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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Nemesis1981 (talk | contribs) at 17:29, 7 April 2007 (→‎WTF). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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From Mrs Duggan

Baroness Symons has nothing whatsoever to do with my website. I had to learn from scratch how to do it. I have not had any help from Baroness Symons except she appointed a very high level Barrister who wrote out his opinion on the case. He stated that the German authorities are in breach of article 2 of the Human RIghts act which places an obligation on the State to preserve life and this means that even though we cannot restore Jeremiah to life the state is legally obliged to fully investigate his death. This means involvement of the next of kin, forensic evidence, full investigation with impartial witness statements ect. It may be convenient for the LaRouche conspiracist theorists to think that I take orders from Baroness Symons but that is their way of scapegoating.They should learn to stop making up fantasies and tell the truth. I am deeply wounded by their lies about me saying my son had psychological problems. He did not have. Any problem he did or did not develop he developed because of what was done to him at the conference. I accept that they like to delude themselves and others with simplistic world views. I can see how these conspiracist theories are the dangerous forerunners of all holocausts in the past - something they keep telling us will happen even though their views are actually creating that which they tell us to fear. They therefore warn against that which they then set off to creating the possiblities. Anyway one thing I think even they cannot lie about is the fact that I made my own website and Baroness Symons unfortunately has helped me not one jot. Why lie all the time and create Hate figures. Because people are duped.

Another corrections: IT WAS THE BRITISH POLICE NOT THE GERMAN POLICE WHO SAID GO NOWHERE NEAR THESE PEOPLE but I think they just thought around the Frankfurt area there are a lot of dangerous terrorist type groups. I do not know if the policeman knew of LaRouche.

I have this week complained to Parliamentarians in Westminster that Baroness Symons has to really do much more to help me because I want to have my sons death investigated. This is a normal wish of any mother who loses her son in totally unexpected circumstance. The way the LaRouche people have refused to speak to me and spread articles about Jeremiah completely defaming the dead and disregarding our feelings of having lost a very precious beloved son demonstrate to all the world the total inhumanity and heartlessness and guilt of the LaRouche movement. Why were they not sending me condolences and trying to help me uncover what happened? What were they so afraid I would find out?

LaRouche

Note to LaRouche apologist. LaRouche is a crook, a cult leader, an antisemite, a small time Hitler, and a lunatic. LaRouche can deny this, but scholars, jounalists, and courts have demonstrated that these criicisms are fair. Wiki should report his denial, but there is no need to balance these charges other than that. --Cberlet 01:59, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


I am no LaRouche "apologist." I find him to be an interesting figure, who I agree with on some things and disagree with on others. Consider me impartial, unlike the fanatics in either the pro-LaRouche or anti-LaRouche camps. I am interested in all articles on wikipedia, including LaRouche-related articles, being as fair and truthful as possible. I don't see how the following sentence is objectionable: "LaRouche denies this, and it should be noted that his conspiracy theories center on powerful non-Jewish leaders and that many important members of and allies of the LaRouche movement are Jewish." It is valid to mention that LaRouche has been criticized as anti-Semitic. We should not only report his denial, but also that much objective evidence backs up his denial. Many important Jewish members belong to his movement. He has had many important Jewish supporters (see Norbert Brainin for instance). Should these truths be hidden to readers seeking the most impartial information about LaRouche possible? If we accepted any "court decision" (could you cite the exact two verdicts that have ruled LaRouche to be an anti-Semite, by the way?) as the end of story, we couldn't make mention of evidence contradicting court decisions in many other important non-LaRouche cases (for instance, someone could argue, "Sacco and Vanzetti were convicted, and many journalists agreed. Wiki should report their denials, but there is no need to balance these charges other than that."

Do not let your hatred of LaRouche make you lose sight of the importance of maintaining a fair, objective database. I'm not sure if people using the terms Cberlet is using are the best ones to maintain an objective article on a subject they feel such passionate anger towards. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. G.Leibniz 02:57, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

One deceased Jewish supporter does not count as "many". This is not an article about LaRouche's antisemitism, which is amply covered in other articles. -Willmcw 03:18, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
G.Leibniz, you say you're interested in many other articles in Wikipedia, not just LaRouche ones, yet LaRouches ones are all you have edited. You should be aware that two arbitration committee rulings have determined that editors may not act in a way that appears to promote LaRouche propaganda, and may be banned if they are found to have done so. You may want to read Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and Wikipedia:Cite sources. These will jointly tell you that we're not allowed to insert our own opinions, unless we can back them up with reputable sources; that the majority published view should be prioritized over minority views; and that tiny-minority views like LaRouche's have no place in Wikipedia, except in the case of offering rebuttal to allegations, as here, where his denials are included in the introduction. This article perfectly reflects what has been published in the mainstream press about the case, and about LaRouche in general, and what was said in court. That's what we do here: we reflect what others say. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:23, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
Well hello all, this is my first ever posting, so please forgive any mistakes concerning the exact editing on Wikipedia. My main comment is to SlimVirgin. There is this thing that I wonder, regardless of what is written about LaRouche, and so from this point on I leave him and all others out. You seem not to want to represent truth but write popular opinion on here. Am I correct? Would you defend someone on here or in real life, if they were standing up for the truth and you knew it? What the majority thinnks.... I presume you are an american, and thefore know that the founding fathers specifically designed a system of government, whereby a parliamentary dictatorship was not possible without first destroying the US constitution. Now this point might be clear, I proceed. This was done, because the majority are not always right, and have done some very stupid things in the name of democracy and / or public opinion. Socrates was murdered by the democratic party of athens, for instance. There are many more examples of this, but I need not cite them right now. An answer would be appreciated. Also, are you a main moderator of this site? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:nemesis1981

James

This looks like an interesting challenge.

