Talk:9/11 conspiracy theories

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Claims related to Jews and Israel

Others go further to suggest that 9/11 was part of an international Jewish conspiracy.

Needs to be changed to

Others go further to suggest that 9/11 was part of an international Zionist conspiracy.

Zionist is not this same as Jewish and the majority of conspiracy theories regarding Israeli involvement identify the international aspect to be Zionist in nature rather than involving world Jewry.
If this change cannot be done and even it if it you must add citation needed next to this specific claim as I have said it does not reflect the majority of conspiracy theories that mention Israel. So in summation, the identification of Zionists as a culprit in 9/11 conspiracy theories is more pertinent and in fact a more widely held view amongst said theorists than the identification of Jews as a culprit and thus it would be more reflective of reality to mention Zionist rather than Jewish if a choice must be made between the two. A sound compromise would simply be the inclusion of 'the Zionist culprit' viewpoint.

Maybe change the heading to Claims related to Zionists and Israel or Claims related to Zionism and Israel or even Claims related to Jews, Zionism/ts, and/or Israel.

I have now made this change. Please sign and date your comments. Thanks, Corleonebrother 17:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Lack of Macroscopic Overview

There seems an intentional exclusion of big-picture focus in this article.

If we assume that no knowledge from any source is trustworthy but the official story, we may still analyze and find a large number of lapses in normal behavior. Any one of the possible 'conspiracy' ideas is shaky by itself and convincingly explained away by some 'expert' statement- but as a whole, the events show one of two things- the attackers were fantastically adept while our entire government played keystone kops, or the official story and the events that day are being mis-represented.

A brief list:

• specious lack of foreknowledge of attacks by all assets of the world's largest power
• extremely fast media releases including names and photos of those responsible, by that same world power's previously inept agencies
• no air response to 4 missing planes
• no call to shoot planes down, or call too late
• no protective action at the Pentagon
• collapse of 3 concrete and steel skyscrapers all within 12 hours - explained by damage, fire
• fantastically small possibility that the accused were capable of the flight necessary to achieve the goals
• historically out-of-character cleanup behavior
• historically out-of-character investigation behavior
• historically out-of-character actions day-of involving protection of president
• persecution of those in positions of power who deny/argue the official story

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wizzlepig (talk • contribs) 21:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe your suggestion would be worthwhile. Anyone willing to cooperate on drafting a section for this? — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 10:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the support, Cor. That's two. It is in fact the big picture which first set off suspicions, on the day itself. (It took -me- three -years- to get suspicious myself) — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 02:44, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

proposal Maybe we could downsize this 131 K article, by letting this article describe the Macroscopic overview, and distributing the other facets (prior warning, collapse, hijacking and intercept, testimonies and statements) over several other articles? But: this would mean a dramatic increase in the number of conspiracy articles, and I seem to recall this was unwanted by some. — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 04:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Besides the points mentioned above, I'd like to note that every article, including the main article on 9/11 on wikipedia, talks about the events as described by the official "story", in a factual tone regardless of how illogical the point being made may be or that the point may have clearly been disproven. While on the other hand some information that has been proven beyond doubt by the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, truthers movement or scientists, is misrepresented in this article by words such as "Claimed" or "Alleged". This article should have the same standards as for any other wikipedia article. Since the "Conspiracy theories" contain a lot of factual information especially the technical information such as the use of thermite, and support to these claims is wide spread since research papers such as the one by Dr. Steven Jones have been accepted by the scientific community, thus any "Claim" that is supported by references and is proven beyond doubt with evidence by whomever (theorist or scientist etc) should be represented in a factual tone/way.

I'll just give one example. Following is Norman Mineta 9/11 Commission testimony

There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?

You know that Mineta was referring to the orders to ground all civilian aircraft, right?CloutierFan02 (talk) 02:39, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

In short, I'd like the WP:NPOV policy to be enforced rather than the USGOV:OFFICIAL_STORY policy. Farqis 09:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

"Official" and "Mainstream"

This and other articles use the terms 'official' account and 'mainstream' account inconsistently and I see there has been a small edit war changing one to the other. Currently, this article states that the two terms are equivalent. If this is correct, which one should we be using here? If this is wrong, what is the difference between them? Corleonebrother 18:32, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I would say that mainstream should be used except when referring to the reports of government agencies and commissions, such as FEMA, NIST, and the 9/11 Commission. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthur Rubin (talk • contribs) 20:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I would say that official should be used as the word mainstream carries the connotation that it is a majority view. It is clear that the "official" account taken as a whole is a minority view (according to RS polls 36%) and you only get a majority if you include those who generally accept the official account but believe the government is covering up some aspects. Wayne 09:19, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

