Jump to content

Talk:Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 76.102.190.6 (talk) at 15:27, 17 September 2007 (→‎GOA Report and Eurofighter Dogfight). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


BillCJ, whether you do or don't like 2003's Hulk, the F-22 is the main focus of multiple action scenes in that movie - one which happens to be a notable Hollywood film - and as such, unless there was a film in which it appeared earlier, Hulk is the F-22's debut in a Hollywood film. How that is "cruft" is beyond me.

Serious editors don't add or remove items because of whether or not we like the film. Please read the hidden sections in the text (which I've just updated), and read the links to the relevant sections in the WP:AIR and WP:MILHIST project page content guidelines. This section is not a list of every apperance, only the especially notable ones. And sources can be required to prove that notablility if an appearance is in question. Which this one is. - BillCJ 00:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
With the latest hubbub about the two items in this section, are these items to be restored? FWIW Bzuk 02:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC).[reply]
Personally, I'd rather they be left out. But, as I understand the current policies of Wikipedia, pop-culture references are not forbidden, though I am participating in efforts to get them banned. In the menatime, the consensus here was to include them, so that ought to be upheld. However, the admin who removed them is still holding to the view that they are not allowed under current policy. Given this, he'll probably just remove them again. But you're welcome to try to re-add it; I won't be interfering either way. - BillCJ 03:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"First prominent Hollywood debut." This is simply inaccurate and subjective. I had the same thought as the OP when I read this entry on the main page. IMHO, it should at least mention The Hulk, followed by Transformers. Seems like a silly spat to me. 216.160.102.166 18:49, 7 September 2007 (UTC)Happysomeone[reply]

Updated unit cost

I updated the unit cost in the Infobox. This is from FY 2008/2009 Budget Estimates, which lists $157.7 million on page 1-13 (pg. 51 in file). See if I missed something. I expected the numbers to be closer to last year's $120M. -Fnlayson 17:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It says 137 on that page, not 157. And also, that is not the "True Unit Cost", at least "true" as in comparable to other aircraft. You should add the Airframe, engine, and avionics costs per aircraft to get a "unit cost" that is comparable to what other aircraft are. Other aircraft's unit costs are calculated in this way. This comes out to $133 million as seen in that budget report. This is what was done for the previous $120million cost as well. Note, the increase in cost is mainly due to the lowering of the amount of aircraft being produced per year. 24 F-22s were being built per year before, but only 20 per year are being built from now on, so this rises total unit cost.129.82.86.201 09:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

...........................Thats BS, most of the F-22 (92) was bought at a price of 168M - you have found the lowest pricetag you could on that page an its for 20 planes only - do average cost and you get around 165. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.61.29.162 (talk) 13:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Verifiable sources

Bill CJ You "Reverted unsourced, good-faith additions by 90.240.101.73" on the F-22, on the basis that they were not from a verifiable source. You reverted to a form of words that was plainly, demonstrably wrong, which is witless - even if there was a verifiable source, and you reverted to something that gave a false, misleading impression.

The points at issue were connected with the F-22's capability in the SEAD, EW and AWACS roles.

Because of its sensor capabilities, F-22 does have POTENTIAL in these roles, but this potential is limited by the aircraft's inability to transmit any sensor data to other platforms, except by voice radio. The Raptor pilot can therefore report by radio, but this falls far short of a genuine AWACS or ISTAR capability.

The existing IFDL (Intra Flight Data Link) is limited to communicating with other Raptors, and its Link 16 capability is austere (text messages only) and Receive Only.

This was confirmed by Larry Lawson, the F-22 Programme Manager in his presentation at the Paris Air Show, and was reported in Flight Daily News. It was also confirmed by Colonel Sutter, Chief of ACC/A8F, 5th Generation Fighter Division, and can be inferred from the Air Force Link article at http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123024639

In answer to the question: Is it true that the F-22 intraflight datalink cannot communicate with other tactical platforms, AWACS, Rivet Joint JSTARS, etc? (…..thereby limiting F-22 pilots to voice radio?) Is an F-22 pilot limited to voice radio?

