Talk:Germany

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Right-Wing Crime?

I know there have been highly visible crimes recently (though most of them have been cleared from hardcore right-wing influence after the investigations and the media hype), but does it have to be mentioned within the "Demographics"-Part of the article? I can't seem to remember reading anything like that in articles regarding Poland, Hungary, Russia or many other countries whose crime rate with a nationalistic/right-wing/nazi background is way higher.

And trust me, I'm not trying to kinda "dub" this problem at all. It just appears to me slightly misleading, at least compared to other articles missing information regarding this matter. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.100.47.61 (talk) 12:23, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Ranked fourth in military spending

Now, I know that there are a couple of footnotes that verify that Germany is ranked fourth in its defense budget, but the article that it is linked to claims that it is fifth. 4 and 5 are pretty close though. 172.166.201.130 16:43, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Existing references apparently way out of date. Replaced with referenced information (seventh) based on SIPRI figures for 2006. --Boson 22:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

For those who doubt the numbers: Sources and methods for SIPRI military expenditure data Lars T. 11:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Huge lack of information

I really wonder why this article is featured: It contains nothing about traffic and transport as like as nothing about media in Germany. There is nothing about language(s) and dialects; nothing about minorities. There seems to be only one aim in the en.wikipedia: The 32 Kilobytes limiting value! Completion is secondary. But completion is the basement of quality.

I bring this up because we try to realign the de.wikipedia article which is much more comprehensive and detailed. But being short by incompletion does not raise the en.wikipedia article to be a archetype although it is featured. I support limited article sizes but I really can not use this article as an example in argumentation. Geo-Loge 11:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Administrative divisions (language)

May I ask why both the map and the table use the German names for cities and states exclusively? A few month ago there was a second column with the English names for states and cites, why was that removed? This is the English language Wikipedia after all. -- EnemyOfTheState 13:09, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation (Footnote 1)

There is no reliable source for pronunciation variants in Standard German. German pronunciation dictionaries give no individual variants and must therefore be seen as rather prescriptive. Variants given in the foreword are by no means complete and should not be given so much attention here. -- Grapelli 07:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the footnote (which I originally inserted). I put it in because incorrrect changes were being made to the pronunciation. At the time, I thought the reference to the foreword necessary because the entry by itself is misleading.But I agree, it should not be given so much attention.--Boson 11:42, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Food

there is nothing about the delicious german food- germany and especially south-western germany has a very long tradition of excellent food. furthermore i suppose to add some information about the huge variety of german dialects - it might be interesting for the readers to know that germans coming from different regions of the country often don't undertand each other.

finally, how about fifa-world championship 2006 and the german's hospitality towards their visitors - the WC 2006 was a quite unique and maybe revolutionary one compared to it'S predecessors.

thanx

hi

why did you revert my change on the Germany page with the map? I think the imagemap version is useful, because you can get to the pages through clicking on the different parts of the map. Template:GermanyImagemap2

Can I put it back; - now it has the same proportions.

(width= 310px) Csörföly D 20:15, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
hey... :) nice

Federal Republic of Germany

Federal Republic of Germany now redirects here. The article on Petersberg Agreement links to Federal Republic of Germany. Was there a Federal Republic of Germany in 1949?

The problem here is, that we do not have an article on the history of the Federal Republic of Germany. We have West Germany, but it concentrates on the German Economic Miracle and comparisons to East Germany. There is no material on the political history of Western Germany 1945 - 1955.

• How and why did Germany became a federal state?
• When was it first called the Federal Republic of Germany?

-- Petri Krohn 05:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC) P.S. I created redirects for Herrenchiemsee Convent and Parliamentary Council of 1948, but in fact these should point to the same article. -- Petri Krohn 06:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

See in the info box: Federal Republic — 23 May 1949. For more information see the German article de:Geschichte der Bundesrepublik Deutschland (1945–1990) Lars T. 23:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Population ranks

Daniel Chiswick has recently added a mention to the article that Germany has the second largest population in Europe in addition to having the largest pop in the EU. Lear21, however, reverted his edits stating that the mention of Russia was "redundant info" and no applicable given the sentence's context. I personally think that stating Germany to have the largest pop in the EU and second largest in Europe overall is quite reasonable. I would appreciate it if consensus could be found here on the talk page, rathe than the edit summaries ;-). Regards, Signature^brendel 18:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree, there is nothing wrong with stating Germany has the largest population in the EU and the second largest in Europe overall. I mean it is a fact, so why not list it? Daniel Chiswick 15 June, 2007.