That poll refers to those (36%) who believe the mainstream view in all details. If one disagrees with one detail (whether there was molten metal or mearly glowing embers on an apparently liquid surface), one would not be counted in that 36%, if I recall the poll correctly. Each component of the mainstream view still apparently has majority agreement. It should be noted that all mainstream media agree, in general, with the position, so "mainstream" is still clearly appropriate. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I already said that was what the 36% was. I object to you saying "all mainstream media". All may apply to American media but definately not international. I also point out that one mainstream US reporter who until recently was particulary scathing of conspiracy theorists (as insulting to victims) has now apologised and offered to support 9/11 "truthers" after doing his own research. Using "insulting victims" to debunk conspiracies is particularly insulting to them considering many victims families and rescue workers are active in the "truth" movement. The offical view may generally have majority agreement but it is not a large majority as implied by POV editors. This is why we need to give equal time to all theories, the official version is just one of several and to call it mainstream implies accepting it 100% for which there is no majority. Wayne 07:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Arthur's definitions, though this makes it difficult to work out which one should be used when. I mean, most of the mainstream view is contained in the official reports, so then we should be using 'official' most of the time, shouldn't we? Only in cases where a specific issue is not covered by FEMA, NIST or the Commission would it be incorrect to use 'official'. So what are these cases? Would it be possible to create a list of things that were not dealt with by the official investigators but were looked at by media such as Popular Mechanics? For example, the NIST Report doesn't consider anything past the point where "global collapse was inevitable" - so if we're referring to global collapse features, we should say mainstream. Corleonebrother 13:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, what I intended to say was that we should use "official" only when referring to specific official reports, and "mainstream" referring to the generally accepted view. That makes the choice more clear, as well. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 14:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Unjustified deletion

I would like to invite User: Exander who made this consistent deletion without providing justifications or having discussed it to try to do it now.--Pokipsy76 19:53, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Well I can't speak for Exander, but the paragraph would need to be cited - also it would be better placed under 'Allegations of Cover-up' (a section which needs to be expanded anyway). Corleonebrother 20:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

So do you suggest to restore the paragraph in that section and add the "fact" tag?--Pokipsy76 20:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

No - it looks ugly doing that - why not just cite the facts before putting it in? There are nine references bunched together in the first paragraph of that section. We need to use them to turn that paragraph into something like the paragraph you have (and more), putting each reference next to the sentence that it applies to. Have a go and maybe put it here so that we be sure no-one objects first. Corleonebrother 21:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

The deleted paragraph would need some reliable sources explaining what it is trying to say. Listing hand-picked semi-facts and vague hints in the hope that the reader will draw the desired wrong conclusions and thus become dumber is routinely done by certain web sites; it is not an appropriate device for an encyclopedia. Are there neutral, balanced sources that discuss the issues in the deleted edit, and consider and explain their relation to each other? WP:NOR please. Weregerbil 15:24, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion - External Links

The large number of exterior links might be better handled by creating a separate page for organizing these links in a list, and having a fewer number in this main article. More links to more conspiracy resources and skeptical/debunking material could then be provided on this subsiduary daughter article. Comments?--Filll 18:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather not see any more articles on 9/11 conspiracy theories - we have too many already. I do think the external links should be pruned way back. Part of the problem is the over-reliance on primary sources. Tom Harrison ^Talk 18:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I would beg to differ. In the interests of serving the readership, there is a value to cataloguing the links, as we do on many lists here on WP. This sort of resource is one of the immense benefits of WP. This also would allow the list here on the main article to be reduced to a more manageable level.--Filll 18:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Having checked Tom's edits, I see he has done an incredible yeoman's job of editing these conspiracy articles. It is absolutely staggering what he has contributed. I am duly impressed. However, be that as it may, I still would love a comprehensive list as a resource here.--Filll 19:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I have just reorganised the external links section. I have deleted the following ones as part of my sort out. Here they are in case anyone disputes their removal (my brief reasons for deletion in italics):

• 9/11: Press for Truth - wikilink
• Loose Change - wikilink
• The Great Conspiracy: The 9/11 News Special You Never Saw - text
• "The WTC Conspiracy". Telepolis. Retrieved 2006-07-30. Template:De icon - German
• Why Do You Think They Fireproof Steel Trusses? If steel can't be affected by fire? - very short video
• Sorry Decky11, 9/11 was NOT an "inside job" The WTC towers showed telltale signs they were about to collapse several minutes before each crumbled to the ground. - very short video
• Filibuster cartoons - The Truth About 911 - editorial cartoon mocking 9/11 conspiracy theories. - one page silliness
• Left SanePeople - tiny anonymous webpage
• September Clues - the 9/11 newsmedia coverage
• Video Collection and "9/11 VideoMashups Top 40 Charts" - blog with a few links to short clips
• 911 Videos on Truthhub.com - unrelated site
• Template:Google video - short video
• Call 911 - unrelated page
• High Resolution (700 MB) 911 Mysteries Video - Downloadable - unrelated site
• 9/11 Mysteries Part One: Demolitions - duplicate
• "How Did United Flight 93 Crash?". flight93crash.com. Retrieved 2006-07-30. - site only looks at Flight 93
• "9/11 Conspiracy & Truth Movement News". - link broken

I'd like to get rid of more of them but I'm not really sure what the criteria would be for choosing some over others. There are some important ones missing as well (like the NIST reports) so they should really be added. Corleonebrother 20:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what else should be done with the External Links? If not, should we remove the tag now? Corleonebrother 19:42, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

BBC's response to Building 7 collapse report

I am suggesting an addition under the subject of the theory of a controlled demolition, specifically the piece about the BBC reporting the collapse of Building 7 before its actual collapse. Richard Porter of the BBC offers a response on their own website to the 'misjudgment'. It is a very dodging response and I think clarifies their position in some regards.

So:

Richard Porter, head of news, BBC World, offered a statement concerning the news broadcast (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007/02/part_of_the_conspiracy.html).

---

Leaf, 14:28, 16 September 2007

• Agreed Edkollin 06:10, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Whis is this being deleted?

Arabs involved in 9/11 "cooperated" with Zionists

In an August 30, 2007 interview on the Hezbullah TV network former United States Senator James Abourezk stated that "the Arabs who were involved in 9/11 cooperated with the Zionists. It was a cooperation. They gave them the perfect excuse to denounce all Arabs."

