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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 172.87.18.207 (talk) at 10:12, 4 July 2024 (→Rabbit: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Merge Leporidae into this article

Consensus unlikely to emerge. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:16, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

These articles so heavily overlap in scope that its redundant to have both of them. We don't have separate articles for "frog" and the order Anura, just because some anurans are called toads rather than frogs in English (discussed in Frog#Etymology_and_taxonomy), we just have a single article entitled Frog, covering the entirety of Anura, including those called toads. I think the same should apply here. "Rabbit" is like "frog" in that it covers the vast majority of leporids, aside from a few called hares. Having two articles about essentially the same topic results in a lot of unneeded redundacy, when it could be adequately covered in one article. I think "rabbit" is the best title for the combined article. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:31, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I also don't like redundancy. But to put everything from Leporidae into rabbit would be confusing since hares are not rabbits. It's not that they happen to have a different common name, but they are in a different genus. It would be best for the Leporidae to discuss things that are the same for rabbits & hares. Then in the separate rabbit/hare articles, it would discuss things that were different. Sunandshade (talk) 05:37, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Huh. I hadn't quite clicked how diverse hares were. They make up about half of the diversity of Leporidae species wise. Still though, hares are deeply nested within Leporidae, with some rabbits more closely related to hares than to other rabbits. All discussion regarding the behaviour, ecology, evolution of rabbits (aka non hare leporids) and Leporidae is basically the same. I think this does make the case that Leporidae may be the better title of the combined article. Hemiauchenia (talk) 06:04, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"with some rabbits more closely related to hares than to other rabbits" I assume you got that from the gene analysis. But when you look at the life style of rabbits/hares, all rabbits have altricial young & all hares have precocial young. So the rabbit/hare difference is quite distinctive. From a biology perspective, it makes sense to call the article Leporidae. However, what type of people read Wikipedia? It might be people that don't understand orders & families & genera. They would probably want all the info under rabbit. So who do you write to? I don't know how these decisions are made. Sunandshade (talk) 06:18, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My thinking on the introductory sentence to the combined article would be something like "Leporidae is a family of small mammals. Most genera of the family are called rabbits, while members of the genus Lepus are known as hares." I think that something like that would succinctly clear up any questions on the part of the reader Hemiauchenia (talk) 06:27, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And if they searched for "rabbit" is would go there? Would there still be a separate "hare" article? Or would you add the hare article also? Seems it would get bulky. Sunandshade (talk) 08:14, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
According to the European rabbit article, etc., vernacularly Pronolagus are hares, and Caprilagus either a hare or a rabbit. In British usage rabbit means the European rabbit. I'd merge in the other direction. Lavateraguy (talk) 08:46, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Could you explain this a bit more? I'm not quite understanding. A jackrabbit is a hare & should be described under the "hare" article. Is that what you are saying? Doesn't matter what the common name is in terms of where to discuss that animal. It would only matter in helping people find the article. If jackrabbit redirects to hare, that would work. What do you mean by "merge in the other direction"? Sunandshade (talk) 18:22, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I meant that I'd merge this article into Leporidae rather than Leporidae into here (and turn this into a redirect to European rabbit?). Lavateraguy (talk) 19:00, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The more I think about this, I think a merge is not the best way to go. The original issue was redundancy, which can be resolved with editing the 2 articles. Leporidae would talk about common features of rabbits & hares. The Rabbit & Hare articles would talk about what's unique to each of those animals. The European rabbit is only 1 type of rabbit & would continue to have it's own article. Sunandshade (talk) 19:10, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would object to pointing rabbit to any one particular species. European rabbits (the wild species, not their domesticated descendants) are found on only one continent, but there are native species called "rabbit" on every continent save Australia (which does have a problem with feral domestic rabbits) and Antarctica. Far too Eurocentric (and ENGVAR hijacking) to make the hare term a redirect to the European rabbit. oknazevad (talk) 15:52, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Rabbit article discusses all rabbit species. Sunandshade (talk) 16:53, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How would you determine which species count as "rabbit species" as opposed to "hare species"? There are many species which have multiple common names, some of them including "hare" and others "rabbit". For example:
And this is just from a quick skim through their wikipedia pages - I'm sure there are other ambiguous common names in use elsewhere. This is trouble with trying to define a taxonomic distinction using only common names, it will never be clear-cut or reliable. Averixus (talk) 07:35, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Don't use common names for separation. In the case of the Rabbit article, as described in the "Differences from hares" section, rabbit is all genera in Leporidae except Lepus (hares). Or, continuing in that section, rabbits have altricial young, hares have precocial young. Sunandshade (talk) 08:36, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the merge. I'm not certain which title should be kept, but I'd lean towards Leporidae.
Columbidae is an example of a similar situation, which I think is handled well. Birds of the family are commonly called pigeons or doves. In everyday usage, "dove" is typically used for smaller species and "pigeon" for larger ones, but there is no clear taxonomic distinction between them. Both pigeon and dove redirect to the Columbidae article, and there's a paragraph in the lead explaining how the two terms are used.
There's also quite a lot of content in this article that really belongs in either European rabbit or Domestic rabbit, both often just called "rabbit". Making it clear that this general article refers to a whole family (by using the title Leporidae instead of Rabbit) might discourage additions like that in future. Averixus (talk) 15:11, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the Rabbit article should contain info that is true for all rabbits. A discussion about how to care for a pet rabbit should be under Domestic Rabbit. The Leporidae article is a good place to discuss the family & links to other articles. If there are items there that are only about rabbits, they should be moved to the Rabbit article. In the Rabbit article, remove items that are discussed in the Leporidae article. Maybe a cleanup is needed rather than a merge. Sunandshade (talk) 18:29, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What would the scope of the "rabbit" article be then? There's 3:1 agreement so far the current scope of the "rabbit" article is redundant to Leporidae. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:13, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Leporidae: general morphology, predation, herbivore, digestion, teeth, range of sizes/speed, digestion, evolution, etc.
Rabbit: anything different from hares, e.g., size/speed, anything about reproduction (naked young, gestation period, nursing time, litter size), some dig burrows, where it lives
Domestic rabbit: use as livestock/domestication, pet, vaccinations, breeds
Hares: same as rabbit but with different data Sunandshade (talk) 08:14, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is agreement that the articles have redundant info, but that does not mean they are 100% redundant. Merge the redundant info & keep the rest in separate articles. Sunandshade (talk) 19:15, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, per above; not all leporids are rabbits, some are hares. Happy editing, SilverTiger12 (talk) 23:34, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@SilverTiger12 What would you think about the reverse proposal which is gaining traction, that is, merging rabbit into Leporidae. If you wish to keep the "rabbit" article, what scope do you think it should have? Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:36, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like SilverTiger12 is agreeing with my suggestion to keep all articles (i.e., no merge) but remove redundancies. See my comment above as to what would be in each article. Sunandshade (talk) 08:57, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You've made your position very clear, you do not need to restate your position over and over. Hemiauchenia (talk) 09:08, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about that. I'm new here & learning how it all works. Thanks for letting me know. I thought you had asked a question that was already answered so thought you had possibly missed the info. Didn't mean to step on any toes. I hope you get the info you were looking for. Sunandshade (talk) 09:13, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge but do think the articles can use an audit to trim redundancies. The Leporidae article should focus on the taxonomy, because that's what it's really about, the taxonomic classification. The rabbit article should be the article with the material of interest to the general reader, because the hare term "rabbit" is far more likely to be searched for by the reader seeking to learn the basics as it's the common term. oknazevad (talk) 15:56, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    When you say material of interest to the general reader, do you mean material concerning:
    • The European or domestic rabbit only?
    • All Leporidae species whose usual English common names include "rabbit"?
    • Some specific taxonomic subset of Leporidae species?
    • All Leporidae species?
    Averixus (talk) 18:11, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, this is the currently the main issue with the article. When I look at "rabbit" on google search, basically all of the results on the first page are covering the genus Oryctolagus, exclusively, that is, the European rabbit and the domestic rabbit, not non-hare leporids generally. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:27, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit Request

