentoft (2024) are what you asked for: papers about WHG publishing new data about WHG within the last 5 years. If you cannot understand this, then I can't do anything more to help you today.  Tewdar  11:00, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You'd have to actually read the paper though, to be aware of how the terms WHG, Villabruna, and Oberkassel relate to each other.  Tewdar  09:08, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, so then your point is that WHG should be rolled into Villabruna, right? Because when I read that paper (and that was literally the only paper on Nature that offered genuinely new data since 2020), that paper said that WHG is simply another name for Villabruna. 2600:6C40:4A00:5400:9821:7ACD:207A:C1F2 (talk) 09:23, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, you have not read the article properly.  Tewdar  09:26, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jesus, my man, as I said in my original reply, both of those papers simply cite the same old papers from prior to 2020. How are you failing to comprehend this? New data specific to WHG, not how the old data about WHG relates to new data about other topics. New data from research teams specifically researching WHG. How are you not getting this? Not how data published in 2016 relates to new data about another topic. New data specific to WHG, published in a paper about WHG, demonstrating that someone is actively researching WHG, not that someone utilized data about WHG as work-cited in a recent paper. Demonstrate that someone is actively researching WHG by finding a peer-reviewed paper with WHG in the title, or in which WHG is primary focus of the paper. How are you not understanding this? 2600:6C40:4A00:5400:F5CE:578B:E32D:6841 (talk) 11:44, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Drmies and RegentsPark: am I correct when I think that this is a violation of WP:FORUM and disruptive? See also the archives; this IP has been ranting here for a couple of years now. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:33, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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