Talk:David Petraeus

See BLPDispute & BLPSources

General

Has Petraeus been promoted to General (4-star), upon his Senate confirmation as US forces commander in Iraq? GoodDay 22:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes. - Thaimoss 02:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Then, I'll make the edit at his article. Thanks. GoodDay 02:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Did you got a source for that promotion? --GrummelJS 20:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Did I read this right, he had no combat time for 29 years; yet bush put him in charge of IRAQ ! father_bill —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Father bill (talk • contribs) 03:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

Father bill, General Petraeus served in combat during Operation Iraqi Freedom as commander of the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault). He also served there in a liaison capacity helping train Iraq security personnel. Both jobs are considered combat jobs, and both were completed whilst being a General Officer.--SOCL 06:48, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Does anybody else have a serious problem with the use of the phrase "on the other hand" in the second sentence of the second paragraph in the introduction? The first sentence of said paragraph describes him as brilliant, but "on the other hand" he's also political? Kind of a non-sequitur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.227.67.109 (talk) 13:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

PEOPLE in the know know that a General is a four star and a star above lieutenant general. But to a lay audience a General is also a general title for well, generals. I"d like to see his rank listed as "General(four-star)" so somebody wouldn't have to wade thru the whole article to find it. Petraeus and Fallon have the same rank- that's not good.Godspeed John Glenn! Will 10:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Not yet promoted

Current congressional law states that general officers do not receive their promotion until they have arrived at their command - hence, LTG Petraeus will not receive his 4th star within a week or two when he arrives in Iraq. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cav Tanker (talk • contribs) 23:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

It is simply incorrect, factually, to say that Petraeus was too late in 1970 to see combat in Vietnam. There were big battles in 1970! Combat in Vietnam continued until March 31, 1973, the end of combat operations.

I am a Vietnam veteran, but anybody can look this up and confirm that what I am saying is accurate.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.44.145.246 (talk • contribs) 23:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

It looks like the only content which is permitted for Petraeus is unqualified praise. I don't have anything against the guy, but it is a fact that he could have served in Vietnam with 2.7 million of the rest of us, but Petraeus elected to remain safe in a military academy. Why must this simple truth be hidden from his biography? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.44.151.35 (talk) 19:40:46, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

Let me get this straight. A guy who elected in 1970 (before the war was over) to go to West Point, where cadets were guaranteed to go in the army, was shirking his duty, just sitting out the war while others fought? And then he chose to be branched infantry (he must have felt safe doing this because he probably thought Vietnam was the last war America would ever fight). Actually, I guess the entire class of 1974 was nothing but a bunch of cowards, eh? Or for that matter, every West Point class is just trying to avoid the military for 4 more years, hoping whatever war is occuring at the time will end before they get commissioned. Would that sum up your opinion? Quit trolling.--Nobunaga24 22:22, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Nobunaga24 has it right. A person who at 18 enters West Point in 1970 would have probably been eligible to see service in Vietnam in late 1974, early 1975 at the absolute earliest. By the time Petraeus would have graduated in 1974, taken the post-graduation 60 days leave, attended the Infantry Officer Basic Course, Ranger School, Airborne and met what was then a policy of no deployment to a combat zone for a platoon leader before 4 months as a minimum in a troop unit, it easy to see that late winter, early sprng, 1975 would have been the earliest he could have gotten there, without going straight out of High School. Correct me if I am wrong, but by early 1975 we were "out" of Vietnam (a whole different question if that as smart or not). To suggest that he shirked his "duty" in some way because of he instead attended West Point is absurd. The logical assumption one can make from the unsigned earlier comment is that everyone who entered into a degree program leading to commissioning without service in Vietnam before that is someone who was seeking safety. Does that pass any make sense test at all? If it does illuminate us. However, I would offer a view that given the uncertainity of the future and his willingness to serve as an infantryman for his entire career suggests quite the opposite of what it seems to suggest to our unsigned contributor. 67.142.130.41 13:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC) Mantuan

nickname?

Need to cite a source about the nickname if it is going to be included. Cav Tanker 23:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

-Last I checked his nickname was "Eagle Six" off a cited quote that was on this page. Said quote and the story it was a part has edited from the section.

"Eagle 6" is the term of the Division Commander for the 101st Airborne Division, likewise, Petraeus was also "Devil 6" of the 1st Brigade, 82nd Airborne Division. Cav Tanker is refering to his nickname of "Peaches". To my knowledge, the earliest reference of this nickname can be found in the United States Military Academy's 1974 Howitzer (Yearbook) where it mentions it both on his company photograph and individual photo section.

--Signaleer 06:57, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

• I assume the request for sources is for the nickname Peaches. It has multiple sources. General Petraeus Remembers His Hometown, Village of Cornwall-on-Hudson, News, Sep. 21, 2007. In the Company of Soldiers: A Chronicle of Combat, By Rick Atkinson, p. 36, Owl Books. Commander of Multinational Force in Iraq Began to Forge His Leadership Skills in Little League, Little League Online, Feb. 8, 2007. However, the origin of the nickname needs better sourcing. Some sources have it that it had its origins in the difficulty his childhood peers had in pronouncing his name while others cite unnamed sources alleging connotations convenient to the sources' agenda. The nickname while true is used by Petraeus's opponents to imply demeaning connotations which are not yet properly sourced.--JoeFriday ^(talk) 20:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Peaches Tightens the Girdle, Maureen Dowd, NYT Columnist, Sep 12, 2007. Godspeed John Glenn! Will 12:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Greek?

I heard he was Greek. His name sure sounds like a Greek nameWillgfass2 20:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

• According to his son--my dear friend--either their grandfather or great grandfather changed the family name from Peterson to Petraeus in order to give it a more "classical" feel.--SOCL 00:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I read he has a Dutch father but Petraeus does not sound Dutch and the name of his father Sixtus does not sound Dutch either or was his fathers name Sixtus Petraeus ? very confusing V8rik 21:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Mystery solved: his father was called Sixtus Petraeus and this family name does occur in the netherlands : http://www.familienaam.nl/?name=petraeus (based on the telephone directory) V8rik 21:26, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Petraeus Doctrine

The discussion under this heading has been ARCHIVED.--JoeFriday ^(talk) 22:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment by IP editor

The discussion under this heading has been ARCHIVED.--JoeFriday ^(talk) 22:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

One Correction

The discussion under this heading has been ARCHIVED.--JoeFriday ^(talk) 22:48, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

1991 injury

The discussion under this heading has been ARCHIVED.--JoeFriday ^(talk) 22:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Birth place?

Where was General Petraeus born? The article does not make this clear. Thanks. 128.119.149.96 05:10, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Ted Westhusing

I think somebody should summarize the story of Colonel Theodore S. Westhusing for the Petraeus article. I'd do it myself but must save my writing energy for something else this week... JDG 16:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Political General?

There are multiple instances of Petraeus being described as political (ex. "the most political general since Douglas MacArthur") in the intro, but absolutly nothing to back this up in the main article. I think this should go if nobody can back it up with fact. At the very least, the quote about him being the most political general since MacArthur should go, as it is simply not true. Anybody else remember Wesley Clark? That guy was posturing politically all the way back in the 90's when he was Supreme Allied Commander (of NATO). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.50.151.8 (talk) 07:26, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

The "most political" quote was made by Lawrence Korb who writes for the Center for American Progress a left-wing organization run by Hillary Clinton and funded by George Soros and which is campaigning for gays in the military and muslims in europe and which founded Media Matters for America another leftist disinformation front. Such organizations are not reliable sources. JoeFriday 02:26, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you are misunderstanding the WP:NPOV policy, as well as the way the WP:reliable sources policy is applied. WP:NPOV states that: "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources)". In other words, the viewpoint doesn't have to be articulated by a reliable source - it has to be published by a reliable source. It is the publishing by a reliable source that makes the viewpoint significant. It doesn't matter whether the viewpoint is 'left-wing' or 'right-wing'. What matters is that a reliable source considered that viewpoint significant enough to publish it. So when The Sunday Times - definately a WP:Reliable source, publishes an article that includes a quote from a former Reagan administration Defense official who now works at a Democratic think tank - that is a significant point of view. Dlabtot 06:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Friday. While the article should include criticism, it should represent the form of that criticism fairly and objectively. Revolutionaryluddite 02:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Neutral Point of View

The intro seems to contain nothing but praise, while the section on 2007 seems to contain very little of the criticism that has been recently leveled against him. I don't think this article presents a neutral point of view. --The Wild Falcon 18:20, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the below. People don't like the results he reported on and feel that since they indicated progress, he was a "betrayer." As for the praise that cites the medals he's received, nothing about really needs to be changed either. The insight to his accomplishments and valor are part of what any profile of a military commander is about.

The problem there is that there hasn't been a whole lot of factual dispute, just shallow name-calling (e.g., the "General Betray-Us" ad) and the like.

I would note the LA Times article linked to here contains a facutal error, confusing the report on the surge that the administration agreed to deliver to Congress (which they wrote) with Petraeus' testimony; the two are completely different entities. Jdb1972 20:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

If the criticism were to be included, then it stands to reason that the motivations of those criticizing him be mentioned also. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.213.13.148 (talk) 22:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

And the motivations of the General and his boss on Pennsylvania Avenue as well? Or is this sort of analysis of motivation only for people of certain political persuasions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.15.37.6 (talk) 00:42, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The issue is facts versus accusations. People's motivations can only be presumed from their own statements, their job description, or common knowledge. It can be presumed that both presidents and generals want a military campaign to succeed and to be perceived as succeeding. It can be presumed that anti-war activists want a military campaign to be cut short and/or perceived as unsuccessful. Whether either side has additional nefarious motives or is knowingly dishonest necessitates additional evidence. For most, additional motives are unnecessary to form a strong feeling for one and against the other. JoeFriday 03:29, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

First ever wiki post by me, so tell me if I do something wrong, but it's not fair to say anti-war activists want a military campaign to be cut short or perceived as unsuccessful. Moreover, it is not just anti-war activists that are criticizing him. His rift with CENTCOM commander Adm. Fallon is well known. According to IPS, Fallon considers Petraeus to be "an a**-kissing little chickensh*t" (http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=39235). If you include the quote from Gen. Barry McCaffrey in the intro, you should include the one from Fallon, Petraeus' superior. Bbrown8370 23:19, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Any impartial observer can easily qualify moveon as an anti-war organization simply from the behavior it has exhibited with regards to the military. You dream if you think otherwise. I could post source after source after source for the next week to back that up. McCaffrey's comments are in regards to Petraeus ability as a general, not to his personality, so Fallon's comment would be a violation of NPOV. This is an article to inform of the facts about Petraeus, not a bash fast or a glorification. A.S. Williams 01:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

