Talk:Congregation Beth Israel (Meridian, Mississippi)

Congregation Beth Israel (Meridian, Mississippi) has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
July 4, 2010	Good article nominee	Listed

National Register of Historic Places Low‑importance

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United States: Mississippi Low‑importance

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Judaism Low‑importance

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Cemeteries Low‑importance

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Previous discussions

There were previous discussions supporting development of material now in this page, at Talk:Beth Israel Cemetery (Meridian, Mississippi) and perhaps also at User talk:Doncram#Beth Israel Cemetery (Meridian, Mississippi) and User talk:Dudemanfellabra. The section on the cemetery was largely developed by Dudemanfellabra while the material was at Beth Israel Cemetery (Meridian, Mississippi), which redirects to the section of this article now. ( Great pics of the shoes on the grave and the fainting couch one, by the way! )--doncram (talk) 16:15, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Development

The article seems very good! I like the revised cemetery section with its additional pictures now, illustrating the Victorian funerary art theme. Two small gnits:

About the synagogue, i wonder if there is some small refinement needed to avoid reader confusion about the front vs. back of the building. If the front is the one shown below, labelled as front, then is the pic at the top of the article actually the back of the building? Maybe if there were an additional perspective view of the whole building from further back, it would be clear what are the relationships, and no wording would need to be changed anywhere. I don't want to suggest heavy-handed labelling, it just is minorly confusing if one focusses on this.
About the glass used from the bombed building, i assume that there are shattered glass fragments, not whole panels surviving? If it is fragments, are those included in lower sections in the first or 2nd tiers that, from afar, could possibly be composites? Or, maybe those lower sections are rock walls or something, and the glass is only in the larger panel sections above. The larger panels here could possibly still be small relatively to larger panels at the former building. Basically i have no idea where the glass from the bombed building was used. I dunno if an arrow added to the pic of the front of the synagogue is needed, or if it could be addressed less heavy-handedly in the text. --doncram (talk) 16:26, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you look closely in the infobox picture just to the left of the handicapped parking sign, you can see the red beams shown in the picture of the windows. The concrete monument visible in the foreground of the window shot is also visible in the infobox just to the right of a bush and kind of behind a pole in the walkway. Both shots are of the front of the building.

If you look closely at the window shot (click on the image to bring up full size), you will see that the windows are pieced together like stained glass windows. I assume that there are shards in there from the original education building, but there may very well be entire panels. The source doesn't specify, so I just took a picture of the entire front window scheme haha.. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 16:50, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, i see they are the same end of the building. Who says it is the "front" though? The front of a protestant or catholic church, when you're looking at a building from outside, might be considered the steeple end, facing the street. But inside, the front of the church is the far end from the street, and then if u think of it that way the front of the church from the outside also should be the far end from the street. Maybe avoid usage of "front" everywhere, and just label the top pic as a "viewed from the southwest" (if that is accurate) and label the closer-up pic as a "closer view from the west" (if that is accurate). --doncram (talk) 17:13, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see what you mean. A little semantic... but I see what you mean :P. And dang dude.. that was a good job with the cardinal directions haha. Was that a guess? Pretty good one! --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 17:19, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

maybe i am closer than u think? i have a lot invested here, so why wouldn't i be visiting. or maybe i am from here? u r slow to pick up. do u kno Mike Davis by the way. --doncram (talk) 18:08, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ha. No, I don't know Mike Davis. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 19:34, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Congregation Beth Israel (Meridian, Mississippi)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

GA review (see here for criteria)

This is a nice and very interesting piece of work, but it still has some shortcomings with respect to the good article criteria.

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS):
See below
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
See below
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
The images are excellent!
Overall:
Pass/Fail:
I enjoyed reading this article and it is a valuable addition. I'm sure these issues can be resolved.

On substance:

The first paragraph of the "Cemetery" section is unclear and somewhat duplicative. It seems to have been written for when the Cemetery was its own article, and needs to better reflect that the discussion of the congregation's history and buildings has already occurred above it.

Done.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 20:21, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't see this Time magazine article from 1951 (from the Paula Ackerman article) used as a source; it says Beth Israel had 100 members and was the second largest congregation in the state at the time, both items of which are worthy of inclusion here.

Done. I didn't find that article when searching around. Thanks for that! --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 20:21, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What became of the Greek Revival octagonal building once the congregation left? Is it still standing and if so for what purpose is it used? And what became of the earlier Middle Eastern style building when the congregation left it?

