Talk:False dilemma

examples

Any way you could find some examples that are a little less politically charged? This article sounds more like a rant against the current administration than an unbiased article on the False Dilemma.

I agree, and more importantly, the last example about global warming isn't even a False Dilemma fallacy by the blogger himself, as the wikipiedia contributor claims... It's actually that the blogger is accusing environmentalists of holding to a Black-and-White fallacious view of the Earth's climate (and given the facts about ice cores below, the blogger's accusation is true when we consider the temperature history of the Earth):

some environmentalists -- from Gore to Lowell Ponte in the 1970's claiming that the cooling back then was going to be another ice age (slippery slope fallacy: a small temperature drop won't necessarily become a large one), to the politicized UN IPCC today (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16948233/site/newsweek) -- see the Earth as warming or cooling and they have stated that the *recent* warming and/or cooling -- i.e. since the mid-20th-century -- are/were catastrophic and extreme temperature changes (so they are "discounting the middle," one name for this type of fallacy, because they discount the possibility that we are in the "grey" area in the Black-and-White fallacy so to speak, despite that according to all ice cores I've seen, we ARE in the non-extreme, "grey" area, not at a black-and-white extreme (I'm an environmental engineer, so I've seen LOTS of ice cores):

This includes ice cores which some environmentalists themselves agree are "good" ice cores (i.e. good data, not flawed bythe collection technique), e.g. the graph for the ice core at the environmentalist website: http://www.whrc.org/resources/online_publications/warming_earth/scientific_evidence.htm

This ice core covers the past 4 interglacial periods, and exhibits that the recent temperatures -- since the mid-20th-century -- are NOT extreme because: (a) today's temperatures are well within what the Earth has done since before mankind even existed, e.g. the cores show that Earth has been hotter during two of the last four interglacial temperature-peaks, peaks during which mankind didn't even exist, so the Earth obviously got hotter than it is presently even without anthropogenic warming, and did so on a regular basis. (b) The ice cores ALSO show that these interglacial temperature peaks came at 100,000 year intervals 5 times in a row, and not coincidentally, today is within 5k years (5%) of the normal, "scheduled" record-high temperatures which the Earth has seen each 100k years. (c) The ice cores further show temperature swings more than 10 times larger than the temperatures since the mid-20th-century, so these recent temperature-swings -- which caused a panic about an "ice age" coming during the 1970's and a "meltdown" since Y2K or so -- are NOT (historically) "extreme," they are TINY. The facts exhibited by the ice cores, to recap, are that:

'today's temperature changes are not one extreme ("black" of the Black-and-White fallacy) nor the other ("white" of the Black-and-White fallacy), because (a) the modern-day cooling and warming are small changes relative to the Earth's temperature history, (b) today's temperatures are NORMAL and to be expected as a part of the Earth's 100k year cycle of interglacials which is natural, not anthropogenic nor otherwise likely to be a "new" factor to change the Earth's overall temperature patterns) and these ice ages (and interglacials, literally "between ice ages," i.e. temperature-peaks) come at 100k year periods, whereas the "scientific consensus" in the 1970's (argumentum ad populum) was that an ice age would come only 55k years into this cycle despite that even the temperature-data today shows it's a 100k-year cycle not a 55k-year cycle :-) and (c) today's temperature is not extreme nor "never before seen" and it is well within the historic norms for natural (non-anthropogenic) temperature swings because fully HALF of the last 4 interglacials had even higher (more "extreme") temperatures than today -- and those higher temperatures came before mankind even existed.'

All of these facts exhibited by ice cores add up to say that 'temperature swings since the 20th-century are within the Earth's normal range and thus not "extreme" -- not black nor white, but grey: somewhere in between the extremes of black and white' -- and these ice cores are ignored by some people, even including some of my fellow scientists, and I believe the reason why many scientists ignore these SIMPLE and OBVIOUS facts which the ice cores show, is that they now -- just as the "consensus" who said that an ice age was coming in the 1970's was slow to admit they were wrong ('after equally alarmist (argumentum ad consequentium) like: "It is a cold fact: the Global COOLING (emphasis added) presents humankind with the most important social, political, and adaptive challenge we have had to deal with FOR TEN THOUSAND YEARS (emph added). Your stake in the decisions we make concerning it is of ultimate importance; the survival of ourselves, our children, our species"), and when no ice age or dangerous cooling came, their "consensus" prediction which contradicted and ignored the SIMPLE historical pattern of the ice cores (the 100k-year pattern which showed Y2K SHOULD get hot, not cold as they predicted in the 1970's despite that they were only 55k years into this 100k-year cycle :-) ), and they ignored that the recent temperature-swings were TINY -- and now global-warming advocates, similar to the global cooling crowd back then, cannot bring themselves to admit that there are many flaws in:

- their past work (e.g. computer models which governments were supposed to take action on, despite that the models now are shown to be off by 10 to 100 times the amount of temperature-change that the model predicted)

- and in their alarmist predictions, which they staked their professional reputations on -- or as PRof. Richard Lindzen of MIT put it: '"consensus...reached before the research had even begun" to which Timothy Ball concurs: "The normal scientific method is effectively being thwarted [by scientists themselves]".' Frankly, I don't even consider them scientists, they are ideologues who jumped to a conclusion -- just as in the 1970's Global Cooling scare -- before significant data was in. I think they will be as stubborn and take as long as it took GWB and his own "experts" to admit they goofed on Iraq intel about WMD; because certainly if these scientists are not merely just being stubborn, they'd OPENLY DISCUSS the above facts about the ice cores in the mass media; I read 3 newspapers each day, and never saw these facts about the ice cores discussed. But I believe the patterns shown by the ice cores are SO simple and obvious that laymen can evaluate them for themselves -- and either ignore those facts as many IPCC (politically) chosen scientists do, or honestly ask yourself why, if manmade global warming is present and SIGNIFICANT, why is today's temperature LOWER than in half of the last 4 interglacials?

In conclusion, 'the ice core data exhibit that it is a Black-and-White fallacy to claim that the global temperatures recently were "extreme"'; by any objective (historical) measure these are not extreme temperatures. The Earth's natural (pre-human) temperature swings show that they are THE NORM and small relative to the Earth's temperature-history. These are well-supported (even with citations to ice core graphics from environmentalists themselves) scientific FACTS, thus a long entry (sorry) to scientifically *support* why the wikipedia contributor is wrong and the blogger is right, although I tried to keep this in layman's terms.

The false dilemma is also common in politics, especially in places like the United States where there are only two major political parties.

The article shows no evidence that the US has more "false dilemma" fallacies in its politics than elsewhere. Europe has its share, and non-democratic countries have more than their share.

Let's keep out the "especially in...US" thing pending evidence for it. --Ed Poor

Well, voting systems that encourage two-party systems do so by squeezing out minority parties. Voters avoid voting for minority parties in the belief that they would be wasting their vote, and instead vote for the best of two evils. I guess you could see this as the fallacy of the excluded middle, but I'm not convinced... Martin

...and multi-party systems where the minority parties must compromise with (and essentially be absorbed by) another party, in "power sharing" if you google for the quoted term, will still marginalize the minority parties even though that is NOT a "two party system"... but this entire topic is a bit of a Red Herring because it has nothing to do with the False Dilemma fallacy. ;-)

Actually, with the district voting system, you are wasting your vote if you vote for a small party. With proportional representation, on the other hand, you don't. -- Mrdice

Right, the voting system is arguably flawed, but where's the fallacy? A fallacious conclusion drawn from the voting system might be "You're either a Democrat or a Republican". (Or: either a liberal or a conservative) Aragorn2 16:17, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The original definition and the discussion here is quite interesting but has one major flaw: your use of the word "dilemma". A dilemma is not a situation in which one has to decide between a more or less positive and a more or less negative alternative, but rather a situation in which both alternatives are more or less negative!

'False dilemma' is a single term, and its meaning need not have to do with that of 'dilemma'. Just as one can commit the fallacy of special pleading without actually pleading. Andre Engels 13:37, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Example is confusing

It is confusing to include "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" as an illustrative example of a false dilemma. When taken in context, this statement is usually made as part of a statement of policy rather than current fact. In this context, it is a condition that the speaker will assume to be true and act accordingly (i.e., if an entity does not show itself to be with "us", it will be assumed to be with the "terrorists"). Unless it is impossible for the speaker to make this assumption and (rightfully or wrongfully) act on this assumption, this is not a good example of a false dilemma.