Request to change:

"=== Domestication ===

Main article: Domestic rabbit

Rabbits have long been domesticated"

to

"=== Commercial Use and Livestock ===

Main article about domestication: Domestic rabbit

Rabbits have long been used for commercial purposes and as livestock.."

Justification: The text underneath the title doesn't discuss domestication, rather it describes commercial use and livestock. Smalletter (talk) 14:33, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done I think "domestication" here includes for reasons such as producing meat or fur, not just taming a house pet. The article at Domestic rabbit also covers those things. signed, Willondon (talk) 16:01, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Musculature

There is a grammatical error in this section that I would like to correct. Julietta Swift (talk) 08:55, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As food...

There is a pop culture reference here that I think is worth mentioning. The South Sydney rugby league team, the Rabbitohs, is not named after rabbits (although that is unavoidably their symbol), but the people who sold hunted rabbits in the street in the afternoon during the Depression, who called "rabbit-oh" for anyone who may have been looking for cheap meat for dinner. Julietta Swift (talk) 09:00, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rabbit

In the article on rabbits, there is no mention of what these animals eat. Nothing. Zero. 

 An obsession with categorization-- check.  How to tell a rabbit from a hare-- check.  An explanation as to why a Belgian hare is really a rabbit-- alrighty then.  But not a word about what they eat?  WTF.  You gotta have a section on what an animal eats-- not just on humans eating them.  Even Encyclopaedia Brittanica got this right-- a century before Al Gore invented the internet.  Someone needs to jump on this task right away.  Hop to it before readers begin gnawing on raw cabbages, out of frustration. Or raw carrots-- yum. 172.87.18.207 (talk) 10:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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