Talk:World War II

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This article was chosen as Article Improvement Drive article of the week on Sunday, 18th December 2005. The archive of the selection process can be found at Talk:World War II/AID vote archive

An event mentioned in this article is a September 1 selected anniversary.

To prevent future edit wars, shouldn't this be an all or nothing thing with the infobox?

People will never stop arguing over the relative importance of various countries and their contributions, so rather than endlessly discussing this, I would agree with the suggestions above to have a chronology-based list of countries (recreated below). The only other sensible alternative is simply to have Allied Powers and Axis Powers in the combatant section, with no countries explicitly named. When people follow the links, they will find the countries involved in each camp there. What are your thoughts? Brisvegas 10:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

World War II
Location {{{place}}}
Belligerents
Allies: From 1939: Poland, United Kingdom, France, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa From 1940: Norway, Belgium, Netherlands, Greece From 1941: Yugoslavia, Soviet Union, United States, China, Czechoslovakia From 1942: Brazil From 1944: Romania, Bulgaria, Finland	Axis: From 1939: Germany 1940-43: Italy 1941: Iraq (co-belligerent) 1941-44: Romania, Bulgaria, Finland (co-belligerent) From 1941: Hungary, Japan 1942-45: Thailand (co-belligerent)

I like the idea : it's not based on arbitrary cut-off criteria, and it makes interesting information available in an compact manner (listing the USA and USSR in "Allies" is unlikely to teach anything to anyone, is it ?). Rama 10:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I would prefer that over axis and allies, but not over a 3 v 5 or a 3v2.--LtWinters 16:43, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Instruments of historiography are discontinuity and continuity created by emphasizing certain events as the beginning and end points of a history or more particluarly, World War II history. This is the problem we are having in this article. I think the suggestion here may serve to resolve that issue but uncertain.

Norway stayed out of world war I and declared neutrality when World War II occured in 1939. But Norway was a victim of its location. Allied efforts to stop ore shipments to Germany were intense. Norwegian seamen were put at risk. In seven months following the declaration of war, 51 Norwegian ships were sunk and many others damaged. April 8, 1940 - Great Britain and France had declared they had mined Norwegian waters in the commercial route between the Norwegian coast and the coastal islands in order to stop Norwegian trade to Germany. Consequentially, Germany invaded Norway the next day. The allies, Great Britain, and France answered the call for help from Norway but as Great Britain, France, and the Allies invaded, Germany spanked that ... \defeated Great Britain, France, and the Allies. "The World War II Desk Reference" pgs. 92 and 211. Director Douglas Brinkley and Editor Michael E. Haskew.

Dont forget to include 1945 as some nations joined late but helped in the efforts in the Pacific theater.

List of allied nations: Abyssina, Albania, Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, Chile, China, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Egypt, El Salvador, Equador, Finland, France, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Iceland, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Luxembourg,Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Syria, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States of America, Uruguay, USSR, Yugoslavia. Neutral nations which some did aid the United States and need to be examined as to whether they are really neutral are: Republic of Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland. "Evil" axis powers- Austria, Croatia, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Romania, Slovakia, Thailand, and the USSR.

Iraq before World War II was under British power. Granted form of independence in 1932. Iraq was in full support of the British, thus the allies through the majority of the war. The only time Iraq's interests coincided with Germany's was when a military coup occured in March 1940 that was pro-Nazi. This coup lasted until May - April of 1941 where the British reinstalled a pro-British administration. "The World War II Desk Reference" pgs. 90. Director Douglas Brinkley and Editor Michael E. Haskew.

To avoid edit wars, I suggest that we come to the "allies" and "axis" compromise once again, with links to pages, which would explain, in brief paragraphs, which allied/axis country contributed what. With respect, Ko Soi IX 23:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

That idea doesn't sound too bad. --LtWinters 00:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Like I said in the preceding paragraph, this would suffice as a resolution to the problem.

