Talk:Cut-up technique

Literacy of hiphoppers

"Some have suggested these practices are a form of cut-ups, but most such musicians are probably unaware of Tzara, Burroughs or Gysin (DJ Spooky being an exception)." DJ Spooky is likely not the only literate and historically knowlegeable person in hip-hop or electronic music. Consider revision. unsigned comment by User:84.222.71.200, way back on 07:16, 14 February 2005

The implication is not that hip-hoppers are illiterate, but that their technique is derived from musical precedents (e.g. Jamaican sound systems & toasting, which had made their way to the Bronx by the late '70s), rather than from literary techniques. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:33, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

"Some have suggested these practices are a form of cut-ups, but most such musicians are probably unaware of Tzara, Burroughs or Gysin (DJ Spooky being an exception)." WTF wikipedia.... source this with existing or original research and it can stay, otherwise this serves only as a great example of the glib and unprofessional nature of many wikipedia articles.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.67.7.219 (talk • contribs) 06:17, 6 December 2006

I've just removed what's left of this paragraph (which in any event, lacked any attribution though it's been an issue on this discussion page since Feb. 2005). Again, hip-hop and sound collage are audio techniques; cut-up is a literary technique. All may be forms of collage but "collage" does not equal "cut-up". See my comments elsewhere on this talk page. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Found poetry

Does 'found poetry' merit a definition of its own? It differs specifically from cut-up in that the material in the latter may be exclusively generated by the producer of the new work, whilst in the former it is more generally a manipulation of the original work of other artists.

Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite

Would the solo from The Beatles' "Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite" fit into this category, or does it have to do only with words (they cut recordings of the instrument into irregular lengths, threw them into the air, and taped them back together at random, not even checking to see if they were forwards or backwards)?

An interesting idea. I see no reason why cut-up technique or its originators would have frowned on such a process, so add a mention if you feel up for it. sjc

More likely that The Beatles and/or George Martin were influenced by musique concrete which has been around almost as long as tape recorders have been available. For all I know, musique concrete was influenced by Tzara's earlier methods, but doesn't necessarily have anything to do with beat generation cut-up technique. On the other hand, the practitioners of musique concrete and cut-ups may have been fully aware of each other. But it seems simpler to to trace such developments in psychedelic music, electronic music, hip-hop, etc. to earlier musical experiments (e.g. musique concrete) moreso than literary experiments. Gyrofrog

Redux

On a related note, it seems more sensible to trace the use of a montage sequence in film, music video, etc. to Soviet montage theory (or at least film-related techniques in general). Again, cut-up is a literary technique. Both audio and film montage predate cut-ups. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:44, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Computerized randomization

I've read "compositions" by computer programs that formed random sentences, based on existing texts. The program developers (and some reviewers) said that the results had a flavor similar to (or at least amusingly reminiscent of) the originals. Can we mention this in the article, or link to a new article describing the computer technique? --Ed Poor

The article is still fairly short, so more material isn't a problem. computer-generated cut-ups are extensions of the original premise perhaps. Is Mr Kite cut-up, or Cubomania? For that matter, is Cubomania a type of cut-up? - Tarquin 07:04 Jul 31, 2002 (PDT)

I'm not sure how to answer this question. In cubomania, an image is cut into a number of equal-sized squares, which are then rearragned, automatically or at random, into the same size as the original image. But I don't know if it would be defined as a "cut-up" or no. --Daniel C. Boyer 15:48, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Markov chaining is one of the programmable techniques used to produce the type of compositions mentioned. So far as I understand it, this involves recording the frequency of different word (or character) adjacencies and then randomly reproducing a text with the same or similar frequencies.

More or less. It uses the frequencies of word adjacencies and then randomly selects words based on the preceding word using the recorded frequencies as probabilities. The results can be pretty funny. — Gwalla | Talk 23:01, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, I think that at least some material on computerized cut-ups is warranted, so I added a "travesty" section. I think there's a notable hole in Wikipedia when it comes to travesty generators. Reinderien^{talk/contribs} 20:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Record stores

"DJs may spend hours in record stores [...]"