The speaker's assumption is in itself fallacious, because it implies a false dilemma. If I'd assume that you're either a Bolivian or a Nigerian, that would be equally fallacious. You can't be both, obviously, but you could be neither. Do you mean to say "Just because somebody makes illogical assumptions, that doesn't mean they're fallacious."??? Aragorn2 16:12, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree it is confusing because it is a statement of policy, not fact (the policy being that we would no longer accept neutral tolerance or harboring of terrorist activity). You might as well include "Give me liberty or give me death" or "Live free or die" as an example of this logical fallacy. Furthermore, I think it is inappropriate and a violation of NPOV to use real-life quotations for examples of logical fallacies, particularly if they are taken from only one party or POV.

..... Politics is infamous for false dilemmas due in part to the economic and personal stakes in political life. Someone who says "You are with us or you are with the terrorists" is a false dichotomy if one is confused with the terrorists because one dissents with political agendas that have no connection to terrorism (fiscal policy, labor-management relations, school prayer, evolution, abortion, economic corruption). Actions that might directly aid terrorists, as in laundering money or delivering information between cells would imply being 'with terrorists', but dissent with a government on subsidies for privileged industries or its policies of racial or religious discrimination doesn't comprise 'being with the terrorists', although the government that states such a dichotomy might wish to treat any dissent with its policies as severely as it would treat terrorists. One could argue that a government that enforces exploitative or dehumanizing policies (extreme examples: nazi Germany, apartheid-era South Africa) through force is itself terrorist.

It's wiser to discuss the logic or illogic of political dichotomies of the past so that one can explain a false dichotomy. For example, an American negrophobe during the Civil Rights struggle might have posed the dichotomy as 'segregation or communism'. The retort isn't that the communists were for desegregation; it was instead that segregationism was not necessary for the preservation of capitalism and religious freedom incompatible with communism.

Simple sayings such as "Give me liberty or give me death!" (Patrick Henry)look like flawed dichotomies, but this one can be set up as a syllogism:

Despotic rule makes liberty impossible.

Without liberty, life is meaningless.

Despotic rule makes life meaningless.

Patrick Henry needed not be trained in formal logic to make such a bold, pithy statement. He said enough, and "Give me liberty or give me death!"

To be sure, some people would sacrifice their liberty to get or achieve wealth, privilege, infamy, revenge, safety, or material comfort; the people who agreed with Patrick Henry recognized the value of liberty and were ready to act decisively and sacrificially on its behalf.

--66.231.41.57 14:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

There's no logical fallacy when saying "give me liberty or give me death!", same as there isn't when saying "give me chocolate or give me vanilla!". The speaker is just asking for one of two things. Itub 19:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

"The Opposite" Episode of Seinfeld

Would this episode, where George assumes that "if every instinct he has is wrong, then the opposite must be right" be an example of this fallacy?

I think that's a Non sequitur --69.211.104.41 15:06, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Bernard Baruch once stated that all that he needed to do to get good advice on investments was to watch what Sir Winston Churchill (who had his virtues, but consistently exposed incompetence in reading economic trends) did and then did the diametric opposite. Of course that refers to something with a nearly-excluded middle ("buy/sell") with only the near-triviality of a middle, "hold" or "do nothing". --66.231.41.57 14:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Heh, that's my favorite Seinfeld episode. Yes, that would be an example of a false dilemma, rather than a nonsequiter as stated above. George falsely assumes that there are only two possible actions - the one his instincts tell him, and the opposite of that. --BennyD 15:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

"Dilemma" not correct word

Out of the list of terms covering the same issue, I think that false dilemma is the least practical because a dilemma implies, contrary to popular use, a choice between two unpleasant alternatives. That doesn't necessarily apply to the issue discussed in this article, so I think that "false dichotomy" or one of the other terms should be the primary title.

......

When one speaks of a false dilemma, typically involving two harsh choices (Sobriety or drunkenness), one must of course contrast them to genuine situations, as in abandoning something precious to save ones life. The sailor on a sinking ship who has a large amount of gold that would allow him to buy his way into the aristocracy might have to choose between the gold and drowning. That's an unpleasant choice, but not one created by human design. False dilemmas are often human constructions that deny legitimate alternatives. The 'choice' that the robber offers 'Your money or your life!' forcefully denies the possibility of a victim to pass through with his cash, the situation that a good society enforces with harsh sanctions against robbery. --66.231.41.57 12:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