To prevent future edit wars is not the purpose of Wikipedia. 5v3 is best. Haber 02:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I still say that 3 v 2 is best. But its obvious that any version exept simple "allies" and "axis" will cause never ending disputes about importance of different states. Btw, im pretty sure that infobox is most discussed part of article :) .--Staberinde 10:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anybody wants to continue beating this horse into glue, at the same time as nobody wants to accept the "opposing" solution. The debate doesn't need to stop, but it should probably be toned down. Too many kilobytes are being given to this relatively minor detail. Instead of stifling debate by outlawing a listing of individual countries, let what happens, happen. If the infobox falls down the slippery slope into a cancerously bloated state, then I'm certain that somebody will take a scalpel to it. In fact, I'm sure somebody will pick up a scalpel before the infobox slides more than a few metaphorical inches. The current infobox has been unchanged for almost two weeks, now. That seems stable. No, it's not a perfect portrayal of the combatants to every editors' eyes, but it might be the least imperfect of all possible portrayals. I'd advise we all take a wiki-break from this topic to focus on more important issues, at least for a few days or weeks. Let's see what happens. Xaxafrad 01:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. With maximum respect to everyone (the vast majority (with the exception of one or two) of whom have conducted themselves properly and in the Wiki spirit), it's depressingly obvious from recent exchanges that even now very few correspondents actually understand what this issue is about, despite the huge volume of debate that the topic has already generated. It is pointless continuing. Let Haber have his way- he has made it very clear that he is not willing to compromise and unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on one's point of view) editing WP depends on a spirit of cooperation and good will that is not in evidence here. I don't think the current state of the infobox matches consensus, I don't think it tallies with existing policy, I think it's unnecessarily misleading, and it certainly creates a confusing mismatch between en.WP and the other language encyclopaedias. The general debate has been carried out in an unnecessarily rancorous and internecine manner. I can't see anything that can be done about it now however. Let's hope that the infobox remains stable for now and perhaps is improved at some point in the future to more closely match consensus. Badgerpatrol 02:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I've always been a proponent of the Allies and Axis (and their allies/co-belligerents) since it's indisputably historically accurate and NPOV.

Reading the current infobox looks like a bias for France, how can Charles de Gaulle be considered a commander when he was neither a national leader (at least not until almost the end of the war) and led a force significantly smaller then most high-ranking generals/field commanders from the "major" powers? And why is there no mention of the Vichy Regime as a co-belligerent of the Axis? They were a far more significant force then the Free French, both in numbers and territory. And exactly which "France" is the info-box referring to? The 3rd Republic, Free French (which seems likely since we're using de Gaulle as a leader) or the 4th Republic? Is it some kind of amalgamation of them which conspicuously ignores the Vichy Regime?

Additionally, we list Hirohito, whose exact role between functional-head-of-state and figurehead is disputable. Oberiko 18:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

And how are we doing leaders? If we're going by when the nation declared war (and including France), we should have, for example; Chamberlin, Roosevelt and Édouard Daladier. If we are going by when the war ended, we should have Churchill Clement Attlee, Harry Truman and De Gaulle. Is it by who was in office the longest for the wars duration? Oberiko 13:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Churchill wasn't the Prime Minister when the Second World War ended, but apart from that I fully agree. The current situation is confusing to the point of being misleading. But I really don't think there's anything we (=the majority) can do about it. Badgerpatrol 17:33, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

You're right, I was basing it off of V-E day, but more correctly should have used V-J day with Attlee as PM. If the majority want it as Allies and Axis, what's the problem with changing it? Revert wars? Oberiko 18:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Importance of Eastern Front?

• I think the head of the article (/the article as a whole) should make clear that 'World War 2' was essentially 'Germany vs Soviet Union + other minor theatres'. I don't mean to bash anyone here or downplay what people went through in other parts of the world, but if you read the most standard books on WW2 or ask a historian (or a professor like I did) they will always say WW2 was essentially the Eastern Front. I think everyone agrees that the Western and Southern European fronts were mere diversions to the real thing in Russia, but also the Pacific theatre was only a minor theatre compared to this. Plus the Japanese knew from the start they were going to lose a war against the USA or USSR as long as China was still unconquered.

• Another thing is the sentence: "The dominance of Europe faded due to the rise of decolonization/independence movements in Asia and Africa, while Europe itself began traveling the road leading to unification". As far as I know decolonization and independence movements were strong long before WW2. This sentence implies decolonization resulted from WW2, which is a bit too simple and wrong. Plus, "the dominance of Europe faded" is also very vague, cause European economic dominance did not disappear, nor did American or Russian economic dominance appear as the sentence before that implies (Europe is still the biggest market in the world). Perhaps it should state only that European Imperialism (which led to dominance of the world) disappeared, because that was certainly the case.

