Talk:Canadian English

Dialect surveys

I think it is great to see this page coming together with proper academic sources, linguistic analyses, etc. Clearly a group of dedicated people spent a lot of time making this happen, and if I have the *right* to congratulate you (obligatory nod to self-effacing Canadian politesse), then I do. I might add that reigning in some of the more abstruse digressions (The Chinook lexicon and Jamaican-Torontonian slang among them), all without references, has done a lot to improve this piece.

I'm not aware if anyone else has posted these links, but here are the results of a major Canadian and American dialect survey, which should assist with entries on pronunciation and lexical items, if anyone’s interested. —Muckapædia 15^e mai 2007, 23h45 (UTC+0900) 머크패저 TALK/ CONTRIBS

Slang

Slang varies from region to region, and era to era. In a day or so I am going to removed any unsourced slang words. Please find a citation for words to be kept discussing its meaning in relation to Canadian English, not simply a citation using the word(per WP:NEO). ^High_InBC^{(Need help? Ask me)} 13:27, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks User:JackLumber for finding citations for those words. ^(H) 22:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm curious, the pronunciation of one word that has me stand out as a "Canadian" every time to Americans (at least in Seattle) is the word "about", and it's not mentioned here. They say abOUT we say AbOUt.

Yes, it's mentioned, under "Phonology and Pronunciation"; it's called Canadian raising. ---The user formerly known as JackLumber 23:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Other Canadian / American word usage differences I've noticed after living in the US for 5 years: Garbarator --> Use: InSinkErator Kraft Dinner --> Use: Kraft Macaroni and Cheese (as branded in the US) Porrige --> Use: Oatmeal (porrige is considered a quaint) Bank Routing Number --> Use: ABA Bank Transit Number Constable (Police / RCMP) --> Use: Officer

Innu and Inuit

I don't think Innu is the same thing as Inuit. Inuit and Eskimo, on the other hand, are the same (but Eskimo is regarded as a slightly derogatory term).

I was going to change it, but I don't feel 100% confident. Could someone please look into it? --Caixiaohui 20:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I removed " and Innu to refer to the various bands of native peoples of the north who are more commonly known as Inuit, Eskimo, or Esquimault." from the article as Innu is a word in the Innu's language and not a government invented word as claimed. It also does not have the meaning this sentence claims. Rmhermen 19:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The Innu are a First Nation in Quebec and Labrador, who were historically referred to as Montagnais or Naskapi. You're correct that they aren't the same thing as the Inuit. Bearcat 22:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Curb and Kerb

Curb and kerb are both words in British English; they are pronounced the same but have different meanings.--80.177.205.209 19:35, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I have noticed in the main page that it implies Canada follows the U.S. in the single usage of 'curb', which is entirely misleading , not to mention incorrect! Lost Girls DiaryLost Girls Diary 19:27, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Phonology and Pronunciation

Could someone please add some real-world examples for non-linguists (e.g, "/u/ is fronted after coronals", etc.) What do these things mean? What is tense? What is a velar stop? This article would be a lot more accessible with some examples that an average high school student could understand. Also, regarding Canadian raising, the example that most people (at least in the U.S.) can relate to the unique pronunciations of words like "about" and "again", yet these are not given as examples.Diego Gravez 16:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I moved your comment to the bottom of the page. That's where new topics typically get listed. :)

Anyways, I can definitely agree that it's frustrating to see 'real' pronunciation guides when I have to believe that the vast majority of readers couldn't possibly get any use out of them.

But, as far as "about" and "again"... I'm not sure what you mean. Especially with "again"? As far as "about" is concerned, I reeeally hope you don't mean canadians saying it, "aboot". Because, in addition to being canadian myself, I've yet to meet a canadian from Alberta, British Columbia, Ontario, or Newfoundland who says "aboot", or who even speaks with a stereotypical "canadian accent". I'm sure somewhere they do that, but I have no clue where, and it really isn't what I'd call, "Canadian English". Bladestorm 17:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps as a Canadian you cannot hear the difference between the American and Canadian pronunciation of "about" (and other "out" words), but all I need to do is watch CBC for about 2 minutes to hear several examples of it (it seems particularly pronounced in Ontario). It doesn't sound exactly like "aboot", but somewhere between the American "out", "ite", "ote", and "oot". Trust me, the Candian pronunciation of "about" sounds peculiar to American ears, and is usually a dead giveaway that someone is Canadian. However, I have noticed that some people from Eastern Virginia in the U.S. pronounce "about" similiarly to Canadians (listen to Pat Robertson for an example).

