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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 81.0.68.145 (talk) at 19:28, 27 June 2007 (→‎Removed statement about B-2 Spirit of Missouri being shot down in 1999). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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/Archive 1: March 2003 - June 2006

Contrary statement

The B-2, akin to the F-117, relies on very low observability and signature. This condition is compromised if the aircraft is flown in wet conditions. This is false.

I've removed the later part of the quote as it contradicts itself. Feel free to add it again if we can determine if it is true or not. // Azninja

Holloman AFB suspends flight operations for the F-117 because, as one woman who worked there put it, ‘the planes are made of cardboard and come unglued during the rain’. Since the B-2 uses the same (or similar, I forget which) materials it should be in the same boat. TomStar81 09:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The planes are not built of cardboard or glue and a quote from "one woman" is hardly evidenceBQZip01 18:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

B-2 antigravity speculation removed

Removed long speculative digression about B-2 leading edge electrostatic charge improving thrust or lift via (essentially) antigravity. No rational basis for this, depite being published as speculation in 1992 Aviation Week (Not Jane's Defense Week). This is an encyclopedia not Usenet. I believe the article is reprinted here: [1]. Joema 14:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • I just want to say "thank you" for your initivie in removing that frankly stupid section of this article, and I just want to say that I wish I bothered to take such initivite myself. 24.9.10.235 21:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I suggest that the antigravity stuff -- of which there is a huge amount on the Above Top Secret forum -- is related to the "fact" that the B-2 has some very unusual high voltage charging of its leading wing edge and also the exhaust stream. There are several sources, here is one: www.bookrags.com/wiki/B-2_Spirit. From this source, I quote: "For reasons not yet de-classified, the B-2 charges its leading edge to a very high electrical potential difference from its exhaust stream. It has been suggested (by Jane's Defence) that it augments the B-2's low thrust main engines. It is also a well known phenomenon that an ionised gas (plasma) will scatter a radar beam far more effectively than a solid surface of any conceivable shape. This could be the purpose of the high voltage leading edge. Another possibility is that it is for the purpose of reducing drag, since the leading edge of the B-2 might then move through a partial vacuum of ionised air which may be ionised and repelled by the high voltage. In any case, it is however true that Northrop engineers conducted wind tunnel tests using high voltage on a testbed wing leading edge to reduce supersonic drag as far back as 1968. These tests were with a view to breaking up the airflow ahead of the wing using electrical forces in order to soften a sonic boom. How this applies (if indeed it does at all) to the B-2 after an interval of many years is uncertain. The B-2 is (officially) a subsonic vehicle, so there would appear to be no immediate link, however tantalising the connection. Though intriguing, the true nature of this feature will probably not be known to the public for some very considerable time." Please note I place this quote here in the discussion area, not in the article body. -- SunSw0rd 17:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The above Bookrags.com source was itself taken from an earlier version of the Wikipedia B-2 article. In other words, it's a self-referencing, or circular citation. I don't know what the original source was, but a reference in support of Wikipedia that was itself copied verbatim from Wikipedia carries no weight. Also, a conspiracy discussion forum like www.abovetopsecret.com is no more a credible reference for an encyclopedia than a Usenet discussion. See WP:Reliable sources, and Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence. Joema 19:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So perhaps you would prefer a direct quote from Janes Defence Weekly. " While airframe shaping is part of the QSP approach, DARPA is asking companies to look at other means of sonic boom suppression. DARPA specifically mentions the use of plasmas to reduce drag at supersonic speed. Russian work dating back to the 1970s indicates that it is possible to reduce the intensity of the shock wave from an aeroplane's nose by generating an electrical field in the airflow, which creates a plasma, or electrically charged gas stream.
The USAF Research Laboratory has sponsored a number of tests in an effort to reproduce the Russian plasma results. So far, the US researchers say they do not completely understand the mechanism involved. For example, there is no agreement as to whether the shock reduction is caused by heat, by the change in the molecular structure of the gas caused by the plasma, or both. Tests continue in the US and Russia, using a variety of plasma generators (some with inert gas injection) to create stable and streamer-like discharges.
It is safe to assume that other plasma-aerodynamics research has been carried out under classified programs, because of the technology's potential for reducing the drag of supersonic aircraft. Some of this work may be available to the DARPA effort." SunSw0rd 17:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would say that supercavitation is related phenomenon. This phenomenon is used e.g. with super-fast torpedoes, like the Russian Shkval. --MoRsE 17:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed statement about B-2 Spirit of Missouri being shot down in 1999