So I suggest there comes something in the upper part that shows the Eastern Front was the most important by far, because right now it seems like all theatres were of equal importance. And the other sentence is a bit easy and short so could get some nuance.

Wiki1609 16:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to write this, but you should talk to other teachers and read other books, notably about the asian front where war raged from 1937 and not 1941... Just begin by these Wikipedia articles : Battle of Taierzhuang, Battle of Changde Battle of Changsha (1939) and Battle of Okinawa...--Flying tiger 16:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I also strongly disagree. Although a large amount of German casualties was taken due to the USSR, the Western Front was definantly important because it served the purpose of not only diverting Germany's forces but of conquering a part of Germany. Take a look of the border of Poland to the Elbe River, as a pose to the coast of Normandy to the Elbe. About the same distance, huh? And let's not forget to mention Hitler wasted 1,000 planes in the Battle of Britain. The southern front in Italy is understandable to see it as disregardable, but it was instrumentle in training troops, such as the 82nd airborne, for the assault in Normandy. Also, Austria was attacked through it at the end of the war. The war in the Pacific is extremely important as well, considering millions of deaths were accounted for and Japanese agression seriously endangered the United States in 1942. --LtWinters 20:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

@ LtWinters, as I said the Western Front did divert some of military resources of Germany, but that was it and nothing more. The fact they could 'conquer' part of German territory was because the Germans were losing in the East. Normandy was even so late in the war, that it can be considered unnecessary as the Soviets held out long enough to gain the initiative. And your comparison of the border of Poland to the Elbe versus the Normandy coast to the Elbe is just wrong. For the Eastern Front you'd have to count all the way from Grozny in Chechnya to the Elbe, which is a far far longer distance than from the Atlantic coast.

@ Flying tiger, the Professor (not teacher) I talked with (actually I just asked a question in a lecture) is one of the best known historians in my country. I must admit he did not count the 1936 to 1941 conflict between China and Japan as part of WW2, but this is done quite often. As pointed out in this discussion earlier, this conflict started even before 1936 and it was in many ways seperate from the war with the US and European powers. And though the battles in China often involved large numbers, not much was decided nor did it affect countries other than China and Japan.

Wiki1609 22:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, does anyone agree with you? Anyone? Does anyone feel that the United States and Great Britain did so little towards the war effort, including against the war against Japan that the USSR only joined with what 3 days left of it, that they are considered only as diversionary-attackers?--LtWinters 22:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I also disagree with Wiki1609's point here. Say the Germans had defeated the British in Egypt, taken the Middle East, and linked up with the German army in the Caucasus in 1942. All that oil (the lack of which was a serious problem for the Germans throughout the war) and the removal of the 2nd front would've greatly improved the German war effort in the East. Not to mention the crack panzer divisions that stayed in the West throughout the war, against a potential Anglo-American invasion, that could've turned the tide in the crucial years of '42-'43. And lets not forget about the Battle of the Atlantic. Without America and Britain securing the supply lines through the Atlantic and Artic oceans, the Soviets would've been crushed at Stalingrad. End of the war in the East. These are just a few examples. Again, the Pacific Theatre was incredibly crucial. Had Japan defeated the United States, England, and China in 1942, she would've most likely turned on the Soviet's poorly defended rear, which would've been catastrophic to the Soviet war effort. No more Tankograd in the east? Probably no victory at Kursk. Saying that WWII is essentially the Eastern Front and nothing more is mind-blowingly simplistic and horribly skewed. I don't know where your history professor studied World War II, but he might want to get his money back. Parsecboy 00:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

that's so full of bullicks. Mao defeated the Nationalists in classic set-piece battles, not this "countryside surrounding cities" guerrilla myth. That stuff is from the 20s and 30s when the communists altered their strategy to create revolution in the countryside rather than foment labor unrest in the cities like in Europe. Get those concepts confused and you sound really stupid. Blueshirts 19:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

@ Parsecboy, your comment is only proving my point. The operations you name, Africa and the Atlantic, were aimed at diverting resources from the Germans to help the Russians, because that was what it was all about! Whoever won on the Eastern Front would win the whole thing, thats why the Western Allies struggled to get as many supplies as possible over to the Russians. There was no notable fighting in the West until June 1944, at that time the Russians were already preparing for Bagration. Stalin had been begging for an attack by the West from 1941, but it didnt come. Probably because the West didnt mind that Russia got weakened all the time but this also meant the Russians did all the fighting alone. When D-Day came fighting in the East was already getting worse for the Germans, yet another diversion weakened them even further. So it was important but only that it weakened the German position in the East and that was its worth.