When I hear a Candian (excluding my mother from New Brunswick) say the word "again" (or against), it sounds much closer to the British pronunciation than the American pronunciation (i.e., a-GAYN (Canadian) vs. a-GEN (American).Diego Gravez 17:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, again as "a gain" is common in Canada, but I don't know if it's more common than a-GEN. In Britain, "a gain" is also common, but most Britons say a-GEN. That aside, yes, you are totally right. The section on pronunciation is obscure. ---The user formerly known as JackLumber 23:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

As an Albertan, I still haven't heard anyone locally say aboot. Most people I've spoken to think of it as an American thing actually. Over here it usually sounds like "ab-awt" or "ub-out" although I've considered they might have heard "aboot" from someone with a French or Maritimes accent? I've found pronunciations out West usually sound the same as midwestern American English... A lot of people over here like to laugh at American stereotypes about Canadians, but the whole "aboot" thing has always been a mystery. Fuchikoma 21:18, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

No it's not really "aboot"--that's just an exaggeration. Many Canadians pronounce "about" as [@bVU?] (the nucleus of the diphthong is "uh"), whereas in most regions of the US, (the Southwest for example), about has the same diphthong as in "ow". Most Canadians pronounce the start of the diphthong differently. Robyn Wright 03:30, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I have noticed that most Canadians pronounce "herb" with a silent "h", but do so believing that this is the British pronunciation, while it is actually American. Similarly, as far as I can tell, most Canadians seem to pronounce the first syllable of "envelope" and "envoy" as the Americans do (i.e. with a nasal sound like the French word "en") in the belief that this is the British pronunciation (although the British pronounce it with a short e sound rhyming with "ten"). Is there a linguistic term for a conscious preference in pronunciation which is based on a misunderstanding? Graves65.94.52.100 15:10, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that most Canadians say /ɚb/. Remember: regional variation is enormous in Canada. However, this h-less pronunciation is actually an archaic British feature, no longer found in Britain but standard in the U.S. As for envelope, both ENvelope and ONvelope are acceptable in both UK and U.S. AFAIK. ---The user formerly known as JackLumber 18:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I, who am a Canadian speaker, have never heard any one say it as aboot{with a schwa before the oot}. Everyone I know says a-buh-oot. User:Low German —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.101.234.193 (talk) 20:14, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

"aboot" is a regionalized Ontario pronunciation AFAIK. Some parallels will be heard in Nfld and the maritimes. If you're suggesting a 3 syllable pronunciation "a-buh-oot", Can't localize that, the common pronunciation is "a-bowt" with the ow sounding like the exclamation when your hurt yourself, but very clipped, i.e., shorter time to say. Fremte 03:08, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

No, "aboot" is not a region Ontario pronunciation at all. It is simply an exaggeration of what people that speak dialects that do not possess Canadian raising (e.g. the nucleus of diphthongs are raised before consonants such as p, t, k, f, s, th, ch, sh) hear when they hear a word such as "about" pronounced by a dialect that does have Canadian raising. Robyn Wright 03:39, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

People! Let me get this straight. To my American ears, Canadian about sounds a lot like a boat as pronounced by an Englishman. Jack^(Lumber) 22:36, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The and Thee

I have noticed the further west one goes in Canada, the more people tend to differentiate less between when one is supposed to pronounce a word 'the' or 'thee'. For instance: The ocean, is normally promounced 'thee ocean', but go out west and you hear 'the ocean' with the clumsy clipped 'the'. This also occurs in Britain too, but usually in the less well educated, or simply careless speakers.

As in that song by that Jamaican kid, "I feel like I'm drownin' in da ocean..." Jack^(Lumber) 22:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually I'm fairly certain this is a quality of a certain Miramichi accent in New Brunswick, and possibly other areas of the Maritimes as well. I wouldn't necessarily label it Western quite yet... - BalthCat (talk) 07:49, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

These ones

I'm a newcomer to Canada (having lived in the U.S. before this) and find that "these ones" (often in combination with pointing out just which ones are meant) seems common in lower British Columbia, at least in speech. (In the U.S., my experience is that this locution is rarely used except by very young kids, say younger than five.) Is this usage of "these ones" common in much of Canada, or only in SW BC ? Is this locution also acceptable in written English here? Thanks. Daqu 01:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what you mean, to be honest. What are "these ones"? It sounds like a euphemism for something naughty... - BalthCat 05:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the user means the phrase "these ones" as opposed to "these". For example, "I'm going to take these ones" as opposed to "I'll take these." But yeah, I find myself saying "these ones" as well. Pandacomics 18:56, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, "the user" did mean "these ones" used in lieu of "these" [while indicating which ones are intended]. Would appreciate learning more about when and where this locution is common/accepted in speech/writing in Canada.Daqu 06:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