It obviously did not happen as there are many dated images of the Spirit of Missouri since then: [2], [3], [4] Joema 22:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Those photos are no proof.
What you see today as "Spirit of Missouri" is a new aircraft. US sources confirmed, Russian sources confirmed and Serbian sources confirmed this kill. I even have photos of the crash site and photos of pieces of this aircraft. But official politics are "deny". I'll not go deeply into this. I just wanted to make an statement that this craft WAS destroyed. [5] Yurion
The stealth aircraft that was shot down over Kosovo in 1999 was a F-117 not a B-2 --Paladin 13:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I can explain: There is a wild conspiracy theory that the B-2 "Spirit of Missouri" was shot down in the Kosovo conflict in June 1999. Supposedly it was stupidly flying very low which gave the anti-aircraft missiles a better chance. The pilots were too dumb to know their JDAM GPS-guided bombs were equally accurate when dropped from 40,000 feet. To cover up things, the U.S. Air Force repainted another B-2 with the same markings until they could build a replacement. They also bought off or brainwashed the B-2 crewmember's relatives to keep their silence. This clever ruse was possible because all 21 B-2s were never seen simultaneously at the same place. The Serbs also cooperated in the conspiracy by not showing any B-2 component wreckage with serial numbers, unlike the downed F-117A which was widely televised. That kind of thing is fine for Usenet, but this is an encyclopedia. Appropriately, WP:NOT says "You might wish to go to Usenet or start a blog if you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views". That is good advice in this case. Joema 19:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

B-2s being shot down in Allied Force make for a good bedtime story. However, that is all it is. No fact. Just consider alone that the B-2 being nuke capable is part of the START treaty. It's inventory is always known by TREATY. A missing/lost airframe couldn't be hidden. Want to deploy it to Guam? Got to tell the Russians. Diego? Ditto. 6 November 2006( ELP ).

You have proof? Show us just ONE picture or a legal document.BQZip01 18:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is known that a second stealth aircraft was hit by SAM fire in the Kosovo campaign. The damaged plane returned to base with great difficulty and wrecked itself in a belly-up landing so much it never flew again. Whether that stealth plane was an F-117 or a B-2 is not specified. 81.0.68.145 19:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed statement about B-2 withdrawal from Kosovo operation due to F-117A shootdown

The F-117A was shot down on March 27, 1999. Use of other F-117As and B-2 bombers continued after this in the Kosovo operation: [6], [7]. Joema 22:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not stealthy when wet?

I reverted the addition about not being stealthy when wet. These statements apparently stem from a 1997 GAO report which has been heavily politicized and isn't representative of current real world B-2 operational issues. The actual and current operational B-2 limitations seem less restricted and more complex. Also in general the B-2 operates from 40,000 feet (which is far above rain and the weather) using GPS-guided bombs. It's not like the F-117A stealth fighter which bombs from relatively low altitude (in the weather) using laser-guided bombs. For details see:

Uh, the article says it's a low-altitude bomber, which required "significant changes" from the original, high-altitude bombing platform. Furthermore, hurricanes and thunderclouds regularly reach up to 60,000 feet. And I'd also like to point out that the nighthawk is hardly a fighter. ... aa:talk 18:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Almost all aircraft avoid thundestorms and hurricanes at all costs, so this argument is very weak. "Stealth fighter" is its name and designation; its mission is clearly that of a bomber.BQZip01 18:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Weapons update

B-2 now has the ability to employ an 80 JDAM drop of 500lb. GBU-38 JDAMs. Video of a 2003 test: http://das.wisc.edu/~bhp/Pictures/M..._with_JDAMs.asx I would recommend that the "Feature" section mention this a bit or someone will think it can only frag 16 aimpoints with PGMs.