I do not understand why this is repeatedly being deleted. The person as an ex Senator is notable. One deleter interpreted that the Senator was trying to say that the Arabs involved in 9/11 unintentionally helped the Zionists. This may or may not be true but it is not up to us to try to interpret what he “meant” to say that is Original Research. The ex Senator used the word cooperated not once but twice. He never said “unintentionally” or “ironically” or any other qualifier. As far as I know he has not made a later statement clarifying his remarks. We have to go by his words which fits the definition of a 9/11 conspiracy theory whichever way you want to look at it. If somebody can come up with a cite where the man clarifies his remarks I will gladly agree that this is not article worthy. Without that clarification his statement belongs somewhere in the article Edkollin 05:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't speak for the people actually doing the removing, but my opinion is that this article isn't (or at least, shouldn't be) a repository for every kind of conspiracy theory. Indeed, the senator in question may be notable, but his statements themselves aren't necessarily notable. That's my take on it. There needs to be some reliable source showing that this quote isn't just one person airing his views. But you'd have to ask the actual deleters to find out their reasons. --clpo13_(talk) 06:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This comes under the BLP as it shows a biased opinion. Also the source is not notible and even if such a source is found, it should be reliable and should be supported by other reliable secondary sources. Refer to BLP guidelines.Farqis 12:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

polls?

Can someone put a poll summary into the article, for example http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll (or perhaps something better)? I think, how widespread those theories are is very important information about them. On an unrelated note, i think, the "controlled demolition" should be removed from the intro, since it has its own section. The article i linked above also says it is believed only by 16 out of 36 conspiracists, which doesn't qualify as "most of them". 80.109.194.224 22:18, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Here's another on MSNBC website. Farqis 13:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

We have an article dedicated to them: 9/11 opinion polls. No need to choose a single poll to mention, when you can just link to the article that describes all the major ones. Corleonebrother 14:46, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:South WTC Collapse.jpg

Image:South WTC Collapse.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 08:01, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Arthur Rubin: what is THIS deletion about???

Possible support for the practicality of the "remote control" theory is given by the remotely controlled flight of the Global Hawk, a jet powered aircraft of similar size to a 737 which took off from Edwards Air Force Base on the west coast of the U.S. and flew non stop to, and eventually landed at, RAAF Base Edinburgh, South Australia without a pilot in April 2001.

The material deleted (above) seems to be relevant to the topic.

You said "Arthur Rubin (Talk | contribs) (Revert as OR without some Truther claiming that as a reference. Undid revision 162613683 by WLRoss (talk))"

===== whatever THAT means. I can't locate "WP:OR." Are you claiming it's "original research?" It appears to be paraphrasing a news item, which is referenced.

Wowest 10:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The relevance is OR, unless also referenced by a conspiracy theorist. Otherwise, it's just WP:SYN. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

My reason for adding it was that the section currently implies that it is something never done before and is only technically feasable. I suggest that to make it more NPOV some mention should be made that military use of remote control for large aircraft is a fact and to use the link for that instead of detailing the actual event. Wayne 09:12, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, a 737 is five times bigger than an RQ-4 by max takeoff weight. <eleland/talkedits> 00:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Cell phone source

The article which claims that cell phones do work in Airplanes mentions cell phone calls during take off and landing, and cell phones being turned on mid-flight. These are radically different---obviously the writer of this section of the article is trying to put their own opinion on this section and not providing a honest look at this theory. The writing style is ridiculous as well---it biases the reader by first claiming that only select people say it will not work, but that a University claims that it will, even though the source is ridiculous. Might I ask---US Government involvement in the creation of this article? 166.70.99.93 05:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a pre 911 scientific study on cell phone usage in aircraft. It has all the calculations and percentage chance of a call being connected at different altitudes/speeds. This is probably where claims the cell calls were faked comes from as I remember it said chances of calls connecting were very low in the conditions applicable to 911 (I think 10,000 feet was maximum altitude where you had a chance to connect). I'll see if I can find it. Wayne 09:06, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, thank you very much. I have been looking over the Wikipedia article and it really does not do justice to any of the conspiracy theories---it seems to throw all of them down instead of explaining them. An encyclopedia entry should explain things, not explain why they are wrong! Especially not this close to the event; we do not really know what happened in a historical event until at least 70 years past the date. 166.70.99.93 23:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It should throw them down if they are false, as they all are. The point is NPOV, which is different from gullibility. Titanium Dragon (talk) 06:01, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree but they have not been proved to be false. Assuming they are is OR. The problem is that the article is biased towards discrediting CT's while downplaying any evidence for their credibility. For example one sentence lending some support to the possibility of a CT quotes the source as saying "extremely difficult" which gives credence to the OT when in fact the source actually says "impossible" which gives credence to the CT. I edited it but can guarantee that some anti-conspiracy freak will undo it even though it is 100% accurate as it now reads. Manipulating text to discredit CT's only proves that there must be either some substance to the CT claims or a lack of evidence for the OT. I'm all for proving what happened and discount most CT's myself but I still support NPOV treatment even if it conflicts with what I believe. After all....I may be wrong. Wayne (talk) 07:29, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Professor A.K. Dewdney took a variety of cell phones up in small aircraft over an urban area on three occasions in 2003. He derived a formula to predict the probability of a call getting through based on the altitude of the airplane.

http://physics911.net/projectachilles

He predicts that a smaller percentage of calls would get through from a commercial aircraft due the Faraday cage effect from the smaller window area and thicker aluminum skin than on the airplanes he used. Anecdotal evidence from other people, included with his research, indicates that at normal cruising altitude, using 2001 - 2003 technology, no calls get through.