This construction is also found in British English, but only occasionally and chiefly in speech. In the Cambridge International Corpus, these ones shows up 7.2 times per 10 million words in British texts and 0.6 in American texts; curiously, the frequencies of the phrase those ones are closer---British 4.8, American 3.2. I ain't got no Canadian data, sorry. ---The user formerly known as JackLumber 18:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

As an aside, if you search the entire text of the Oxford English Dictionary, the only instance of these ones you're going to get is American---a citation from The Young Manhood of Studs Lonigan by James Thomas Farrell: "I know they ain't loaded. But use these ones. Them damn things is jinxed!" (s.v. jinx, verb.) It ain't exactly Standard English anyways... ---The user formerly known as JackLumber 19:00, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Italian/Jewish English in Montreal

I remember watching a documentary a few years ago on Canadian English that had a segment on the unique accents the anglophone Jewish and Italian communities had in Montreal. Does anyone have any information on these dialects? --Lesouris 11:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

This documentary, perhaps? On the CBC, of all places ;-) : http://www.cbc.ca/canadianexperience/talkingcanadian/ Toddsschneider 13:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes that's the one thanks ;D --Lesouris 01:53, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I, who am a Canadian, have never heard a Canadian say about as aboot{with a schwa before the oo}. Everyone I know says it as a-buh-oot. User:Low German —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.101.234.193 (talk) 20:10, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

"Melk"

The word "milk" is often pronounced like "melk". It's kind of like the Western U.S. This should be added. 208.104.45.20 21:10, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

It's under "phonology and pronunciation"---Canadian Shift: "the /ɪ/ in bit then shifts to the [ɛ] in bet." That section needs to be clarified, though. Jack^(Lumber) 14:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually that is not really the Canadian shift. /mIlk/ and /mElk/ exist side by side as variations on the pronunciation of "milk" all throughout North America (even in places without the Canadian or California vowel shift). It's similar to the catch vs. ketch for "catch", or route vs. root for "route". Usually an individual has one or the other--usually neither one dominates in any region--it's completely dependent on ones personal speech patterns. Robyn Wright 03:44, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Pencil crayons

Is this really a distinctive Canadianism? The term is widespread in the UK, I think, as well. (It's certainly what I used to call them.....) --RFBailey 02:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Chesterfield

As a Canadian from Alberta I am a bit puzzled at the section that states that a chesterfield is "a common term for any couch or sofa in Canada." I protest this given my own personal experience, as "couch" (followed closely by "sofa") is by far and a way the most universal term used to denote the said piece of furniture. Furthermore, the use of "chesterfield" is exceedingly rare and is at best used only as a form of humorous imitation of some posh British dialect or accent. I concede to the possibility that this is only the case in Alberta, but having lived in Ontario for nine years and having frequently visited British Colombia I can also attest to the same practically absent usage of "chesterfield" in those locations as well. The first reference used for the statement in the article links to a blank search page at the Oxford University Press website, which is obviously quite useless as a source, and the second reference lists a definition from an American online dictionary. While the latter in itself may be a credible source generally speaking, it is written from an American point of view and for an American readership, which does not lend itself to credibility as a source of information on Canadian English (as in the case of the presumed constant usage of "eh" or universal pronunciation of about as "a-boot"). I would ask that this statement be revised so as to place emphasis on its previous common usage and the modern replacements of "couch" and "sofa" for all generations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrolmanno9 (talk • contribs) 18:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

There's a text box on the Oxford page; just type in chesterfield. The article also states that this word is "largely in decline." According to the NARVS (Boberg 2006), it's most common in ON (excluding Toronto), BC, and NF, and it's fairly rare in QC and the prairie provinces, where couch appears to be the norm. No serious American source says that Canadians pronounce about as "a boot"; rather, "a boot" is what many Americans *perceive* it to be---if they don't listen carefully. Jack^(Lumber) 19:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

It's my understanding that this is a word from a generation or two ago, and more in certain regions than others. I grew up in BC, and my Montrealer mother, in addition to other people, use the word chesterfield. moink (talk) 06:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Saskatchewan Slang

I've lived in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan for my whole life and I have never heard slough as a term for underwear. Also, street hockey is used more often than shinny.