Sutter answered: Currently, F-22s link with each other but do not link with other platforms except thru voice radio.

Nor is the F-22's APG-77 being given a high bandwidth transmission capability. This was explicitely denied by Lawson, though it remains an unfunded future option, alongside Link 16 TX/RX, and TTNT.

90.240.101.73 13:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My full comment was: Reverted unsourced, good-faith additions by 90.240.101.73; as given, that is not a verifiable source; please discusss on Talk Pgae before re-adding, and we'll see what can be done.
You have to understand that anyone can claim anything - what matters is that the sources be verifiable by other editors. I said "good-faith" for a specific reasone, because I believe you really were at the conferece/meeting, and heard the report yourself. The problem is that simply stating that is not sufficient for sourcing. Please read WP:ATTR and WP:CITE for further information on Wikipedias policies on sourcing. We (the regular editors of this article) will be happy to help you with the particulars of getting the source info into the text.
There are several ways you can go about citing and sourcing what you heard. If you can find a published (print or online) transcript of the meeting, that would suffice. If that is not available, there may be published coverage of the meeting, and you can reference what is in those sources.
As to what is there now, if you believe it is inaccurate, there are several ways to handle that.
  1. Remove it.
  2. Tag it
You can tag it with {{citation needed}}, {{verify source}}, or {{dubious}}. There are other tags available, but they are the ones I usually use. - BillCJ 15:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to jump in here... without a DL the F-22 is absolutely useless in any of the roles under discussion. Even with the addition of a good DL, the most one can expect the F-22 to do is act as a sort of remote sensor suite that would forward intel back to a real platform. I don't expect anyone here would argue that we might have F-22 pilots directing an air war while in the cockpit.
The extremely broad language used in the body of the article means that any aircraft with a radar could be used, it may as well be a F-15, or a Mosquito for that matter. I don't see claims in those articles suggesting this will happen though.
So unless there is some good evidence that these sorts of upgrades will be made, I'd prefer to see the entire section removed. And frankly, I trust AvLeak exactly as far as I can throw it. While it may be true that statements at a meeting cannot be used for CITE I'd still say they trump AvLeak. IE, in this case we have a rather dubious claim from AvLeak that I simply don't believe, countered by direct evidence to the contrary. Although it is reasonable to suggest that the direct evidence cannot be included due to its "format", that just argues for the entire section being removed, IMHO.
Maury 16:06, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BillCJ, whether you do or don't like 2003's Hulk, the F-22 is the main focus of multiple action scenes in that movie - one which happens to be a notable Hollywood film - and as such, unless there was a film in which it appeared earlier, Hulk is the F-22's debut in a Hollywood film. How that is "cruft" is beyond me.

Serious editors don't add or remove items because of whether or not we like the film. Please read the hidden sections in the text (which I've just updated), and read the links to the relevant sections in the WP:AIR and WP:MILHIST project page content guidelines. This section is not a list of every apperance, only the especially notable ones. And sources can be required to prove that notablility if an appearance is in question. Which this one is. - BillCJ 00:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
With the latest hubbub about the two items in this section, are these items to be restored? FWIW Bzuk 02:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC).[reply]
Personally, I'd rather they be left out. But, as I understand the current policies of Wikipedia, pop-culture references are not forbidden, though I am participating in efforts to get them banned. In the menatime, the consensus here was to include them, so that ought to be upheld. However, the admin who removed them is still holding to the view that they are not allowed under current policy. Given this, he'll probably just remove them again. But you're welcome to try to re-add it; I won't be interfering either way. - BillCJ 03:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

After being in place for a lengthy period of time, the following entry was recently removed: "The F-22 has been featured in numerous books, such as Tom Clancy's Debt of Honor (1994) and Clive Cussler's Dark Watch (2005). In doing a brief google search, 910 matches were made on Tom Clancy and F-22 and 558 matches of Clive Cussler and F-22. Here are specific references: Information Warfare and Deterrence Appendix C. Fundamentals of Information Warfare: An Airman's View and Dark Watch book review . I will replace this item with references in the near future. FWIW Bzuk 20:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC).[reply]