MoveOn is againt US involvement in the current Iraq war, not all war. Opposition to the Iraq war is also not their defining characteristic. There are plenty of other progressive causes for which they advocate. The second paragraph was added back in with both glorifying and bashing comments. Neither seem like they should be included in the article (and I first brought up the bashing comments in the talk page). They are points of view from people in the military. Also, the "widely regarded" sounds like weasel words (it is sourced by a News Corp. publication as well). I think this paragraph is beyond salvaging, and should be removed. Nothing significant is added to the article as a whole by this paragraph. Bbrown8370 03:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Again, the first comment is from a military authority on military science, not a comment on Petraeus as a person. I am sorry you cannot see the difference. I will continue to undo your revisions until you can come up with a legitimate reasoning. Also sign your comments.A.S. Williams 01:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The source you list just has McCaffrey using the adjective "brilliant" to describe Petraeus once. That was clearly not the focus of the source. It was a miniscule detail of the source. Furthermore, the context of the source is a testimony to a senate committee. Later in the one paragraph that Petraeus is mentioned (one time out of 6 pages), McCaffrey is advocating for more time and space (and money!) from the committee. This puts him in the bias position of needing Petraeus to look good in order to secure said money. It is laughable that this source is being portrayed as a military authority rating Petraeus' knowledge of military science as brilliant. Furthermore, if you don't like the Fallon quote because it is about his personality, there are plenty of quotes in the article that show Fallon criticizing Petraeus' military knowledge. Keep in mind that Fallon's position in the chain of command in relation to Petraeus. Here are some non-personality quotes you might want to use. "Fallon's derision toward Petraeus reflected both the CENTCOM commander's personal distaste for Petraeus's style of operating and their fundamental policy differences over Iraq" "Fallon was strongly opposed to Petraeus's role as pitch man for the surge policy in Iraq adopted by Bush in December as putting his own interests ahead of a sound military posture in the Middle East and Southwest Asia" I'd that that his commanding officer thinking he puts his own interests ahead of sound military posture should be included if you're going to include the McCaffrey comment. Bbrown8370 03:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The quote you continually reinsert is not suitable for a biography and is more your personal political opinion about Petraeus. Use a different one that properly disagrees with his military abilities or don't use anything at all. I don't know how much clearer I can make this for you.A.S. Williams 03:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Personally I think the 'chickenshit' comment is the most significant insight we have into Fallon's view of Petraeus, but if you object to its inclusion why don you try re-write, including both viewpoints but a different quote. Let's work towards consensus. Dlabtot 03:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Fallon's view is not the proper counterweight to McCaffrey's view. It is like Person A saying "Barry Bonds has brilliant baseball acumen" and Person B saying "Barry Bonds is an asshole." One does not follow the other. I am not going to say, let's keep both because both are not two sides of the same coin. If you can find someone (a military source would be advisable) saying that Petraeus is not brilliant then please insert it. Until that point, I will continually remove the "chickenshit" comment every time I log on to this page.A.S. Williams 03:38, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, I acknowledge your stated refusal to try to work towards consensus. I'll go ahead and re-write myself, using a different quote. Dlabtot 03:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't be a smartaleck. Read my response to Bbrown8370 below.A.S. Williams 03:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I have not inserted the line in the article. I think the whole paragraph should be removed. The quote is not my personal political opinion. It is his commanding officer's (Adm Fallon's) opinion. I think Dlabtot is doing the inserting. I only sourced the article on this talk page. I also removed the whole paragraph once. Please don't accuse me of adding things to the article that I didn't add. This article has a disputed neutrality because, among other reasons, it includes an obscure positive quote by McCaffrey, but ignores an entire negative article concerning Fallon's view of him. The whole paragraph does not add to the article. If you want to include positive representations of him by military figures, please source something that actually talks about how/why the source thinks Petraeus should be considered "brilliant." Bbrown8370 03:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

My apologies for confusing you with someone else. Here you make a valid point. I will remove the section in light of this argument but I stand by my statement about Fallon. Fallon's view of Petraeus' personality is not relevant as a result of Fallon being his superior officer because Fallon isn't the one that put Petraeus in charge in Iraq. You can thank the United States' Senate for that.A.S. Williams 03:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Why do you say the quote is 'not suitable for a biography'? I direct you towards: WP:CENSOR. I think what you really mean is that it is not suitable for a hagiography. Dlabtot 03:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree.

[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 23:53, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm removing the second paragraph that says Petraeus is widely regarded as one of the brightest soldiers in his generation and that Ret. Gen. McCaffrey thinks he's brilliant. What a retired general says about him doesn't belong in his bio. Again, I'm new to this but "widely regarded" sounds like weasel words... Bbrown8370 23:58, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

McCaffrey is an authority on military ability so it does matter what he thinks. His comments are in regards to Petraeus ability as a general, not to his personality.A.S. Williams 01:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

His commanding officer's opinion is certainly relevant and notable. Dlabtot 01:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

A.S. Williams, I don't want to get in an edit war with you; so I've taken the praise of Petraeus out of the article. NPOV requires that All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources). Both points of view belong in the article, but it is better for neither to be represented than only one. Dlabtot 02:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that the "opposing" view is not a legitimate assessment of the general's military ability but more a personal opinion of his personality. I don't want an editing war either and I have no problem with including an opposing view of his military ability if you can find one but "ass-kissing chickenshit" is not professional and below the standards of wikipedia. A.S. Williams 03:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored. Fallon and Petraeus have a professional, not a personal relationship. His personality and style of command are certainly part of who is as a person, and as a general. Dlabtot 03:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Aside from the fact that an intellectual article would not include that sort of language, if someone put a quote saying that Petraeus was a really sweet man and awesome and brought chocolate and love to the free peoples of Mars, then the appropriate counterpoint would be the Fallon quote. I am not a Petraeus fan, nor am I a Petraeus detractor, I seek facts in balance with each other in the article.A.S. Williams 03:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Your opinion of General Petraeus is obviously irrelevant. However, his commanding officer's opinion of him is significant, even if he expresses it in the 'sort of language' that you disapprove of. Please read WP:CENSOR Dlabtot 04:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd say the views of his previous commanding officer are quite significant. Much more significant than those of an Admiral who thinks he's a chickensh*t.TBSchemer 02:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Well clearly if his previous commanding officer's view is significant, then his current commanding officer's view is significant. The fact that you disagree with one of those viewpoints is irrelevant. Dlabtot 02:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree, entirely. Bbrown8370 03:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, allow me to be more specific. His previous commander's professional opinion about his professional qualities are significant, whereas his current commander's personal views about his personality qualities are not. If you include the quotes about policy differences, then to respect NPOV you also have to include Petraeus' most recent response to the concerns about his policy difference with Fallon: "Admiral Fallon fully supports the recommendations that I have made, as do the Joints Chiefs of Staff. In fact, I also talked to the chief of staff of the Army most recently this morning [Sept. 10, 2007]. We had discussions about the pace of the mission transition, but there has been no recommendation I am aware of that would have laid out by any of those individuals a more rapid withdrawal." TBSchemer 03:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Petraeus' wikipedia article is supposed to be a transcript of his feuds. It should be enough to just note that Fallon, his current commander, disagrees with his professional qualities. We can make a Fallon_Petraeus_Feud page if we want to fully document the feud. The paragraph I had a problem with has been removed, so I have no problem with the intro as it stands. Still, if something were to be included from all of this in a future edit, I think it should be that "Fallon was strongly opposed to Petraeus's role as pitch man for the surge policy in Iraq adopted by Bush in December as putting his own interests ahead of a sound military posture in the Middle East and Southwest Asia." Fallon is in a position to observe this happening. He is also in a position to know that Petraeus' military strategy would jeapordize the greater military picture in that region of the world. IMO, this is the most revealing piece of information in the article I initially quoted. Bbrown8370 04:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Except there's evidence in the quote I listed above that Fallon does not still disagree with Petraeus' policy. So that means it may not be a factual, NPOV representation of Fallon's professional opinion to include the derogatory quotes without Petraeus' refutation. However, McCaffrey's professional praise of Petraeus remains both significant and undisputed. TBSchemer 04:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that with the paragraph removed entirely the inclusion of Fallon's alternate view is less urgent. It is a current news item. This is an encyclopedia. With time and as more details and context emerge it should be easier to include a NPOV version. TBSchemer, Inter Press Service certainly qualifies as a WP:reliable source - the fact that you consider Fallon's viewpoint to be 'derogatory' is completely irrelevant. As far as the idea that nothing negative about Petraeus should be included in Wikipedia unless Petraeus has a chance to 'refute' it - you're not serious are you? Dlabtot 04:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Petraeus' disagreement with Fallon is old news, and has evidently since been resolved, as characterized by the quote I provided. I'm not saying that quote shouldn't be included because it's derogatory. I'm saying that evidence of a dispute that has been resolved should not be included without also providing the evidence that it has been resolved. TBSchemer 05:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Old news? More like a developing story. The Washington Post story was published 3 days ago. The Inter Press Service, today. That's old news? Just because Fallon issued a public statement that "no, really, I'm on board" ? I guess if you accept everything everyone says at face value. Dlabtot 05:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, notice the part where it says, "In an interview Friday, Fallon said he and Petraeus have reached accommodation about tomorrow's testimony. 'The most important thing is I'm very happy with what Dave has recommended,' he said. As for the earlier discussions, he begged off. 'It's too politically charged right now.'" See, now you're trying to selectively include only those quotes from Fallon that support your point of view. What you're trying to do is not NPOV. TBSchemer 05:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

That would be true if I had called for that not to be included, which, of course, I have not done. Dlabtot 06:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