He later speculated on the contents of the calls that allegedly got through here:

http://physics911.net/cellphoneflight93

Wowest 18:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Dewdney is generally considered competent, but it was and is true that the US cell-phone network and the Canadian cell-phone network use different modulations. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

David Ray Griffin also has something relevant to say about these calls, here:

http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2007/10/08/01871.html Wowest 19:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

As I said, Dewdney is generally considered competent. Any inferences I'm making about Griffen are purely intentional. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

According to the official account, Flight 93 made at least 6 air phone calls yet according to Boeing, Flights 93 and 77 did not have air phones fitted. This means any calls from those two aircraft had to be from cell phones. Then we have another strange discrepancy between the official account and the testimony the FBI gave at the Zacarias Moussaoui trial. This goes to the claims cell phones can't connect at high altitudes. Most of the calls were supposedly made at over 30,000 ft. At the Moussaoui trial the FBI's report on the calls from the planes showed only 2 "cell phone" calls actually connected on United 93 and both were made at less than 5,000 ft at 9:58am. US solicitor general Ted Olson said he received two calls from his wife on Flight 77, yet the FBI's testimony at the trial was that Barbara Olsen made one attempted cell call which never connected. I hope someone can prove me in error on this as I can't believe the media would not have picked this up. Wayne 01:09, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

This is inaccurate. Boeing 757s did, in fact, have airphones at the time. There is a lengthy discussion about this on the JREF conspiracy theories sub-forum, complete with documents and other evidence that show that the phones were not deactivated or removed from the planes until some time in 2002 or 2003. I haven't time at the moment to find a precise link to the discussion for you but you can find it by going to www.randi.org then to the forums, then to the Conspiracy Theories sub-forum, and conducting a search. Jazz2006 01:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Last year American Airlines confirmed that flight 77 definately was not fitted with air phones. The FBI (again last year) said that there were no successful cell phone calls from that flight. That flight 93 had them fitted doesn't alter the fact that there are only 2 cell calls from that flight (both under 5K ft so supporting the fact cell phones don't work at altitude) yet the media insist there were probably 8 and possibly 10 (2 calls were reported by some media as air phone and by others as cell phone). If you can find a link would be good as I have never visited conspiracy forums (so have no idea what JREF is). Wayne 02:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced claim

The claim

"U.S. officials, mainstream journalists, and independent researchers generally accepted the conclusion that Al Qaeda is solely responsible for the attacks and the resulting destruction"

say something not trivial and need a source to be stated. Is there any poll supporting the claimed opinion for the mainstrean journalists and US officials? I don't think so and therefore I suggest to correct the claim untill somebody will find a source. Objections?--Pokipsy76 19:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I object. It's accurate, and so well known that finding a specific source would be difficult. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:52, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Well known? How do we know the real opinions of journalists and officials? You can just say that generally you don't see journalists and officials on the TV saying that they believe in a cover up but this does not allow to make the claim above.--Pokipsy76 20:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

You would have cite most major news website's archives quoting the 9/11 commission and NIST or reporting based on assumption that the findings were accurate. You would have to do the same for Bush and members of his administration and leaders of Congress. That would be unreadable and OR. Considering people have lives my bet the project would never get done. Without the claim there the section falls apart. Without that section the article long as it is has no context. Its a catch 22 the section violates Wiki rules. Without the section the article poorly serves the readers. Edkollin 03:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't see how the documentation you are talking about could provide any proof of what mainstream journalists or officials actually believe in general about the eventuality of a cover up, in fact:

1) Journalists are not generally asked to comment facts or make assumptions about them in their articles.

2) Even if a person (journalist or not) would think that NIST and 9/11 commissions are telling the truth (and this is still not provable in general) its still entirely possible for him to believe that there have been a cover up (why should one expect that the investigations show everithing?)

--Pokipsy76 09:31, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Well thats the catch 22 no poll has been or is likely to be done that is why the best you can do is what I say and that is OR. My OR is that the most journalists working for the "mainstream media" when I have seen them interviewed on the topic seem incredulous that they even have to discuss the topic Edkollin 22:01, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to think about that one a bit.... I think it can be better expressed and become NPOV.--Wowest 19:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm ok with the sentence with one exception. I object to using the word "independent". There are 3 groups of researchers.....partisan, independents who have looked at the evidence and those independents who while accepting the conclusion do so without having looked at the evidence. If we exclude that last group then it is a rather large percentage of independent researchers who reject the conclusion. As such the sentence does need a reference if the word "independent" is kept as it implies that the majority of researchers have investigated the evidence and support the conclusion. It is semantic trickery to leave it as is. Wayne 13:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I have doubts that (1) we should eliminate the last group without also eliminating those who reject any mainstream theory in favor of conspiracy theories without looking at the facts, and (2) that we can elminate the last group. I also have doubts that the statement is not true even if we did exclude the last group, but that would seem semantic trickery. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Could you explain on what grounds it is ok to say that "mainstream journalists generally accepted the conclusion that Al Qaeda is solely responsible for the attacks"? Considering that

1) the 9/11 commission report stated that George W. Bush had been "not well served" by the FBI and CIA, so even acording just the report someone must share some part of the responsability at lreast for incompetence.