{{POV}}

Recent changes

SlimVirgin, you just reverted my edit where I corrected many inaccuracies in the "LaRouche Movement" section. If you say that they weren't inaccuracies, you should practice what you preach and back your edits up with reputable sources. --BirdsOfFire 20:06, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi BoF, in my view you introduced inaccuracies, rather than correcting them, and a pro-LaRouche POV. For example, to say that the LaRouche movement is regarded as a fringe political cult by only its critics is absurd, because it is very widely regarded as such. As this article has been stable for a long time, would you mind explaining each of the changes you want to make, and supplying a source for them on the talk page? The sources for the current contents are on the page. If you feel something is inaccurate, by all means post it here, and ask for a source, but please be very specific. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 20:25, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is not "pro-LaRouche POV." I notice in the discussion on this page that whenever anyone questions what you have written you accuse them of being "pro-LaRouche." I have seen the LaRouche movement called a cult, but more often I see expressions like "maverick Democrat," etc. I think that this article should avoid being biased in either direction. The policies that you attribute to LaRouche are distorted and inaccurate. For example, according to the quote in "Political views of Lyndon LaRouche," LaRouche said The Beatles were "a product shaped according to British Psychological Warfare Division specifications." In this article, it says "The Beatles were controlled by British intelligence." That's not the same thing. Do you have a quote to justify it? --BirdsOfFire 00:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Bof, is this your only objection, or do you have others? It would be helpful if you could list them, then I can look for sources all at once, though I hope you'll check first that the sources aren't already on the page. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:17, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Why yes, the other things I changed in my edit that you reverted. "LaRouche publications have alleged that the British royal household is involved in the international drug trade" -- they don't say that. They say that the British banks that were set up during the Opium Wars, like the Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank, have continued to launder money up to the present day. And "rogue elements within the U.S. military were instrumental in causing the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks" -- I read their pamphlet on that at the time. They said that there had to be elements within the U.S. security establishment, which is not the same as the military although it could be, that had to have been complicit in disabling normal US defenses against such an attack, which does not mean they caused it. It seems that you want to slightly exaggerate all of the LaRouche claims to make the articles main theme, the "mind control" theory, more believable. I hate to be the one to break the news but even if LaRouche was totally demonic the "mind control" theory would still be pretty far fetched. --BirdsOfFire 14:24, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
In some cases, the statements in controversy reflect earlier claims by LaRouche, that the group has rewritten to avoid criticism. The LaRouche group frequently denies statements made in the past. For example, the full quote in context on the Beatles:
"The Beatles had no genuine musical talent, but were a product shaped according to British Psychological Warfare Division (Tavistock) specifications, and promoted in Britain by agencies which are controlled by British intelligence."
"Why Your Child Became A Drug Addict" Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., Campaigner Special Report, Copyright 1978
So the aspect of being controlled by British Intelligence is in the original quote. Please be aware that much of the material published by the LaRouche group--especially about itself--is unreliable. --Cberlet 16:02, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I have no problem with using the original quote. It's different than what is in the article. You can distort a quote by oversimplifying it. Since there seems to be quite a bit of this going on in all these LaRouche articles, I think the best policy would always be to use direct quotes. --BirdsOfFire 16:25, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Quotes are good on occasion, but in an encyclopedia the information should be summarized. So it is usually better to restate the content of quotations, and provide the citation if necessary. -Willmcw 17:16, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Note to BirdsOfFire: In several instances on various LaRouche-related pages you have called for cites and facts when they already exist, in some cases on the same page, just lower in the article. It is appropriate to demand cites. It is not appropriate to demand cites when they already exist.--Cberlet 18:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, I am concerned that the opinions that are attributed to LaRouche be accurate -- that is in the best interests of Wikipedia. I have seen a bit of spin doctoring going on. If you have a direct quote, there can be no suspicion of monkey business. --BirdsOfFire 20:05, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Chip, thank you for finding those citations. BirdsofFire, we can't quote every single time we want to attribute an opinion to LaRouche. Perhaps you could explain what you see as the substantive difference between (1) "The Beatles ... were a product shaped according to British Psychological Warfare Division (Tavistock) specifications, and promoted in Britain by agencies which are controlled by British intelligence" and (2) "The Beatles were controlled by British intelligence." SlimVirgin (talk) 20:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The citation for "Queen pushing drugs" was not from LaRouche, just some guy repeating a bogus story. That is irresponsible. The other citations are good citations, but the problem is, they don't correspond to what the article says. In fact, they correspond to what I said was the more accurate way to summarize what LaRouche said. I will change the summaries to match the quotes. I hope you will not object -- the summary should honestly reflect what is in the cited source. --BirdsOfFire 20:27, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I object, and disagree with your claims. Please discuss here.--Cberlet 20:47, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Information in Wikipedia is supposed to be veriable. It looks like you have footnoted the "Queen of England" claim to various essays you have written, so that no one can check your sources without purchasing a pamplet or something. You have also replaced the misleading summaries of the other claims, summaries that do not at all match the sources you cite. I hope that the reader will take the trouble to read the cites, in order to discover that your summaries are misleading, but that is not the way Wikipedia is supposed to work. What is your objection to the more accurate summaries I put in? You didn't post it here, you just reverted.
I have looked at the "LaRouche says the Queen pushes drugs" claim in the past, and it appears to be an urban legend. LaRouche denies having said it: "It is relevant to point to one relevant example of mass-media brainwashing. Most readers have heard the news-media babbling: "He [LaRouche] says, 'The Queen pushes drugs.' " In fact, I did not say that; that quote was a fraud, manufactured, in 1982, by the Chicago division of NBC-TV News. Later, beginning an NBC-TV broadcast of March 1984, that fraudulent quote was repeated, over and over again, by all of the mass media, through 1988, until millions of American TV viewers became so thoroughly brainwashed, that many of them said, even to my face, that they, personally, heard me say exactly those words, on TV: it simply never happened.[[1]]" Now since you, Chip Berlet, have an entire website that seems to be devoted to the "LaRouche is Satan" theme, and you have archives of LaRouche quotes going back to the 70s, it seems to me that you ought to have just one little quote somewhere, from LaRouche himself, where he says the queen pushes drugs.
Your reluctance to back up your claims about LaRouche with quotes from him or his movement, rather than quotes from yourself or your collaborators, makes me suspicious of all the claims in this article, and it is probably safe to assume that anyone who has read even a few articles by the LaRouche organization is also going to be like, "Yeah, right." This is not in the best interests of Wikipedia. So, the neutrality and accuracy dispute tag should remain in place. --BirdsOfFire 14:27, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
This is apparently going to come as a shock, but serious research and scholarship does not begin and end on the Internet. LaRouche regularly denies saying things or writing things for which there is a public record. The NBC-TV broadcast--over which he sued and lost--discussed the LaRouchite theory claiming the continued control of the global drug trade by the British Royal Family (including the Queen). This was the original thesis of the LaRouchite book, Dope, Inc. --Cberlet 14:42, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I have read Dope, Inc. which is precisedly why I was suspicious of the whole "Queen pushes drugs" routine, because that is not what the book says. Your claim that it is the "original thesis" of the book suggests to me that either you haven't read it, or that you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes, and over the rest of the Wikipedia readers as well. Is this what you call "serious research and scholarship"? --BirdsOfFire 14:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
What edition are you reading? It makes a difference.--Cberlet 15:20, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that a simple quote from any edition that says the Queen pushes drugs would end the debate. From what I have seen, Cberlet is often evasive when he is asked to provide verifiable sources for his claims. I have been reading up on Chip Berlet and Political Research Associate, and may political activists do not trust them. For example, Online Journal Associate Editor Larry Chin charged that "Berlet is a gatekeeper who has made a career out of slandering and attacking whistleblowers, researchers and critics of the US government, of every political affiliation."[2]