Armament section of the article: What the heck is a JDAM-102 ????

Also of minor interest,some pre-Boeing JDAM history here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/gam.htm Before the final DOD contract was awarded for GPS assisted precision guided munitions, Northrop, one of the competitors was already having their "GAM" used on the B-2. The B-2 dropped Northrop "GAMs" before the Boeing product. Boeing later won the full contract. Also according to that source, the GBU-37 was the first "bunker buster" munition to be used with the aircraft. The Wiki article mentions GBU-28. GBU-28 info here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/gbu-28.htm If it mentions that, it should also mention GBU-37. As GBU-28 has laser seaking ability ( a Paveway seeker on the nose ) a B-2 would either have to have the target "buddy lased" by another source as the B-2 has no laser ability like a LANTIRN/MANTIRN, LITENING, SNIPER or similar. One source ( already mentioned in the external links of the Wiki Article: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/systems/b-2.htm Mentions "Enhanced" Paveway... EGBU-28. ( EGBU-28 info: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/gbu-28e.htm )There is a difference. GBU-28 is laser seeking only. The "E" for "Enhanced Paveways" have a dual use option added to them where upon your choice, you can have them reach their target via GPS/INS assist similar to JDAM if needed, or a combination of GPS/INS and laser seeking terminal. The original laser seeking-only GBU-28 ( someone correct me ) was first dropped by the F-111 in combat ( Desert Storm ). And later with the F-15E ( Allied Force ). So I would be suprised if GBU-28s were common with the Whiteman crowd. The original GBU-28s were crude affairs produced quickly from old 8" artillery barrels. Newer ones are produced to spec. A public consumption news piece I saw right before OIF 2003 where Greta Van Sustern ( FoxNews ) did a feature on Whiteman, it clearly showed in the tour, GBU-37 and JDAM GBU-31 series ( Mk84 or BLU-109 2000lb. mated to JDAM kit ) on display. This would lead me to believe that at that time GBU-37 (GPS/INS)( someone correct me ) was the bunker buster of choice with the B-2. The EGBU-28 source above mentions that the EGBU-28 will replace the GBU-37. Unfortunately, I don't think we will have any munitions specialists or aircrew/planners from Whiteman that would be willing to speak on such a thing. It is my opinion that if you are going to mention the 28 it should read EGBU-28 and not GBU-28. This source mentions additional useful things not mentioned in the USAF source at the bottom of the Wiki article: http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/b2/ Just some thoughts I had. I will leave it for the original authors of this Wiki article to consider.6 November 2006 ( ELP )

Other

Paul Tibbets ( of Enola Gay fame ) grandson was ( or still is? ) a B-2 pilot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tibbets 6 November 2006 ( ELP )

"Informal names"

Are "Informal names" of individual aircraft really relevant to an encylclopedic article? I would have removed them myself, but I don't mess with tables, as I don't know anything about them. I can understand the official names being listed, as most USAF aircraft don't have individual official names, making them unique. - BillCJ 03:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that if these informal names are well-known then yes they should remain (e.g. VW Beetles are affectionately referred to as 'bugs' by many people). I'm not sure if the names are popular (knowing little about the craft) but if they are known by those names to enthusiasts I would deem them worthy of retention. ny156uk 23:59, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're missing my point. I'm not talking about a name like the "Warthog" for the A-10, but the chart list names for each indiviual B-2 in service. These are most likely names given to the planes by pilots or crew, and as such have now way to be verified. - BillCJ 00:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the informal names, as there are uncited and unverifiable. - BillCJ 00:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If we're talking about the "Spirit of" names (Missouri, California, Texas, Georgia, etc) no, they weren't given by pilots or crews, they were given by the AF and Northrop as part each aircraft's delivery ceremony. Some of the flight test aircraft had "nicknames" such as "Fire and Ice" and "Christine" (named after the Steven King novel abou the possessed car because it was such a cranky beast) which were given by the flight test folks at Edwards. - Alanz01 05:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again, my point is being missed. The chart lists those names under "Formal". There there isn't a direct source for those names, I have seen them in published sources, and there is probably a DOD site somewhere with the whole list. THose aren't the names being referred to here. - BillCJ 05:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed information about the B2 being tracked at british airshow

This information is incorrect. The B2 at the airshow was required to be in sight of british radar. A special package was attached to it which gave away its position.