And you should not try to think 'if the Germans won in Africa' or 'if they won in Normandy' but 'what if they won in Russia'! If they had defeated the Soviets they could have easily taken Africa, Britain, the Middle East, maybe even India! The German Empire stood or fell in the East and nowhere else. Its a fact that the Western powers were not very important to Germany (except for France, but they were defeated), Britain was a pain in the arse but the Germans never really wanted to invade it or even go to war with them. The US were important only economically by supporting the USSR. They were destined to win their fight against the Japanese from the start, which is the only place they were a large military factor. When fighting the West before 1941 the Japanese had only been attacking weak colonial garrisons like Indonesia (except for the British one) so their conquest wasnt that hard to achieve. And please lets keep the discussion organized and clear.

Wiki1609 11:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Whoever won the eastern front would have won the whole thing The USSR would have lost, if there was not the United States and Great Britain to mount offensives, not at the aim of diverting resources, but at the aim driving into Germany (Well DER Germany and not anywhere else, or else they would have invaded Norway like Hitler thought, forcing him to move troops and supplies to a bad place for a battlefield). It comes down to whether people believe whether the USSR would have been able to battle Germany by itself, without Germany facing any other threat (be that as small as it may be). Well I say Russia would have lost without Great Britain and the US.--LtWinters 21:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

While the allies certainly helped the Soviet Union, and it is quite possible that without their help the USSR would fall, by the time the allies drove into Germany the war in Europe was already decided. The main reason for the opening of the Second Front in June 1944 was to prevent the Russians from reaching the Atlantic. Symbolically, the fate of the Third Reich was decided at Stalingrad, and sealed at Kursk. The Eastern Front of WWII contained more combat than all the other european fronts combined; the european axis suffered from 75% to 85% casualties there. With respect, Ko Soi IX 10:35, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Wiki1609, I presume when you write that Japan attacked colonial possessions before 1941, you wish to refer to French Indochina, not Indonesia... Anyway, your argument that no big fights occured in Asia is not founded when you consider the battles in China, Philippines, Okinawa, Iwo Jima. Yout argument that the battles in China did not affect other countries can also be use against USSR. Was the impact of Stalingrad more important on USA than Changde ? Those battles had indirect impact on countries not involved in weakening the positions of the loser. Thus by losing the eastern european front, Germany could not fight back adequatly in the west and by not being able to conquer China, Japan lost in Philipines, Burma and some big islands of the Pacific. (By the way, just considering the 30 millions deaths in Asia (10 millions at least in China) caused by the showa invasion, you can not argue that this was a minor front...) --Flying tiger 21:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

• I think that the Eastern Front was very important. It diverted something like 85% of Germany's forces away from the West, and if the Germans had won there, D-day would have probably never happened. Had Stalin been a better general and had he not purged his generals, the Eastern front war would have been over much sooner. Loyh 20:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Wiki1609 is rather correct. Remove the Allies on the Western front, and the USSR simply conquers Europe. The Western front was important in the sense that it prevented the post-war from being the unrestricted rise of stalinism ; but as for the war itself, it was no more significant than the Free French contribution was important to the Allies: a key strategic move aimed at the post-war, and a significant but non-essential help for the war itself. Rama 07:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Remove the Western Allies and the Soviets would have been defeated at Stalingrad and Stalin would've learned to speak German. Parsecboy 12:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Remove blablabla learn to speak [name of the language of the archdevil]... For Heisenberg's love, listen to yourself ! Rama 12:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry I've been trying to resist this East Coast-West Coast silliness, but it's just too tempting. Supposing that the Western Allies go home as late as Spring 1944, has anyone considered what would happen in the air or at sea? Hundreds of U-boats in the Baltic, anyone? A delay of the Soviet offensive by even a year would have meant that their air force would have been up against more and better German jets. Give the Germans back air parity, and are we sure they wouldn't use chemical or biological weapons on the Soviets? No matter what, the war would have taken longer, and my guess is that the Germans could have inflicted so much pain on the Soviets as to make the invasion of eastern Germany impossible. Haber 12:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me but type VII and type IX u-boats were not designed to operate easily in the shallow waters of the baltic. It would just have resulted in most of them being easy targets and consequently destroyed. About the supposed nazi WMD, why would they have used them in your fictional history when in reality they have never used them on the battlefield even when their situation was deseperate? Med 13:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The story I heard was that Hitler had been through gas attacks in WWI and didn't like them. Nevertheless I think the principle of Massive retaliation also had something to do with it. Good point about the U-boats though. Haber 19:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