The Google test doesn't work (WP:GOOG). Forgive me, but it seems you didn't actually read the links you provided. The former makes reference to both Tom Clancy and the F-22, but not at the same time. The latter link is a forum post, and doesn't seem to mention either author or their books. --Eyrian 20:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Tom Clancy has also featured the F-22 in his 2004 Fighter Wing which in the Book Review describes: "including cutting-edge information on the F-22 and the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter." FWIW Bzuk 00:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC).[reply]
Are you sure we're reading the same review? I find no mention of Clancy, Fighter Wing, or any fiction at all in the review you've linked. --Eyrian 00:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Here's a site with a mention of Tom Clancy's books: Amazon reviews. FWIW Bzuk 00:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC).[reply]
Amazon is a store site and, as such, can't be used as a reference. -- JediLofty User ¦ Talk 10:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And another: Air Combat where Fighter Wing is referenced. FWIW Bzuk 11:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC).[reply]

your missing the point, transformers is not the first or only pop culture refrence, putting it in there by itself is just sillyHINSON1 05:54, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, statements restored and references cited. FWIW Bzuk 18:31, 19 August 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Exceptionally long testing period

Why did this aircraft take 20 years to enter operational service? That's kind of bizarre for any aircraft type. The basic design dates to the late 1980s. I wonder if there are technology obsolecence issues that might come into play. -Rolypolyman 02:33, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

you must have missed the article about the wi-fi which would cost 10,000 a month if it was comcast...theres nothing even approaching it commercially available-HINSON1 05:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Command & Conquer Generals

The F-22 Jet is featured on the Command & Conquer Generals PC game as the American Raptor Jet, the main air unit for the American side. Should this be added to the popular culture section? Matty B 1000 16:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't think so; it's not really notable. Parsecboy 16:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

F-22's in Canada

I saw at least 2 F-22 in an airshow over Toronto, Canada today. So is this the first airshow their featured in outside of the United States. Friday August 31st, 2007. 1:05 PM EST.

GOA Report and Eurofighter Dogfight

There has been a user spamming info in F-22 videos, such as this one http://youtube.com/watch?v=fBUmRd4hKlg and used a source that a Eurofighter beat an F-22 in a mock digfight. I've actually heard rumors about this happening long before:

"The Eurofighter have already beaten the F22 - take this source:

"international AIR POWER REVIEW" - year 2006, issue 20, page 45. - ISNB: 1-880588-91-9 (casebound) or ISBN: 1473-9917.

"Two RAF Typhoons deployed to the USA for OEU trails work have been flying against the F-22 at NAS China Lake. There was little suprise that the Typhoon, with its world-class agility and high off-boresight missile capability was able to dominate "Within Visual Range" flight.."

He has also been spreading around info, using the US Congress GOA report as a source, saying that the F-22 is severely flawed and has even made a video into it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIvgBbXKL5E