In fact if you look through the comments you'll see that I asked someone who disagreed with me to rewrite, using what quotes they chose. Please, let's keep the discussion about the article and leave off the accusations. Dlabtot 06:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Then I apologize. I thought you were defending Bbrown8370's comment that only the one quote should be included TBSchemer 06:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Pax. With the paragraph excised as it is now, I don't see the NPOV problem, unless there is a different one as well that I'm not aware of. Perhaps some of this stuff can be put in later when hindsight gives a more encyclopedic perspective. Dlabtot 06:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't saying that I thought only the one quote should be included. I think all of this should be left out, for now. I think the Fallon quote is the only thing salvagable that I've seen so far. The reason I said that had more to do with the McCaffrey comment being vague and obscure, and the "widely regarded as the brightest..." comment sounding like weasel words. Show me an article where McCaffrey talking about Petraeus' brilliance on specific military matters, then it can be included. Show me a study/list of the brightest military people in his generation, then we can include it. As for Fallon saying he's on board now, it may be my POV, but the quotes sound very weak. It seems like Fallon is just going along with something he doesn't like that much, because he's not in the decision-making role. He voiced his criticism, and now he's going to do what those above him decide. Essentially, he could tacticly support the surge, he could be happy with Petraeus' recommendations because Fallon thinks they're going to expose Petraeus as incompetent in running a war. I just don't see how a couple of quotes is an equal counterweight to a long standing rift between the two men. Regardless, for now, either make a feud page, or leave it out entirely is my position. Things will most likely continue to develop. Bbrown8370 14:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The Fallon quote is from an article from the Inter Press Service a media organization with a stated POV. Fallon is not quoted directly but unnamed sources are cited for the quote. The article cites a Washington Post article regarding the alleged animosity between Petraeus and Fallon which itself cites unnamed sources. The author is Gareth Porter is an ardent opponent of U.S. military policy. He sought to debunk claims of massacres by the VC during Vietnam. He argued strongly that U.S. withdrawal from Vietnam would not lead to a bloodbath. He was initially skeptical of accounts of the killing in Cambodia. His articles have appeared in the Guardian and the Nation. He is the author of a book that maintains the cause of Vietnam was not superpower competition but U.S. arrogance. Clearly this is not a Reliable Source.--JoeFriday 00:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for letting us know that you think your opinions are 'clearly' true. lol However, your opinions -- such as the notion that being published in the Guardian disqualify someone as a reliable source - don't seem to be referenced in Wikipedia's standards for WP:reliable sources. There is also nothing in the policy that says that the source may not have a POV - sensible considering that all human beings have a POV. At any rate, the Washington Post certainly is without question a WP:reliable source - or do you dispute that as well? Dlabtot 01:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It is a totality. You do not address both articles reliance on unnamed sources quoting a person with whom the quote if true can be confirmed or the author's history of biased reporting. Do you think that the Vietnam war was caused by too much U.S. power and that Communism was irrelevant?--JoeFriday 01:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You are displaying a fundamental misunderstanding of Wikipedia policies. My opinions about the Vietnam War - and yours - are completely irrelevant to any discussion on Wikipedia. As are your or my opinions about the reliability of a particular reporter. I suggest you review WP:NOT, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:V, and WP:CITE. Dlabtot 01:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

A few comments. The article seems to adhere to NPOV. NPOV does not mean you have to balance positive with negative. It means the article is accurate and not biased. The article certainly seems balanced including some criticism of Petraeus. As General Officers are not public politicians, they do not tend to create a trail of controversy. Also, the claimed comments by Admiral Fallon came from a leftist web news site, is not sourced, and seems unlikely. Claims of friction between Fallon and Petraeus do exist in the mainstream press, but such friction is normal in war (read some of the books on WWII or Desert Storm for examples). -- 14 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.211.33.62 (talk) 03:05, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you are misunderstanding my point. It is not whether you or I believe this reporter's theses but rather that they are fringe theories.

• WP reads that "[a]rticles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made."
  • The WP article on Mr. Porter notes a controversial reputation.
• WP reads that "exceptional claims require exceptional sources."
  • The claim that one's supervisor made such remarks is exceptional and should have more than one article written by an activist citing unnamed sources who claimed to have heard a remark.
• Additionally, WP reads that "[s]urprising or apparently important claims that are not widely known . . . not covered by reliable news media . . . [r]eports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest they had previously defended" require exceptional sources.
  • While the Fallon quote may appear not to be against an interest that he had previously defended, it would go a long way to support the reliability of the source if there was some documentation that Fallon resisted Petraeus's appointment as his subordinate.
• WP also reads that "[e]xceptional claims should be supported by multiple high quality reliable sources, especially . . . in material about living people."
  • One article, by an activist citing unnamed sources claiming to have heard an apparently offhand remark by someone who is available to confirm the quote but hasn't, certainly is not "multiple high quality reliable sources."
• Nothing in my remarks is original research. It is not original to say that the author is controversial. Nor is it original to say that the article cites unnamed sources.
• WP also reads that "[m]aterial about living persons must be sourced very carefully."
  • Again one article by an activist citing unnamed sources claiming to have heard an apparently offhand remark by someone who is available to confirm the quote but hasn't certainly is not "sourced very carefully."
• While the article in the Washington Post also cites unnamed sources, the Post is more reputable and the allegation is less exceptional in that it alleges that a supervisor and subordinate do not get along rather than that the supervisor made an undermining slur against a subordinate.
• Perhaps a better way to say it is that hyperbole uttered by unnamed sources is not reliable. Of course, that would apply to the Washington Post article as well. Both articles together, would be reliable sources to say that the men do not have good chemistry. There is too great a possibility that activists would exaggerate disagreements among opponents.--JoeFriday 04:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

You really need to read WP:reliable sources and WP:NPOV again. You are totally not getting it. For the purposes of Wikipedia anything that appears in a newspaper such as the Washington Post, or the Chicago Tribune - or any other newspaper with 'an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight.' - is considered reliable. The Washington Post is the source, not the reporter or the people quoted in the article. Dlabtot 07:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The Fallon quote is

• an exceptional claim,
• a surprising or apparently important claim that is not widely known,
• a report of a statement by someone that seems embarrassing and controversial,
• in material about a living person, and
• NOT supported by multiple sources.--JoeFriday 11:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

So is this article still disputed? What are the specific issues outstanding? How do we resolve them? If none are outstanding I am going to remove the NPOV tag. --Rtrev 20:23, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's definitely still disputed. Certainly no consensus has emerged, despite the overwhelming volume of text typed on this page by just a few editors. Dlabtot 02:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Right I see that. What I am really asking is what are the specific points. If there are none then this is a resolved conflict despite the verbiage. If there are specific problems then lets hear solutions. --Rtrev 02:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The specific points are the same as they always were. The article is laudatory almost to the point of hagiography. All criticism of Petraeus is presented as partisan sniping from Democrats. The quite substantive disagreement with his commanding officer is not mentioned. See the RfC below. Dlabtot 02:56, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

• The dispute is not whether we should mention the disagreement with his commanding officer. It is (1) whether we should include a specific quote that some feel is inappropriate, (2) whether the one source for that quote is reliable, and (3) whether that quote should require multiple sources. All criticism of Petraeus is not portrayed as partisan sniping from Democrats. One source is alleged to be unreliable because of the great controversy surrounding that source. The alleged bias of the source may be better sourced than the disputed quote.
• For a proposed consensus, try this: In a biography of a living person, a quote from another living person which is controversial, degrading, profane, or potentially defaming if not confirmed by the party alleged to have made it or quoted directly from that party should have at least two sources and at least one source should itself not be written by someone whose reliability has been questioned by other reliable sources and should not rely on unnamed sources. I think this reasonably meets the policy on biographies of living persons.
• The remark about excess verbiage from two editors is unreasonable. Much of the alleged excess occurred not in the RFC or NPOV setion but in a separate section started by one editor threatening the other editor with being banned from Wikipedia. The excess of verbiage seems to have resulted in a resolution of that conflict. The real difficulty here is that two other editors repeatedly insert a quote in the article which others believe violates the policy on biographies of living persons.--JoeFriday 01:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you read the RfC again. It certainly is not as you characterize it. Dlabtot 01:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

• If the controversy were only as the RFC reads "[s]hould Petraeus'[s] highly public rift with his commanding officer be include[d] in the article," then this would have resolved itself some time ago. The Washington Post article can be cited for that. If one repeatedly includes the IPS quote which violates WP:BLP, others remove it repeatedly, and one responds with an NPOV tag and an RFC tag, then the controversy is not as described in the RFC tag.--JoeFriday ^(talk) 23:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

David Petraeus family history

The current article says that General Petraeus's father moved to the U.S. after World War II. This is at odds with other another source, the Washington Post, which says Petraeus's father was a Dutch ship captain, who moved to the U.S. before WWII and married a woman from Brooklyn. During WWII, according to that article, his father was the captain of a liberty ship. For further information see http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A36843-2004Mar6?language=printer

This seems to be a significant detail that may need to be corrected. 208.242.58.126 20:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I corrected it. There is a Minneapolis Star Tribune article that says one thing and the above Wash. Post article says the other. I footnoted both. JoeFriday 03:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Is there any place that lists the several hearings of the past year, such as yesterday, today?

Today, regarding whether our nation, United States of America, is safer in relation to the Iraq war [&, by implication, the Afghan war, as well], he said something about:

"I believe this is the best course of action to achieve our objectives in Iraq." So, the best decision; but, not safer,....

I'm wondering whether it is consensus that a military general's duty, or any soldier's duty, to be an automaton, robot. Does the Geneva Convention speak of this??

John William Warner .

[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 22:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

A related quote is now a television commercial:

< http://google.as/search?q=%22best+course+of+action%22+%22i+don%27t+know+actually%22+%22i+have+not+sat+down%22+%22%22 >: •

“I believe this is indeed the best course of action to achieve our objectives in Iraq.”

•

“I don’t know, actually. I have not sat down and sorted in my own mind.”

[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 23:42, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Four stars on uniform.

What do these signify? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.171.109 (talk) 09:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Four stars is the insignia of a full general or admiral in the US Armed Forces. CsikosLo 11:47, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Newsweek Reference to "leadership is a bit of a confidence game"

I do not believe this should be included because Newsweek is not qualified to make an assessment of a military general and his leadership. This is editorializing the article and should not be there. Furthermore, the Newsweek opinion of what leadership is cannot be considered accurate. If we put this in there, then we should put every other POV comment on Petraeus that there is. The comment by the other military individual is relevant because the source is a military leader and has authority on the subject at hand.A.S. Williams 18:24, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

• The POV tag for this article is well deserved. Of course a fellow general is not expected to give an independent assessment of his character. A suitable source would be an independent journal or newspaper. V8rik 20:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

• That makes little sense. You're saying that no military leader can comment on another military leader without it being PoV? Can a busines leader comment on another without that being PoV? Just because they are both generals doesn't make them attached at the hip or anything like that. I agree with A.S. Williams here. His being a military leader should be considered expertise and thus relevant and authoritative. Scharferimage 21:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

• • I'd actually say that's probably about right - business leaders is not a apt comparison. There is a conflict of interest within the military - fellow soldiers and especially officers, and even moreso ones as involved in the politics of the current military situation - most likely can't comment negatively and have it be safe for their careers.Drewson99 01:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

RfC: Should Petraeus' highly public rift with his commanding officer be include in the article?