What I am saying all the time is that the real fighting was going on in the East, and fighting is what matters in a war. The US was very useful in supporting the USSR and the British, Canadians, French etc. that kept fighting in the West kept the Germans busy, but the decisive fight was simply in the East. The West was a minor theater for the Germans after 1940. And I'm not saying that the USSR would have held out without Western aid (I even doubt it), but this doesnt matter for my point. I see the use of the Western front as this: up to 1943 the Western Allies fought to relieve the Russians (but not quite enough, to keep both them and the Germans busy) and after that it was a race to halt the advance of Communism further than the German border. Actually most of Eastern Europe had been fighting Communism along with the Germans, too bad for them they lost. Wiki1609 14:40, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, because for sure if the allies were not in North Africa or Europe at all, Germany would have probably beat the USSR. Wiki, because of your arguement, you could even say that the USSR was a way to keep Germany busy so that the western allies were able to push against an easier force and drive into Germany. --64.205.199.7 15:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Basically, the Russians defeated the Wehrmacht, while the most important thing the Allies did was defeating Luftwaffe. The Germans lost 42 thousand planes to the Allies, and no less than 30 thousand to the Soviet Union. With respect, Ko Soi IX 13:15, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

One thing that is way too simplistic and dead wrong is to say that one nation defeated Germany. It took the whole world, and Adolf Hitler, to defeat Germany. The USSR took the vast majority of the casualties and the economic losses, the infrastructural damage, etc. Half the male population of countries like Georgia, etc died in the war. 95% of those aged 17-21 in Russia died. 9-12 million soviet soldiers died in combat. 10-20 million more Soviet civilains died. 80% of German casualties in WWII occured fight the Soviet Union. That was because there was no one left on continent to fight Germany unti she was weak enough, and the west strong enough to invade mainland Europe in the last 10 months of the war. The majority of battles happened in the East. I think 3 out of every 4 in the whole war were soviet-German engagements. Americans never faced the sort of Armor formations that the Germans had in the first few years of the war, the soviets did. Just look at Kursk, and that is all the proof you need. Again, why did we let them take Berlin? because we thought it was theres. Each theatre was important, and the west caused the Germans to lose air superiority in East, but it was HItler's insane orders and his obsessive dividing of his forces capabilites to attack new targets and open new fronts, all the while over rulling of his top Generals, along with his fanatical "fight to the last man" policy that really did the Germans in despite having taken on, essentially, the whole world with countless conquests and successes between 1939-42. Of any place the Eastern Front is definately the most vital to the WWII, however, people shouldn't get their knickers in a twist in the west by this. USA wasn't even killing people until 1942, Germany had been at war for going 3 years at that point. The western contributions to the war were also vital to helping to defeat Nazi Germany. The German military killed more enemies then they lost, and the vast majoritey of their losses came in 1945 when the war had already been strategically impossible to win for quite some time. In adidtion, Germans were much more likely to surrenders to the West Allies then the Soviets. THis made the fighting at the end often less intense in the west, and thus the speed of the invasion faster through france, then the Soviets in the East. Also, alot of the Germans were fighting to get civilians into Western zones, for fear of Soviet atrocities against the civilian population. The hatred for the Soviets was much greater then that for the Americans and even the Brits.

I think that the Western Front is important cause they won. --64.205.199.7 14:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

So you do agree that the Eastern Front was the most important of all? So this should be made clear here on wikipedia. It should educate everyone that visits this site, and (perhaps especially Americans) should learn their part in the war was minor when it came to fighting. Even the fighting they did in Europe was on an entirely different scale than in the East, basically the Western allies bombed the hell out of a place with aircraft and artillery and then let the infantry move into the ruins, not much fighting for the average infantryman there.