Otherwise, I don't get it. BirdsOfFire says that this version is inaccurate:

  • LaRouche publications have alleged that the British royal household is involved in the international drug trade; that rogue elements within the U.S. military were instrumental in causing the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks; that The Beatles were controlled by British intelligence;

...and that this version would be acceptable:

  • LaRouche publications have alleged that the financial institutions that arose in the heyday of the British Empire are involved in the international drug trade; that rogue elements within the U.S. security establishment were involved in causing the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks; that The Beatles were "shaped" by British intelligence;

Why are SlimVirgin and Cberlet so adamant about keeping the disputed version? --NathanDW 17:38, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Why is info on 'LaRouche movement' even in this article? It should be referenced in its own article. The first three or four paragraphs are peripheral, and a link to the LaRouche Movement page itself would suffice. There is no need to include the whole thing inside this article. --B.ellis 14:26, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm surprised that SlimVirgin could forget so quickly that the "neutrality and facts disputed" was put there by BirdsOfFire. I too am interested to hear how Cberlet and SlimVirgin will respond to BirdsOfFire's objections. I think that B.ellis also has a point. --NathanDW 01:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What is in there is sourced. BoF seems to want us to remove sourced material. Any suggestion for removing a POV tag must be actionable within our policies. The policies don't say that sourced and relevant material can be removed, so it looks like a misuse of the tag. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:00, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please read the recent posts on this page. What BirdsOfFire said -- and I agree -- is that the claims in the article do not match what the sources say. It appears that the editors are twisting the source material, which is certainly a violation of neutrality and factual accuracy. Also, the "Queen pushes drugs" source is not satisfactory -- it is a commentator making a claim with no evidence. If an opinion is being attributed to LaRouche, it should be verifiable according to Wikipedia policy. --NathanDW 01:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with B.ellis. There is too much on the LaRouche Movement here, while it is relevant to the article there is no point including it in detail here when it should be detailed on other pages in wiki like Political views of Lyndon LaRouche. The first 4 paragraphs should be condensed to a smaller explanation with appropiate links. Discordance 01:36, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