The way to find unique music, just like with clothes, is thrift stores. I remember an interview with buck65 where he mentioned not wanting to re-release his old shit since he liked that feeling of being in a thrift-store, flipping through dusty lp's, and finding something really underground. I would also say finding cool stuff to add to your music/wuddeva occurs more just from intaking loads and loads of art, (it's only possible for those that live and breath it). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Seas (talk • contribs) 08:19, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Claims Tzara incited a riot

The article claims "Tristan Tzara offered to create a poem on the spot by pulling words at random from a hat. A riot ensued and André Breton expelled Tzara from the movement." Is there any citation for this? The claim was made by Burroughs several times but, while Tzara was involved in several riots, I've not seen any evidence that Tzara's random poetry was the cause of any of them. Thanks!

I Agree, I've heard that Breton and Tzara got into a few fights but never caused by his poetry, also

Breton never expelled Tzara from dadaism. It also mentions surrealism which at the time (1920) didn't

quite exist

Why WPVA

Why is this article considered "within the scope of WikiProject Visual art?" "Cut-up technique" seems to involve literature and music, not Visual art. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bus stop (talk • contribs).

The bot probably did all the techniques in the Surrealist techniques category. --sparkit^TALK 23:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Yup, that's a good explanation. I'm removing the tag. Planetneutral 23:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The Cut Up is visual . correctopiumjones 23 (talk) 01:38, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Literary Influences

Is now blank~............... needs some work re Burroughs novels and other writers. Who will help?

porridge moved correctly to music

opiumjones 23 (talk) 01:10, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Removed Interpol video

I'm removing the reference to the Interpol video. I'm not familiar with it but as described, it isn't a cut-up - a montage, perhaps, but that's an older film technique, and cut-up is a literary technique. (This isn't the first time someone has cited a film or audio montage as an example of cut-ups; see earlier Beatles discussion.) If anything this technique has roots in (for example) early Soviet cinema, which predates cut-ups (and probably musique concrete, for that matter). In any event, there's no attribution for this analysis, and it appears to be original research. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Cut up Collage

I saw this in the links. Should this be added to the article? 76.91.186.42 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:35, 12 June 2010 (UTC).

Do you mean http://paradox.rambisyouth.com? I am not sure whether it meets notability criteria. I am also unsure whether this is more of a cut-up or a photomontage (or both). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:36, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

link to online cut-up technique tool

I've added this link a few times and each time it has been deleted. I think this is a useful and appropriate website tool that allows users to apply the cut-up technique to today's news. Please take a look: http://www.publicassemblage.com The site appears to be a free tool that can be used by anybody (as long as they have flash) and is directly related to the cut-up technique. If you are removing this link, please explain your reasoning. In my opinion this site could only encourage the use of the cut-up technique. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitlegit (talk • contribs) 19:57, 14 September 2010 (UTC) Agree. Here's another link to a satirical post modern essay generator, which is essentially a cut-up technique using a set of postmodern related language and references. http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.101.27.187 (talk) 19:01, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Caleb Whitefoord (1734-1810)

I am always wary about "ancestors" for the 20th century avant-garde and esp. for stuff like comics, but Caleb Whitefoord around 1766 did a lot of WSB-stuff with newspapers, Austin Kleon and others have recently noticed, I have been told about it by de:User:F2hg.amsterdam.--Radh (talk) 10:24, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

BBC documentary

There was a good BBC Radio 4 documentary within the last year or so on Burroughs/Cut-up. Would be good in External links. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:01, 3 July 2014 (UTC).

The article now has text that cites that documentary. However, I fundamentally disagree with the documentary's premise. Cut-up is an aleatory technique; deliberately re-editing a Ronald Reagan speech (for example) is the opposite of aleatory. Such efforts may have been inspired by cut-ups, but they're not the same. The BBC program seems to have confused cut-up with montage/collage in general. Cut-up is a type of collage but collages are not necessarily cut-ups (i.e. aleatory). I'm inclined to remove this information as per WP:ONUS but for now I'm going to flag it. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 02:36, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and removed the section, based on my earlier comment. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:35, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Bob Dylan

Bob Dylan is often said to have used this technique and it is not unlikley. But there is no evidence for asserting this is so, in his writings or in others' writings who have known him?

Just people guessing?

EDLIS Café 14:45, 3 October 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EdRicardo (talk • contribs)