Oppose: a) Comparisons country/country are generally not standard in country articles intro /This is FA quality b) Germany´s mentioned rank within the EU is due to its complex relationship; Russia is not EU c) Russia is two third asia and can´t be mentioned without citing further details d) The introduction only presents information addressed later in the sections. This is not the case, it´s redundant e) World rankings are already extensively mentioned in the introduction, another is not needed. Lear 21 21:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

So what if Russia has territory in Asia? It is a European country and the vast majority of it's population lives in European Russia. If you wanted to talk about a country that is not European at all and has the majority of it's people and territory in Asia all you need to do is look at Turkey. Also saying Germany has the second largest population in Europe is not a comparison, it is a fact. Germany is a country and not some province of the EU, so there is not reason why not to say it has the second largest population in Europe. Daniel Chiswick 15 June, 2007.

I agree that it is reasonable to mention that Germany has the second largest population in Europe. However when comparing it with the Russian population it should be made clear that the population of Germany is being compared with the population of the European part of Russia; comparing it with the total population of Russia, including the Asian part, would be invalid for this statement. For this purpose, a citation giving the population of the European part of Russia is necessary. We should not leave it to the reader to look for this information. Because of the complications, this does not belong in the intro.--Boson 22:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

True, the statement could be brought up in the demographics section. As for Euro-russia's population it is an estimated 78% of the country's total population, ca. 113 million - making Russia Europe's largest country by a 20 to 30 million population margin [1]. Signature^brendel 22:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that the brief mention of Russia's population fits quite well in the intro, so that casual readers don't have to skim thtough the article to find it. Daniel Chiswick 15 June, 2007.

Germany are not a second largest country in Europe !!! Bigest is, for example, Sweden :)

Germany's dealing with its past

Is there an Article or a section about the german people ways of reflecting their "problematic" sections of history?

What the Germans call Vergangenheitsbewältigung --Boson 17:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

New European vector maps

You're invite to discuss a new series of vector maps to replace those currently used in Country infoboxes: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries#New European vector maps. Thanks/wangi 12:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC) hitler was a problem —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.178.155 (talk) 19:09, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Territorial changes of Germany

I am having a debate with User:Aborvegyro regarding his desire to add information about "Territorial losses from the Middle Ages to modern times" to Territorial changes of Germany.

My stance is that Territorial changes of Germany is about changes to the territorial borders of Germany after the formation of the German Empire in 1871. User:Aborvegyro disagrees. Please refer to the discussion on Talk:Territorial changes of Germany and express your opinion there.

Thank you.

--Richard 08:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

"Infrastructure" inaccuracy and out of date "economy"

In the "Infrastructure" article has statistics about Germany's energy production sources that are different from the statistics in the "Economy" section. I can't figure out how to edit the "Infrastructure" section. Also, there are more up-to-date statistics available at <http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/Germany/Electricity.html>, but they are rounded off to the nearest hole number. I don't know where the 3 digit statistics came from, but if more up-to-date information isn't available there than maybe they should just use the statistics from the page I referenced to update the statistics for Germany and other countries with out-of-date statistics in this area.

Is Shanghai in Germany?

One Question: Why is a Shanghai Transrapid picture used as Infrastructure of or in germany? I suggest to change the image and to take the suggested showing use and users of a successful and recent german technology invention (Tram-train which is praised and accepted worldwide as well in the country) and is about modern germany and its people, as the main article.

Tram-train System in Heilbronn

By its central position in Europe, Germany is an important transportation hub. This is reflected in its dense and modern infrastructure networks.

Probably most famous is the extensive motorway (Autobahn) system that ranks worldwide third largest in its total length and features lack of blanket speed limits on the majority of routes. However the widespread railway network and modern public transport systems allow visitors and inhabitants to travel freely along the country without a car.

--Polentario 02:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

The Transrapid was "invented" or engineered in Germany and then there were about 20 years of discussion if they should actually build it. Of course the picture shows the Shanghai Transrapid but it is certainly German technology and part of German "discussion culture" :) --217.86.148.253 14:36, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Motto??

Since I haven't gotten a reply for a month after having posted this question on the talk page of Deutschlandlied ("Motto"), I ask again here:

A quick internet search didn't get me any closer to finding a source for the purported "motto" of Germany. As I've never heard about a "motto" before, I'd like to ask here: Can anyone name a reference for the phrase having any official meaning, let alone being a "motto" of Germany? To my knowledge, it's simply a well-known phrase (similar to Allons enfants de la patrie, God bless America, America the Beautiful, and other lines like that...), which is catchy, the beginning of the anthem and thus has been printed on that official stuff like coins etc. --Ibn Battuta 13:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

It is mentioned in the article, the official "Motto" of Germany is "Unity and justice and freedom" ("Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit") 83.135.169.138 22:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

It does not appear to be an official motto in the sense that it has been laid down by statute or exchange of notes. Perhaps one should add a footnote that it is the de facto motto, used on coins etc. Other states have similar footnotes, explaining what is meant by "motto". --Boson 05:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

It's printed on the waist belt worn in the army, so I would say it is official.