SlimVirgin, I have been waiting patiently for 18 days for you to respond to my last post, and then today you unilaterally removed the disputed tag. You should participate in the discussion before making changes. However, I believe that B.ellis and Discordance are right, and the consensus is to simply link the article to "Political Views," where the representation of LaRouche has fewer misrepresentations. --NathanDW 01:37, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You are so totally wrong about this. There are a handful of people who are fanatic LaRouche supporters. The rest of the world thinks of him as a lunatic. A few call him a fascist. He is a convicted crook. Sanitizing reality is not acceptable.--Cberlet 02:16, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While I agree that LaRouche is all of those things I do not agree removing those paragraphs is sanitising this page, this page is full of repeated information on the LaRouche movement I do think the reader needs to read this information to better understand this article but the information does not belong here it belongs in other articles. Discordance 09:33, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think moving that LaRouche movement infobox up into the section on the LaRouche movement and writing a paragraph explaining the relevance and importance of reading those pages is a far more wikipedic solution. Discordance 13:25, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This page makes little sense without an adequate summary of who LaRouche is and what his movement is about. A reasonable edit is one thing. But LaRouche proponents spend much time on Wikipedia trying to sanitze every article that mentions LaRouche, and plop LaRouche text into many other articles. We can all try to summarize in an accurate and NPOV way. I did not think that was done in recent edits.--Cberlet 15:09, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes sorry to clarify my view the paragraphs should not have been removed and left with empty space, they should have been replaced with a more compact summary. Discordance 15:41, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The page was fine as it was. There are people interested in this who won't necessarily want to have to wade through the LaRouche articles to find out more about LaRouche. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:38, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me, but it was not fine as it was. The objections of BirdsOfFire were that your assertions about LaRouche's ideas do not match the sources that Cberlet put in, supposedly as documentation. The claims in the article should match what is in the cited sources, and they do not. And beyond that, you and Cberlet have stonewalled and refused to address this in the discussion. Until you address it, the dispute announcement should remain. --NathanDW 06:13, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am unsure if this article deserves a disputed tag but not compacting the summary leaves it open to criticism like this even if it does portray wikipedia's view of LaRouche accurately it shouldn't give so many details because its forking the information and bringing itself into question whether just or not. The reader should have to go to other articles to get additional imformation, there should be some here but I think we should be pointing readers to sections in other articles that convey the same information. Discordance 14:40, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When we try to summarize the majority view of LaRouche, we are told that there is no documentation for the charges. When we add documentation, we are told that there is too much detail or that the documentation is insufficient. What has not been documented? That LaRouche is a lunatic? That he is a crook? That he is an antisemite? That some consider him a fascist? That the group has been called a political cult? That LaRouche is a raging homophobe? What is not adequately sourced?--Cberlet 05:37, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You say in the article that LaRouche believes "that rogue elements within the U.S. military were instrumental in causing the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks." I read all three of the links that you put in as documentation, and none of them says anything even close to that. You also say that LaRouche says in "Dope, Inc." that the Queen of England is involved in the drug trade, but the links are not to "Dope, Inc." -- they are to articles by you and Dennis King. You were asked to provide a quote, any quote, from LaRouche, saying that the Queen of England is involved in the drug trade, and you have not done so. And as BirdsOfFire pointed out a month ago, you have taken a quote where LaRouche says that the Beatles were promoted by agencies that are controlled by British intelligence, and twisted it to claim that he said "the Beatles were controlled by British intelligence." When BirdsOfFire tried to correct these things to make them more accurate, you reverted his edit. It looks to me like you are using propaganda techniques. --NathanDW 16:20, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You appear to be unable to grasp the concept of a summary. A summary looks at a block of text and reduces it to its essence. LaRouche's essays and LaRouchite material is often a mass of convoluted crackpot conspiratorial conclusions. If it takes many paragraphs for the LaRouchites to claim that A controls B which controls C which controls D; it is legitimate to simply state that LaRouche believes A controls D.--Cberlet 16:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I just rechecked the cites for the "rogue agents" sentence. The sentence is entirely fair and NPOV given the cited text. I invite others to read the underlying cites and see for themselves.--Cberlet 16:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For the september 11th attack and the beatles i think we should be pointing the reader here: Political_views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche#Theories_of_conspiracies. with a sentence like: Lyndon LaRouche believes in a number of conspiracy theories regarded as baseless theories by all but LaRouchites and other conspiracy theorists, see the following section for details on those beliefs. My sentence is a little POV and needs reworking but that section has that information in. Discordance 18:36, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I think it is obvious that CBerlet is extremely POV and sees this issue as a completely black-and-white, cut-and-dry case of CBerlet being right and everyone else being wrong. Chip also resorts on several occasions to a slew of name-calling such as "fascist, homophobe, lunatic, anti-semite" etc ... I'm not sure if Wikipedia has a policy about this, but I also think that Chip Berlet contributing information about LaRouche is a conflict of interest since Chip has been a primary in the anti-LaRouche crowd --which is also a minority, I find, in that most people don't feel one way or another about LaRouche, and the people who are vehemently angry about him are probably less than those that actually support him, though I don't have any factual data to back this up, only personal experience -- which is skewed towards a younger demographic as well, as I'm in my early '20s and most of the people I talk to about LaRouche are of a similar age. But, in my personal experience, the anti-LaRouche people are in an even smaller minority than the pro-LaRouche camp. But, back to the topic of a conflict of interest: The reason I feel it's a conflict of interest is that Chip Berlet has been publically involved in a conflict with LaRouche for many years. Again, perhaps Wikipedia care about conflicts of interest. But, Chip Berlet editing pages about Lyndon LaRouche is basically equivalent to members of CSISOP editing pages on crop circles -- they have already made up their mind to have a 100% POV black-and-white mentality, and are absolutely at odds with any neutral, realistic representation of a situation. When an editor has been a leading proponent of 1 side of a debate which has continued for 10+ years (I'm not sure exactly when Berlet began to lead the anti-LaRouche crusade but it was at least 10 years ago), it is obvious that said editor will only offer a 1-sided, POV contribution to the article, and that because of the editor's vested interest (promoting themselves through promoting this 1-sided argument), they would always have an incentive (even a financial one) in maintaining their viewpoint at the cost of neutrality.