As for slang in general, I have never heard "rubber" being used with the meaning "eraser". I've never heard "tin" on it's own to describe a can. Long or otherwise. Tin can, I have heard. As for "eh?" On my trips to the States, I found that Americans say it much more frequently than anyone around here does. So I don't really understand how it's a "distinctive" Canadian phrase. Not to mention my friend in England says that it's used there to the extent that stereotypes of Canadians use it. Tuques rarely have pompoms on the top. (Unless you're 10 and a girl)

I'd also like to point out that Canuck, hoser, and keener are never used in everyday conversation, though they are Canadian words.

I understand that it's possible these are used more elsewhere in Canada, in small towns, or among older residents, but I'd suggest some sort of acknowledgement on the page that some of these may be extremely out of date. Like I said, my entire life has been spent in Saskatchewan, and I haven't even heard a word that's supposed to be specifically used in my province.

Jessicahalo (talk) 08:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

You've been "Corner Gassed", by which I mean assumptions/impositions about Saskatchewanian Canadians as defined/imagined by Torontonian Canadians apply; the use of shinny, hoser, keener etc are explicitly Ontarian by usage and meaning but we're all expected to have them applied to us (I'm from BC, currently living in the Maritimes), just like we're all supposed to like and even emulate Red Green. On This Hour has Twenty Two Minutes there's a regular shtick where the regular cast (including Shaun Pajandrum or whatever his name is) put on macs and toques and do the Bill'n'Ted thing with thick Maritimes vs Hamilton accents, as if they were representative Saskatchewanians. So I agree with your objections; actual Saskatchewanisms probably exist, but citing them is difficult as linguists and newzies ignore local culture/identity in Canada in favour of telling us we're all hosers etc. Unless there's a specfic cite of keener or hoser being used by Saskatchewanians as unique identifiers of Saskatchewanian speech, theyshould be dropped.Skookum1 (talk) 22:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Abbreviation

The standard abbreviation is CanE (or CanEng), not CaE, which is ambiguous. See e.g. [1], [2]. Searching books.google.com for "cae" "Canadian English" gives zero results.[3] Jack^(Lumber) 23:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou for that information. I'm still unsure that 'CanE' should be used in the article over 'Canadian English', but thats up to you regular users and I'm not going to quibble over such a minor issue. 203.94.135.134 (talk) 00:27, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

McArthur regularly uses abbreviations; the advantage of using them is apparent in articles like American and British English differences. Then again, there is no obvious reason to substitute "CanE" for "Canadian English", since the phrase occurs only 11 times. So it's 6 of one and 12⁄2 of the other. You ain't ever gonna become a regular, are you, 203? Jack^(Lumber) 19:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

That's fine for other authors to do that in their "own" work, but Wikipedia is a collaboration based on concensus. I just thought the abbreviations looked unprofessional and were unwarranted, that's all, no biggie. I suppose I am already a regular user of sorts, as I do make edits to Wikipedia at least once a week. Cheers. 203.94.135.134 (talk) 22:23, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Z

I'm not sure that there remains much of a "stigmatization" of the use of zee in Canada, really. Or perhaps it is more of a growing acceptance. I know for myself, I use 'zee' all the time and no one says boo about it. Maybe it has something to do with people around my age growing up on a mix of Sesame Streets which alternately endorsed one pronounciation over the other, and older people who still said 'zee'. I don't know for certain, I'm hardly a linguist. And the leftenant thing is strange, because the only people I know who say it that way are either political, military or media, and the only reason they say it that way is official government policy on pronounciation having drilled it into them. Howa0082 (talk) 16:33, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

We have a reputable source listed for the zed/zee situation. I actually find your personal experience interesting but it has no bearing on what is stated in the article. DoubleBlue (Talk) 16:58, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

LC for liquor commission? where?

section 6.7.2 contains this sentence: "The initialism LC (Liquor Commission) refers to a government-operated liquor store." This is probably only in one province of just a few. It's LBS in Sask, and sometimes euphemized to "Little Book Store". Someone please add the detail for the LC please, or maybe should take it out. Fremte (talk) 00:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Good point. I know it's a Nova Scotia expression thenslc.com and it's possible it's a Maritime expression more generally but I have no sources for it. There does seem to be a lot of provinces that use the phrase "liquor commission", however. google Liquor+Commission DoubleBlue (Talk) 01:18, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This kind of thing varies greatly by province. In Alberta (way back before private liquor stores were allowed), ALCB stores were usually called "the vendor's". In Saskatchewan, I think the common term is "the board store". I don't know in which provinces "LC" is used, but it's certainly not Saskatchewan and Alberta. Indefatigable (talk) 20:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)