Should published criticism of General Patraeus by his commanding officer, Admiral William J. Fallon be included in the article? It seems to me that his commanding officer's viewpoint is certainly a 'significant point of view'. Dlabtot 02:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's a tough call. The Iraq War troop surge of 2007 article might be a better place for Fallon's professional criticism of Petraeus' military strategy. That is really what that's all about. However, Fallon's assertion that Petraeus is more interested in his own interests than a sound military position could be included here without my objection. Still, it might be better to let this play out for a bit, before we try to document. I would like to see Fallon's criticism more heavily sourced than I have supplied if included. Bbrown8370 04:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

If it's true that very reliable source say that Fallon has criticized Petraeus, the answer is "Include-- yes, yes, a thousand times yes." That said, I echo Bbrown's desire to the wait a tad before inclusion, to let mainstream media have a bit of time to chew on in, and sourt out for us whether the claims about Fallon's criticisms are true. --Alecmconroy —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alecmconroy (talk • contribs) 18:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

As long as the criticism can be reliably sourced, it should be included. I haven't checked what sources are reporting the claim, but IIRC, the ones I've seen so far seem reliable. Ngchen 01:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I know a couple of people already agreed to this in the NPOV section, and I'm just sticking this here to determine whether there's anyone else who might disagree: If we include Fallon's policy criticism from March, we should also include Fallon's more recent comments about how he's "very happy" with Petraeus' policy. TBSchemer 06:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

When did he say that he's "very happy"? Revolutionaryluddite 02:22, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I see from [1] that Petraeus says Fallon "fully supports" him. This must be included if the previous Fallon statements are included. Revolutionaryluddite 02:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Here via RFC: I think Bbrown and Alec have it pretty much entirely correct.Orphic 12:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Late to the party... someone above said it was "highly-public"; what has the coverage in the mainstream media been of the criticism. Have newspapers/tv outlets/radio run stories on it? Links? Mahalo. --Ali'i 14:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Here you go: The Washington Post story, Inter Pres Service story -- Dlabtot 15:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Since Fallon is criticizing the Iraq War troop surge of 2007 per se and not the General himself, I think that his comments belong on that page. However, Alecmconroy, Orphic, Bbrown8370 have a very good point about waiting to see how this plays out. Revolutionaryluddite 02:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

After looking at Talk:David_Petraeus#Neutral_Point_of_View, I strongly disagree that "published criticism" should be added if the criticisms will be nothing more than personal insults. Criticisms of something just connected to him- i.e. against the Bush Administration- should not be on the page either. Criticisms listed on this page must be criticisms of Petraeus personally based on his beliefs, conduct, and actions. Revolutionaryluddite 02:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The surge is the main reason Petraeus has a significant article in Wiki. Any criticism of Petraeus related to the surge (especially from his commanding officer), ie some of Fallon's comments, probably do have a place here if they turn out to be accurate and true and Petraeus' moment of fame remains primarily because of Iraq counter-insurgency (the surge). But it's up to you guys. Bbrown8370 08:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The Washington Post article doesn't quote criticism from Fallon of Petraeus, though, it just mentions that a "schism" and "bad relations" between them existed in the past and has now since changed. Fallon just criticised part of the surge strategy (and the President). The article is the only reliable source I've seen so far that reports on the 'rift', and it doesn't really have specific criticism of Petraeus. Revolutionaryluddite 16:22, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

umm it seems like maybe you didn't actually read read the referenced news articles or something. Fallon isn't criticizing Petraeus for having halitosis or because he doesn't like his hairstyle. His criticizing him as an officer. Dlabtot 07:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, I've read the articles. I've looked through the one reliable source cited, the Washington Post, and I don't see any quotes by Fallon that crtiticise Petraeus. The article reports that a 'schism' existed in the past and that it does not now-- that's all. Revolutionaryluddite 16:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, no, what the Washington Post story reports is that behind the public face of unity, a schism exists between Patraeus and Fallon. Further, the very fact that we are having this disagreement shows that there is more than one point of view; rather than deciding which is the correct point of view, the article should present the facts in a NPOV manner and leave it to the reader to make that judgement. Dlabtot 20:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be saying that there are two interpretations of the article: first, that the article means exactly what it says and the two officers had a strong personal disagreement that is now resolved (or is being resolved); second, that there is some kind of a blood feud between them that is kept under wraps by a Bush Administration conspiracy. Occam's razor clearly implies here. We have the right to have our opinions, but not to have our own facts. The fact is that the article does not have a specific quote by Fallon criticising Petraeus. The article has criticism by Fallon of certain parts of the surge and of President Bush as well as statements by Fallon supporting Petraeus. That's it. Revolutionaryluddite 01:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Please limit your responses to describing your own point of view. I never said nor implied anything remotely like the viewpoint you ascribed to me. Your characterizations of my comments are inaccurate and unwelcome. Dlabtot 22:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Fallon isn't just another officer. He's important enough in Petraeus's story that his favorable and unfavorable comments should be included. That includes comments that Wikipedia editors think are insufficiently substantive. We aren't to decide whether criticisms are "based on his beliefs, conducts, and actions", or based on some other factors we consider proper, or based on some factors we consider inappropriate. The issue for us is significance. A blogger who writes a cogent critique of the failings of Petraeus's training program doesn't get quoted. A general closely associated with Petraeus who dishes a personal insult does get quoted. JamesMLane t c 05:07, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

JamesMLane t c 05:03, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The Fallon quote is

• an exceptional claim,
• a surprising or apparently important claim that is not widely known,
• a report of a statement by someone that seems embarrassing and controversial,
• in material about a living person, and
• not supported by multiple sources.--JoeFriday 11:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

JamesMLane, if Fallon's earlier comments are significant, then why aren't his later comments (in which Fallon is "very happy" and "fully supports" Petraeus)? Revolutionaryluddite 15:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Here for the RFC: I think that Bbrown8370 has it right -- Petraeus' notability comes mainly from his role as the chosen military spokesman for the White House on Iraq policy. It is widely acknowledged that his Report was ghostwritten by the White House. The fact that other military leaders, specifically Fallon, are less than pleased by this should certainly be included. And finally, I would disagree with Joe Friday's assertions that Fallon's views are "surprising" and "not widely known." --Marvin Diode 20:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It is widely acknowledged that his Report was ghostwritten by the White House. This is a very strong accusation. You're saying that Petraeus explicitly lied to Congress and the American people. Fallon, are less than pleased by this The Fallon-Petraeus "schism" is not related to this, as the Washington Post article explains; Fallon did not accuse Petraeus of lying in his Report. Revolutionaryluddite 01:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Revolutionaryluddite, as far as the two apparently contradictory comments from Fallon, WP:NPOV is clear and explicit: "When reputable sources contradict one another, the core of the NPOV policy is to let competing approaches exist on the same page: work for balance, that is: describe the opposing viewpoints according to reputability of the sources, and give precedence to those sources that have been the most successful in presenting facts in an equally balanced manner." - in this case that would be the Washington Post. Dlabtot 20:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

This is not a case of two or more reliable sources contradicting each other. This is a case in which one reliable source reports a consistent story-- Fallon and Petraeus had a strong disagreement which is now resolved (or being resolved). Revolutionaryluddite 01:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

In reply to Marvin Diode, I don't mean that Fallon's critical attitude or personal animosity to Petraeus are "surprising" and "not widely known." I think that the the Wash. Post and IPS articles taken together refute that. My point is

——that the "ass kissing ... chickenshit" quote is "surprising" and "not widely known!!!!!"——

While Fallon's critical attitude or personal animosity to Petraeus are supported by multiple sources and are not exceptional, the "ass kissing ... chickenshit" quote is not supported by multiple sources and is exceptional. To comply with WP guidelines on this point is to make an assertion about the Fallon-Petraeus attitude or relationship that is fully supported by the Wash. Post article as the IPS article would then necessarily be a multiple source for that. The Wash. Post article is not a multiple source for the "chickenshit" quote.--JoeFriday 23:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

An additional concern I have is the competing meanings of chickenshit. It is military slang for stupid and petty ridiculous bureaucratic regulatory nonsense. In common parlance, it means cowardly. See Urban Dictionary and Free Dictionary. For this reason the quote is especially harmful as it is functionally libel. Even if said with the military connotation, it will be read by most with the more common and more derogatory connotation. Interestingly, its use therefore conforms to a standard practice of antiwar activists of accusing policy makers refusing to surrender of being cowardly.--JoeFriday 18:33, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

"a standard practice of antiwar activists of accusing policy makers refusing to surrender of being cowardly"? Should I assume that this is your personal take on the matter? What is of some actual relevance to the article is the pattern of military leaders who have either resigned in protest, or been fired for differing with administration policy, and more significantly, former officers who have criticized the Bush administration using surprisingly strong language -- Lawrence Wilkerson comes to mind. In light of this, I don't find Fallon's language to be especially surprising. It is also not libellous. It falls under the category of "criticism." The use of the term "chickenhawk," for example, is typically found among military veterans, who are referring to ostentatiously bellicose individuals who avoided military service themeselves. --Marvin Diode 01:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Whether or not the President has been denounced using strong language is irrelevant. Fallon's statement in the Press Service is surprising, given that the Washington Post reports that Fallon supports Petraeus, and has not supported by other sources as JoeFriday has noted. Revolutionaryluddite 20:48, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Civilian anti-war activists have used the term 'chickenhawk' to apply to other civilians as well as pro-surge veterans. But this is beside the point. Revolutionaryluddite 20:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

outside opinion from — BQZip01 — ^talk

I came into this from the RfC page.

I think that the comments seem to be more of a professional assessment of a subordinate within the confines of the military structure. While he said it, I don't think it is very notable. I know of many officers who say things like this and forget them the next day. Additionally, it doesn't appear that Admiral Fallon continues to hold that opinion. Disagreements, even vehement disagreements, are very common when it comes to policy discussions at every level of command in the military. I don't think those should be taken out of context.