No, Wikipedia does not have a "conflict of interest" policy. Instead of policies that address the personalities or biases of editors, our policies address the edits themselves. In particular, we rely on WP:Neutral point of view, WP:No original research, and WP:Verifiability in order to keep our articles free from bias. So please do focus on the contributions, not the contributor. Thanks, -Will Beback 22:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Grammar

From History -- "5 January 2006 Sean Black ("struck by cars" is terribly akward)"

Well, no, apparently it isn't.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22struck+by+cars%22 = about 10,500 hits for "struck by cars".

We need to say in the intro here what he actually died of (being struck by cars), since "running down the middle of a busy road" is not generally in and of itself fatal. "He was killed" is not acceptable, since it strongly implies that he was deliberately killed, which is POV.

I'm fixing this for the time being. If you have a problem, please justify here in the Discussion. -- 200.141.105.210 04:46, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Current version of this -- "died after being hit by several cars while running down the middle of a busy road" -- is fine by me. -- 200.141.105.210 05:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The back and forth over this sentence is silly. He "was killed" doesn't imply it was deliberate, and was killed while or after "running down the middle of a busy road" makes it very obvious that he was hit by a car. Not every single obvious point needs to be spelled out when writing a story. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:36, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV dispute

Cberlet has still not provided the documentation for the "Queen in dope trade" claim. He has not explained how altering the LaRouche quote from "The Beatles were promoted in Britain by agencies which are controlled by British intelligence" to "The Beatles were controlled by British intelligence" is a summary and not a distortion. And on the "US military did 9/11," he is simply stonewalling, saying that this is in the articles he links to, when those articles are about entirely different topics. --NathanDW 01:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is simply not true. I have cited sources and fairly summarized that material.--Cberlet 04:25, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If we summarised like I suggested this dispute wouldnt be spilling out onto other pages it could be kept on the main LaRouche pages, I really do not like the repeated information it is highly similar, that is unacceptable, WP is not paper there is no need for this forking. If NathanDW has issue with what is said on Political_views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche#Theories_of_conspiracies he should be discussing it on that article, in fact that article says about the beatles "a product shaped according to British Psychological Warfare Division specifications" he has a point that these are horribly forked. Discordance 13:20, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This page is not "horribly forked." That is pure hyperbole. There are a handful of paragraphs that explain why the ideas and fear of conspiracies within the LaRouche movement are connected to the incident involving the death of Duggan. LaRouche supporters are a constant source of disruption on Wikipedia. Trying to collaboratively edit with them is like trying to pick blueberries with a bear.--Cberlet 14:59, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The sentences in the 3rd and 4th paragraphs convey as much information as the other page does in a marginally different manner that is a fork, the page should not do that, dont start talking about hyperbole. I think the 4 paragraphs can be compacted in a npov way but im going to go work on some other articles instead its not really that big a deal i was only trying to find something you and nathan would be happy with. Unwatching the talk. Discordance 21:26, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am skeptical of LaRouche, which is why I looked him up on Wikipedia, but after seeing what is on Wikipedia, I am more skeptical of LaRouche's critics. It looks like you are now calling me a LaRouche supporter, which seems to be what you do whenever you are in a dispute.