Wheres the source for the specs?

I thought that the max speed of the B-2 was clasified. So could someone get a citation for the specs of the airplane?Fatdelear 19:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Im almost certain that the speed for the B-2 is classified since the military's website lists the speed as high sub-sonic, look for your selfhttp://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=82Fatdelear 16:16, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Possible photo for article

This is a photo I took of a B-2 Spirit as it taxied at the Darwin International Airport in the Norther Territory, Australia. If you look close you will see that it is AV-12, BuNos 89-0127, the Spirit of Kansas. Put it here and if you think it is worthy of the article then please add it. Cheers--Looper5920 12:13, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

* Image was deleted; removing redlink. — ERcheck (talk) 22:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

UFOs and the B-2

I think its worth noting that there has been some (fairly credible, really) speculation that a lot of UFO sightings were related to the B2 and other flying wing aircraft, and think it deserves a mention. Titanium Dragon 22:21, 24 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of B-2 Bombers

I removed the list. A recent change to the name of one of the entries in this table made me aware that the list was added with no citation or discussion, so we have no way of knowing if any of these names are correct. The table is below in case someone can verify and cite the list. --Chuck Sirloin 20:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Designation Tail # Formal name
AV-1 82-1066 Spirit of America
AV-2 82-1067 Spirit of Arizona
AV-3 82-1068 Spirit of New York
AV-4 82-1069 Spirit of Indiana
AV-5 82-1070 Spirit of Ohio
AV-6 82-1071 Spirit of Mississippi
AV-7 88-0328 Spirit of Texas
AV-8 88-0329 Spirit of Missouri
AV-9 88-0330 Spirit of California
AV-10 88-0331 Spirit of South Carolina
AV-11 88-0332 Spirit of Washington
AV-12 89-0127 Spirit of Kansas
AV-13 89-0128 Spirit of Nebraska
AV-14 89-0129 Spirit of Georgia
AV-15 90-0040 Spirit of Alaska
AV-16 90-0041 Spirit of Hawaii
AV-17 92-0700 Spirit of Florida"
AV-18 93-1085 Spirit of Oklahoma
AV-19 93-1086 Spirit of Kitty Hawk
AV-20 93-1087 Spirit of Pennsylvania
AV-21 93-1088 Spirit of Louisiana
AV-22–AV-135 cancelled
Looks like that change was vandalism, but you are right, we have no way to tell. It used to have a list of "informal" names, but I removed that awhile back as being totally unverifiable (see discussion above). A Google search turned up several individual names, usually being named in delivery ceremonies, so these are official names sanctioned by the USAF. However, I could find no single list of all the names, except on the Wikipedia mirror sites. Hopefully someone else can find a verifiable source, as these names are often used in news reports. - BillCJ 21:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Here's the list you are looking for, but I'm not sure what the numbers on the left are. They clearly aren't tail numbers, but might be the serial number of the airframe that the manufacturer gave it? http://www.uswarplanes.net/b2.html . In addition, I'd like to say that the names of each of the bombers personalizes them somewhat and IMHO adds to the article. BQZip01 22:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am glad that you found a list like that, but because that page shows no source information it is not a verifiable source. For all we know, the list on that page came from this article. We need a better WP:VER source than that. --Chuck Sirloin 23:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
FAS.ORG has a list near the bottom of its B-2 page, along with some explanations for the names. They appear to have corroborated the names with Whiteman AFB in particular, but do not list a source as such. They also list the "informal" names, so FAS is probably the source for the original list here, as it also included the infomal names. I would accept this source as being verification of the official names and the numbers, as these are assigned by the USAF. Any informal names should not be listed, as these are just crew nicknames, and will change as crews change.
We could restore the chart, use FAS as the source, but include a {{verify source}} tag to show that further verification is needed. Would this be acceptable? - BillCJ 23:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, since that's most of us, and BQZip seemed in favor of it, I'm re-adding it with the source and tag. - BillCJ 04:32, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

governor quote

it is true, it's taken from a children's book called Flight by Richard Platt published by DK. the isbn is 1-4053-0834-6. why dont you think it adds anything? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.136.47.14 (talk) 19:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

and i just googled the quote and came up with www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/r/rodblagoje168294.html and there are others — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.47.14 (talk • contribs)