I concur that The Fallon quote is an exceptional claim, a surprising or apparently important claim that is not widely known, a report of a statement by someone that seems embarrassing and controversial, in material about a living person, and, most importantly, not supported by multiple sources. If it can be backed up, it should be and then it can be included, but not necessarily should be included, but given the inflammatory nature of these comments and WP:BIO policy/guidelines, this should certainly be balanced with Fallon's comments later that he is "very happy" and "fully supports" Petraeus. — BQZip01 — ^talk 15:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

(Shameless self-promotion to follow). If anyone else would like, there is a discussion on the Talk: Fightin' Texas Aggie Band page and your opinions on this RfC would be appreciated. — BQZip01 — ^talk 15:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, despite the assertion of one of the editors on this page, the RfC question is not whether that particular quote should be included, but whether the rift between Petraeus and Fallon, reported on by both the Washington Post and the Inter Press Service, should be included in the article. Dlabtot 19:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• The RFC and NPOV questions are not the only questions. Include the rift without the quote, and there is no controversy. Include the quote, and you violate WP:BLP. Either way, any reference to the rift will likely be met with the inclusion of evidence of its resolution. No matter how reasonably you phrase your RFC or your NPOV, you cannot treat their resolution as justifying including the quote. There is no way that quote with that source alone does not violate WP:BLP. Accept reporting the rift without the quote, and I no longer have a dispute. Include the IPS article along with the Washington Post article as a reference for the rift, and I have no dispute. Include the quote, and I will continue to report that you are in flagrant violation of WP:BLP. If the WP:BLP question is resolved in your favor, I will withdraw from the debate. Until and unless it is, include it, and you knowingly, willfully, and by now repeatedly violate WP:BLP.--JoeFriday ^(talk) 03:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the "chickenshit" quote, I never thought it "surprising," and at this juncture, I don't think there can be any validity to the claim that it is "not widely known." See this search of Google News. --Marvin Diode 14:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

• Do any cite original sources other than IPS or unnamed? An awful lot of them look like blogs. Several appear to be from Huffington Post. It would be more accurate to say that the IPS story has been widely quoted mostly by partisan outlets with a desire for it to be true.--JoeFriday ^(talk) 21:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

• Unless my oount is off, I only see 5 people brought into the discussion by way of the RfC, and I sure don't see any consensus yet. Dlabtot 21:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

POV issues on talk page

Comment to JoeFriday: Please stop POV pushing on this page, or elsewhere. From the contexts used, the phrases and terms "another leftist disinformation front", activist (several times), "anti-war activists", and "fringe theories" (and comments about Gareth Porter) appear to be politically motivated attempts to impugne the integrity and reliability of the sources mentioned in order to skew the discussion toward your own POV. We all have points-of-view (politics being one of the more contentious) but we are all required by the Wikipedia non-negotiable values (including WP:NPOV) to abstain from a POV while working here, including on the talk pages. If you continue pushing your POV, you may be reported and potentially blocked from editing. — Becksguy 02:42, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Becksguy, this is an RFC for this article itself. If you have a personal disagreement with JoeFriday's past edits, then please post a seperate RFC. Revolutionaryluddite 03:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out. I fixed it by creating a separate section. I don't wish to start a RfC as I don't think the issue has risen to that level, however, I felt it needed to be mentioned as it stood out to fresh eyes. As to the personal disagreement: It's neither personal nor a disagreement with JoeFriday. I simply observed what I believe to be POV issues and commented on them as an otherwise uninvolved editor. Reliable sources are those with a structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight, but where a source is positioned on the political spectrum is not one of the criteria. A source from the left or right can be a reliable source, or not, depending. But to use semantically loaded terms for a source has a tendency to create assumptions in the readers mind that may have nothing to do with it's reliability. I understand that it can be hard to lay aside one's POV when editing here, especially in contentious subjects/articles, but we all have to do our best to observe NPOV. And sometimes an independent observation can be helpful in doing that. Thank you. — Becksguy 17:08, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

However, it is appropriate to note that some comments have veered away from the topic at hand into a more general expression of POV. --Marvin Diode 14:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Becksguy, JoeFriday's comments seem- to me, at least- to be pointing out that the Press Service has a extremely strong ideological bias, a history of sensationalism, and a history of factual issues. Revolutionaryluddite 20:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC) (I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with him or anything like that- just I think this is what he is saying.)

Would you consider, in the same vein as this debate, [2] or [3] or [4] to be reilable sources for the Barbara Boxer or Harry Reid articles? Revolutionaryluddite 20:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• Alas, it is true we all have a POV. A quote using foul and demeaning language should be required to have multiple sources when it is about a living person or the object of the insult is politically controversial and the single source has a track record of partisan reporting. Put the shoe on the other foot. For example, if just as a leading expert was testifying in front of Congress to the danger of Global Warming, WorldNetDaily was the only media outlet to claim that the expert's boss called him an expletive-crackpot and cited only unnamed sources and the boss wouldn't confirm it, then we all would demand a second source. At least, we should.--JoeFriday 01:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

• To BecksGuy, I am not intending to push a POV. Obviously, mine leaked out while I was expressing frustration in an effort to get others to stop pushing what I see as a POV. I agree that the phrase "another leftist disinformation front" was over the top. Is "activist" impugning someone's character? By implication one would be saying that activism is bad. Has an organization which describes its activities as political action or has a political action committee embraced the term? My objection is to activism which purports to be non-partisan, independent, or neutral when it is not. MoveOn refers to itself as non-partisan. Is the phrase "fringe theories" impugning the integrity of sources? The phrase comes straight from WP:REDFLAG. Admittedly, it warns against the theories rather than using their proponents as reliable sources in another context. Is the epithet "fringe theory" really deserved? I wouldn't put in a regular article because I wouldn't want to do the research to source it. Is the term "antiwar" unfair? The ABC article cited in the caption to the picture of the MoveOn ad refers to MoveOn as an "antiwar group." Is ABC a reliable source? Regarding the author of the article which I believe needs a corroborating source, he says the following, "I believe the antiwar movement and the movement against militarism in this country is the saving remnant of American society. It is what stands between the political elite of this country and the utter ruination, the utter degradation of what is left of decent values in this country as far as its role in the world is concerned." (YouTube) Am I wrong to perceive that statement as evidence of the source's unreliability? That's not my decision. This is after all a talk page. Unlike other editors who have stated their intention to edit the article without consensus, I will reserve my remarks on this point to the talk page. I leave it up to others to decide.--JoeFriday 03:00, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

• To JoeFriday. Thank you for a thoughtful and long response. I'm sorry I came on a bit strong in my initial comment, and yes, it was the phrase about the disinformation front, among other things, that prompted me. Separate from the issue of source reliability, I was concerned that the characterization added an emotional layer that made it even harder to maintain a NPOV mode of discussion. Although I know the Washington Post well, I don't know the reputation of IPS or it's editorial policies/structures, so I can't comment on it's reliability. You have a point about "activists", although I saw it as code for anti-war or left-wing activists, and felt that it was also not neutrally descriptive. However, any one that fights for what they believe in, rather than just sitting on the couch watching TV, is an activist in a sense, regardless of where they are politically. It looked like "fringe theory" was being applied to the chickenshit remark by Adm. Fallon, and that seemed to be an grossly overreaching stretch of the meaning. Describing MoveOn as "anti-war" is incomplete, as that is only one, and a more recent, part of it's operations. But more importantly, I don't see how being anti-war makes a source automatically unreliable. If anti-war sources are unreliable due to being partisan, then so are pro-war sources, and due to the heavy polarization in our society, that might not leave many usable sources. Anyway, I think the air has been cleared somewhat. Some of the comments you made deserve further thought in later responses. And this whole issue of source reliability needs to be discussed in much more depth that we can in one article talk page. I agree with your point that one should not edit a contentious article without discussion first. — Becksguy 22:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

• I regret that I did not make clear that what I referred to as a "fringe theory" was the assertion that the Vietnam war resulted from the U.S. having too much power. To describe MoveOn as "anti-war" may well be incomplete. They are clearly active on a broad front of issues. Are they also "anti-war"? ABC thinks so, and it is footnoted. If you doubt Wikipedia's description of the controversy surrounding the reliability of the author in question, then try that of Romanticizing the Khmer Revolution an excerpt from a Berkeley Political Science Honors Thesis by Sophal Ear.--JoeFriday 23:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

• OK, sorry I misread it. Now I understand the fringe theory reference and thank you for clearing that up. Also, I wasn't denying that MoveOn.org is an anti-war group, I just wanted to clarify that it isn't a single issue group, since they started out doing, and still do, liberal issues advocacy and education, and grassroots political lobbying as a PAC, among other things. And I will check out your citations. This has become a helpful discussion, and it remained civil, which in contentious subjects is harder to maintain. (BTW, I added bullets for readability.) Thank you. — Becksguy 01:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

• Where there's smoke, there's fire. Becksguy appears to be someone you want up in that lookout tower. Just look at how much verbiage there is on this page from only two users. It is like a smokescreen obscuring the commentary. Dlabtot 02:36, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Please remain civil. Revolutionaryluddite 02:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Please explain why you are mentioning the page on civility. Do you object to something I said? What do you object to, and why? Thanks in advance. Dlabtot 02:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Pejoratively labeling another user's comments "verbiage" and "a smokescreen" is not civil. Revolutionaryluddite 02:56, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The word verbiage is not pejorative; it's about as neutral as a term can get. I do stand by my opinion that it is difficult to get a sense of the RfC consensus because of excessive and repetitive commentary from a couple of editors. I certainly do not mean to inflame passions or hurt feelings by saying so, but simply to work towards a better discussion. Dlabtot 03:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean to assume bad faith on your part. And there's no point in starting a meta-arguement over what the definition of 'civilty' is. Revolutionaryluddite 03:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I just think that this whole 'POV issues on talk page' section has gotten off topic. Revolutionaryluddite 03:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

• This is a separate section, and the subject was the talk page per se, not the article. But I can see your point, Dlabtot, why don't you move the entire RfC section to the bottom of the page, bypassing all three sections currently below it? — Becksguy 03:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that that'll help; and I'm not too comfortable moving stuff around on talk pages. I'd really like to just sit back and see how the RfC turns out. Dlabtot 03:54, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Bronze Star

Can someone find anything about how General Petraeus received his Bronze Star and V(alor) pin? Chadlupkes 21:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Promotion From Two to Four Star General

Also, I'd like to find out if anyone knows his promotion dates. A picture dating to 2003 in the article has him ranked Major General. In 2007, he's a full General. Was he promoted to Lieutenant General for a short time (i.e. a few months) before or did he jump rank, and when? Thanks? 125.175.99.136 05:13, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't have exact promotion dates (they seem hard to find) but he was promoted to LTG (Lieutenant General, three stars) in June 2004 and to full 4 star general in January/February 2007. So he didn't jump from 2 to 4 stars. — Becksguy 08:13, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

According to the Department of the Army's General Officer Management Office (DA GOMO) https://dagomo.us.army.mil/ (this website requires an AKO account http://www.us.army.mil). Please forward requests for information on Active Component General Officers to:

gomo@us.army.mil or call (703) 697-7994.