You say that these paragraphs "explain why the ideas and fear of conspiracies within the LaRouche movement are connected to the incident involving the death of Duggan." This doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. This is "original research," this is you trying to make a case for your theory, and explains why you need to "tweak" the quotes from LaRouche, to make them more wacky to build your case. --NathanDW 16:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, you have misunderstood and mis-stated what I said and what I meant. It is not original research when it is cited to reputable published source material.--Cberlet 18:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]


LaRouche2

I would like to point out that it is highly suspicious that after every statement of fact there is a following response by people associated with LaRouche and his groups. They should not be allowed any credebility since they are the ones whose credibility is being questioned. I AM NOT SAYING that we need to eliminate these responses, but this information should not be presented as fact in light of the situation. I reccommend consolidating all statements made by LaRouche's groups into a section titles "response from larouche movement" or something similar. --sorbix 01:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

They have no credibility here, a policy enforced by wikipedia's enforcing policy body the arbcom and enacted and vigiled by admins such as SlimVirgin, SqueakBox 02:09, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LaRouche is right. And since when does the average anti-semite hitler cult leader get his own smear campaign? Ahem. --Kanliot 16:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jonathan Tennenbaum

Jonathan Tennenbaum blaming the Jews? Jonathan Tennenbaum is Jewish. Does this mean he is an anti-semitic Jew? Or could this be a bullshit slander against him? Is there proof that at this conference LaRouche blamed the Jews? or is this just the same old slander? Listen to LaRouche yourselves and decide. All webcasts, most seminars, all cadre school discussions are recorded on MP3. --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nemesis1981

Can that be true? Can it also be true that Jeffrey Steinberg is also Jewish, as many other leading names in the LaRouche organisations? My god, then the fact that the leading members of the LaRouche organisation are Jewish could only mean one thing. What that is I do not know. I will ask Wikipedia. --89.62.102.62 16:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dreyfus and the "holocaust"

  • LaRouche and his movement consistently condemn anti-Semitism in their published writings and statements.[3]

The linked article does not condemn anti-Semitism. Here is all it says directly about Jewish issues:

  • To that same end, the President of France, the scientist-grandson of Lazare Carnot, was assassinated on June 24, 1894, and, in a related development, to the same purpose, the fraudulent charges and conviction, reeking of anti-Semitism, of France's Captain Alfred Dreyfus, were perpetrated on December 22, 1894.
  • Kissinger's 1975 policy, in NSSM-200, toward Africa, like his close association with dictator Pinochet and the Nazi international spin-offs' role in "Operation Condor," must be matched ironically with his references to himself as a Jewish victim of Hitler's "holocaust." He is a true follower of the model of Thrasymachus adopted by Professor Leo Strauss and his "neo-conservative" followers.

Pointing out that the Dreyfus Affair reeked of anti-Semitism isn't a codemnation. Referring to the "'holocaust'" in "scare quotes" is consistent with other comments about the validity of the Holocaust. So this reference actually seems to contradict the assertion that "LaRouche and his movement consistently condemn anti-Semitism". -Will Beback · † · 06:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Operation Condor" and "Neo-conservative" are also in "scare quotes." Do you take this to mean that LaRouche doubts the existence of Operation Condor and Neo-conservatives? --Tsunami Butler 06:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Jewish

It is really poor to identify him as a Jew when his last name clearly shows he is half-jewish at most. Tommypowell 14:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How does his name show any such thing?--Runcorn 17:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, maybe that is a poor choice of words. It is well known that his father is non-Jewish.Tommypowell 12:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are plenty of sources that Jeremiah Duggan was Jewish. What his father might be is irrelevant. Please see WP:V and WP:NOR.--Runcorn 22:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't add the statement about condemning antiSemitism without an accurate source. Grace Note 06:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The fact is that LaRouche publications never mention anti-Semitism without putting it in a pejorative context. I will try to find numerous sources when I have time, sometime in the next few days, but to allow the implication to stand that LaRouche and his associates endorse or even tolerate anti-Semitism is a violation of WP:BLP. --NathanDW 02:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can we point out exactly where in this text [4] "LaRouche and his movement" condemn anti-Semitism? I asked this same question in December and this is the same source back again, with no reply to my question. If this is the best we can do then there's no way we can say make this assertion. -Will Beback · † · 03:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here, I can google as well as the next person. LaRouche writes, "Religious and racial hatred, such as anti-Semitism, or hatred against Islam, or, hatred of Christians, is, on record of known history, the most evil expression of criminality to be seen on the planet today." [5] That should be sufficient. --Tsunami Butler 15:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. --NathanDW 21:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In any case, none of this has anything to do with Duggan, nor is it a comment on what Duggan's mother said. Wikipedia articles do not carry rebuttals of the views they report people as having stated. If the statement is of the kind "X said Y considered the world to be Z", then including a rebuttal of Y's considering the world to be Z does not go to balancing or discussing what X said, and is not to be included. (It is excluded by the policy on original research, which does not permit the creation of theses or arguments.) If LaRouche had commented on what Duggan's mother had said, this would possibly have been valid for inclusion. Please don't reinsert this material unless you can show how it is connected to X, not to Y's beliefs about Z. Grace Note 05:08, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, see SlimVirgin's talkpage for more on this subject. Grace Note 05:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The LaRouche movement's statements about antisemitism are irrelevant here unless discussed in terms of the Jeremiah Duggan case. If they're not discussed within that context, then adding them to this article is an example of original research; please see this section of the NOR policy. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I am following your logic here. But let me ask you this: in this section we find the usual litany of accusations of anti-Semitism by Chip Berlet. If the rebuttal quote were placed in that section, would it be OR? Or on the other hand, are the accusations by Chip Berlet OR, because they do not refer specifically to the Duggan case? --Tsunami Butler 06:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's a section giving some background on the LaRouche movement, and it does include "Its members insist these allegations are misrepresentations ..." but if you feel that's not enough, you could add your quote about antisemitism there. What you can't do is add it to rebut what Mrs. Duggan said, which is how it was being used (writing from memory). SlimVirgin (talk) 07:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. --Tsunami Butler 15:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

