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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cewbot (talk | contribs) at 15:52, 13 February 2024 (Maintain {{WPBS}}: 3 WikiProject templates. Keep majority rating "C" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 3 same ratings as {{WPBS}} in {{WikiProject Biography}}, {{WikiProject Italy}}, {{WikiProject Cycling}}.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Di or di?

Thanks to Mais Oui! for paying attention to my request that, before any further moves be made, the matter should be discussed on the talk page...

I thought Wikipedia could not reference itself. Then, why do you claim the Italian Wikipedia is a valid source? Secondly; Magnus Bäckstedt's name is written with an umlaut - "ä". On his website, nevertheless, he writes it as Backstedt... A name given on the riders' website is not necessarily correct. Óscar Pereiro alternates between Óscar and Oscar on his website. Does that mean both are correct? No, it doesn't.

In Italian, the particle "di" in surnames, just like Dutch van, German von, Spanish de or French de, NEVER goes in capital letters. Period.

Unless somebody gives really good arguments not to do so in the next 24 hours, I will remove this page back to Danilo di Luca and expect some very good reasoning from anybody who complains about it. -- Danilot 14:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A month goes by and the page name is reverted without any reference to the talk page - that is a sorry state. Instead of an attempt to build consensus, one editor deems his opinion to be higher than the opinion of all others. With specific reference to the edit summary, Mr Di Luca uses a capital "D" himself: he should know how to spell his own name, yes you would hope so, but that doesn't mean he does know how to spell his own name. WP:V#SELF warns against the reliability of self-sources. Could anyone please supply reliable and independent sources either explaining how Italian names work, or how this name in particular is spelt. To be honest, I have no idea what is right, but the constant reverting without references is good for no one and nothing. Regards, SeveroTC 23:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Truth is (I am Italian for that matters) that in Italy until the institution of an appropriate office (known as anagrafe) those names were written carelessly, because every single kingdom of the peninsula had different rules, and basically the de/De/di/Di/degli/Degli etc. was considered an useless particle (for instance Durante degli Alighieri is commonly known as Dante Alighieri). Thus, the situation now is that the name is whatever is written in the birth certificate, and we have names such as De Nicola/de Nicola/Denicola and so on; each is different, although it's obvious they were originally the same. In internet there's a funny analysis written by Andrea de Prisco [1] which shows how his name changed over the centuries (in official documents), switching back and forth between the forms "Prisco", "di Prisco", "de Prisco", De Prisco". To get to the point: if Di Luca writes his name in this way, it's probably the correct form of his name, as written on his birth certificate, and it's a different name (officially) from "di Luca". --Εξαίρετος (msg) 07:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Scots are very familar with this lack of standardisation of name spellings. MacDonald, McDonald, Macdonald, M'Donald, and other versions, have all been used to represent the Gaelic original MacDhomnhaill. And of course Donaldson is just a straight Anglicisation; and Donald is just the name of the clan without the "son of" bit (mac). All basically the same name, but not spelt the same here at Wikipedia. --Mais oui! 07:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I should have mentioned that women were traditionally NicDonald (daughter of), and I have actually seen a few examples of this even in the English language versions of names. --Mais oui! 07:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nice! In Italy it was more or less the same, except that the clans (gentes) were abolished with the fall of the Roman Empire, and now they're just first names (e.g. gens Julia, gens Claudia); after that there were so many different nations (often the size of a city), languages, and customs that each family name evolved separately. For instance Fabbri, Ferrari and Ferrero share the same origin (they mean "Smith"), while Esposito and Degli Esposti were given to abandoned (nameless) children. --Εξαίρετος (msg) 09:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So, Εξαίρετος, does the body governing Italian language specifiy which of these is "more correct" in modern Italian? -- Danilot 14:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. Not to mention that AFAIK there's no "body governing Italian language" at the moment, and the last one I know of was around the time of the Fascist government, although there are a couple of dictionaries and grammars commonly used as reference. My understanding of modern usage is that when the "di" or "de" is used as a "nobility particle" (particella nobiliare) it's generally written lower-case, in any other case it's considered part of the name, and thus capitalized. For instance Emanuele Filiberto, Prince of Venice and Piedmont's full name is "Emanuele Umberto Reza Ciro René Maria Filiberto di Savoia"; in this case, since the Republic doesn't acknowledge the nobility title, Savoia is considered the family name and "di" a nobility particle. But it really depends on what's written on the birth certificate; I've known several people who "changed" name because of a bureaucratic error at the anagrafe office. The most reliable source you could find is that certificate, or something that was issued using that certificate, such as the identity document, which in Italy is used to validate any other official document. --Εξαίρετος (msg) 15:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So it sounds to me like it should be Danilo Di Luca (which is how the Italian cycling fed also have it)? SeveroTC 18:11, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vuelta al País Vasco

the article says this;