There aint no official motto. The sort of inofficial but somewhat real motto I would consider is the following quote of Richard Wagner / Kurt Tucholsky : "Deutsch sein, heißt eine Sache um ihrer selbst willen tun", <<being German means to do something just on principle>> --Polentario 02:29, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no Motto in Germany. In my opinion it is not even a defacto motto. And I dont think wikipedia should make up one: the category should be left open; or there should be the hint: "no official motto". the belt of the army is not a good reference. The other suggested motto: "being german means to do something just on principle" is a nice sentence, howerver it is a bad/misleading translation of Wagner. Why should it be the mott? Nice as a joke about Germans, but not a motto. (japjap)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.177.73.95 (talk • contribs) 20:25, July 29, 2007 (UTC).

"Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" is also on our Euro-Coins. It is the de facto moto. —Preceding unsigned comment added by H34d.k4nzl3r (talk • contribs) 11:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Wernher von Braun

What about Wernher von Braun no mention of him. The Americans would not have made it into space without him. -- unsigned

This is about Germany and not about America. There are many famous Germans, and to try to list them would, I'm sure violate Wikipedia NPOV rules. For example trying to rank Germans by famous-ness, or 'importance' is not objectively possible. Stestagg 21:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Werher von Braun could be mentioned in the science section for inventig rocketsystems, such like the V2 and his major contribution to american space projekts, making his dream of flying to the moon possible. -- unsigned 23:11, 27 Sep 2007 (GMT+1)

Error and clarification

Under Education, it says school is compulsory for 10 years, but in general, it's 9 years (maybe some states have different laws there).

Also it says that military service is compulsory, wich is technicaly true, but may be misleading to non-germans. I think it should better say "compulsory in theory", because refusing and doing alternative service is extremely easy and requires only a formality. Also very large numbers of able men are never being draft at all.

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

May I point out that Mozart was born in what was then archbishopric of Salzburg, which is now part of Austria. While Mozart himself will have considered himself a German without question, mentioning Mozart in the context of "Germany (referring to the German state as it is today) claims some of the world's most renowned classical music composers..." is incorrect. I would suggest to mention Johannes Brahms or Felix Mendelssohn Bartholdy instead.

There have been a lot of discussions about this point. The problem here is tricky: If you call Mozart an Austrian it is historically inaccurate – but if you consider him a German citizen, it is historically incorrect as well! It’s a bit of a DILEMMA! In my opinion the cleverest approach to solve this problem is to describe the phenomenon, that there are some historical figures which can not be counted as German citizens but must be seen in the socio-cultural context of Germany to understand their historical situation, work and their social relations. People like Mozart, Franz Kafka, Paul Celan etc. --Sushi Leone 09:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

But in the end, Mozart talked of himself as a German, never as an Austrian. Lars T. 18:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

While I recognise the dilemma, I still think that the article in question deals predominantly with today's political state "Federal Republic of Germany" and therefore Mozart should not be mentioned. For the same reason Mozart is deliberately NOT mentioned in the article "Culture of Germany". I mainly object to the phrasing "Germany claims...", which, in the context of this article, is equivalent to "The Federal Republic of Germany claims...". As a compromise I would suggest "German classical composers such as.... are world-renowned". 23:04, 6 August 2007 (GMT)

I agree with you! Mozart should not be mentioned in the phrase “Germany claims..” since Germany can not claim Mozart! In this phrase his name should be replaced by someone like Schumann or Brahms – I mean there are more than enough other excellent composers.

So I renew my suggestion to add a phrase like ”Many historical figures, though not citizens of Germany in the modern sense, must be seen in the context of the German cultural sphere, including Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Franz Kafka and Paul Celan.” This phrase was used in earlier versions of this article and I think it is very clever because it is the most accurate description of this phenomenon!

BTW: Not to mention Mozart in the “Culture of Germany” article might be a compromise but it is misleading as well…… --Sushi Leone 06:39, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

No dissent! So I was bold and changed it! --Sushi Leone 11:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Fine Job Sushi Leone.Tstephan 14:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

P.S.: There is a saying in germany, that the two biggest austrian successes are to make Mozart an austrian and Hilter a german. ;-) Altmark 14:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Culture

What about Karlheinz Stockhausen? --62.134.232.176 23:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Stockhausen could be mentioned as an example of a contemporary fine-art composer.