2) we actually have no way to know the general opinion of mainstream journalists. It wouldn't be strange if journalists that believe in a cover up wouln't be willing to express their opinion to the pubblic.--Pokipsy76 10:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

By that logic, it might be better to say "reported" than "generally accepted". Sheffield Steel^talk_stalk 13:17, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

"Reported" seems to make sense just for the "mainstream journalists", not for the "US officials" or the "independent researcher".--Pokipsy76 20:28, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Instead of "mainstream journalists" change it to "mainstream media". Three prominent journalists were fired several years ago for refusing to publicly support what they knew was a lie and lost a court case they brought for unfair dismissal. The court finding was that it actually was a lie and that their employer knew it was but ruled journalists are legally bound to report their employers view if required. It is probable that many journalists who dispute 911 will not be published by their paper or speak up. I suggest the sentence should read "U.S. officials, mainstream media, and researchers..." to avoid problems. Wayne 15:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

If you say "the theory is not accepted by mainstream media" you would be implying that the media accept or reject theories, while they just have to report facts and relevant opinions. It wouldn't be a good wording.--Pokipsy76 11:07, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Please give a cite for "Three prominent journalists were fired several years ago for refusing to publicly support what they knew was a lie and lost a court case they brought for unfair dismissal", if you think it's relevant. Even so, "mainstream media" may be better, but, because we are using "generally", "mainstream" may be WP:WEASEL wording in that context. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 17:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I didn't give a cite because it did not involve 911. There were actually two cases. In the first FOX fired two news readers for refusing to lie on air about an event due to the subject being a major advertiser with FOX who would be embarrassed by the truth. 2. The other was 3 reporters fired after refusing to lie about WMD in Iraq (the court found FOX knew it was a lie when they reported it as news). The court found that the media are under no obligation to tell the truth in news reports and can fire reporters for not supporting a known lie. The only relevance to this arguement would be the reluctance of reporters to jepardise their jobs by going against their employers views and that FOX is considered mainstream in the US. Wayne 06:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Quote: "the news organization owned by media baron Rupert Murdoch, argued the First Amendment gives broadcasters the right to lie or deliberately distort news reports on the public airwaves. In it's opinion, the Court of Appeal held that the Federal Communications Commission position against news distortion is only a "policy," and they ruled, it is technically not against any law, rule, or regulation to deliberately lie or distort the news on a television broadcast." Considering that the reporters had to pay FOX $1 million after losing their unfair dismissal case this is what is relevant despite it not being related to 911. Wayne 06:27, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The citation being used to justify the claim "# July 29, 2007.

1. ^ Bazant, Zdenek P. and Mathieu Verdure. "Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from World Trade Center and Building Demolitions" in Journal of Engineering Mechanics ASCE, Volume 133, Issue 3, pp. 308-319 (March 2007). Bazant and Verdure write, "As generally accepted by the community of specialists in structural mechanics and structural engineering (though not by a few outsiders claiming a conspiracy with planted explosives), the failure scenario was as follows..." (continues with a four-part scenario of progressive structural failure) dosen't even correspond to the article." Any objections to editing it?--DatDoo (talk) 02:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I should say it dosen't correspond to the claim--DatDoo (talk) 02:58, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Claim for Times of India being "mainstream corporate media"

I have reverted Arthur Rubin's edit supporting the notion that the Times of India is "mainstream media." It simply isn't. It's foreign media. Nobody in the 9/11 Truth Movement or attached to any other 9/11 "conspiracy" movement would so label it, as there is no evidence that The Times of India systematically suppresses stories which would be embarrassing to the Military Industrial Complex, the CIA, the Federal Reserve System, the state of Israel or the owners of American print and broadcast media. Wowest 15:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Please provide a reference specifically stating that that it's not mainstream, or that someone calls it non-mainstream, or leave it out entirely. The Orange County Register is non-mainstream, if you were to use the definition you are implying here. In fact, there may not be a "mainstream" publication under that definition. (Besides, you said "mainstream" rather than "corporate".) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 17:39, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

An absolute joke

Stating that accusations of Israels involvement is anti-semitic is completely wrong.

Number one, Israel is a nation which should follow the same rules as any other nation. The idea that questioning a nation is somehow religious hatred makes a mockery of freedom of speech.

Number two, the majority of jewish people do not descend from Semites, they descend from Khazarians.

Somebody needs to change that, it's ridiculous and purposely attempting to discredit the truth movement, which currently has a lot more supporting evidence than the official conspiracy theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.37.85.196 (talk) 09:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

O.K. -- I removed the anti-Israeli category from the anti-semitic category, since they are two separate issues. Some American Jews have been critical of the State of Israel as being anti-semitic, by the way, because they discriminate against Sephardic (semitic) Jews in favor of Ashkenazai (largely Kazarian) Jews. Wowest 13:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I have made further changes to separate the Israeli involvement claims from the anti-Semitic theories. Corleonebrother 17:40, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

WHAT THE HELL !?