What about the Prisoner's Dilemma? In this case one, and only one, choice of two is considered "rational". --Tmchk 01:48, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Di-lemma and di-chotomy both imply two, A or not A. "A natural number is either even or odd," is a correct dichotomy. "I must either eat or starve," is a correct dilemma. A dichotomy simply separats things into two parts, a dilemma implies that one must choose one part and not the other, with the implication that the choice is difficult. A false dichotomy would be: real numbers are either positive or negative (a real number might be zero, and so we have a trichotomy rather than a dichotomy). A false dichotomy would be: I must either vote for the Democrat or the Republican (you might not vote at all or might vote for an independent.) A more common use of the false dichotomy is where there is an entire spectrum of choices but the dichotomy implies only two: You are either with me or against me.

The Prisoner's Dilemma is a true dilemma -- there are only two choices -- but it is paradoxical because there are seemingly logical arguments in favor of each choice.

Incidentally, there are two different paradoxes which, by various authors, have gone by the name The Prisoner's Dilemma. One involves whether or not to inform on your accomplice. The other involves knowing on what day you will be executed. Rick Norwood 14:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The Claim

The False dilemma is related to the claim. A claim in philosophy is a statement that can be evaluated as true or false. A claim is not a definition and is not a description (neither definition nor description can be evaluated as true or false). In the False dilemma a statement is made, and the statement is evaluated as true or false, and this is a philosophers claim.

The following discussion is an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Propose merge

I have proposed to merge the relatively short article, You're either with us, or against us, here. BD2412 T 15:48, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Oppose: I have added an alternative interpretation of the slogan as a speech act instead of a logical fallacy to the short article. It still needs to be improved, but not merged.--Niels Ø 18:37, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

So, in the examples, it seems arguable that the first 4 are "speech acts" because they express a policy. But, the last example, "Mitch Daniels stated, 'You're either for this bill or you're against our future,'", probably is more a "false dilemma" because it's not a policy. If that's the case, then merging the article into "false dilemma" would be wrong since the paraphrase could be either a "false dilemma" or a "speech act" and easily debatable as either. --JJLatWiki 16:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. People who want to read an article about the phrase "You're either with us, or against us" can go to that page, and people who want to read about false dilemma in general can go to a separate page. A cat is a type of mammal -- should cat be merged into mammal? I don't see a strong reason to support the merge proposal. —Tokek 14:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Oppose if anything, the article should be changed to False dichotomy. False dichotomy is an intellectual term used in university discourse. You're either with us, or against us, is not. MPS 22:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment: I think MPS may have misunderstood the suggestion. The proposal does not involve changing the name of this article, only adding the content of another article to this one (and creating a redirect). As for the name of this article, in my experience "false dilemma" is at least as common as "false dichotomy," if not overwhelmingly more so, in university courses and philosophy journal articles, and is the easier term to understand for those without a background in logic, and so is clearly the correct name for this article. (I have no idea what MPS means by "intellectual term", a phrase which comes across as expressing a preference for big words for their own sake.) PurplePlatypus 09:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. The above comments notwithstanding, I don't see much point in the merge. One article is about the use of a certain phrase in politics and/or history, the other is about a logical fallacy. That one happens to (arguably) be an instance of the other doesn't seem to be a good enough reason to merge them, any more than it is a reason to merge, say, Ford Contour with Automobile. The articles should reference each other, but that's all. PurplePlatypus 09:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. While I'm not quite sure "You're either with us, or against us" needs an entire article devoted to the phrase, I do not believe the extra data in the article would merge well with False dilemma (specifically, the historical section). -Markusbradley 07:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose The phrase, "You're either with us, or against us", is widely used and has historical relevance. Enough so to be a seperate article. They may be interconnected via the "see also" section, considering they have relations. Somerset219 02:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

This obviously failed by virtue of everyone opposing it, and noone else having commented on it in 20 days. I removed the tags. --Kevin_b_er 05:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

"Either/or fallacy" would successfully merge both articles

Hi all, this link is now on the anti-Mormon article as an example, the false dilemma title is not as effective as "either/or fallacy" in the context it often used in. For what it is worth, there is an either/or link already describing a book. Anon166 19:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