EIR is not a legitimate journalistic source

Five paragraphs of this article were devoted to a supposedly journalistic account of Jeremiah Duggan's state of mind, alleged mental illness, the kindness of the LaRouchians to his mother, etc. The source of this information, EIR, LaRouche's weekly newsmagazine, is not recognized by Wikipedia as a legitimate source for anything except showing the state of mind and ideas of the LaRouchians. It is not a legitimate news publication. Jeffrey Steinberg, LaRouche's longtime security chief, is not a legitimate journalist. If the LaRouchians wish to insert their trash talk about Jeremiah they must properly source it. I am deleting all information sourced to Steinberg's EIR article.--Dking 18:03, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Grow up Dennis. Your government recognises EIR as a legimate source, so much so that they have a regular seat at the Whitehouse press briefings. Now, people only need to read Travesty to know who you are. I say nothing except that I think it is you that is not the legitimate source, not EIR. I would ask you to prove your claims that Jeff Steinberg's article is not a proper source. --89.62.102.62 16:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! This brings back memories! In 1980 I was in New Hampshire, and there was a debate on the radio between Jeffrey Steinberg and Dennis King. I thought that this would be interesting, but sadly, it wasn't. Mr. Steinberg calmly made his points, and then Mr. King would just shriek like a banshee, so it never really went anywhere. --Don't lose that number 06:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is this interview still available? I would like to compare what the 2 had to say. I can download Mr Steinberg's work any time, so far as I know. I must check out Mr King's contribution to american politics. Mr King, maybe you could point me to some insightful material. What is this "Travesty"?

Thanks. --Ibykus prometheus 13:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Travesty was a book published in 1993 by the LaRouche movement. It is basically transcriptions of tape recorded conversations made by an FBI undercover operative named Doug Poppa, who infiltrated a gang of kidnappers associated with the Cult Awareness Network while "wearing a wire." He made clandestine recordings of meetings where plans were made to kidnap Louis Dupont Smith, a LaRouche activist from a prominent family. --Tsunami Butler 21:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

LaRouche movement digression

I can't see any justification for this section belonging in the article as it stands, which is a biography of Jeremiah Duggan. This information already exists in the various LaRouche articles and does not need to be repeated here. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Catchpole 22:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is also the case that the majority of external links are to attack articles about LaRouche. This is supposedly a biographical article about Jeremiah Duggan, so why all the links to the anti-LaRouche sites? --63.3.66.18 07:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BLP issues

WP:ATT and WP:BLP specifically prohibit the use of self-published third-party sources in support of biographical material about living persons. I have removed hearsay quotes attributed to Helga-Zepp LaRouche and Dr. Jonathan Tennenbaum that were sourced to the "Justice for Jeremiah website." There are probably further sourcing problems with this article. --Tsunami Butler 15:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

These have been published by newspapers and were discussed in court, so by all means re-source them instead of removing them. Otherwise people might suspect you were engaged in a WP:POINT. Also, one of the sources you removed was a law firm; the website was simply hosting the press release, which makes the website a convenience link, not a source. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material." -- WP:BLP. The press release may be used if it appeared in a mainstream secondary source. If did not, there's probably a good reason why it didn't, since it lookes defamatory to me. I won't revert for a few days, to give you the opportunity to find suitable sources (even though, under BLP, I should probably revert immediately.) --Tsunami Butler 22:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"The press release may be used if it appeared in a mainstream secondary source." Which policy do you take this from? SlimVirgin (talk) 23:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I misspoke. I meant a mainstream third-party source. I'm still getting used to the lingo.--Tsunami Butler 01:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just in case my point isn't clear, anyone can issue a press release. I can issue a press release. But it shouldn't go into Wikipedia unless it has been published in a mainstream newspaper or comparable source. --Tsunami Butler 01:31, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad you removed the one improperly sourced quote. Please find a proper source for the other one, or remove it also. WP:ATT and WP:BLP specifically prohibit the use of self-published third-party sources in support of biographical material about living persons. --Tsunami Butler 01:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's been two weeks and no source is forthcoming, so I removed the second quote under BLP. --Tsunami Butler 13:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Citation