Dates of rank for Petraeus:

Second Lieutenant - 5 June 1974

First Lieutenant - 5 June 1976

Captain - 8 August 1978

Major - 1 August 1985

Lieutenant Colonel - 1 April 1991

Colonel - 1 September 1995

Brigadier General - 1 January 2000

Major General - 1 January 2003

Lieutenant General - 18 May 2004

General - 10 February 2007

-TabooTikiGod 06:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Harry Reid "argument"

The sentance "Democratic Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada has argued Petraeus' 'plan is just more of the same' and 'is neither a drawdown or a change in mission that we need.'" caught my eye. It should be removed, because it really says nothing other than that Sen. Reid's assertion is that "a drawdown or change is mission" is what "we need", and that Gen. Petraeus' testimony was something else. I'm not sure whether this is begging the question or a straw man argument, however. Lowellt 22:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The word "argued" should probably be changed to "said". Revolutionaryluddite 23:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

BLPDispute & BLPSources

Does the "ass kissing ... chickenshit" quote violate WP:BLP or not?--JoeFriday ^(talk) 02:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe it does since there are not multiple reliable sources for the quote. Revolutionaryluddite 02:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Response to his Report

See Report_to_Congress_on_the_Situation_in_Iraq#Response. I'm not sure how much (if any) of the information on there should be referred to in this article. It is a response to Petreaus himself as well as his report. Revolutionaryluddite 05:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• I think polls taken before the report measuring the public's anticipation of the report's truthfulness may be a bit confusing or irrelevant now that the report has been made and there are polls measuring the public's perception after hearing what is in the actual report. Other than that, the section seems fine.--JoeFriday ^(talk) 10:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Revolutionaryluddite 15:51, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

MoveOn Ad Side Bar

The sidebar detailing the MoveOn ad is not objective. It provides a cite to an ABC article with incorrect information about the cost of the ad. And the sidebar states (subjectively) that the the NYT charged MoveOn "36 percent of the average rate." While that may be true, details need to be stated that clarifies WHY the ad was at a lower cost (ie it was on "standby"). A source detailing this can be found here: [5]. Wanderluster 03:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)wanderluster

If there's a factual dispute about the ad's cost between two or more reliable sources, then the sidebar should report both sides. But I don't think [6] qualifies as a reliable source since it's a blog and not a news article. Revolutionaryluddite 03:21, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

This [7] reference is a statement by the director of advertising acceptability for the New York Times and is published by the Times. It's not a blog. The caption is POV pushing and inflammatory the way it reads, and the comment about the 36% rate that implies moveon.org received preferential treatment is false. Right wing ads, such as Guilliani's [8] receive reduced ad rates if they are placed on standby also. Just like flying standby, no more, no less. Furthermore, an image caption is not the place for political partisan statements. It should be an extremely short, simple, NPOV, and accurate caption of what is pictured. No more. no less. Most of the caption has to be removed. — Becksguy 08:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

• The 36% is based on the ABC article and sourced. I chose to express it as a percent because it is more compact than the actual numbers. The New York Times response is titled a blog. Is it official? Is the person writing it the official who would have the answer? If so, I see nothing wrong with including their response. One should note that the New York Times has a history of bias and unreliability but if it is the official position of the New York Times, I don't see a problem with saying that the Times disputed the favoritism claim. The Times produced Walter Duranty and Jason Blair. For an example of the Times's important contributions to Wikipedia, see Wikipedia Scanner and more specifically George W. Bush and again George W. Bush. We should probably counter the Times explanation of the pricing with an elucidation of their history of bias.--JoeFriday ^(talk) 13:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

• Wanderluster's reference may be a blog, but mine isn't (and there is news story reference following). It, as I said, was published in The New York Times (NYT). However, there are still several objections to the caption as it is. First, the 36% is misleading and implies something not true, that a preferential rate was given to this ad not given to other ads due to it's political message. That's POV. A spokesperson for NYT said that Moveon paid a standard “standby” rate as reported in a NYT news story here. Second, the caption states that Moveon.org is a anti-war, liberal, interest group. None of those are established facts. They should be stated with reliable sources as to whom has said that MoveOn.org is anti-war, and/or liberal and/or an interest group. As they stand, they deserve {{fact}} or similar tags. Third, the NYT is biased in what way? Overly conservative in that it supported the invasion of Iraq and the existence of WMD there? The Walter Duranty issue happened before WW2 and has absolutely no relevance to the current NYT (besides he kept his Pulitzer). People born then would be in their late 70s and those from that generation in their late 80s or older. The Jason Blair wikilink points to a TV show. Is that relevant? I have no idea what the scanner reference or the two wikilinks to Bush mean, other than being sophomoric comments totally unrelated to any claimed bias. Fourth, the caption is not the place for partisan comments or complex issues. The caption should identify the image with something like: MoveOn's ad about Gen. Petraeus that appeared in the NYT on [date]. Period. That is squeaky clean neutral, and totally factual, as we need to be in this article. Anything else, such as comments about the political leanings of MoveOn, if any, and comments about who voted for/against, or didn't vote, in Congress, all belong in the article body. Especially as this is a controversial and contentious issue and also complex what with all the pro-war/anti-war coverage appearing in the press about it. It's also a matter of style. It's like showing an image of the Constitution in an article and including the Federalist/Anti-Federalist arguments about it within the caption. And finally, there are two editors here that believe that the caption/sidebar is not objective as it is. — Becksguy 21:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

• What an utterly ridiculous example of blatant POV-pushing. Dlabtot 22:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The only thing on the sidebar that is factually disputed by reliable sources is the ad's cost. Since two reliable sources disagree, both should be mentioned. The rest of the sidebar's content is factual, notable, and relevant to the picture. Revolutionaryluddite 00:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

• Thank you for agreeing with me. The one sided nature of the ad cost comment was my main point. — Becksguy 08:37, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I see that the NYT has admitted that they made a mistake. Revolutionaryluddite 15:53, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

If the ad was paid under the reduced "stand-by rate", why did it run on the sxact same day as the General's testimony? [9] Revolutionaryluddite 01:24, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

• Reply to BecksGuy, I'm not nearly as bad faith as you fear. I did not include the anti-war description originally. I put it back in after it was removed with the implication that it was somehow untrue/unproven or the like.
  • The caption already cited the ABC article which described MoveOn as an anti-war group. Who inserted the liberal interest group, I don't know. I would not have described MoveOn thus.
  • Without a reference, I would hesitate to describe it at all. As far as the NYT blog issue, you are correct. I thought you were disputing the claim that a particular source was a blog.
  • I didn't realize you were referring to an additional source. As you'll note in my post, I described an appropriate source which it seems you had used. Thus, we have no dispute.
  • The suggestion that the NYT is overly conservative is extreme. I am not pushing a POV. Where I may be less circumspect is on talk pages in my responses to what I see as other's pushing a POV.
  • I try to undo the POV I think others are pushing, and in doing so I may occasionally go overboard. You may note that before the quote which I believe has yet to receive any support as not violating WP:BLP, my contributions to the article were primarily I think in formatting the bibliography. Regarding Jason Blair, had I spelled it Jason blair or Jayson Blair it would have landed properly.
  • As it was, the link did not point to a TV show but rather was redirected to a TV show when it should have been redirected to a disambiguation page instead. As for Walter Duranty, yes he kept his Pulitzer. Do you mean to suggest that the Pulitzer excuses his work?
  • If you read his Wikipedia entry, you'll see that his keeping it is more an indictment on those who didn't take it from him. While he wrote in the thirties, his Pulitzer was reviewed again in the 1990s and later in 2003. The NYT has not chosen to return the prize or call for its revocation or make public its recommendation to the Pulitzer committee.
  • Have they unequivocally renounced Duranty as did the historian they hired to review the matter? The scanner found the two links to the Bush article which was vandalized by someone at the Times. Your suggested caption is reasonable though I question the appropriateness of including the ad at all.
  • It's sort of like the Times saying it wasn't defamatory because it had a question mark. Who responded to the ad was included because someone kept putting in that some Republicans and a few Democrats were opposed to it. That was clearly an effort to conceal the truth that we can't seem to find any Republicans that didn't condemn it, and there were one or two Democrats that did as of my last edit on the caption if you count Joe Lieberman.
  • The remainder of your post seems agreeable though the last sentence is unclear. How is the caption not objective? The statements are true if unflattering and negative and perhaps straying into POV or as you say inappropriate to a photo caption.
  • However, the statements have not been refuted with sources. You make some good points, and I have conceded several. That one will have to wait until you can source it.
  • Regarding Dlabtot, it seems that his persistent habit of attacking other editors or their comments is becoming tiresome. The RFC and NPOV controversies are clear examples of his violation of WP:GAME. I am quite restrained in all but my response to the use of Wikipedia to attack one's political opponents.--JoeFriday ^(talk) 06:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

• It would appear that the Times has changed its story on the StandBy rate defense. New York Times Says It Violated Policies Over MoveOn Ad, By Howard Kurtz, Washington Post, September 24, 2007, p. A8. Betraying Its Own Best Interests, By CLARK HOYT, New York Times, September 23, 2007.--JoeFriday ^(talk) 07:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

• I have no doubt that you are a very good faith editor, JoeFriday. Even when we disagree on points, you have been civil and I have learned from you. And you have taken the time to respond in a thoughtful way to the points raised. I have come to respect you, even if I don't always agree with you. You have made some good points also. So the process of hashing things out has apparently worked here. I hope you feel the same. Responses to follow, but I wanted to get this out up front. — Becksguy 08:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

• The latest caption now says that "The paper admitted to improperly charging MoveOn.org the standby rate..." That not what NYT said. Both the Washington Post and the NYT article (using the two references in the standby defense comment above) quoted Catherine Mathis, the spokesperson for NYT, as saying "We made a mistake." That's the reliably sourced statement and the more neutral statement. I think the sentence in the caption should read: The paper said "we made a mistake" in charging MoveOn.org the standby rate... Do you agree? — Becksguy 10:01, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how the wording "improperly charging" differs from "made a mistake in charging". They mean the same thing. If a cashier charged me $15.00 for a $1.50 donut, he or she both "made a mistake" and "improperly charged" me. Revolutionaryluddite 15:51, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

• There is a difference. Mistake implies that an unintentional error was made, and that is what the NYT admitted to. Improper includes unethical conduct as a meaning, and does not exclude intentional behavior. This is POV. Using your example: If the cashier over charged intentionally, that's improper. But if the overcharge was unintentional, that's a mistake. Big difference in implication. After reading the caption, readers might walk away thinking NYT admitted that it gave Moveon a reduced rate as a result of agreeing with their message, rather than just making a mistake in not being clear that the run date was not guaranteed. NYT said mistake, not improper. The word improper is unacceptable in this context. — Becksguy 21:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