Anyway, the Germans also didnt fight the Russians just because there was noone left on the continent, they fought them last because they knew they were the biggest challenge. The Germans (and Hitler) knew that after the German unification, they surpassed France as the greatest European power. They also knew that while the Germans were the mightiest between 1870 and the near future, Russia was closing in qua population and industrial output. They overestimated the Russians in WW1, but their fear became reality in WW2 even though the Russians still required help. In short, the Germans knew and expected the Eastern Front to be deciding in both WW1 and WW2 (just look at the Schlieffen plan and the fact France was attacked first in WW2). And this should be made clear in this Wiki article. Wiki1609 23:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the fallout from WW1 and the events of the interbellum deserve to be treated a little more heavily than they currently are. Most governments were afraid of another war of attrition, while Germany and Japan were downright itching to go to war. Xaxafrad 04:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Ultimately I think it'd be OR to definitely state that one phase of the conflict was more-important. We can state factual metrics (men, % of armed forces, casualties etc.) and quote reputable historians, but not infer anything directly ourselves.

Personally, I've always held to the feeling that the military combat portion of WWII can be divided up into four roughly-equal areas.

• Germany & allies v.s. Western Allies
  • Polish Campaign
  • Norwegian Campaign
  • Battle of France
  • Battle of Britain
  • Battle of Greece
  • Middle East and Africa
  • Battle of the Atlantic
  • Italian Campaign
  • Western European Campaign (1944-1945)
• Germany & allies v.s. Soviet Union
• Japan & allies in South-East Asia (China, Burma etc.)
• Japan & allies in the Pacific

The reason why I expanded out the first one is to emphasis that, while none of the campaigns of Germany vs the West individually come close to the scale of the Eastern Front, all of them put together are significant enough to stand in the same tier.

In my opinion, this is also how we should structure the article, it would prevent hopping around, as each of the four areas are relatively self-contained (whereas something like the Battle of Greece had a direct impact on the campaign in Africa) and it would give the Soviet-German War more emphasis then it currently has (and deserves); putting in the same heading level as "Germany's Atlantic Wall" is, IMHO, not very representative. Oberiko 13:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Confused unsigned comments

First, don't take the professor's advice as gospel. I, myself, have proven proffesor's have been wrong. Never get into a type of mentality where the professor knows everything and you accept everything he or she may say and regurgitate to an audience as if you were a zombie. Not intentionally implying you do but professors should not be looked upon as speakers of axioms in history. Consider what they say and most importantly recognize they are humans with bias as well and at times because of their position as a professor allow their overconfidence to relax into a false sense of "knowing it all". On the contrary, just when you decide you know everything, you really know nothing :) Nevertheless, I agree with you that WW II was predominantly European and the Pacific theater was minor. However, I disagree with the Japan and China assertion. Japan was seriously mistaken if it believed that pacifying China would allow it to win against the Unted Sttaes. Japan was trying to get a compromise with a United States but didn't bank on the fact that the Allies were not going to compromise :( Preceding WW II, many western and a good number of eastern journalists printed in their papers that Japan could never defeat Russia and China. japan did both. Japan tried the third time at beating a giant like the United States but what was different was that Japan was facing too m any nations that supported the United States and their unconditional surrender. Japan gambled and lost dearly. In my personal opinion, I think that that little island country the size of California lost the war the day of Pearl Harbor. I still look back at that event and wonder which idiot decided to gamble. Therefor, China or no China, it doesn't make a difference. Anyone familiar with how governments are st up should also be familiar that the appearance and actual control of a coutnry are twoo different things and Japan would have created more difficulties for itself in the long run with the appearance of control over China. Finally, I strongly disagree with your assertion about decolonization. Yes you are right, decolonization attempts ot attempts at independence did occur pre-WW II. However, the proliferation of these movements and the extents to which these movements went were significant enough to label the events of decolonization a historical period or reaction. Is tudy insurgencues and independence movements and know personally that pre-WWII movements of independence did not exist as the period we know as decolonization. Independence movements were not stron befor WW II. They were weak. Post-World War II Bretton Woods Conference may have been an indication of a new arisal of economic dominance but let's be realistic here. Low-Intensity Conflicts during the Cold War cannot and should not be ignored. They occured at such a scale to disinguish the decolonization term you revoke and also challenges western dominance in the geographic areas where these movements occurred. We cannot ignore history here based on esoteric semantics because 9 times out of ten, those semantics are used in place of a weak argument. So, decolonization is a term and deserves to be distinguished as a historical term and event. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.127.73.253 (talk • contribs)