The link http://www.justiceforjeremiah.com/inquest.html seems not to work. Is the material available elsewhere? Tom Harrison Talk 02:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The website was revised. I think I found the proper cite.--Cberlet 03:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Evening Standard, "Police concluded he had thrown himself into the traffic but they took no witness statements." See Hall, Allan (2006-12-06). "Germany to reopen case of cult death". The Evening Standard (London). Associated Newspapers Ltd. p. 21. {{cite news}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) Since that seems to contradict the material above, we will need a citation to a reliable published source to support the statements about eyewitnesses. Tom Harrison Talk 03:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The transcript of the British inquest contains the story about Duggan being struck by two cars. Since there are clearly editors here who are pushing the POV that somehow Duggan's death was caused by the LaRouche movement (Cberlet as Chip Berlet was responsible for a lot of stuff on the Justice for Jeremiah website, and that would appear to be a problem under WP:COI,) I would like to ask that there be no attempt to brush the first scenario under the rug because it now conflicts with the new scenario. --Tsunami Butler 13:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Fact check, please. I am responsible for very little of the Justice for Jeremiah website. Reporting the results of a forensic analysis by two different experts is hardly POV pushing. The new language makes it clear there is a dispute. I added the cite to the inquest page that mentioned the original conclusion of the German aythorities. So who is POV pushing here?--Cberlet 13:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You are. Now that one conspiracy theory has been supplanted by another, you would like to forget the first one and expunge it from the article. But both are sourced and should be covered, despite the fact that they contradict each other. --Tsunami Butler 21:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Does it say that the court heard from the witnesses? Or was it only the German police who interviewed the witnesses? SlimVirgin (talk) 13:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The transcript says it didn't hear eyewitness testimony, and that part of the problem is that the German police failed to take proper statements. Tsnami Butler, can you say why you added that thing about eyewitnesses? SlimVirgin (talk) 13:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It was a mistake which I have now corrected. --Tsunami Butler 21:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cramer vs. Kramer

Someone has changed the spelling of this to Kramer, a spelling some of the newspapers use, but the LaRouche movement seems to use Cramer, [6] and they're more likely to know, I would guess. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:12, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I changed it after I got hits for Kramer but not Cramer, but you may be right. We should probably use the most authoritative, and maybe note the different spelling in the citation. Tom Harrison Talk 17:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, sounds good. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If it is Hartmut Cramer you are referring to, it is Cramer with a C, not a K. Normally with German, the K would be right. In this case it is different. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.163.66.171 (talk) 02:42, 31 March 2007 (UTC).-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned[reply]

WTF

I have just checked the article. What is going on? JD was beaten to death? Really? Did the German coroner say this? Was this a possibility? Could the German coroner have somehow missed this or been mistaken? Was JD not seen running in down the Berliner Strasse just before he died? Excuse my writing the WTF as the title of my bit, we all know what it means, but having followed this stuff over the last few years, my thoughts are really summarized by the question, WTF? Thank you to anyone who might enlighten me simply and shortly. --63.3.66.18 23:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article explains, or see here. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The press can't keep running the same story year after year, so they must invent newer and more fantastic versions of it to keep the thing going. --NathanDW 15:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This article is so retarded. I must ask people to answer the questions of other people seriously doubting the current story. Having read this, I must also ask if it is possible that the driver who hit JD was lying, therefore commiting a crime, conspiracy to commit murder (or something similar)? Are the German forensic pathologists unable to tell the difference between the injuries attained by being hit by a moving motor vehicle and being beaten to death with an instrument, blunt or otherwise? And I assume them not to be so blatantly incompetent that they could come up with such a conclusion as suicide, especially in such a high profile case (JD being Jewish and the LaRouche organisation being accused of being an anti-semitic cult), were not all evidence pointing to a suicide. So, if we rule out that the German coroner was incompetent, that the German authorities were incompetent, that leaves us with 2 possibilities, either the British "news"papers are lying, or Germany's police force is infested with people who hate Jews. Is there another possibility? What do people think? Maybe I too am a fool for not simply believing the newspapers. SlimVirgin, I ask you, since you have done much editing on this subject.

--Nemesis1981 17:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Berliner Zeitung

SlimVirgin, in your comments here, you say that "the WorldNetDaily website, is perhaps okay for non-contentious material, but not for BLP criticism." Is it your view that the Berliner Zeitung is a more suitable source for BLP criticism? I note that in the past 24 hours you have filled this article with inflammatory cites from it. It appears to be held in low esteem since it was taken over by David Montgomery. Andrew Marr, former editor of the Independent, says of the new Berliner Zeitung that "Anyone who was working at The Independent in the mid to late Nineties will find all this wearisomely familiar. David's obsession at that time was removing as much traditional reporting as possible from the paper and turning it into a tabloid-style scandal sheet for yuppies."[7] --Tsunami Butler 07:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When people start saying that Berliner Zeitung is an unreliable and biased source then it will be in the same league as WorldNetDaily. But just because someone criticizes the actions of the current editor at another paper ten years ago doesn't mean that the BZ is not a reliable source. LexisNexis says the paper reports in a "serious and competent fashion".[8] -Will Beback · † · 10:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
However, the fact that the paper is British-controlled is relevant to the article, since there is all this stuff about LaRouche being anti-British, and LaRouche saying that the British establishment is behind the various Duggan stories. (SlimVirgin asked in her edit summary, "what diff does that make? are you going to add who owns all the other media we use as sources?") --Don't lose that number 15:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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