• To BecksGuy, thank you for your kind words. Come Grasshopper, and I will show you the power of the Dark Side. ; )
  • You have me on the word improper. That word is mine and not NYT's. However, the word mistake implies good faith which can't be known. Perhaps, the appropriate word would be incorrect/inappropriate or even undercharged. While most will reasonably believe that NYT admitted to impropriety, there is no need for us to give them a shove in that direction.--JoeFriday ^(talk) 22:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I see Becksguy's point. I think that the word "inproper" should be replaced with 'incorrect' and un-bolded. Revolutionaryluddite 00:16, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

• While I still think using the NYT quote is using a reliably sourced quotation, and the most neutral, I will agree in the spirit of building consensus to using incorrect per Revolutionaryluddite and JoeFriday. I have a concern in keeping WP from getting embroiled in the political sandstorm swirling around the ad, and that includes avoiding the perception of editorializing. Thank you. — Becksguy 00:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

• Out of curiosity, why is all of this information about MoveOn and this ad included in the Petraeus article? If there's this much discussion about the MoveOn ad, shouldn't a separate page be made for the ad? I also don't think the descriptions of MoveOn (ie anti-war, liberal, interest group...) belong in the caption of the Petraeus ad on Petraeus' page. Shouldn't MoveOn's link be enough for people to figure out what MoveOn is? Not to mention that MoveOn isn't a pacifist organization, and it is not explicitly anti-war. MoveOn is anti-this-Iraq-War. There's a difference. Next is the ad's pricing. Again, it doesn't really belong on this page. If you want to make the accusation that NYT intentionally charged MoveOn less because they're on the left with political views, then add it to the NYT page, not here. It doesn't add to an article about Petraeus. Then we get into what other people think of the ad (presidential candidates, senators, etc). It doesn't add anything to an article on Petraeus. The whole block reads like a slam on MoveOn, NYT and more generally, just a multi-faceted ramble of information very weakly related to Petraeus. Bbrown8370 17:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

My advice would be that a lot of this information needs to be cut. First, the adjectives for MoveOn don't need to be included. MoveOn is linked, and people can draw their own conclusions about MoveOn from that page. Move the pricing disputes for the add to the NYT page, or make a new page for the Petraeus ad and include it there. The criticisms of the ad by lawmakers and presidential candidates should be cut from this page. If a new Petraeus ad page is created, they could be included there. Bbrown8370 17:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Why delete the information? Why not move it to the report's page? Revolutionaryluddite 17:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that. I just think it detracts from a page about Petraeus. The info doesn't belong here, but easily could go elsewhere. Granted, I still don't like liberal and anti-war describing MoveOn, because anti-war is not exactly accurate, and the word liberal has turned into a label since a lot of people have a negative connotation with the word liberal. Progressive would be a better word. Still, that's just semantics. My main point is that the info is superfluous here and is obfuscatory here. Bbrown8370 18:21, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

A lot of anti-war liberals do not consider "liberal" or "antiwar" to be insulting. What's wrong with those terms? Revolutionaryluddite 18:31, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, antiwar is an easy one. My complaint is not that anti-war is insulting, it is that MoveOn isn't antiwar. MoveOn has opposed the current US war with Iraq. That does not make the organization anti-war. Opposition to a particular war does not make an entity anti-war. If that was the standard required for the term anti-war, virtually everyone would be anti-war because there have been a lot of pretty bad wars waged throughout history. I would reserve the use of anti-war for pacifist entities that oppose war in all cases based on the criticism of war itself, not just war's use in a particular conflict. Bbrown8370 19:27, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

As for liberal, it's really a semantics issue. It's not that liberal people have any problem with the word. The issue is that conservative people use the word as a way to associate past objections to liberal ideas with new ideas (that have yet to be judged on their merits as liberal or conservative or progressive or whatever). The word has turned into a label, and I'd refrain from using it here. Besides, it doesn't add to the Petraeus article to call MoveOn liberal. Bbrown8370 19:27, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

But there's a double standard here. Organizations such as focus on the family, Concerned Women for America, the National Rifle Association, Citizens Against Government Waste, and so on are labeled "conservative" or even "ultraconservative". Organizations such as Moveon.org are generally left without adjectives. This kind of slient, uninentional bias is frustrating as a reader. Revolutionaryluddite 02:52, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Reply to Bbrown8370, I disagree regarding the terms anti-war and liberal.

• First of all, the common connotation for anti-war is not pacifists who oppose all war. Most people associate that with the actual term Pacifists. The common connotation for anti-war is in fact accurate for MoveOn if not what you had in mind. That is a leftist movement aimed at weakening the resolve of the U.S. and other Western Nations in their struggles with Communist/Islamist countries/movements that have announced an intent to destroy us or a perception of us as their primary enemy. There were no anti-war demonstrators during the Bosnian affair because the U.S. was defending Islamists and destroying their enemies and permanently alienating Russia all things that the left needs, wants, and works for.
• Secondly, Liberal is a confusing term because it meant something entirely different historically and outside the U.S. The present day use of the term Liberal to describe an American political movement/ideology stemmed from the efforts of Socialists to change their image via the use of political framing. The same practice is done when the Soviets referred to themselves as Socialists rather than Communists. The term progressive should be not be used as it properly refers to Teddy Roosevelt's progressives of a century earlier. While it is certainly related to todays Liberals, it is substantiantly different. Those who call themselves Progressive like those we refer to as anti-war are Socialists in a broader sense. The Europeans might refer to them as Social Liberals but their essence is to paraphrase Galbraith "the leftmost viable option." The choice of the word progressive may be an effort to escape the pejorative character that liberal has assumed. However, liberal has only become pejorative after being associated with leftists. The same is true for words like gauche or sinister which simply mean left. In 20 years, we will be debating the pejorative nature of the word Progressive. If you change your name frequently, because you think it is pejorative, the problem is you not the name.--JoeFriday ^(talk) 05:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how to even respond in a polite way. If I could I would. That being said, the bulk of what you wrote is complete fiction. Okay, so there's a disagreement about the words anti-war and liberal. They are words with different meanings, and I feel that they do not accurately describe MoveOn. What in the world are you talking about when you refer to leftist movement aimed at weakening the resolve of the U.S. and other Western Nations in their struggles with Communist/Islamist countries/movements that have announced an intent to destroy us or a perception of us as their primary enemy? That's one of the biggest POV sentences I've seen in my life. Weaking the resolve? Are you serious? I mean, really, are you serious? This is absolute POV. There were no anti-war demonstrators during the Bosnian affair is also complete fiction. The degree of protests were lower for that war than for the Iraq War, but there were still protests from the left. Veteran anti-war campaigners such as Noam Chomsky, Edward Said, Justin Raimondo, and Tariq Ali were prominent in opposing the campaign [Kosovo_War]. Then you further reach by concluding that because the U.S. was defending Islamists and destroying their enemies and permanently alienating Russia all things that the left needs, wants, and works for. Complete fiction. Complete POV. Are you serious? Again, I'm not joking, are you serious with this kind of POV statement? Do you honestly believe that defending Islamists and alienating Russia is all the left needs, wants and works for? First off, I have to point out the obvious problem that Russia under communism is considered way left. Secondly, I'd say that the political right in America has done a lot to alienate Russia in recent days. Note the anti-ballistic missile shield we're deploying in Europe and Russia's reaction. By the way, check out Wiki's article on Left-Right_politics. I read a lot of things that the left is in favor of on that page, none of which are defending Islamists and destroying their enemies. Should we rework that article, or are you complete incorrect?

*On the liberal issue, how about we take a look at MoveOn's wiki article? MoveOn is a progressive public policy organization is how it starts. Does that page need rework, too? The page contains the word liberal once (talking about contributors). MoveOn's webpage also does not describe the organization as liberal. Their website uses the term progressive. The adjective liberal is POV. We aren't calling MoveOn gauche or sinister. When words evolve into labels, they become less descriptive and more categorizing. Besides that, these adjectives simply are not needed on Petraeus' page. It's a debate about how to describe MoveOn. This belongs on the MoveOn page. Not Petraeus' page. The MoveOn sidebox caption doesn't need to describe MoveOn. It does not add to an article about Petraeus. Bbrown8370 16:26, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• I think the claim of a double standard isn't necessarily true. Moveon.org is often labeled liberal or anti-war in the press. For example: in The New York Times as "a liberal antiwar organization" on 9-26, in Editor & Publisher as "the liberal organization" on 9-24, in The Seattle Times as a "overzealous liberal group" on 9-24, and in Fox News as a "liberal antiwar group" on 9-10. — Becksguy 07:16, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Good edit, Bbrown8370... I don't know who decided that the caption for the picture should be turned into a 'sidebar', but a simple caption is more appropriate. Dlabtot 16:44, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Moveon.org is often labeled liberal or anti-war in the press. Wait: If the New York Times calls moveon.org a 'liberal anti-war organization', why can't we? Revolutionaryluddite 20:39, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

An AP story from today also uses the L word. Revolutionaryluddite 21:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I am singularly uninterested in whether or not Move On should be labeled as 'liberal'. Such a debate seems more appropriate for Move On's own article. But the unending nature of this debate, as well as the infinite number of similarly pointless ways spin could be introduced through what should be a simple caption, by both sides, shows how every photo caption in a controversial article could be expanded into a 'sidebar' in which endless POV debates are rehashed, if the editors are unable to exercise restraint. FWIW, I would go with an even more neutral wording, changing "A full page political advertisement by Moveon.org in The New York Times accusing the general of cooking the books for the White House." to "A controversial full page political advertisement by Moveon.org in The New York Times."Dlabtot 21:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Heh, you got your edit in before me. I wrote:

Well, it's not on MoveOn's wiki page. I haven't read the discussion over on that page to know why not. That is the appropriate place to have that discussion. If there aren't objections over there, then I guess it would be an available adjective to use here. Still, it's superfluous here. We don't need to include MoveOn's whole wiki article in a sidebox on Petraeus' page. Or any of it. Bbrown8370 21:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm changing the caption to what you suggested. Bbrown8370 21:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

It seems like you and Revolutionaryluddite are in danger of getting in an edit war. I'll just add that mentioning that they are 'liberal', or 'anti-war', in a photo caption is like mentioning 'democratically-elected' in a photo caption under a picture of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - it's true, but obviously mentioned in order to push a certain POV. Unlike the Ahmadinejad example, though, it's also so well known that it's like reminding people that water is wet. Which is why I don't care one way or the other - the whole article is so hopelessly POV that I don't think many people are gonna take it seriously. With time - let's say after Petraeus has retired for a few years - it will eventually be an encyclopedic article. Dlabtot 21:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