Basically to the culture/pop-culture section: This is not supposed to be a COMPLETE LISTING of artists coming from Germany! The culture section should give the reader just a brief overview with some concise examples. --Sushi Leone 05:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Maps of Germany with the rest of Europe

I was wondering - does anyone know where I might find a same-scale map of europe, centered on Germany, from about 1914, and from today? I wanted to do a historical comparison there, and I'm having some trouble. If possible, the maps would be simple color, like this one, and have German cities indicated on both. Thanks in advance, --JamesR1701E 02:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

World War II

A picture of the Holocaust to represent suffering that was inflicted on the world and tens of millions killed by Germans would certainly be more important than an image of Berlin in ruins (this is a picture of the aftermath of the war-there is no pictures of the actual War/its effects)--Ilya1166 03:58, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

There already are many articles on the Holocaust - perhaps this image would be more appropriate there? Leuko 04:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

@Ilya: You don't have any idea, do you? Before you send off comments like that you should educate yourself on the matter. It's that typical view of Germans all being Nazis, and all Nazis being bad. If you still believe that, go back to playgroup. Oh, and by the way, the Russians killed easily as many, as did Mao Tse Tung (if you know who that is). FWTTVK 02:10, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Word War II has more than one aspect and had more than one consequence. A lot of those historical facets can be associated with the picture of the destroyed Berlin - so it is perfect and appropriate in an article about Germany --Sushi Leone 17:23, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Deletion vote

Please see the deletion vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of German Americans. Badagnani 03:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Deletion review

Please see the discussion at Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_September_7#List_of_German_Americans. Badagnani 20:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

booo!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.86.145.61 (talk) 22:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

error in Law/state level

It's "Landgericht", not "Landesgericht". My account is new, so I can't correct it myself. --d2dMiles 06:50, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Correct. I've changed Landesgerichte and Oberlandesgerichte to Landgerichte and Oberlandgerichte. —YourEyesOnly 06:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Good thought, but you should never count on logic when dealing with German ;). It's Landgericht, but Oberlandesgericht. --d2dMiles 07:16, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Corrected. --Orangerider 08:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Constitution

Little hint from the German WP: There's another aspect of the Grundgesetz that's protected from change, besides the ones mentioned here, which, I believe, is also fairly important: The structure of Germany as a federal state, as opposed to a unitary one. This means, that the states of Germany cannot be abolished, or downgraded to mere administrative districts by a simple constitutional amendment. A completely new constitution would have to replace the existing one, for that to happen.

Greetings --84.189.221.98 09:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC) (Rübenmensch)

Wikipedia's widest image?

It's a collage, but maybe you want to consider using the image Image:Deutschlandreise fuer Rauenstein.jpg. You would have to use the {{wide image}} template .

{{wide image|Deutschlandreise fuer Rauenstein.jpg|3000px|formatted with 3000px}} __meco 22:12, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

This image is 1.7 MB in size in the 3000px wide version. Not everyone has a broadband connection, and I think a loading time of 30 seconds (for 56k modem users) is unacceptable. I added <nowiki> around the wide image inclusion above to prevent it from loading here. --Dapeteばか 11:46, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Cinema

There seems to be an inconsistency concerning the titles of the movies named there. Some give the German title only (Das Boot - "The Boat" according to IMDB.com for the dubbed Version), some only give the English title (Run Lola Run - German title "Lola rennt") and some give both as Der Untergang(The Downfall). Maybe someone could straighten this out, or is there a system behind this I am unable to perceive? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.248.198 (talk) 21:53, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Anthem not official

It might (yeah well, i don't care ;) )be worth noting that Germany does not have an anthem officially, by law, that is. The Anthem has only been around for quite some time, and it's introduction to modern Germany was not done by law but by solely a letter from, I think, the german president at that time in the late 40s or 50s. It was a recommendation that has since been taken as some kind of official ruling... The source for this is...Krämer: Lexikon der populären Irrtümer (Encyclopedia of popular misbeliefs). Don't have it here, so I can't quote...Just take this as a "might be interesting" if someone cares to look it up and to varify that information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.11.136.59 (talk) 13:01, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The official anthem was established by an exchange of notes between the Chancellor (the head of government) and the President (the head of state), so it is official but, like most other things, was not established by statute or constitition. In 1952 the anthem was established by an exchange of notes as the "Deutschlandlied", of which only the third stanza was to be sung at official events. Following re-unification, in 1991 the anthem was officially established by the same method as being solely the third stanza. The exchange of notes can be found (in German) on the German government Web site --Boson 15:40, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Great Power

I have removed this claim per WP:PEACOCK. It is POV and conveys no hard information. According to the Great Power article, the claim is specifically not made by Angela Merkel, who calls Germany a middle power. It is better to let the hard facts (membership of G8, permanent seat on UN security council, etc) speak for themselves. Viewfinder 13:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

How comes that you haven´t removed WP:PEACOCK at UK, Japan, Italy. The term Great power still seems to be very much used.