Now I'm wondering, how much of this stuff is actually true? Tsurugi 10:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He was getting quotes from several other GOA reports from different years as well. Tsurugi 11:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to what I could find online, the relevant quote from the source reads, "During evaluations and trials at NAS China Lake last year two Typhoons were pitched against F-22s. The Typhoons excelled in close range combat with the F-22s, but surprised everybody by locking on to the F-22s before the F-22s could get a lock-on on the Typhoons during BVR trials as well." No context, such as whether this was reported by the source as a rumor or a solid source, nor what the rules of engagement might have been (e.g., a non-jamming environment, whether it was just a ‘BVR rodeo’ with no advantage taken of the Raptor’s BVR strengths, etc.). Since the F-22 is optimized for BVR combat, I wouldn’t consider it to be too surprising that the Typhoon – designed with a stronger emphasis on dogfighting maneuverability – could get a first lock-on in WVR. A very powerful radar at close range could detect an extremely stealthy airplane like the F-22. Low RCS means it takes much more radar power at a given range to detect it, so significant power at short range could have the same effect. As for maneuver performance, even if the F-22 dominated 90% of the performance envelope with respect to the Eurofighter (about which I have no idea) and the Typhoon’s pilot managed to maneuver his opponent into the 10% where the Typhoon has the upper hand, well then, that’s what a well-trained, top-notch pilot tries to do.
Such a snippet – of unknown reliability – certainly doesn’t support the recent POV vandalisms that the Raptor is “easy to shoot down.” Nor does much of anything in the 1999 GAO report on the YF-22 prototype development retain any relevance to today’s operational production F-22. Until something more substantive is offered and sourced, I believe that reverting such POV fluff, as our editors have been doing, remains the right thing to continue to do. Askari Mark (Talk) 22:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The report that the guy was drawing much of his information from was primarily in this more recent March 2007 GAO report. type in "88" to go that F-22 page. What about the info in there? Have any of those issues in that report been resolved yet, such as the "mean time between maintenance" issue? I know the SRP isn't done. http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07406sp.pdf Tsurugi 16:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since this particular GAO publication is so recent, it is much more appropriate to cite. However, two-page assessments like these don’t tend to include much context, unlike the more detailed, program-specific evaluations the GAO produces from time-to-time; also these latter publications also provide room for the owning service to respond to key points as to whether or not they concur with its findings. GAO findings always tend to always sound “cataclysmic” or nearly so to readers with little understanding of how complex, advanced technology programs are developed. For one thing, it needs to be kept in mind that the GAO criticizes anything that isn’t “low-risk” as “immature”; the typical standard seems to follow a logic along the lines of “Buggy whips are ‘mature’; advanced technologies are not – until everybody else is already using them.” Their findings are inevitably subjective; in fact, this is the first time I’ve seen them use a non-arbitrary scale like the one in Appendix III for evaluating military aerospace technologies, but then they mis-apply it as well. Since the F-22 entered service in December 2005, it was essentially Technology Readiness Level 8 (not 7) by the time they began their investigations. Moreover, if every system, subsystem and component were individually tested to the “realism” standard required for Level 7, the aircraft cost would probably grow by at least an order of magnitude.
As the GAO correctly points out, the three critical technologies needed for the modernization program as it was configured in 2003 were “mature”; the three new critical technologies were added later to the modernization program as desirable to achieve, essentially, Technology Readiness Level 9, if you will. The whole purpose of adding them was to “mature” them. How the GAO can say, “Overall technology maturity is consequently lower now than when the modernization effort began” is quite beyond me. In any case, given their nature, I doubt that whatever progress made on the three identified technologies will be broadly reported.
  • The reliability and maintainability issue is a legitimate one – and not uncommon in early production aircraft. To some degree it’s also due to ironing out the kinks in the spare parts flow. The fault isolation software and the thermal management systems are part of this issue, and the former may have been resolved by now. From what I’ve read, the F-22’s reliability has improved considerably, but I don’t know how well it is progressing toward making its 100,000 flying-hour goal in 2010, so I don’t know how much of an issue it is.
  • The Structural Retrofit Program (SRP) is under way, although other sources report that only 41 aircraft need the modification. The two fatigue problems aren’t likely to make the plane unsafe to fly anytime soon, but rather shorten its overall expected service life. The USAF doesn’t appear to think either of them is urgent.
The way I read it, these are normal problems for a “juvenile” high-technology, highly complex fighter design and it sounds like all of them should be settled by 2010. In the grand scheme of things, the GAO’s findings are minor and being dealt with. More apropos and important are the issues that have long been raised about whether or not the design approach employed on the F-22 are the best-suited for the modern and future missions it will be called upon to perform. If it works perfectly but is irrelevant, it doesn’t matter much. Askari Mark (Talk) 03:03, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In your POV, Askari Mark, what do you think about the statements the user named Zeptocomp is saying about the F-22 on this forum? (his comments are in yellow) http://youtube.com/watch?v=vIvgBbXKL5E Is he making a good argument? Also, here is a site with another bunch of articles that claim supposed Eurofighter > F-22 dogfights that he cites from. The quotes are in the gray boxes [1]. In addition, what exactly is "mean time between maintainance"? I need some understanding about that. It can't be the amount of time where a plane can fly and has to land for maintainance (like the user is saying). Tsurugi 20:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh okay. Now i understand. What about my other questions? Tsurugi 21:20, 5 September 2007 (PT)

