Talk:Dharma

Adding To Dharma

Dharma is a huge topic. Why does it look like, from the article, it's limited to a couple of Buddhist ideas? I'm researching some good stuff on it from the original Hindu understanding, but we need help to give this page the sort of depth it ACTUALLY deserves. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:02, Apr 3, 2004 (UTC)

Have at it. I suspect that the editors of this article in the past have mostly been Buddhists. Since, for Buddhists, dharma basically just means "Buddhism", I think that's why they haven't put together a very long article on the subject. I'll be interested to see what you come up with. -- Nat Krause 04:04, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I have an interest in the word/concept/concepts that includes its Buddhistic, Hinduistic, and Sanskritistic dimensions, but it's also really hard to explain in English, so I've been avoiding it for a bit. I'm sure part of the problem is the headers in the Buddhist section, but that's just because I needed to link from a different page to a particular meaning of the word, and had to make a header in order to do so. Oh, you dog, someone speaks.

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Language and Transcription

I'm tentatively culling "Rta (rhymes with fit)" as it is, I assume, a Hindi pronunciation. (Which is problematic only inasmuch as this is a discussion of an ancient word and its meanings.) A Sanskrit-speaker might possibly say "rituh" (the vocalic r>ri transfer being made I'm not sure when), but a Vedic speaker would have said "rrtuh".

Well, I'm Bengali, but anyway :) But nice addition. Actually, in lieu of a more precise transcription, I just added that in. In reality, the R briefly rolled, as you indicated, but the 'tuh' implies a second syllable, whereas most Sanskrit-derived words have a 'half-matra' duration at the end, which is not a whole syllable, more like a brief aspiration. That's why there's so much confusion with 'mahabhart"a"' and 'ram"a"', etc.

Sure; it might get a ɪ instead of a schwa in IPA.कुक्कुरोवाच

Could you, ummm... show me where I can learn to or teach me how to use ITRANS for Devnagari?

ITRANS itself is something to do with LaTex, and I have absolutely no understanding of anything related to LaTex. However, if you're a recent-version windows-user, you're in luck, as we have the lovely Itranslator 2003, provided by a nifty group whose ultimate religious purpose eludes me, but part of it is to provide delightful free software. (Make sure to get the 2003 version, as that's unicode-compatible.) If you aren't a window user, or you dislike installing software, we have the equally delightful Online interface to Itrans. This has the added benefit of allowing you to choose between several language modes, and of giving you the option of html output (latin-1 or utf), or GIF image output, or PDF output. And for either Itranslator or Itrans proper, the encoding table can be found here.

You might also take a look at workaround that I put together for transliterating using unicode. It uses the msg: feature. It would be considerably more effort-requiring to do the same thing in devanagari, as that would require, like, 50 individual characters. Maybe more. But it does have the decisive advantage that {msg:a} is considerably less wearisome on the eyes than ā. (This benefit will diminism somewhat after the English wiki goes unicode, but there's no saying when that will happen.)

The above workaround is deprecated, since it stresses the server unnecessarily and breaks if overused in a given page. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 19:58, 2004 Sep 5 (UTC)

Also, I'd love feedback on what's missing in this nascent operation. I am also interested in the 'dharman' appearance in the Rig Veda. Could you tell me where to find it, as I can consult and maybe incorporate it into the 'proto-dharma' discussion. --LordSuryaofShropshire 19:47, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm just going by the Monier-Williams entry, which identifies "dharman" as Vedic. No text references, which is unlike him. Hold on, maybe he hid them under a separate entry...Hmm. Well, it just gives Rigveda and Atharvaveda, and VS, which I'm not sure what that stands for. The whole entry is pasted below from http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/tamil/mwd_search.html.कुक्कुरोवाच 20:19, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

dharman m. bearer , supporter , arranger RV. ; N. of a son of Br2ihad-ra1ja and father of Kr2itam2-jaya VP. ; (%{dhA7rman}) n. (older than %{dha4rma} q.v. , in later language mostly ifc. ; cf. below) support , prop , hold RV. VS. ; established order of things , steadfast decree (of a god , esp. of Mitra-Varun2a) , any arrangement or disposition ; will , pleasure ; law , rule , duty ; practice , custom , mode , manner (%{dha4rmaNA} , %{-mabhis} ; %{-maNas@pa4ri} in regular order , naturally ; %{svAya@dhar@maNe} at one's own pleasure ; %{dharmaNi} with the permission of , %{a4dhi@dh-} against the will of [gen.]) RV. AV. VS. ; (esp. ifc.) nature , quality , characteristic mark or attribute S3Br. (cf. %{an-ucchitti-}) MBh. (cf. %{uJcha-} [add.] , %{kSatra-} , %{phala-} , %{phena}.) Var. (cf. %{dasyu-} [add.]) Kap. (cf. %{cid-dh-} [add.]) Ka1v. (cf. %{vinAza-}.).