During his time at Saeco-Longoni he had a long stroke of bad luck, which began when he lost the Vuelta al País Vasco on the last stage, a mountain time trial in which Andreas Klöden took the lead and the final win. Combined with a succession of injuries and a lack of confidence of the team directors, his performance suffered for many years.

but Andreas Kloden didnt win the vuelta al pais vasco that year he won in 2000 , so did this event occur in 2000 or in 2002? otherwise a good story about his quiet years 2002-2004 so worth mentioning this part of the story, Eugenepunk

Cyclingnews.com coverage: 2000, good spot! SeveroTC 16:35, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Doping allegations for 2007 Giro?

Any thoughts on including recent allegations of doping? Di Luca allegedly had abnormally low testosterone, which may indicate use of masking products and other substances. Should we wait to print this? --Dylanfly 14:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would usually wait - Wikipedia is not a news source after all - and when more news comes through there will be plenty of sources to say what happened. As it is, it's an out of competition test during competition which showed levels of testosterone which studies have proven in the past to be normal anyway.... SeveroTC 14:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good point Severo. What do you mean you used to be a Gnome? 'zat a wikipedia term? or... ? --Dylanfly 00:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I included it, but before reading this talk page. --Pie.er 10:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Teammates necessary??

I don't understand why people want to list teammates, unless it's particularly relevant to the article. I mean why does Magnus Backstedt belong here? Maybe for someone like George Hincapie, you want to point out that he rode FOR Lance Armstrong--I mean that DEFINES his professional identity. But Di Luca was never a real domestique for the guys listed. I mean are we supposed to list his whole Liquigas team? Why? I say we zap the teammates. --Dylanfly 00:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There was some discussion about this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cycling#Team templates. The team templates have been around for a number of years, {{TMO}} was created on July 31, 2004 and {{Team CSC}} in November 2005. (The deprecated and since deleted {{USP}} was also pretty old, but since the history is not available I can't tell you how old!) However, they were only introduced comprehensively in January 2007. There needs to be a way to group together cyclists from the same team. Categories, however, present problems when it comes to cycling teams: just what the hell to call them. In other sports, they categorise the athlete in every team they have competed for, yet this depends on static names. How could you do this in cycling where teams change their names every other year? There is debate about categorisation at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cycling/Archive 1#Category:Cyclists. I believe a template is the best solution for grouping together the like group of cyclists in this instance. Like all good ideas, the implementation was stolen from another project, but one which has had it's own problems in the over proliferation of such templates. The style of template was originally made for WikiProject Football. I also believe cycling teams - at 30 riders - are the upper limit of what should go in a template. To be honest, I think we have this one right - and it's of no surprise that other language wiki's copy our ideas when it comes to templates! Regards, SeveroTC 07:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I also think the team mates template is relevant for the article. But maybe not as relevant as other information... Maybe the team templates should be collapsed automatically, like for example Template:Germanic-speaking regions of Europe. But this is something for Category:Cycling team templates talk. I say bring back the team mates on this page. --Pie.er 10:40, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I hadn't noticed it had been removed so I have now restored it. You can't really delete it from one page without looking at the issue in the few hundred other pages which have team templates so, as Pie.er says, the discussion is for elsewhere. SeveroTC 11:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think that it is relevant to the sporting career of the cyclist to mention their teammates and to list the current teammates in the template as the teammates play a role in the development of the team and the leadership duties of the team. For example after Magnus Backstedt won Paris-Roubaix in 2004, the Liquigas team which was on the up, grew stronger by acquiring Di Luca, The leadership choice within any team and perhaps rivalry (which has not become an issue in Liquigas) is something that is written in the cycling press and to which the athletes often have to answer questions about, for example after Di Luca won Milan Torino this year there was speculation that he might be on form to perform in Milan San Remo despite the recent acquisition in the team of the 2006 winner of Milan San Remo Pippo Pozatti, he had to respond that he would ride for Pippo (although he was sick and missed the race). Di Luca teammates played a massive role in his Giro win this year, which began on the first stage where they won the team time trial and already put time into the other favourites. The teammates are part of the cycling athletes stories of success and defeat. --Dawesaudax 11:29, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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