ADDING EUROFIGHTER DOGFIGHT TO PERFORMANCE I have added the Eurofighter Dogfight to performance... I then saw the discussions here. I don't agree with removing this reference (and I am not the guy you claimed to be responsible for the Utube and spams). The eurofighter engagement happened, it is a very reliable source and well documented. If these comparisons wouldn't have been fair, the USAF would have hardly agreed to send their F-22. So citing theoretical arguments to remove a real world engagement backed up with sources is not appropriate. Especially since you claim to not know the Eurofighter. At the end lets list the engagements that took place in real world and leave the speculations and simulations and your paper calculations on the side.

Air Show - Toronto Picture

The Raptor at the The Canadian International Air Show, Toronto, Ontario, 2007

The F-22 Raptor flown by an international landmark--the CN Tower--during its first public demonstration outside of the United States on the long weekend of September 1-3, 2007. This is undeniable an historic event. The event was captured on the picture (right). Some wikipedia contributors insist in removing the picture from the main article, their objection being that the picture is low quality. Truly, this is why this picture is published under the "Trade Show" heading: it is meant to be a record of a life event, not a glossy sales brochure. The article shows plenty of other quality pictures of the aircraft. If someone has a better quality picture to illustrate the subject event, be my guest and replace it. Until then, this picture may be the best available to illustrate that historic event.

Before someone just single-mindedly reject someone else's contribution, at least first take a breather, write up your thoughts in this "talk" section, then let's see toghether what is best for this publication.--JLdesAlpins 23:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the others. The F-22 is too small in that image to tell what it is. Therefore, I don't see it adding anything to this article. For an air show article, it would be OK, I think. -Fnlayson 23:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The F-22 being such a young aircraft, there is no doubt that it will be shown in countless airshows for years to come. Do you think we shoud create a separate page dedicated to its airshow appearances?--JLdesAlpins 23:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the pic. Please don't re-add it without a consensus to do so. In addition, I've never been happy with the "Air Show" section in this article, so I've removed that too. What other fighter article on Wkipedia even has one? It smacks of Original Research, even if the individual items are sourced. I don't think the section is very relevant overall, and certainly an article on F-22 airshow appearences would be a bad idea. I agree with Fnlayson (Jeff) that Canadian International Air Show would be a more appropriate place for such a pic, tho I agree with the original deleter of the pic that this one is poor quality. As such, it probably should not be used at all. - BillCJ 23:31, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Now I would like to make a case for retaining at least a mention of the F-22 Air Show Demonstration Team since this is a legitimate public demonstration of the aircraft. I do agree that the section itself was too esoteric and could be deleted. As to retaining the above photo, even blowing it up showed only a tiny blurred image. I have much better F-22 photos that show it in air shows. FWIW Bzuk 01:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC).[reply]
As long as it has the proper sources (which BZuk always includes!), I've no problem with that. - BillCJ 01:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A paragraph on air shows [tour] including this one is a good idea. Here's one article about starting air shows in May.Raptor Puts on the Ritz -Fnlayson 01:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Given its technological sensitivity, its appearance at airshows is actually rather notable. I agree that a single para. on the appearance of the F-22 in its first domestic and foreign airshows is a worthwhile addition. Askari Mark (Talk) 15:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article currently reads: In 2007, tests carried out by Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, and L-3 Communications enabled the AESA system of a Raptor to act like a WiFi access point, able to transmit data at 548 Megabit/sec and receive at Gigabit speed, far faster than the current Link 16 system used by US and allied aircraft, which transfers data at just over 1 Megabit/sec. However, the Link 16 page claims a data rate of 31.6kbits to 115.2kbits/sec, about a tenth of that. The higher rate comes unsourced from an article at The Register, which is generally slightly less accurate than reading sheep entrails. Anyone have a good source for the data rate of Link 16? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaleja (talk • contribs) 18:54, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor&oldid=158509833"