Ahah! the internet conquers all. Or at least some. http://www.intratext.com/ixt/SAN0010/GA2.HTM

Thank you! I will familiarize myself as best I can. --LordSuryaofShropshire 23:48, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)

good work

I love the progress the article is making, keep up the great work! Sam Spade 19:46, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Splitting Up The Dharma Faiths

Hinduism and Buddhism (no one's on the Jain and Sikh viewpoints yet) are very similar in many ways, but when it gets to higher metaphysics or certain key terminologies, they are very different. Perhaps we should make this page a brief summary, maybe inlcuding the intro section and the etymology, and then split the rest into [[Dharma {Hinduism)]] and [[Dharma {Buddhism)]] pages, respectively (later Jain and Sikh)? Now that people are working on this seriously, it's going to get unwieldy pretty soon. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:02, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)

I'm also wondering about how the usage of the Dharma/Dhamma concepts would pan out with a seperation of Buddhist sects. I'm not saying that we should analyze the difference, but we should understand that any sort of seperation encourages us to pay attention to even finer details. For example, Theravada Buddhism is almost exclusively restricted to Pali, whereas Mahayana Buddhism has mass translations in almost every language it permeates. Just a thought. --Kanodin 00:26 Nov 18, 2004 (PST)

I think both these suggestions would undermine the basic contextual unity of Indian philosophy--differences over the treatment of concepts like "dharma" and "atman" between Hinduism and Buddhism and Jainism and whatnot are basically all in-house debates...let alone different branches of Buddhism. And while Buddhism has spread beyond India, in terms of the philosophical genealogy, that's insignificant. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 18:20, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've been thinking about this for a while, and feel that there is a good cause to split Dharma into at least 3 or more - Dharma (in general) acting as an informative but brief disambiguation page, Dharma (Hindu) and Dharma (Buddhist).

I understand Kukku's complaint, but there is a lot to say about Dharma merely within Buddhism or Hinduism, and one article just won't really do it. (20040302 14:10, 19 September 2005 (UTC))

Nagarjuna

I think the quote from Nagarjuna gives people the wrong impression. It was part of a larger context and he wasn't negating dharma...Nagarjuna isn't really an author you can excerpt from because his ideas are so complex

I disagree, i believe that despite the rigid format that Nagarjuna uses in his writing is mostly a simple resolve to his meaning and that was his reason for the world. That despite its complexities, its answer can be found in one simple and peaceful thought.

I'm not very happy with the Nagarjuna bit in general. The remark "...should not be mistaken with the true Dharma as expounded by the Buddha..." may be arguable, but it certainly isn't NPOV. As a prime expounder of the teachings on emptiness, Nagarjuna's teachings *are* the "true Dharma as exponded by the Buddha". Otherwise one would be claiming that the whole of the Mahayana is non-Buddhist. That may be a view that some people hold, but it certainly isn't mainstream.

If the quoted text seems unclear, surely that's because the teachings on emptiness are incredibly difficult to express, and can only really be pointed at. A lot of discussion of emptiness therefore seems contradictory. In fact contradictions are often used deliberately, to help undermine conceptual thought, as in Koans.

I'm not sure how to improve it, and I don't feel like trying to replace it just now.

From the Heart Sutra: "Therefore, Shariputra, in emptiness there is no ... suffering, no origin of suffering, no cessation of suffering, no path, no wisdom, no attainment, and no non-attainment." That passage says there's no Noble Truths. We can't just be dissing the whole of the prajnaparamita like this.

--MrDemeanour 13:56, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Basically, I agree with MrDemeanour. As the article states, Nagarjuna is not denying the existence of Dharma, but instead is denying the essential (also inherent) existence of Dharma. I will tidy out what is obviously POV. (20040302 14:07, 19 September 2005 (UTC))

Dharma and Governance

Dharma is often mistaken to be religion. Oxford dictionary describes it as the universal law of nature. It is often said to be wider than religion. It has two components. One, rituals and practises as in all religions, but here too with a difference. While many tribal faiths and even Greek beliefs were polytheistic, and faiths such as Christainty and Islam are monotheistic in that they believe in one god and one prophet, Dharma is henotheistic in that it believes in various manifestations of the only superconscious. As result it respects other faiths, sarva dharma sambhaav, and does not proseltize. This is sometimes mischieviously misinterpreted to mean that a person can be Hindu only by birth when it truly means that one has simply to say that he is Hindu to be one!