Well, both of them have been demolished (I live in the city), but I can't find a source that says so. The closest I can get is the cemetery's NRHP nomination form (which I requested from the National Park Service), which says that the buildings were "replaced" with the new facility in 1964. I don't know if this means both buildings were demolished in 1964, or if they just left the buildings to be demolished later (Also, the Middle Eastern style building may have even been demolished before that). I can assure you that the buildings are no longer there, though. They had obviously been demolished by the time the author of the NRHP form was writing (1989) because he says the cemetery is the "only remaining built memorial for many of Meridian's early Jews." If you can find a source saying when they were demolished, I would love you forever haha.. but I've searched and couldn't find any. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 20:21, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Replaced" doesn't say anything. If nothing else can be found, simply say that neither building is still standing. We trust you with all these photos, we trust you to know if the buildings are gone. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:08, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So should I just add an unsourced addition? I thought not having unsourced material was one of the main pennants of the GA process haha :P. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 07:07, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article gives the addresses of the past buildings, so someone can verify that they aren't there now by going there and taking a look. (That's how many photographs taken by WP editors can be verified, for instance.) Google Earth also serves the same purpose. I've changed the text to state that neither building still stands. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:25, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The history has a big gap from 1968 to 'today'. What happened in between? When did the Jewish population decline in numbers and demographics and why? Where did they go?
Have you perused the Google News Archives for anything during that period, e.g. this search here? Or for any other period?

Woh! I didn't know Google had this! I'll be looking around on here much later today. I have to go for now, though.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 20:21, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've added in some information about the bombings themselves, but I couldn't find anything about the congregation after that. Nothing really notable happened there haha.. it was just a church like all the rest :P. About the Jewish population decline, the entire population of the city has been declining since the 70s, so its easy to see that the Jewish population has been declining. I'm not sure how to address this issue, though. I can't find any sources specifically talking about the Jewish population, but I could add a little about the entire city's decline, although I feel like connecting that with the congregation's decline would be a little WP:OR. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 22:07, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm.. I found this site that talks about Jews in Mississippi. There's a section, Population in decline, that talks about the Jewish decline in the state (though it never mentions Meridian specifically). Think this would be material to add in? --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 22:24, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly the decline of Jews in the state can be mentioned. I'd also mention the decline of the general population in Meridian. Adding relevant demographic context isn't OR. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:08, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I've added a discussion about the decline.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 07:07, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of which, section titles like "Beth Israel today" and words like "recent" and "today" are a bit problematic. This article is still going to be around 25 and 50 years from now, and has to make sense then too. It is better to write "in the 2000s" or "as of 2009" or some formulation like that.

Done. Changed to Decline of the Jewish population in reference to the above.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 07:07, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's worth noting that the congregation is trying to expand, by offering up to $25,000 to families to move to Meridian (see here and here). If there are any news articles discussing this effort, even better.

Done. I couldn't find any 3rd party sources, but I included the info from their About Us. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 07:07, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On style:

The lead section seems a little short for an article of this length. The rise and fall of the Jewish population in the area could be noted, as could the Klan bombing. That the cemetery was listed in the National Register of Historic Places should be mentioned in the article body as well as the lead.

Done. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 16:59, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Mrs." is not used in articles to refer to people and first name only is best avoided if possible. In this case, just use "Paula Ackerman" or "her".

Done. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 16:59, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given that she (deservedly) has her own article, I'm not sure that the "Ackerman would later move to her original home ..." sentence is needed here, or if it is, it should be placed in parentheses to indicate it's an aside.

Well, I thought it was a good addition to the article showing that she went on to defy the critics again later in her life. I think it shows some of her character. I'm not opposed to taking it out, but I personally would like to keep it in there... --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 16:59, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, but it should be in parens, since it's an aside. I've added them. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:08, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Street names (such as "Ave" and "St" and "Ct") should be spelled out in full.

Done. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 16:59, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The second word in the "External links" section title should not be capitalized.

Done. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 16:59, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The citation formatting is a little substandard. Publishers like National Park Service should be linked. Newspaper names like The Meridian Star should be in italics and The Jewish Week should be linked. Entries like "From Rebbetzin to Rabbi: The Journey of Paula Ackerman" need to list a publisher. Entries like "Congregation Beth Israel – About Us" should show "About Us" as the title and Congregation Beth Israel as the publisher (but not linked, since it would just point back here and get rendered in bold). Internally, the "cite web" usages should be "cite news" for newspapers, and the "newspaper" parameter should be used for the newspaper name, not "publisher" (which doesn't use italics) or "work" (which renders correctly but is less specific).

Done. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 16:59, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, I've run out of time this morning. I'll write up the 'substance' part of the review tonight. Wasted Time R (talk) 10:54, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Wasted Time R (talk) 10:54, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've now added the 'substance' part. I'll look it over some more and the changes that have been made in response to the earlier comments, tonight. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:09, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A remark about ALT texts for images. It's never been clear to me whether they are a GA requirement or not; the official criteria don't list it, but reviewers I've dealt with on articles I've put up have wanted them. I added one for the top photo here, but given how many images there are in this article and how tiring it can be to write the ALT texts, I won't require them for GA. ... Moreover, I've just taken another look at WP:ALT, and the requirements in this area have radically changed just in the last few weeks. I think things may be in flux, so I certainly don't expect any ALT work to be necessary until things are clearer over there. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:47, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've made a few additions and wording tweaks for things I didn't discuss here. With that, I believe all issues have been addressed and I'm passing the article. Good job. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:32, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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