Uggggh, those books are not the gosepl, sorry to burst your bubble and mentioning those books don't shake anyone's legs. State what you use form these books, don't just mention the books. How would people feel if I suggested to you to read the Bible or something :) In addition, what geographical region are these books referring to and was that the minor aspect of WW II? Moreover, post-WW II Low- intensity Conflicts occurred more in Latin America than asia. Are you aware of that? How many of those battles were by Mao which you have mentioned? Nothing you have stated makes sense, please make sens out of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.127.73.253 (talk • contribs)

Your professor sounds like he is very skilled. When you get into post-graduate studeis you will be taught how an emphasis on single events can continue a sense of continuity and discontinuity. These instruments are very effective in creating a chronology that an individual may decide to add or discount certain events in order to make a target or country appear as the good guy or bad guy. Be careful when people do this, because it could make the difference between being wrong or embarrasingly wrong. Japanese imperialism is a part of World War II. The United States became involved in the war officially after Pearl Harbor and as a result of actions partaken by Japan. We must remember that these actions such as Pearl Harbor were taken when Japan was in its process of Japanese imperialism. Thus to seperate 1936 from the rest of WW II history is a very good propaganda tool and I would say your professor is very talented and I admire him for that :) Nevertheless, Pearl Harbor was a result of Japanese imperialism and it could be looked upon as wrong to seperate the period of Japanese imperialism form WW II history when the single most influential event that led to US involvement in this war was a result of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.127.73.253 (talk • contribs)

Probably the same place I am :) It is unconscionable and humorous to even consider that the U.S. did more fighting that the Soviets. The United States' importance in this war was very high and in all wars reserves that arrive to join the battle are like little angels to soldiers whom desperately need that morale and resources. However, the united States came into the war when the majority of the heavy fighting was already done and sacrifices of various countries on both sides were already done. Japan winning the war:) That is the biggest joke I have heard in my entire life. Where did or do you get your education? The Unisverisyt of Cold War propaganda? It is convenient for purpose of American hubris to make an enemy appear stronger or "evil" in order to make one's own actions appear larger than what they are. The Soviet Union did more and in my opinion, had it not been for the Soviet Union, we would all be speaking German today :) Japan, yeah ok , they were a real threat like the perpetrtaors of 9/11 hugh. One more reiteration of a point here for the baka guyjins that think they know Japanese history. Japan gave the appearance of control in China. The Japanese and Chinese writers on both sides of the issue whom were involved with the war or have studied the war all state that Japan never came close to controlling China nor did they really have control in the areas Japan claimed they did. Let's get out of the conventional war type of thinking that led us into the quagmire of Viet-Nam, "gaining control of a city when an enemy moves out of the area, neither means defeat of the enemy or actual control the geographic area surrounding that city. Hmmmm. Mao Tse Tsung once said surround the cities within the countryside and swim amongst the people as a fish swims in a sea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.127.73.253 (talk • contribs)

How many deaths were there when comparing the European and Pacific theater of the war? Japan never threatend the United States. Japan was no more a threat than African-Americans were on drugs when souther white men claimed that cocaine caused the "evil" african americans to rape white women and that the chinese were purposely using opium to make white people into slaves in San Franciso. STOP! We are tired of the lies and the propaganda that continues to plague western culture. The constant, they are dangerous communists, they are dangerous terrosists, etc. The games are up and everyone including Americans can see through all the lies and Operation Northwoods. Enough is enough and there is no more wolf in the world. Japan's biggest act of threatening aggression was a surprise attack against the U.S. which the U.S. easily recovered from. 9/11 was by a group of psycho terrorists supporting a man with a lot of money and one man's terorist is another mna's freedom fighter. We are suppsoedly against terrorism but what about the likes of Luis Carriles and the COntras or government s we supported guilty of genocide as suring the India-Pakistani War of 1971 and Guatemala etc.etc.etc. Nevetheless, the Japanese were never a real threat and it is the perpetuation of this myth which has continued to uphold western propaganda during the Cold War against countries that event western journalists from this country acknowledged as a farce to the war on terrorism. Let's be realistic here, the war on terrorism is a war against anyone who doesnt support our status quo in the world. Many U.S. government documents petaining to regimes we supported in the past that committed genocide all show the same pattern of reaction from US officials, "we still can count on them to support our policies". Anyone familiar with this area finds this familiar as well. Or anytime Israel steps out of line in doing something the international community feels is horrendous , watch to see if the statement by our officials is "it doesnt help" because its becoming cliche:) Anyways, Japan wasnt a threat and anyone that beleives in this myth is not so short from becoming a machine uncapable for thinking for themselves. Sorry, the truth does hurt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.127.73.253 (talk • contribs)