Corleonebrother, what the hell are you doing to this article? I mean really, doing 10 edits over the course of 2 hours is strange, but deleting several large sections of text WITHOUT DISCUSSION is vandalism. PLEASE STOP. I almost undid all your ridiculous edits, but then decided to provide an opportunity to discuss this further. Your deletions have not improved the article, and by suppressing important information you do harm to Wikipedia.Logicman1966 04:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I was only following the spirit of WP:BOLD. What specific concerns do you have about my edits? I am happy to discuss my reasons for making them, if there are any objections. Corleonebrother 08:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I am referring to the large amount of material that you deleted from the article, in particular relating to the 5 Israelis arrested for usual behaviour. This material was supported by references, and is very relevant to the 9/11 attacks. I strongly believe that the material should be put back into the artcile.Logicman1966 01:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I condensed 20 lines about the 5 Israelis down to 8 lines, which say the same thing but with less detail. In my opinion, there was too much detail before. Do you see anything important and relevant missing now that was present before? Corleonebrother 19:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I haven't checked what changes you made but it is always a good idea to start a discussion and show that your edits are justified and helpful for the article before you go and make a big change as deleting a whole paragraph. Even simply saying "I'm about to delete bla bla bla, any objections???" atleast shows good faith.Farqis 13:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

By removing so much material, you have completely changed the perspective of the incident. It now reads like those 5 guys were just innocent by-standers, who happened to be in the right place with a camera. You have conveniently deleted most of the incriminating evidence that would give any intelligent reader a quite different impression. I was actually intending to add even more material relating to the incident. If you believe that it makes the article too long, then I propose splitting it off into a separate article. Logicman1966 05:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Please can you be more specific? What would you like to add back in? Corleonebrother 18:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Specific facts that should not have been removed - (1) reaction of bomb sniffing dogs who checked the van (2) Suter abandoned the business and fled back to Israel (3) the FBI placed Suter on same suspect list as Atta (4) Kurzberg refused to take the lie detector test and then failed it (5) CIA suspicions that Urban Moving was a Mossad front (6) quote from Carl Cameron's news report.Logicman1966 (talk) 11:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Collaboration with Al Qaeda

The article states "MIHOP ("made it happen on purpose") - the strongest version suggests that key individuals within the government planned the attacks and collaborated with al-Qaeda in carrying them out." While many conspiracy theorists make this claim this theory is far from universal. Plenty of theorists claim that Bin Ladin was a sick man living in a cave and thus could not have carried out the attacks Edkollin 05:16, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Warnings given to individuals -- unsupported assertions

"Odigo traced the Internet address of the sender and gave it to the FBI."

Up to that point, the statements are supported by the Haaretz article, but the following three assertions are not:

"The warnings did not specifically mention the WTC attacks but said that "something big" was going to happen in a certain amount of time and ended with an anti-Semitic slur."

In particular, the last allegation makes no sense at all. It may be OR or SYN. Wowest 07:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The reference for all three assertions is a statement by Odigo's vice president Alex Diamandis in the Washington Post on October 4, 2001 on page 24 (not online). In fact the message never mentioned an attack at all just "something big" which can be assumed to mean an attack. The actual wording of the message has never been released. I feel it is important to keep in the article as many use the message as a reference for a specific warning of the 911 attack to Jews (from Jews?) when in fact it more of an vague threat directed at Jews and likely unrelated to 911. I have read somewhere that the FBI did track the ISP and discounted it, although by refusing to disclose the sender the FBI have provided another point the conspiracy theorists use. Wayne 12:17, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Then you need to list the source? Wowest 21:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh. I see. It's a very-hard-to-verify source. Hmm. Wowest 21:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Claims relating to the hijackings

I recommend to put information about laser guided plane on the site. On YouTube there is a video named 2nd hit - "laser dot shot" which assumes that the plane which crashed into the south tower was a laser guided plane. The address of the video is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB0msfbPecE Manmanwiki 08:14, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

If you have more reliable sources than a youtube video, go ahead. Even a blog is more reliable than an unsourced youtube video. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 08:17, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Noseoutframe.jpg

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BetacommandBot 05:38, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

No Mention of Gold Found At Ground Zero

This article doesn't mention the $200 million worth of gold (or however much it was) that was discovered around November 2, 2001, like a day before the FDNY was pulled from the site. And then Giuliani ordered the debris - that still contained remnants of people - to be trucked away. Knightskye 07:44, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

That's probably because the first mention of it was here. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 08:24, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:BE BOLD and add it...if you have a source for such a claim. — BQZip01 — ^talk 19:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Is there a society for 'AE against 9/11 conspiracy'?

I know there are 'official' experts cited in the 'debunking' websites, but is there an actual non-profit movement of academics and professionals? If there were, I would still want to look at there bank records or living conditions pre- and post- potential payoff. It just seems to be quite telling that a few hundred people would put there names and reputations to a 'theory' and experts opposed wouldn't try to make their name in the opposite way. I know this is circumstantial but when there is _so much_ circumstantial evidence and so much missing evidence (for whatever reason) I'm ashamed(if only because I'm a minority) to say that I believe in the controlled demolition approach.