The other component of Dharma is rights and duties of various functionaries of society such as the state, business, teacher, husband, wife, father, mother and the youth. The first two define the ideology. According to ancient Hindu scriptures the Dharma or duty of the state is to allow every local entity, village and city cordinated by the janpad (district,county)to govern itself, and demand not more than one-sixth of its revenues for higher level functions and coordination. Controlling five-sixth revenues, the local governments prosper, the one-sixth of the state shoots up and it too becomes prosperous! Omnipotent (Chaktravarti) monarchs such as Ram monitored such democracy in neighbouring kingdoms thus making Bharat (India) akhand, that is one nation at a time when Europe was divided.

Gandhi advocated such true democracy. Desire of the then leadership to centralise power led to the partition of India, the traumas of Kashmir and the all round social, environemntal and political degradation witnessed today. For restoring India's ancient tradition of true democracy, People First, a trust dedicated to instituting good governance, has conceptualised that apart from parliament and an independent judiciary, contemporary democracy needs another institution, an independent Sovereign Rights Commission with authority to direct referendums, except on issues fundamental to democracy or the integrity of the nation. There can, for example be no referendum on making the state theocratic or a region seceding. Superior to the Royal Priest of bygone days, more like Gandhi, the Commission will on the bases of the wishes ascertained for the people prepare a proposed Constition and refer the present versus the proposed Constitution to the people through referendum. The people will overwhelmingly vote in favour of the latter. The Commission will then authenticate it this time truly in the name of the people as the supreme law of the nation. India will be on the path of rejvenation and lead the emergence of a just world order based on social justice and equity.

For more information, visit website www.peoplefirstindia.org. or email peoplefirst@devalt.org.

SK Sharma, Manging Trustee, People First

Why is this page part of Hinduism

Hello, I just clicked Dharma in Buddhism and was directed here. Then I typed Buddahdharma and was again directed here. This page should be representation of all darma related religions. I will off "WikiProject Hinduism". FWBOarticle

Jainism info box

Please create a Jainism small infobox or portal link, and we can add it in this article. Till then the link has been removed.

Pizzadeliveryboy 19:00, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Jain portal

Any idea how to add the Jain portal and infobox link?

Pizzadeliveryboy 23:46, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Hinduism portal shifted

There must be dozen of different indian origin religion which use dharma. There is no point and no space to put all of it in intro. Each portal should be placed where each secton of respective religion are. Plus, previous placement was bit biased toward Hinduism. FWBOarticle

Sorry, still bais towards hindus

This page is still bais towards hindu concepts of Dharma

Dear Mr.Bachmann

Apologies, but your user talk page is semi-protected and I'm too new to edit it. I request that you take a look at Muhammad as a diplomat and weigh in, if you can, on the question of whether the religious tract The Sealed Nectar is to be considered a reliable source on findings of historical fact. Your consideration is deeply appreciated.Proabivouac 07:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Merge Proposal

Buddhadharma and other Indian Dharmas is currently a POV article, and rather messy, however parts of it can be integrated into this article. Sfacets 01:40, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Oppose - would prefer merge into Hinduism and Buddhism. Addhoc 20:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I have added another merge template accordingly. The issue with merging the aryticle with Hinduism and Buddhism is what to do with the Jainism section... Sfacets 21:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Oppose It is the description of a number of different religions, and is the one of the foundations to the modern development of today. Dharma is discussed in popular, without the relation of Hinduism nor Bhuddism. Thks, Dailly Rubbings 16:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, we could put the Jainism section in Jainism and Buddhism. Addhoc 10:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

forestdhammabooks.com link -- appropriate?

Hi. Someone used anonymous IPs to add links to http://forestdhammabooks.com to a number of articles about a year ago. Most were deleted but one remained here. The same spammer later added many links to other, more commercial sites such that one of his IPs was blocked today.

I have deleted the forestdhammabooks.com link from this article as part of the overall cleanup, however if there's strong consensus here that it should be added back, by all means do so. --A. B. ^(talk) 02:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)