  • (edit conflict) First off, brainyquote.com is hardly a verifiable source since it does not list a source for the quote. Second, the quote itself is not true, its like $870 an ounce which is not 3 times the cost of gold. Plus, its just a sensationalist kind of quote meant to point out what a 'boondoggle' the stealth bomber is. Each one doesn't, as the article points out, actually cost $2.2bil, that is just the program cost when divided by the delivered number of frames. It includes MASSIVE development costs for the tech itself. --Chuck Sirloin 20:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

you say brainy quote isnt verifiable but i i got it from a book and the website kinda a remarkable that two identical quotes from the same guy were made up by some people who got bored. if that website isnt verifiable what is?? from two sources fucking A—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.151.73.249 (talk • contribs) 18:05, 26 April 2007.

Tone 'er down there hotrod, why are you getting so 'worked up' about this? brainyquote.com is not a verifiable source because it does not itself list any sources. Read WP:VER if you are having a hard time understanding the concept. If the children's book you found the quote in happened to have a bibliography that showed where quote came from then it would be verifiable as well, but I doubt that it does. AND in any case, it doesn't matter because it (as shown here in this discussion) is a stupid quote that doesn't add anything to the article. --Chuck Sirloin 23:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • About the cost: FYI, I've found that the best way to explain it to people who ask is "If they only made 21 Toyota Corollas, don't you think they'd run a few million dollars a pop, too?" --KNHaw (talk) 21:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ok chill. sheesh people get so worked up on the net.

Dude, for those of us who built the damn thing, this is a long running sore point. If people want to hold a rational argument about costs and benefits of the program (i.e. how many elementary schools could have been financed in lieu of the B-2), that's cool. But it's gonna bug anyone when something they worked on for years is slandered with that kind of inaccurate quote. Wouldn't you be irritated if someone made an outrageous diss of your school/town/favorite team? ("Hey, you know that Kobe Bryant is paid three times his weight in gold a year while children in LA go hungry?")
Besides, talk pages are the places where we're supposed to "get so worked up" (*GRIN*) --KNHaw (talk) 21:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If the B-2 were made of gold, I doubt it could fly. even if it could, it's range would be much shorter, and it'd be detectable by radar. Also, no manufacturer has any experience making gold airplanes, so there'd be a steep learning curve to make it. All that would probably mean the gold B-2s would actually cost a lot more than the real ones, esp since Congress wouldn't buy as many as 21 of a plane that hardly worked. The some governor would say, "Each Proposed B-2 Stealth bomber costs three times more than it would if every part of the plane were not made of gold." That's why we call it sensationalism: it sounds cute, but it's really meaningless nonsense. Remember, when a politician complains about how much money is spent on something, he doesn't mean the money should not have been spent. He just means it should have been spent on something else that he approves of! - BillCJ 23:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
BillCJ, you'd better watch any mention of the AAP (Auric Aircraft Project). I don't think anyone in this forum is cleared to know that Black helicopters are painted that way to conceal the fact that they're made of gold.
Wait... did I type that? Ooops...
--KNHaw (talk) 21:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Photographs

A B-2 Spirit dropping Mk.82 bombs in a 1994 training exercise off Pt. Mugu in the Pacific Ocean.

I came across this photograph of the B-2 bombing on the Live fire exercise article. I believe it would add to this article, but I do not know where to place it. I also feel that Image:20061027-6 v102706db-0153jpg-772v.jpg would be a good addition as it shows the scale of the B-2. Mehmet Karatay 07:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think all the poctures on this page should be featured. they are all just so spectacular --Chickenfeed9 16:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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