"Either/or fallacy" is not a particularly common term in logic and critical thinking courses; this isn't the first time I've heard it, but it's close. "False dilemma" is definitely the more usual name, your opinion on their relative clarity (which, it must be admitted, I agree with) notwithstanding. PurplePlatypus 09:19, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely with PurplePlatypus that "either/ or fallacy" is not the commonly used term for this fallacy and thus it should not be labelled this way in Wikipedia. Furthermore, the concept of "your with us or against us" is narrower in scope than the false dilemma. I say these articles should definitely be kept separate.--Will3935 00:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I Oppose. I agree with PurplePlatypus as well. --Tmchk 01:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

merge of false choice into false dilemma

• For both are used in the same way and have the same definitions. Somerset219 03:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
• For They seem to have only miniscule differences; not enough for them to each have their own article.Tuesday42 14:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
• ForSee all above. They are very alike. Hezzy 18:58, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• Against I disagree with how false choice is being defined. I have always understood false choice to be where a choice is given, but the two options are really the same. Usually with parents to children i.e. "Do you want to do your homework on the chair or the couch?" The debate is about doing homework, but the 'choices' given by the parent are not really about doing homework, but rather about where the homework is being done, which wasn't a part of the debate.
• Against for the same reason as the unsigned comment above; I think Wikipedia currently defines "false choice" in a completley incorrect manner, and this proposal only makes sense with the incorrect definition. PurplePlatypus 06:53, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
• Comment With someone with a dictionary or a regular encyclopedia please look up what they have on this? I tried an old American Heritage Dictionary, but to no avail.Tuesday42 01:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

• For Ask Google. Scaro 22 September 2006
• Comment. Merge them only if the consensus on other authoratative sources show that it is needed. However Wikipedia should also reflect common usage. Alan Liefting 02:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
• For "Do you want to do your homework on the chair or the couch?" is still a False Dilemma. The excluded choice is "not do homework." It would be the same as "spend money on space exploration, or feed the homeless." The option "spend no money" is available but hidden, just like "not do homework." The oppose votes argue that since the false dilemma is offered and enforced by some figure of authority, that it is something else. The choices offered by the "parent" in the above scenario are the same as the ones regularly offered to us by our elected politicians or heavy-handed managers. Being forced to chose one of the False Dilemma's options doesn't turn it into something else -- it's still the same fallacy -- just with a less receptive moderator to debate with. Googling for the phrase "false choice" just brings up examples of False Dilemmas: "freedom vs security," "low prices vs high wages," "local vs organic," etc. jthillik 19:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
• For The two terms are synonymous. -UK-Logician-2006 22:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
• For Ewlyahoocom 16:03, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, I already did the merge. I don't see why more nuanced meaning of false choice (or if it is a different thing) or whatever discussion can't be handled here. As it stood the current material was almost identical, so a merge made sense. --Merzul 00:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Stephen Colbert example

I have added this example three times now. It has been reverted the first two times. The first time was because it was "politically charged" and the second time because of Wikipedia:No personal attacks. However, No Personal Attacks refers to editors, not subjects in the article. Secondly, no one is saying anything negative about the President. In the example, Colbert gives two choices: "Great President" or "Greatest President". By definition, there are countless more choices that should be made available. "Really good President," "So-so President," "Terrible President." No where in the example does it say anything negative about the President. It is simply a clear-cut example of False Dilemma and, in my opinion, a perfect example for this article since it is one that many people will recognize and help them understand the term. Please don't revert without discussing here. Stoneice02 14:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem with this example is that Colbert is a humorist. On the other hand, the classic example of a false dilemma is "Have you stopped beating your wife?" Rick Norwood 12:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Dead References Link

The link for the first reference is dead. (Minton, James (2006-06-03). Video games seized from teen’s home. The Baton Rouge Advocate. Retrieved on 2006-06-05.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.112.5.246 (talk) 23:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC).

Shot in the face

Ok. It's pretty funny that "shooting people in the face" links to Dick Cheney, but I'm still changing it. StuIsCool 03:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The relationship between false dilemma and black and white thinking.

First, this is not the place to chat about global warming -- there are other web sites for that.