No other websites will even research this for me :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackpoupart (talk • contribs) 15:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is. It is commonly called the 9/11 Truth Movement. That said, I would love to understand how you believe in a controlled demolition, why planes were necessary, why the Pentagon blew up, and why another jet crashed? This page shows that those theories are not true and explains why. — BQZip01 — ^talk 17:07, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The previous sentence paragraph in generally believed false, even by the so-called 9/11 Truth Movement. They (the Truthers) cannot agree as to which non-official theory they accept. As for Jackpoupart's question, it's there wouldn't really be a need for such an organization to support either "official" (as there would be "official" organizations) or "mainstream" (as basically everyone supports it) theories, so there probably isn't. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 17:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that there is no irrefutable proof for either the official theory or the conspiracy theories. The best we can say is the balance of probability in which the official theory has a advantage. Due to government secrecy (and incompetence) this state of affairs will remain. As long as there is doubt or inconsistancies with the official account there will be people willing to put their reputations on the line not to mention the kooks who accept either a CT or official account unconditionally which muddies the waters even more. Most truthers do not support any particular theory but accept the possibility and call for an investigation which is the aim of those who form groups. Discounting CT's is POV. Accepting CT's is POV. The only NPOV stance is accepting there are questions that need answers and that until this happens CT's are as valid a theory as the official account even if not to the same degree of probability. Wayne (talk) 03:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Come on, you two! I know you can be more logical than THAT! Neither one of you is typing anything that recognizably responds to the previous post(s)! Were there intermediate edits or something that got deleted? Oh, now Wayne comes along. Hi, Wayne! Wayne, you're out of date sequence now! Wayne -- I think you're basically correct, but the bottom line is that we do NOT know exactly what happened, and we are addicted to "knowing." In school, they teach us to guess on tests! In the real world, people who were trained that way have gotten into trouble, particularly if they were working as real estate agents and guessed, in talking to either the buyer or the seller, about what the other party intended. Sometimes that has been expensive. Meanwhile, in the television shows too many of us spend too much time watching, three magical witches are invariably able to "vanquish" the most amazing, murderous demons, consistently, in one hour, with time taken out for commercials. As I said, it's an addiction. Unresolved questions cause us to suffer, and in the case of something like 9/11, ignoring unresolved questions does not make them go away. Once the Truth Movement got as big as it is, "strawman" arguments, like the Popular Mechanics/History Channel exercises don't work either. They did that too late. We simply do NOT know, and there is nothing wrong with that. Maybe we can learn what happened, maybe we cannot, and it is possible to ask questions which we have no way of ever answering.

There is a nice, civilized debate about whether it's easier to argue for the Official Conspiracy Theory or any other theory in the two most recent letters in the letters section of http://www.journalof911studies.com/letters.html

I just came across a great example of doublethink, by the way! Simultaneously believing that the Bush Administration is too incompetent to have pulled off 9-11 and believing it is too competent to have the bin Laden impersonator mess up his lines in the "confession video."

O.K. --- BQ! --- Same question: If they just wanted to murder Honiok, why did the SS dress him up in a Polish uniform, shoot him and leave the body at Sender Gleiwitz on Oct. 31, 1939? The whole point of faking the attack on the radio station was to be able to blame Poland, so that the thousands of tanks which were already positioned on the Polish border could roll across the next morning, to fulfill the secret treaty with Stalin. Kinda like the prepositioned troops in the former Soviet Union the U.S. had ready for the Afghan invasion we'd been talking about since July! If the buildings had just imploded, why would anyone believe that Muslims did it? They needed all of the stage magic.

Arthur - I cannot tell which "previous sentence" you are referencing. That's called a "vague antecedent." If you look at the U.S. opinion polls over the past few years, ignoring changes with the passage of time because they asked different questions in every poll, 16 pct. of Americans believed in the controlled demolition theory two years ago, but a much smaller percentage believed that the U.S. Government did it, more recently. At the same time, 51 percent think we need a new official investigation with commissioners who do not all have conflicts of interest, 30 percent favor the immediate impeachment of Bush/Cheney and something like 75 percent think the 9/11 Commission erred in ignoring building 7. At the same time, in Muslim countries, the percentages vary, but in one country, only twelve percent thought Muslims were responsible for 9/11. I have no idea who these Muslims think did it, and bin Laden blamed "Jews" immediately after the attack. For me, it's about who I think is more honest, Bush or bin Laden. I'm not sure the word honest applies in such a comparison. Meanwhile? Wowest (talk) 04:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Sources? Kevin (talk) 15:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Look at 9/11 opinion polls Wowest (talk) 21:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Is it improper to but a {{failed verification}} tag on Wowest's previous paragraph. As for the origninal, my statement stands. The "Official Conspiracy Theory" is accepted, for the most part, by a vast majority. That 75%, if not made up, includes all who doubt some aspect of the OCT. For what it's worth, that would include me, as I think the study which showed the reduction in air quality was severely flawed. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Dude, you seriously need to read more slowly -- maybe aloud. I imagine you're pretty busy at work. When people read too quickly, even "trained readers," they miss words, and the words they miss tend to be words that conflict with their previously-held beliefs. You're selling yourself short. The 75 percent [who] think the 9/11 Commission erred in ignoring building 7 obviously includes people who do not believe in pre-planted explosives, but who think that speculation might have been laid to rest if ONLY the commission had addressed it.

Now, the other thing: According to polls (as best I can read them), roughly 1/3 of the U.S. population is calling for the immediate impeachment of Bush/Cheney for various reasons. Some people think Bush is too liberal. Roughly 1/3 of the U.S. population, (not necessarily the same 1/3 as previously), based almost entirely on Internet exposure, thinks that the government either pulled off 9/11 itself, or knew it was coming and deliberately let it happen. 51% think we need a new investigation. Some of those only want to shut up those of us who don't believe the Bush administration. Look at the projectcensored webpage sometime. Wowest (talk) 21:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

(talk) moved my post with the comment "reinsert Wayne's unjustified rant in order, even though it put's an unnamed section in a bad light".
What happened to assuming good faith and no personal attacks? The reason it was out of order was that it was a specific reply to several questions that Jackpoupart asked that were answered in a condescending way by several following posts that didn't actually give him an answer at all due to their bias. I have no problem with moving the post but find the comment offensive and uncalled for. Wayne (talk) 00:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

So, perhaps it was a justified rant. It was still a rant, not related to improving the article page. It was still out of order, and appeared to reply, in part to the (temporally) earlier comment which appeared later in this page. It made a later unsigned anon comment appear more disjointed than it already did, but it did put Wayne's contribution in the proper context. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions for improving the article?