General Betray Us

Currently, typing in the above ('General Betray Us') it redirects here. I think that this redirect is inappropriate as it is not a common nickname for the General, it is simply a name used in a bitter attack on him and his character. Shouldn't General Betray Us be a redirect to a page on the Petraeus ad controversy? Would anyone like to try to break off that page? TaylorSAllen 10:53, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The nickname may be pejorative, but it's a common one. I don't think that having it as a redirect to this page means anything editorally. 'Pro-abortion' redirects to 'pro-choice'. Revolutionaryluddite 15:56, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Is there a page on the Petraeus ad controversy? If so, it's reasonable to send the link there. If not, where else would it go but here? Besides, like many pejoratives, it seems to have backfired. I expect that it will be remarked upon by the GOP, and not by the DNC, in the coming election.--JoeFriday ^(talk) 22:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Its commonly noted, but not commonly used. Basically, I'm saying that we ought to have a seperate page for the GEN Betray Us controversy. Like I said, I'm only aware of a single actual usage of that nickname (the now-infamous advert in the NYT) and I think that having it redirect here does imply something about him distinct. Pro-abortion is not necessarily offensive to someone who is pro-choice. Calling the man GEN Betray Us in person would probably result in swift and painful action by him (assuming he doesn't mind losing his job, of course). TaylorSAllen 00:44, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I defy you to find anyone who would not be offended to be labeled pro-abortion. Dlabtot 00:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I oppose the creation of a new page. There's nothing about the controversy that is really unique. Any notable criticism and/or response to Petreaus' report should be mentioned in the report's own article. Revolutionaryluddite 01:21, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

• The distinction between Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion is an artifice of political framing as shown in Pro-choice vs. Pro-life.--JoeFriday ^(talk) 01:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the idea that being 'pro-choice' is the same thing as being 'pro-abortion'. The Chinese government wouldn't mind being called 'pro-abortion'; see [10] and [11] and [12]. Revolutionaryluddite 02:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with Revolutionaryluddite. There is no reason to have a separate article at this time (and one doesn't exist). However, considering all the political and press coverage (Congressional resolution, votes, call for investigation, White House statement, and all the rest), I think it's reasonable to have a separate section within the David Petraeus article about the controversial Moveon.org advertisement. Do we agree? If that section gets too big or complex in relationship to the rest of the article at some point in the future, then it can be split off, assuming consensus. But, interesting as it is, why is abortion being discussed here (it was just an analogy)? — Becksguy 04:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the infromation about the ad's controversy should be on the report's page instead of this one. I don't feel strongly about it, though, since it's a developing story. Revolutionaryluddite 18:11, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Missing Weapons

I see no mention of the large quantity of weapons that went missing in Iraq in this article. The weapons were originally given to Iraqi security forces at a time when General Petraeus was overseeing the creation/reconstitution of the Iraqi security forces. I think this should be included. [13][14] What do others think? Bbrown8370 17:51, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that the information is important and notable, but it belongs in the Timeline_of_the_Iraq_War#2004:_The_insurgency_expands page or another page generally about the coalition operations. Revolutionaryluddite 18:01, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The timeframe that these missing weapons were distributed was 2004-2005, well before the 2007 troop surge. Furthermore, these weapons had nothing to do with the troops surge of 2007. These weapons were used to arm Iraqi security forces, not the 30,000 additional US troops sent in the surge. I think it belongs in the 2003-2004 section of this article where there is some discussion of Iraqi security forces. Granted, the weapons weren't recognized as missing until 2007, but it seems to me like this is really more an issue of 2004-2005 than the 2007 troop surge. Bbrown8370 18:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

My inital reference to the troop surge article was accidental. Sorry about that. Revolutionaryluddite 18:16, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

A page like Timeline_of_the_Iraq_War#2004:_The_insurgency_expands makes more sense to me. Revolutionaryluddite 18:17, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I had re-edited my first comment to include the proper link after you had read it; sorry. Revolutionaryluddite 18:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah, okay, no problem. Yes, that page does make more sense. I still think a smaller comment belongs on this page, though. The last paragraph in the 2003-2004 section on this page talks about criticism of Petraeus' role in overseeing/creating Iraqi security forces. The paragraph has a bunch of citation needed links without citing anything. Even more surprisingly, it has direct quotes that aren't cited by anything. The info about the missing weapons is a much more detailed and documented criticism of his role in training and arming Iraqi security forces. As for the other stuff in that paragraph, it needs citation or needs removal. I don't care which. Bbrown8370 18:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the unsourced statements should be removed. Revolutionaryluddite 20:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the unsourced statements. I have added the tidbit about missing weapons. Bbrown8370 16:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup Issues

I am removing the Pew Research poll results about Petraeus' report to congress. The poll is misleading. The question asked which yeilded the 57% favorable response characterized Petraeus' recommendations as a withdrawl, which is why it received a majority favorable response. In the same poll, 54% of Americans said that America should bring troops home. Petraeus' recommendation was not a withdrawal, but more of a slight decrease in troops over the next 10 months. It's plain to see (considering the 75% of respondents to knew "a little" or less about Petraeus' report) that the results of a question characterizing Petraeus' recommendations as a withdrawal would match closely with more general questions about withdrawal. Furthermore, other polls, one taken just before Petraeus' report [15] show that 54% of respondents want the US out of Iraq in less than a year and 24% more want the US out of Iraq in 1-2 years. These are not the recommendations of Petraeus. The poll's results don't make sense. I'm removing the poll results because the results of these polls seem to differ greatly based on questions are phrased. Bbrown8370 17:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Just because the Pew Research poll disagrees with the pre-report polls doesn't mean that it's inherently wrong. Please read those polls and the polls on the report's page in their entirety. Revolutionaryluddite 20:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

See [16] and [17] and [18] and [19] and [20]. It's an exaggeration to say that the American people support an immediate, John Murtha-style 100% removal of troops from Iraq. While most Americans favor 'withdrawl'- define withdrawl. Some Americans accept the reccomendations of the Iraq Study Group, some favor the "partial redeployment" plans advocated by Barack Obama and John Kerry, and some Americans support the surge. My point is that the American people are mixed and divided on the Iraq War and most polls reflect this. Revolutionaryluddite 20:36, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree entirely that just because the Pew Research poll disagrees with the pre-report polls doesn't imply that it is incorrect. It may be that Petraeus' presentation to Congress swayed the American public to look favorably on the notion that in July of 2008 there will still be ~130,000 US troops in Iraq. Counter to this though, is the quote from the Pew research poll most people say that the general's testimony had no impact on their overall view of the situation in Iraq. Moreover, a detailed question about troop levels was not the question that was asked. The question in the poll is flawed because it characterized Petraeus' recommendations as a withdrawal. This may seems like independent research on my part or me just not agreeing with a reliable source, but that isn't what I'm trying to do. Perhaps it would be better to wait until more polls come out that can validate that the public views Petraeus' recommendations favorably when not described as "withdrawal" and instead described in more detail. Bbrown8370 21:07, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Concerning your second comment, I agree that it's well documented that the majority of the US public does not want an immediate 100% withdrawal. I'm certainly not trying to say that. There is some ambiguity about the term withdrawal. My point is that that ambiguity in the word withdrawal is why Petraeus' recommendations polled so favorably in the Pew poll. The NYT poll I cited doesn't use the term withdrawal and instead asks about how much longer should the US have large numbers of US troops in Iraq. Granted "large numbers" isn't much less ambiguous, but I'd say 75% of current troop levels is still large numbers. If that assumption is true, it shows that the public is definitely in favor of some form of withdrawal that is more of a withdrawal than Petraeus' recommendations. Bbrown8370 21:07, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Still though, solving the question of exactly what the frustratingly ambiguous terms "large numbers" or "withdrawl" means is OR on our part. Revolutionaryluddite 21:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, I changed my mind about the poll's inclusion. The information, like the information about the Moveon.org controversy, really doesn't belong on this page. Revolutionaryluddite 21:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Archive?

This talk page is pretty long. I think that the archiving process should be started. Revolutionaryluddite 21:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I have no idea how to archive the old stuff, but yeah, this page is too big. Older stuff needs to be archived. Bbrown8370 21:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Strangely Long

I love how the GOP hacks have beefed up Petraeus' page to gargantuan lengths in order to somehow help create more credibility for General Petraeus. Compare it to the articles for Sanchez or Tommy Franks, this one is simply huge in comparison. It is a sad commentary on the state of affairs that the GOP and the White House have to totally pimp an honorable career military man in order to try and ram their desired outcomes down the throats of Americans. It is absolutely shameful. Bluefield 21:48, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

It will be interesting to come back to this page in five years and see how much of this is still considered notable. Dlabtot 21:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

-I don't really see what this has to do with the article, but since we're commenting, I'll join in. -First, I doubt that the White House nor the actual GOP care at all about Wikipedia. I do think that Wikipedia has some liberal bias, of course, not that I mind that much as I mostly edit historical articles. Looking at todays featured article ( Hannah Primrose, Countess of Rosebery ), their will always be strange people willing to expand articles on minor issues, much less actually important ones, to ungodly length. Noting that her husband's article is shorter ( Archibald Primrose, 5th Earl of Rosebery ) by over 35,000 words (see http://www.wikigroaning.com/index.php?value1=Hannah%20Primrose,%20Countess%20of%20Rosebery&value2=Archibald%20Primrose,%205th%20Earl%20of%20Rosebery ) I'd say that this article isn't that ridiculous by our own standards. Also, I should note that Primrose is basically a minor figure in history, especially in terms of recent history, and that his wife is not really a major figure at all, she died young. -Also, I'm quite sure most of it will still be considered notable. The situation in the Middle East isn't just going to end, of course, and I'm quite sure that Petraeus will be rememberd as one of the heroes or the failures (in my preference, the former so far) of the War in Iraq. -I'm going to make a comparison here. See http://www.wikigroaning.com/index.php?value1=David%20Petraeus&value2=War%20in%20Iraq . Now see http://www.wikigroaning.com/index.php?value1=Adolf%20Hitler&value2=WWII . Seems to me like Petraeus, as the top man in Iraq, while far from comparable to Hitler as a person, is still pretty danmed important. -Considering the fact that Iraq will be seen in future years as the defining element in US foreign policy of this era, unless China's next, of course, I think that the lenght of this article is completely appropriate. As of now, Petraeus is the military cheif in Iraq. I can't imagine a more appropriate article to expand upon. -Then again, considering that all politically-related talk pages these days become all to quickly political rants: may I suggest we expand Criticism of Wikipedia? TaylorSAllen 00:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)