The false dilemma and black and white thinking are closely related. In each case, they pose an "either A or B" choice, when in fact there are other alternatives. Rick Norwood 12:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

diagrams

Grumpyoldman1 likes the diagrams in this article. I find the diagrams confusing and unhelpful. They are certainly not the standard flowcharts that are sometimes used. Since Grumpyoldman and I disagree, others need to weigh in on this subject. Rick Norwood 16:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

It has been almost a month, and still no response to my question about the diagrams. When there are only two people involved, and when they strongly hold opposite opinions, we really need other people to express an opinion. Rick Norwood 12:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi there,

Long time between edits. Perhaps you could list some specifics which are confusing and or unhelpful, because I really don't know what you are referring to. Problems should first be attempted to be fixed in the images themselves, then in the captions and finally if problems still exist it should be weighed up whether they should be kept imperfect or deleted. What are these standard flow charts? I haven't come across them. You could request a third opinion, but in my experience they are unhelpful.

Problems I get with these things are either about clarity or about POV, clarity has always been resolved before but POV dispute is much harder due to the nature of these things dealing in logic versus opinion. - Grumpyyoungman01 07:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Nobody else seems to be bothered by these, so maybe it's just me. One thing I don't like is that they are read from bottom to top. And, in this particular case, they only cover one case of false dichotomy, and not the most common case. The most common case, it seems to me, is "Either A or B", "A is obviously bad", "Therefore B". Rick Norwood 14:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Monotheism?

Can it be said that monotheistic or Abrahamic religions can be reduced to a collection of false dichotomies? All they consist of is the "this or that" discourse. Le Anh-Huy 11:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

It is true, monotheistic beliefs automatically demonify any other deity/s or god/s without question or proper research, but it also happens with any other belief system mono or polytheistic and in non religious contexts; the present information highlights every aspect of false dilemma in a general manner. Plus some viewers might vandalize, its better to mention religious details the least possible in non religious articles. Bvazq 16:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

examples

In looking for examples, I chose one from a "liberal" blog and one from a "conservative" blog. It turned out, of course, that to a conservative they were both too liberal and to a liberal they were both too conservative, which just goes to show that where right and left lie depend entirely on which way you're facing.

On the other hand, since most practical examples of false dilemmas that I see today are about politics, I'm not sure a ban on political examples is practical. I'll try to come up with a couple that clearly represent both viewpoints, both the right viewpoint and the wrong viewpoint. Rick Norwood 12:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

spelling

Thank you, 90.241.29.99 . Rick Norwood 17:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

new comment

I came for information regarding logic, not politics. Please change the examples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.173.192.26 (talk) 22:00, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

There are those who think that education should be bloodless, and that examples of logic should be limited to statements about Socrates and mortals. In fact, logic is a living discipline, and it is reasonable to apply it to current events, though admittedly that rarely happens. The examples given here include false dilemmas by a Republican, by a Democrat, and by an Independent, and an example of black and white thinking from the UK. The biggest problem with these examples is that three out of four are from the US. Instead of deleting the examples, why not find better ones, especially examples from outside the US. Rick Norwood 12:47, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

24.18.213.117 has put an NPOV tag on the article, presumably prefering to complain about the examples rather than to suggest better ones. I would like to see some indication of what sort of examples 24.18.213.117 would find acceptable. Rick Norwood 12:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

My definition of black and white.

When I use this term I do not use it to mean that only one view is "right" and one view is "wrong" I use it to mean that some views are only favorable that is that they either have a possitive outcome to me or a negative outcome to me. There is no such thing a neutral action as in there is no action that does not affect something, an action either has a possitive or negative effect on something, depedending on your views on what possitive and negative is. Example: an action such as the act person walking in a street in the other side of the world is "positive " because it causes no harm to me; the benefit being that this persons action does not harm me in any way, the is no negative action. I guess that by grey people(and by people I mean most people not including me) do not mean "neutral" or an action that has possitive or negative effect, by "grey" they mean it is something that ultimately do not care about or something that has no effect on them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.96.39.250 (talk) 00:56, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

When I use this term I do not use it to mean that only one view is "right" and one view is "wrong" I use it to mean that some views are only favorable that is that they either have a possitive outcome to me or a negative outcome to me.

There is no such thing a neutral action as in there is no action that does not affect something, an action either has a possitive or negative effect on something, depedending on your views on what possitive and negative is. Example: an action such as the act person walking in a street in the other side of the world is "positive " because it causes no harm to me; the benefit being that this persons action does not harm me in any way, the is no negative action.

I guess that by grey people(and by people I mean most people not including me) do not mean "neutral" or an action that has possitive or negative effect, by "grey" they mean it is something that ultimately do not care about or something that has no effect on them.

--67.96.39.250 (talk) 00:58, 14 December 2007 (UTC)