Pardon my point of view, but you yourself sound like a propaganda machine. Who's a baka guyjin? The Japanese military was a threat to a lot of people before August 1945. The fact is, it was easier for the Allies to starve the Japanese islands than it was for Hitler to starve Britain. Were the atomic bombs necessary? No: the Soviets could've continued their land grab for another few months, the Allies and Japanese could've gone to hand to hand combat should an invasion have been authorized, while the Chinese and Burmese people could've continued living in subservience to the Japanese Empire. Xaxafrad 07:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you on the unecessariness of the atomic bombs. Nevertheless, you accused me of sounding like a propaganda machine with negligence toward HOW? Stating somehting doesnt make it a dictum, sorry. The Japanese were not a threat to anyone but Asians. There is no eveidence of extension of an Asian empire to include land where whites lived. You have made a grave error in your thinking. In fact, if you look at history, the most aggressive of any culture when considering west versus east is an undeniable west. The European countries were the only ones involved in the land grabs of north and south American continents, massive genocide on native indegenous, massive migrations of Europeans to both continents, forced assimilation and mixing of races. No eastern country partook of actions of such a massive scale. Western culture has always been the leaders in the choseness propaganda and in the superiority complex. How many colored people in the world support western versions or "versions" of history. Worse, western history including this country's can always consistently be accused and rightfully so of not considering the victim's viewpoint. Even in its criminal courts, the victim is emphasized as an important aspect of the incident, but when it comes to history of western culture, what a direct opposite. As I have always maintained, western history has turned into a repetitive and boring cycle of we got all the power and money and did it by being good people doing good things. Vomit doesnt describe the adequate response to such PROPAGANDA :) More and more the rest of the international community is starting to see that the US and the west in general love to demonize a weak enemy and make it seem larger to justify its consistent use of excessive force and expansion of influence. We are starting to get tired of the US hollering and shouting and disrespecting other cultures in the world, contradicting its own self-proclaimed beliefs, and basically bullying other countries because it can. Here is the shcoker, there is no wolf in the world. The only sheep in the world that should be afraid are the sheep that oppose US interests abroad. Has been like this especially post-Spanish American War and now. Even American cronies in continents across the world will support the US but always claim they are restricted in what they can or cant do because of US threat of force or other economic pressures. Anyone whom has traveled and spoke with others on other countries are starting to see more and more of this:) Nothing is permanent and the US will inevitably lose its hegemony, the question is HOW it will lose it and through lokking at its history of the accumultation of lies and masssacres, its far from a positive one.

splittig the article?

Since the horrors of WWII are of such magnitude and spread all over the world, perhaps we should split the article into pacific and a european war. Or even in three parts: Europe western front/conflicts, europe eastern front and pacific. On the other hand, there still should be a general article. It is arguable that the conflicts in the pacific and in europe didn't influence each other to a great extent. Central points, of course, must be the futility and waste, although it can also be argued that that is not being very encyclopedic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sikkema (talk • contribs)

If you look, there already are the split articles, at Pacific War, European Theatre of World War II, Eastern Front (World War II). The Pacific theatre has been split even further into Pacific Ocean theater of World War II, Second Sino-Japanese War, South-East Asian theatre of World War II, and South West Pacific theatre of World War II.

It is also arguable that the theatres did affect each other a great deal. For example, because the Soviets were comfortable with the non-aggression pact with Japan, they were able to withdraw their crack troops from Siberia, and send them to carry the day at Moscow. Without them, the Soviets might have lost the war. The British were stretched very thin between fighting the Germans in the Western theatre and trying to defend against Japan in Burma. We could imagine other what-if scenarios all day long relating to the dependence of one theatre on the other, but I don't feel like it at the moment. Parsecboy 00:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

An encyclopedic treatment of World War II that supercedes, but doesn't impinge upon, the scope of over a dozen well developed sub-articles...Although World War II should be able to stand on it's own, without necessarily considering any sub-articles. Xaxafrad 04:28, 6 June 2007 (UTC)