Making the article shorter than the article about 9/11 might be nice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.195.45.75 (talk) 01:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

This article starts off pretty ridiculous, being an article on the twoofers, but what's more ridiculous is it uses twoofers as sources of information. They do that a lot. Alex Jones will claim something, citing Steve Jones, who uses Alex Jones as his source. One thins for sure, you will never be able to figure out who started most of this horse crap. ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by D a r l i n g f a c e (talk • contribs) 02:41, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Connection between Dubai and 9/11?

I've heard that Dubai banks helped finance the 9/11 attacks and that Osama bin Laden, and other al Qaeda, did visit Dubai from time to time. I wonder if there's a connection between Dubai and 9/11. 68.36.214.143 (talk) 18:06, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Viewpoints of other 9/11 CT theories editors surprises this editor

Based on reading these talk pages it appears to me that the opinions of most editors range from disagreement to contempt toward the theories being written about here. I thought it would have been the other way around. I am curious as to why I am wrong about this. I do not want this to get into the tired old "bias" arguments.Edkollin (talk) 18:55, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Most of us are sensible. <insert smiley here>. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Many sensible (conservative?) editors don't require unambiguous evidence in support of the OT so have no problem discounting the possibility of CT's <insert smilie here>. They still do good work though in controlling the more extreme CT views. Wayne (talk) 01:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Think about the U.S. population, Edkollin. Approximately 1/3 of the population are sympathetic to the 9/11 Truth Movement. On the other hand, approximately 1/3 of the population still think Saddam Hussein had WMD's. We twoofers have had no media coverage at all until lately, with some cable channels now expressing overt hostility. This is progress.Wowest (talk) 02:18, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

That 1/3 includes those who believe the reports were incomplete (which may include me), even if they don't think the conclusion could differ, or that there was some US government incompetence which allowed the attacks, I believe. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:26, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

While we are talking about polls a new Scripps Howard one came out over the weekend which I have added to the 9/11 opinion poll article asking about several CT's including 9/11. 32% said it was very likely that "some people in the federal government had specific warnings of the 9/11 attacks in New York and Washington, but chose to ignore those warnings". 30% felt it was somewhat likely 30% felt it was unlikely and 8% was in the don't know/other bracket[1]. Would the fact the survey was released Friday on Thanksgiving weekend be a conspiracy of some sort<insert whatever you like here>? Back on topic it is quite a leap to assume the Wikipedia 9/11 CT article editors opinions would reflect the American public at large. Not all of the editors are American for one. Edkollin (talk) 06:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

But thinking that the U.S. government had an inkling before the attack is far from controlled demolitions, directed energy beams, no planes, and a holographic WTC. I think the polls are taken wayyy out of context. Kevin (talk) 15:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

While you're at it, directed energy beams, a holographic WTC and no planes at the WTC are "far from" controlled demolitions and no jumbo

jet crashed at the Pentagon. Please don't conflate those things. I note that the survey only questions the LIHOP theory. I opine that most of the Truth Movement supports the MIHOP theory. Maybe we need more of a hierarchy of theories here. Some theories require senior, supporting theories. The OTC only requires ignoring the history of the CIA.Wowest (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 00:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't get your knickers in a knot. I'm just saying all of your polls that 9/11 truthers hold so dear, most of them are taken out of context. Kevin (talk) 03:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The new poll was designed to test belief in conspiracy theories in general not 9/11 conspiracies in particular. There was only one 9/11 question with no follow up. The survey did what it was designed to do it found widespread belief in conspiracy theories. The 9/11 question at best hinted at widespread belief in 9/11 conspiracy theories. You can draw no conclusions at all from the survey as to why 62% of the public believes officials did not act on "specific" advance information Edkollin (talk) 07:47, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

In that case, it would primarily be measuring the lack of trust in the U.S. Government since, say, 1964, although rare, earlier usages of the term "conspiracy theory" can be found dating back to 1910 or thereabouts. The meme has the built-in connotation that there is something wrong with believing such a thing. Wowest (talk) 10:45, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Basically agree that this is what the poll reports. But the news service reported it as "Selected results from a Scripps poll about conspiracies" so we have to use the cites wording Edkollin (talk) 20:15, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Tobias Jaecker

I've restored the link to Tobias Jaecker's well written Netzeitung article. Jaecker is a bone fide print and broadcast journalist, a producer and editor for Radio Eins Berlin who has spent some time on secondment to Chicago Public Radio. His commentary, in German, complements his 2004 monograph: "Antisemitische Verschwörungstheorien nach dem 11. September. Neue Varianten eines alten Deutungsmusters" (Münster: LIT Verlag) ISBN 3-8258-7917-8". This fellow isn't just some loudmouth with a blog. Google makes a decent effort of translating it into understandable, if not perfect, English. --Tony Sidaway 18:04, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Some suggestions for improvement of this article

I think this article doesn't associate conspiracy theories enough with anti-semitism, a proven effective way of preventing people from taking the time to investigate these nutty claims. It could also use some extra straw man arguments about UFO's and secret weapons perhaps. On a side note, I'd like someone to explain to me why the theory about some Arab's conspiring to bring 2 buildings down and damage a third isn't a conspiracy theory. Joehoe665 (talk) 18:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)